people who do not like the EU do not want it to exist or have any powers.
and other people who do not like the EU want it to have a more democratic system which would give it more powers.
Do you think there can be any reform at all of the EU in the next few years?
>>69665371
I like that map. It's basically Roman Empire on one side and Barbarians on the other.
>>69665371
There is only one good "EU" in my eyes:
A chapter in a history book that is titled "what to never ever do in Europe".
>>69665650
>A chapter in a history book that is titled "what to never ever do in Europe".
>people who do not like the EU do not want it to exist or have any powers.
And what then? So you dismantle the EU, close borders again, all people in Europe work in their home countries, tariffs are errected, banks have to be regulated in all states they are working, when you take your mobile phone into another EU state, that country can charge you whatever it wants, Italians have the Lira, the Germans the Deutsch Mark etc., financial markets have again been shifted back to the US market because the Euro market doesn't exist any more etc.
>>69666202
>when you take your mobile phone into another EU state
This is the case with all mobile providers excepting 3 I believe.
EU legislation to do away with this is slated for inauguration in the coming year.
Europe needs a single free market zone where companies can interact and sell things.
This free market doesn't need a political union, doesn't need a monetary union, or any sort of council. The only governing body necessary is a financial police to prevent fraud. Countries which join the single market will have to relinquish tariffs and work towards an open border policy (in terms of borders shared with other economic partner countries, not to the world in general).
I don't like the idea of a financial market (i.e. stocks) because it balloons to an incredible size and then the real economy suffers from it. Fuck fiat currencies & fuck investment bullshit. Money shouldn't degrade over time.
>>69666445
>Europe needs a single free market zone where companies can interact and sell things.
But that is the EU, m8. If you kill the EU, then you need to just create a new EU once again trying to create a single free market zone.
Creating a single market is always requiring political union and yes, a monetary union. If you do not have a monetary union, you can, for instance, not have a capital markets union or banking union etc., which make up a big part of a modern single market economy.
I rather reform the EU than kill it, just to create a new EU with the same problems we had 30 years ago PLUS the current problems.
>>69666692
>Creating a single market is always requiring political union and yes, a monetary union.
lol no it doesn't.
You give all the member countries a rulebook that the companies inside the countries should read if they want to use the shared market. This is called a "free trade agreement".
If money really becomes an issue, and with 30 different countries in Europe it probably will, the best idea is to have a gold-backed "international currency" to use as an intermediary medium to make it easier to buy and sell shit on the shared marketplace.
The governing force here just makes sure that international contracts are upheld and that there is no fraud on the marketplace. Done. No retarded parliament needed, no federal system, no parliament, no 15,000 lobbyists in Brussels.
>banking union
As if I want that. Centralized banking = garbage.
>PLUS the current problems.
The current problems are a result of the current union. They won't carry over with someone like me in charge, believe me.
What I want to see in Europe is a large trade zone, not a federalized united states of Europe.
>>69666692
Why a non german would want a free market and no control for border and money.
It's ridiculous
>>69666692
EU is not a democracy. It will not reform.
The plan is for political union, a federal superstate. The wheels are already turning.
>If the EU doesn't regulate breathing, how will people know how to breathe!
Fuck the EU coming straight from the underground.
European balkinization best day of my life.
>>69666997
>>69666994
>yfw Germans are indoctrinated to defend this EU
Man.
They don't even see the problem with Germany being inside the Euro. The Euro murders all the other economies in the EU because of how much more powerful Germany's economy is. If we are really forced to have a "monetary union" then Germany needs to exit and establish the Deutsche Mark so that we even have a fighting chance. Even France is basically finished off and they are the second largest EU economy inside the Euro.
>>69667047
>European balkinization best day of my life.
Far from it.
>>69666973
So essentially you do not want a single market in Europe. Why not just say it? If you want a simple free trade zone such as NAFTA, that is one thing, but don't demand a single market economy then.
A single unified market is one in which non-tariff barriers are to the utmost killed. This is a completely different animal than a free trade zone which just focuses on eliminating tariffs and having some streamlining and rules for allowing to comply with non-tariff barriers.
>>69666997
>The plan is for political union, a federal superstate. The wheels are already turning.
I am all for that. But the wheels are unfortunately not turning.
We have people who say "uh uh, EU not democratic, I hate that" and then people say "uh uh, EU has too much power, I hate that" - and sometimes it is the exact same person saying both, even though they are contradicting each other.
>>69667098
Yes basicaly the main problem of the economic e.u is germany
>>69667249
>I am all for that. But the wheels are unfortunately not turning.
Abandon thread jew shill detected.
>>69667098
>Far from it.
EU breakup at least?
>>69665371
Proud to be Germanic master race
>>69667098
>The Euro murders all the other economies in the EU because of how much more powerful Germany's economy is
And yet Germany pretty much has no trade surplus with other Eurozone countries any more as of 2015.
And Ireland has 7% growth. I assume this is all just Irish propaganda?
>>69667098
>If we are really forced to have a "monetary union" then Germany needs to exit and establish the Deutsche Mark
There already is a monetary union, silly. It is called the Eurozone. And as I just said above, Germany has pretty much NO trade surplus with the Eurozone any more.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/3/da94ec98-9e71-11e5-b45d-4812f209f861.html#axzz44efr7ASr
>>69665371
>Do you think there can be any reform at all of the EU in the next few years?
Nope, but it won't be needeed.
The continent is in deep crisis: euro crisis, unemployent in the south, migrants, terrorism, russia/ukraine war. These are grave interests, they cannot be ignored, and the EU is completely inept in all of that, meaning nothing coming from Brussels can solve any of this. Which means national governments will be forced to disregard Brussels and carry out national policies to tackle these issues. There will be regional coalitions of countryies with shared interes like the V4, Baltics, scandinavians, etc and Brussels will whine and complain but it will be ignored. The EU will evolve into a single market + some common defence/technology projects (MBDA/ESA) + a few common policies here and there. Shengen will die, so will EU expansion and Euro expansion. The central in Brusels will be mostly UN-tier irrelevant because they can't even bring tiny Hungary in line, what are they going to do if the French, Italians or Spaniards will decide to have their own policies?
>>69667191
>free trade pact between European countries
>single market
I don't know what sort of government indoctrination you had but please read my words.
I want a single market that doesn't require all the bullshit in Brussels. It's easily done and they are often called "free trade pacts".
Usually governed (when necessary) by the nations who are members participating in summits to amend the rules when necessary. This happens rarely though because the first revision of the free trade agreement should be good enough to last at least a decade.
> demand a single market economy then.
I didn't.
I said those countries (and companies inside them) who wish to trade freely can enter the free trade area and be active inside it.
>non-tariff barriers are to the utmost killed.
What is this garbled mess of words supposed to mean?
A free trade zone is essentially a shared market between the member countries.
The same rules apply on that market: don't be fraudulent and don't mess around with the reserve currency.
>>69667329
>EU breakup at least?
If this happens it isn't a balkanization. Your country still has at least 20 individual European national embassies in it. We still represent ourselves individually. The EU (thankfully) hasn't taken over the diplomacy aspect yet. I assume that if we don't stop them in 10 years time they will have the "Diplomacy Reform" where they federalize all of this into just 1 big EU embassy in each country we cooperate with.
>>69667418
>EU is completely inept in all of that, meaning nothing coming from Brussels can solve any of this.
Because people who opppose the EU do not want to give them any authority to solve anything.
>>69667418
>Which means national governments will be forced to disregard Brussels and carry out national policies to tackle these issues.
What do you mean "disregard"? All the things you have listed (unemployment, migrants, terrorism, russia/ukraine war etc.) are things that ONLY EU states are allowed to handle, the EU has no authority in any of these.
>>69667418
>The EU will evolve into a single market + some common defence/technology projects (MBDA/ESA) + a few common policies here and there.
That is the current situation. Not sure how that is an "evolution".
>>69667418
>Shengen will die, so will EU expansion and Euro expansion.
And why should that be? Why have the Baltic countries joined the Euro in the last years? Why are Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia etc. all gearing up to join the Eurozone. Yes, Poland is waiting to start the Euro adoption process, but it is going to happen eventually, be it 2025 or 2030, it will happen if the EU exists then.
>>69667408
Germany is the fist and by far the fist european exportator in eu and outside, you dominate the market in valor.
Ireland growth because they act like opportunist welcoming every multi-national company who don't want to pay taxe in eu country
>>69667567
Look Fritz, I don't care how you do it.
Just remove EU one way or the other so the whole continent doesn't become more of a dump.
Good luck senpai.
>>69667408
>And Ireland has 7% growth.
Ireland has really good laws for companies to incorporate there so they don't pay lots of taxes here. Ireland still hasn't recovered from 2008 and is seriously behind the rest of the EU core countries.
Besides, the current """economic growth""" in the EU doesn't come from the real economy, it comes from backwards jewish tricks in the finance sector.
>Germany has pretty much NO trade surplus with the Eurozone any more.
Thank god it doesn't. It really hindered the rest of the Euro countries from recovering. The coming period of QE in the EU will solve this issue...for some time.
Monetary unions are problematic in that the Euro is worth a different amount depending on where you go in the Eurozone. In Germany the Euro is undervalued by 20%.
>>69667641
The EU has removed itself...in the future.
You see their policies all have a timer on them. When this union was formally erected 10 years ago they already pulled out a bunch of stops to force it into power. The central bank is running a monetary policy which will result in hyperinflation. This union was doomed from the day it was declared.
>>69667567
>I want a single market that doesn't require all the bullshit in Brussels. It's easily done and they are often called "free trade pacts".
Please read up on what a single market is. You cannot achieve it with "free trade pacts". Impossible.
----
A single market (sometimes called 'internal market') allows for people, goods, services and capital to move around a union as freely as they do within a single country – instead of being obstructed by national borders and barriers as they were in the past. Citizens can study, live, shop, work and retire in any member state.[3] Consumers enjoy a vast array of products from all member states and businesses have unrestricted access to more consumers. A single market is commonly described as "frontier-free".[2] However, several barriers remain such as differences in national tax systems, differences in parts of the services sector and different requirements for e-commerce. In addition separate national markets still exist for financial services, energy and transport. The European Union is the only economic union whose objective is "completing the single market."
----
The actual new goal of the EU is a single unified market:
----
A completed, unified market usually refers to the complete removal of barriers and integration of the remaining national markets. Complete economic integration can be seen within many countries, whether in a single unitary state with a single set of economic rules, or among the members of a strong national federation. For example, the sovereign states of the United States do to some degree have different local economic regulations (e.g. licensing requirements for professionals, rules for utilities and insurance, consumer safety laws, environmental laws, minimum wage) and taxes, but are subordinate to the federal government on any matter of interstate commerce the national government chooses to assert itself. Movement of people and goods among the states is unrestricted and without tariffs.
>>69667617
You just give visa to milions of turc, and with shengen we are all in the same position, we need do stop german.
And remember what soviet use to say,communism don't work, we need more communism, stop with this union
>>69667640
>Germany is the fist and by far the fist european exportator in eu and outside, you dominate the market in valor.
And yet the actual numbers show that Germany only has a 2% of GDP trade surplus with the Eurozone. That trade surplus has imploded in the last few years as manufacturing has shifted to low cost countries in the East.
>>69667759
>Ireland still hasn't recovered from 2008 and is seriously behind the rest of the EU core countries.
Bullshit.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/17/news/economy/st-patricks-day-ireland-economy-china/
The path to success sounds simple: Ireland quickly wrote off its bad bank debt and made sweeping financial reforms, says Schulz.
The government cut costs and focused on growing exports. That turned out to be a shrewd move as the euro has fallen in value, allowing Irish (and other European) exports to thrive.
The reform measures weren't always popular. Despite Ireland's "Celtic tiger" growth miracle, Prime Minister Enda Kenny is struggling to hold onto power after his party lost seats in the latest election.
But as many countries, especially in Europe, struggle to jumpstart growth again, Ireland is a symbol of hope.
>>69667249
how does
>EU is not democratic
>EU has too much power
contradict each other?
>>69667617
>>69667617
>Because people who opppose the EU do not want to give them any authority to solve anything
No, moron, it's because you can't have a single policy for the same continent with all its diverse countries. How can you have the same security policy for France and Latvia, where Russia is reasonably concidered the main conventional war threat for the balts and the French (also reasonably) see it as a business and politics partner and don't really fear Russian tanks rolling into Paris? The french are afraid of ISIS, muslim ghettos and illegal African migrants, which is a non-issue in Latvia.
How can you have the same economic policies for countries with such diverse economies, wages, levels of unemployment?
"More Europe" is literally mental retardation.
>What do you mean "disregard"?
I mean ignore Brusels, carry out your own policies settled on national level and ask "What are you gonna do about it, faggot?" just like Orban.
>That is the current situation. Not sure how that is an "evolution".
No schengen, Greece may leave the Euro, no more "more Europe"
>>69667954
If you create a democratic EU, it also means that you actually hand elected people running the EU power. Because right now, the people in the institutions have no power, which is undemocratic, because the decisions are made behind closed doors by intransparent meetings of appointed commissioners of the EU states... and by EU state government representatives in the EU Council.
So, in order to make the EU more democratic, you actually have to hand over powers to directly elected representatives of the EU which then also make the decisions... rather than unelected EU state government appointees doing so behind closed doors.
>>69667782
This reads more like the "economy too big to fail" scheme.
We don't need all the markets interconnected as that introduces unnecessary bureaucracy.
The European Union is a cancer that evolved on the back off an "economic community" which itself was an embellished free trade agreement.
>wrote off its bad bank debt
Sounds like it sold bonds to the ECB. It just shifted the loaning party, not actually solved the problem.
Ireland's GDP is floating up and down around the 220 bn € mark. Growth percentage doesn't mean much other than "look its going up".
Ireland still has around 40-50 bn € of GDP to make up until it will hit the 270 bn € mark it had in 2008.
>>69668057
>No, moron, it's because you can't have a single policy for the same continent with all its diverse countries.
So you think a car should have different exhaust standards in all 28 EU states, so car producers have to comply with 28 different sets of laws?
Or banks have to be regulated by applying 28 different sets of laws and have to answer to 28 different regulators as in the past?
Or telecom companies cannot access all EU states because of national laws?
Or a start-up company in Sweden cannot get an investment from Germany because Swedish law has restrictions on capital transfers?
Or France using state money to prop up socialist failing companies in order to dump cheap steel into the market, thus requiring other EU states to do the same, costing money and killing the free market?
If you think all the above is ridiculous stuff, well guess what - these issues have been at the core of what the EU is doing and has taken decades to resolve and is still being worked on.
>>69668057
>How can you have the same security policy for France and Latvia
Security policy is NOT part of the core EU policies. You do not need it, but it makes a shitload of sense to have a common approach to security - look at the ISIS attacks. Yes, Latvia may not have ISIS attacks right now, but what if there is an ISIS guy returing to Latvia and Germany knows about it. Should it really continue to be as now that Germany says "uh, not my problem, let the ISIS guy go to Latvia, we are not allowed to tell them he is coming?"
Poland is also a target for extremist Muslim terrorists. You may think "no way", but terrorists think "yes way". You guys are NATO, so you are a target.
>>69668166
>We don't need all the markets interconnected as that introduces unnecessary bureaucracy.
So you are seriously saying that having 28 different legal systems for bananas, for cars, for banks, for insurance companies, for manufacturing, for roads, for trains, for investments, etc. is LESS bureaucratic than one single system?
Seriously?
>>69668166
>Ireland's GDP is floating up and down around the 220 bn € mark. Growth percentage doesn't mean much other than "look its going up".
You like stupid or something? What in 7% growth do you not understand?
>>69668072
I don't think you know how the EU actually works.
There is the EU-Parliament, which is elected by a special key, that ensures that small countries get more seats compared to countries with a bigger population.
There is no "one man=one vote". That is undemocratic.
There is the EU-Commission, that is not appointed by said undemocratic parliament, but it is the only entity that has the right to bring new initiatives into parliament. That is undemocratic and the opposite of how national parliaments work.
If you were to hand more power to the EU (look it up, something like 30% of our legislation is actually EU-Guidelines translated to national law), you would need to rectify these imbalances.
That would mean less power for small countries, since a real democracy would be based on one man-one vote, which would favor the big countries.
The countries with small population will not stand for that.
Then there is the issue with a EU-Budget. Essentially the economically strong are the minority, which would enable the economically weak to impose legislation on the strong, draining them of their tax money.
And it goes on... NO ONE WANTS A EU-SUPERSTATE OUTSIDE OF THE GERMAN POLITICAL AND MEDIA ELITE. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.
The french only want german tax payer money, but no further delegation of power to EU, same with all the southerners, the danes, dutch, eastern europeans know that a further integration will only diminish their power. No one wants it, stop dreaming and realize that the future is the nation state and not some alien structure that is only favored by germans who are so riddled with guilt that they can't wait to shed all national symbols and dissolute their country into a guilt-less EU pipe dream.
Man, i was all for an European superstate but then you cucks had to go and import a billion shitskins.
This always happens, starting with Otto III. What is fucking wrong with krauts.
Morons intertwined their economies
Never do this
>>69668650
germany always ruins europe to be honest
theyre the real problem from the start
>>69668535
>what are industry standards
You know what an HDMI cable is right?
The HDMI cable is an ingenious brainchild of lots of technology companies who wanted their products to be interconnectable. They came up with this standardized cable all without the help of a federalized government.
All you need to write into the trade agreement (concerning cars anyway) is that all vehicles traded on the market require exhausts according to whatever industry standard.
Let the industries do the regulating here among eachother. Only step in when their drafted regulations are outside the scope of the government, e.g. if the car industry suddenly wanted to do away with their environmental stuff and make their cars dirty again.
Outside of the EU and Brussels is an entire industry niche where competitors communicate with eachother to create industry standards. Intel and AMD are fierce competitors, yet no other processor manufacturer is allowed to use the X86 processor instruction set (this runs desktop OSes).
>You like stupid or something? What in 7% growth do you not understand?
The fact that foreign money != employment of Irish native citizens.
>>69668744
This time it wasn't the Germans fault. There are scheming international powers at play, similar to the ones that run your country.
>>69668582
>There is no "one man=one vote". That is undemocratic.
Yes, so? That is what I am criticizing.
>>69668582
>There is the EU-Commission, that is not appointed by said undemocratic parliament, but it is the only entity that has the right to bring new initiatives into parliament. That is undemocratic and the opposite of how national parliaments work.
Yes, so? That is what I am critiziing.
>>69668582
>If you were to hand more power to the EU (look it up, something like 30% of our legislation is actually EU-Guidelines translated to national law), you would need to rectify these imbalances.
Yes, you would. Because you would have to elect the EU Commission and that hands over control from the EU state to an ELECTED EU Commission - this is major power transfer from the states to a democratic EU.
>>69668582
>That would mean less power for small countries, since a real democracy would be based on one man-one vote, which would favor the big countries.
No, you can do a hybrid system as the US has. You have the EU Council, you can have TWO EU Council members being directly elected in each country, so big and small states have a say in the Council, while the EU Parliament is elected by one man= one vote.
>>69668582
>Then there is the issue with a EU-Budget. Essentially the economically strong are the minority, which would enable the economically weak to impose legislation on the strong, draining them of their tax money.
Wrong. You can put the reciprocity for contributions into the EU constitutional treaties... or actually just leave it in there.
>>69668582
>NO ONE WANTS A EU-SUPERSTATE OUTSIDE OF THE GERMAN POLITICAL AND MEDIA ELITE. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.
Because people are afraid of having a democratic EU, while still wanting more democracy. It is insane.
>>69668775
>They came up with this standardized cable all without the help of a federalized government.
Do you understand that international industry set standards are one thing, but legal systems are a different one? 95% of the economy is regulated by state authorized legal systems, not by international legal standards. There is no industry agreed standards for the banking or insurance system - of course you can eliminate all regulation, but then you have another banking crisis. You can eliminate all transparency requirements for capital markets, but then you have the problem of 1929 and an unregulated, fraud prone market etc.
>>69668775
>The fact that foreign money != employment of Irish native citizens.
If you read anythinng about the Irish economy, you would know that the recent growth is strongly supported by internal ddemand.
http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/04/01/irelands-central-bank-lifts-gdp-forecast-for-2016/
Recent growth is being driven firmly by domestic demand, the central bank says in its latest economic bulletin. Its chief economist, Gabriel Fagan, said:
The growth outlook is relatively favourable and domestic economic momentum is strong, although there are some risks to the outlook from external factors. The main driver of growth will be the continuing recovery in employment and incomes, although following its very strong growth in recent years, employment growth is projected to gradually moderate over the forecast horizon.
>>69668830
>one man= one vote.
And this is how the EU will collapse into just Germany alone.
No Austrian no matter how leftist or retarded will accept that their vote basically won't matter when overshadowed by a country x10 in electorate.
In a 1 man = 1 vote situation, say you had a parliament where 1 man represented 500,000 people (this in and of itself is ridiculous but whatever):
At 500 million, this means the parliament totals 1000 representatives.
Germany, UK, and France would constitute 165, 129, and 128 (total of 42% of all representatives in this hypothetical parliament). With the current system these three nations comprise 96+74+73 (total of 32% of the 751 representatives in the current parliament).
You see the problems here?
A country like Austria would have 19 representatives in 1000. We de facto have no representation and would get steam rolled in any sort of policy debate.
>>69669078
>No Austrian no matter how leftist or retarded will accept that their vote basically won't matter when overshadowed by a country x10 in electorate.
Not if there are two chambers, the EU Parliament (one man = one vote) and the EU Council (one state = one man).
>>69669078
>You see the problems here?
No, I do not see it. How federal systems with state rights work has been known for ages and works in countless democracies. Look at Germany, look at the US, they are all federal states in which there are state rights and a state chamber where all states are equals and a democratic house in which all people have the same vote.
>>69668979
My point was that the free trade agreement would have to require industries to standardize in order to be allowed to trade their products. Problem mostly solved as the "governance" aspect has been offloaded onto the industries wanting access to the market rather than a novel political union which will grant itself increasing powers and evolve into more than just something for governing economic activity. I wonder when this happened?
>linking shit behind a paywall
I'm not paying to read that.
>relatively favourable and domestic economic momentum is strong
bla bla central bank bullshit.
>employment growth is projected to gradually moderate
They are still 5% points above returning to pre-2008 levels.
It doesn't seem to mention what "domestic demand" means. Incorporating your multinational company in Ireland is still a "domestic business" according to the way EU laws work.
>>69669273
>the EU Parliament (one man = one vote) and the EU Council (one state = one man).
>rebranding the current system by making it worse
wew lad
>How federal systems with state rights work has been known for ages and works in countless democracies.
Except that problems start appearing when the federal level starts to curb rights and become power hungry. The EU Parliament passes over 500 pieces of legislation a year, all of which are well in excess of a hundred pages (most of them in the thousands) so no one bothers to read it all, and then years later we find out what evils are in power.
The federal level isn't supposed to be making this many rules. The federal level is the common denominator with the simplest and most lax laws, not the ones curbing state's rights.
The EU federal system is more like a growing dictatorship and I don't like it, many people don't like it and many more people are starting to realize this.
>>69669273
>Not if there are two chambers, the EU Parliament (one man = one vote) and the EU Council (one state = one man).
But that's a fucking retarded idea. So a Maltese will have over 150 times more representation in the upper house/government than a Brit? The EU even in a best case scenario is a literally demonically evil tyranny. No. It has to go.
>>69665371
The reason why the EU doesn't work is Germany. Kill yourselves and we will become stronger than ever.
>>69666202
I don't see how that's a bad thing. Especially for you, the Euro was really made to cripple the German currency anyway.
>>69669680
>So a Maltese will have over 150 times more representation in the upper house/government than a Brit?
Yes, that is how federal systems work.
You require a DOUBLE majority. Which means the majority of the people's representative in the lower house agree to something, which protects the rights of overall democracy, AND the majority of the states' representative iin the upper house agree to something, which protects the rights of the states.
Or in other words, a lot of small states banding together can block legislation, but they cannot enact it. This is how democracy in a federal system has always worked, desu-senpai.
>>69665371
Flanders is +50% ofcourse, but it's the Walloons who only speak one single language that are dragging us down once again
>>69669619
>The EU Parliament passes over 500 pieces of legislation a year, all of which are well in excess of a hundred pages (most of them in the thousands) so no one bothers to read it all, and then years later we find out what evils are in power.
I have answered the question about federalism above in another post.
As to your claim that the EU passes 500 new legislative proposals per year, each with hundreds of pages, how can this happen if the entirety of EU legilsation and EU regulation only consists of 160,000 pages? Are you saying that the EU each year completely rewrites its entire body of law because 500 * e.g. 300 pages = 150,000?
The truth is, EU legislation is actually quite lean compared to e.g. the US which has 300,000 pages of federal tax code alone... I am not kidding.
so, what does the map mean?
>>69670107
>not seeing the problem with legislation beyond 10,000 pages
jesus christ
Yes. The EU constantly "reforms" itself in order to include either new loopholes, new retarded legislation, or new contradictory laws to beat the competition.
>>69670107
It's enough to destroy our ethnic societies and cultures for the NWO and turn us into a brown slave race for giant capitalists and international bankers. You can literally see this happening before your eyes in our capital cities. And yes, this is the EU's project, even if the negative (or serendipitous for the elites) side effects were unintended. All of this started happening immediately after Maastricht.
>>69670107
germ pls
>>69667256
Your picture is wrong, mate.
>>69670282
>>not seeing the problem with legislation beyond 10,000 pages
Our economy isn't consisting of trading in beer and sheep any more.
Complex economies require larger framework.
Or how are you suggesting we deal e.g. with the fallout from the financial crisis? The EU agreed on a directive on bank resolution and restructuring, which allows EU states and the ECB to "quarantine" banks if they have problems and bail in creditors... this was not the case in 2008 and 2009 and what happened? The states had to bail out banks in order to avoid a collapse of the banking system.
Are you saying we do not need such a directive? You do know the only reason the Heta Asset Resolution AG (formally known as Hypo Alpe Adria) has not imploded yet and gone bankrupt with bankrupcy proceedings etc. going on is because the Austrian state used the regulation implemented from the EU banking resolution and restructuring directive to stay the insolvency proceedings?
Or are you saying you can write such legislation and requirements on a single page?
What about derivatives trading? What about the capital markets union? What about services access across the EU? What about telecoms? What about automotive, venture capital, PE, and yes, fucking bananas and jam?
Industry needs frameworks to function. The question is not whether those frameworks are 10,000 pages or 5,000 pages, the question is whether the frameworks work or are too burdensome or are ineffective.
tfw 40yo this year and have seen with my very own eyes how the EEC/EU has grown into the twisted beast it is toady since 1992/93
One Flag, one nation, one people, one currency, one court of law to rule, govern and judge us all.
The fun hasn't even started yet, the next 20 are going to be very interesting indeed.
>>69670444
>nd turn us into a brown slave race for giant capitalists and international bankers. You can literally see this happening before your eyes in our capital cities.
Doesn't have anything to do with the EU. If the UK government wanted to be less capitalist and less globalist and more "for the small man" or manufacturing, the UK could easily do it. But the UK government doesn't want that. Has nothing to do with the EU.
>>69667852
We gotta bring jobs back from chyna.
>>69666202
And what would be the problem in such a scenario? Look I agree that trade barriers might be a bed idea. Just create a free trade agreement between the European countries that want to adhere and be done with it
>>69670562
>Complex economies require larger framework.
What is the larger framework for the Asian tiger economies? Why don't they need to be integrated into a SEA political union?
>>69670562
>supporting the bail out of a fucking insane fiat currency and a banking system that has lost its mind
Dude...
We should've let it all burn.
>Hypo Alpe Adria
This was yet another banking disaster. We should've let it burn and jailed these people. We jailed 1. They are buying their way out of the courts. This is a sign of a failed judicial system.
We didn't need EU regulation to deal with that bankruptcy as the Hypo bank was an Austrian bank which failed in Austria. Your case isn't strong.
>What about telecoms?
As I said before, this hasn't come to fruition yet. Mobile phones have been around for over 10 years. If they wanted this to be a reality they should've done it a long time ago.
>the question is whether the frameworks work or are too burdensome or are ineffective.
They are currently burdensome and ineffective.
They will only increase in being burdensome and ineffective. The EU is fucked.
You're defending a fiat banking union (which is a singular disaster). You're defending legislation which is so long winded that you cannot understand all of it, not even a group of 100 lawyers can understand it.
>Or are you saying you can write such legislation and requirements on a single page?
Double sided I probably could.
You need simple and conclusive legislation.
Especially for banks. Banks need clear cut rules. Each page of banking legislation = more corruptibility.
>>69670663
>If the UK government wanted to be less capitalist and less globalist and more "for the small man" or manufacturing, the UK could easily do it
No it can't. The EU actively prevents this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35933904
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/30/save-british-steel-state-aid-renationalisation-eu
You are defending the EU using outright lies throughout this thread.
>>69670745
>And what would be the problem in such a scenario?
Lost GDP growth, lost jobs, lost competitiveness in a globalist world, poorer people.
>>69670745
>Just create a free trade agreement between the European countries that want to adhere and be done with it
You do know that the EU is just that? The difference between a "standard free trade zone" and the EU is just that the EU states in the 1980s and 1990s realized that a free trade zone agreement alone doesn't work in a globalist world. If you want more GDP growth, you need a single unified market. And that is how the EU morphed from a free trade zone to a supranational entity with the goal to create a single unified market in the early 1990s.
If Europe had 3 or 4 large countries just as North America, I agree that a free trade zone would probably work to some extent as well as the EU, but it does not. Europe has 40+ countries, 28 of which are in the EU, 3 of which are linked the EU with the EEA or a de-facto EEA link and the rest are bound via partnerships or are in the process of joining.
You cannot have a working, globally competitive economy if you are e.g. Belgium and your regulatory framework and legal system and economy is different to e.g. Germany or France. Any foreign investor would go to France or Germany instead of Belgium if in Belgium it could only access the Belgium market.
>-5%
you can know negative german?
>>69670760
>What is the larger framework for the Asian tiger economies? Why don't they need to be integrated into a SEA political union?
Different situation. There aren't 40 Asian tiger economies and they aren't geographically located close to each other. They are small states (one of which is part of freaking China and another claimed by China) which have carved out a special status in the Asian financial world (HK and Singapore) respectively the Asian and global manufacturing world (SK and Taiwan).
>>69670745
RARE
A
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>>69671032
So what you are advocating is basically the destruction of nation states and our rights to soveregnity just so that you can compete with China or the US?
What's the difference between what you tried to do 75 years ago and what you are trying to do now?
>>69671032
>Lost GDP growth
Who the fuck cares besides criminals?
>lost jobs
People will find other jobs, so it's fine
>lost competitiveness in a globalist world
I think this will boost our competitiveness.
>poorer people
not an argument
>>69670663
>Has nothing to do with the EU.
Yes. It. Does. The EU is predicated on destroying nationality for the sake of supranational federalisation. You think this doesn't have an effect on the nations it governs?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aIAgnGfi3E
I'm not even going to mention free movement of peoples and migrant quotas. And that is before you get into globalist conspiracies.
>>69671209
You will never win an argument against a German who believes in an EU global superpower.
Germany doesn't even have nukes.
Nuclear weapons and Swiss chocolate are the currency of geopolitical power. Not the EU.
>>69671238
>The EU is predicated on destroying nationality for the sake of supranational federalisation
There is only one problem with that. We will be long gone when this shit happens. You should consider voting "yes" on your referendum and be smart.
>>69670938
>We didn't need EU regulation to deal with that bankruptcy as the Hypo bank was an Austrian bank which failed in Austria. Your case isn't strong.
With Carinthia having (originally) 25 billion in guarantees.
And the fact remains, the Austrian state used EU regulation to postpone the insolvency of Heta.
>>69670938
>As I said before, this hasn't come to fruition yet.
You don't know anything about the EU telecoms market, do you? And you haven't been around in the 1990s and 2000s, right? Using a mobile phone outside of your home state in the 1990s was pretty much impossible or prohibitively expensive.
The EU is forming a single European telecoms market, which would be impossible in a mere free trade zone.
>>69670938
>They are currently burdensome and ineffective.
And yet they work. What is your evidence that EU legislation is burdensome and ineffective?
Just as an example, in order to create a European debt issuance program for a company, a company needs 2-3 months in Europe and requires costs of 60-100k Euro Doing the same in the US takes 4-5 months and costs US dollar 1 to 2 million.
So the EU is fucked up, but in this instance it is 2000% more efficient than the US? Explain that.
>>69665631
Its the opposite nowdays.
>>69671163
>Different situation.
No it's not.
>There aren't 40 Asian tiger economies
There aren't 40 Germany/UK/France either.
>they aren't geographically located close to each other
Yes they are. They occupy a space on the earth smaller than the EU.
>>69671008
>No it can't. The EU actively prevents this.
Of course you can nationalize the steel industry. France did it. You cannot hand them AID, but you can nationalize it. That is what a lot of countries did in the past. Germany nationalized banks, the UK nationalized banks, everybody did. No problem at all.
It is just a question HOW you do it.
But I wasn't talking about nationalizing anything. You can support free market manufacturing by providing an investment fund or tax cuts etc. All national things the UK could do. And to support the small man, the UK could support workers by cutting their taxes or helping them find jobs or support entrepreneurism etc. All of these things are done in Germany.
>>69671345
Unfortunately we can't all be degenerate slavs about it. White people have a sense of responsibility, duty and honour to their nations and future generations. When your survival and reproductive instincts have been ravaged and suppressed by decades of communism, I understand that you may not feel this sense so keenly.
>>69671462
Quick question. How can we compete in EU when fucking German companies don't pay taxes in here (thanks to one simple trick)? EU tax law is cancer and is serves only one purpose, to extract money from poorer countries to the big 3.
>>69671530
>Unfortunately we can't all be degenerate slavs about it.
Why not?
>White people have a sense of responsibility, duty and honour to their nations and future generations.
You are the ones who are committing a suicide, not us.
As for the last part, you seem retarded.
Let us wait for another 5 years and see who responded "responsibly" to the crisis, ok?
I'm sure UK won't turn into a worse shithole in that time.
>>69671209
>So what you are advocating is basically the destruction of nation states and our rights to soveregnity just so that you can compete with China or the US?
Ever heard of a federal state? Ever heard of the state rights debate in the US? Yes, I advocate that we morph into a US style federalist state with strong states rights. We can do that with more democracy and common sense powers handed to ELECTED EU officials.
>>69671209
>What's the difference between what you tried to do 75 years ago and what you are trying to do now?
Democracy, and you know it. Occupying all of Europe and killing millions is a bit different than advocating a democratic federal state.
>>69671230
>People will find other jobs, so it's fine
No, they do not. If you go into an economic depression, people just end up poorer, they do not find new jobs.
>>69671238
>The EU is predicated on destroying nationality for the sake of supranational federalisation. You think this doesn't have an effect on the nations it governs?
Why are people in the UK so much into conspiracy theories. FACT is the UK can do a lot of shit and steer its economy, just as Germany or Sweden or Poland. The UK chooses not to do these things.
>>69671317
>Germany doesn't even have nukes.
Yeah, neither does Austria. Actually, we do have nuclear weapons in our position that are to be mounted on Luftwaffe jets in case of a nuclear standoff.
---
The United States provides about 60 tactical B61 nuclear bombs for use by Germany under a NATO nuclear weapons sharing agreement. The bombs are stored at Büchel and Ramstein Air Bases, and in time of war would be delivered by Luftwaffe Panavia Tornado warplanes.
---
>>69671369
>There aren't 40 Germany/UK/France either.
Since when does Europe exist just of Germany, the UK and France?
>>69671369
>Yes they are. They occupy a space on the earth smaller than the EU.
You better look at a map. They are nowhere near geographically close to each other.
>>69671346
>the Austrian state used EU regulation to postpone the insolvency of Heta.
The SPÖ/ÖVP would've been kicked out of power if they were to bail out that bank. The EU legislation is here, we might as well use it right?
I think it's a total disaster, but we had to reduce losses just as we always do...WW1 and WW2 come to mind.
Besides, don't you agree that its retarded that you can postpone the insolvency of a bank?
Kärnten has suffered terribly in the last decade.
>mobile phone
>1990s
What the fuck man. The mobile phone was an American novelty in the 90s. Prohibitively expensive has been the norm for over 10 years now. As I said, the EU hasn't rectified this and if the EU worked it would've rectified this.
> which would be impossible in a mere free trade zone.
Partially because we don't need it. 3 is a company which has decided to give all its customers full coverage across all the countries it is active inside of. This came without the EU. A free trade pact or some sort of special agreement could easily provide the framework to let this work, international telecom that is. It doesn't require a federalized superstate.
>What is your evidence that EU legislation is burdensome and ineffective?
"EU Common Asylum Policy"
Totally effective right?
"EU Common Agricultural Policy"
Absolutely cancerous disaster.
>European debt issuance program for a company
This ridiculous finance market belongs outlawed. If a company goes bankrupt then it should be auctioned off or bought up.
>2000% more efficient than the US? Explain that.
It isn't. The US Federal government makes the law.
The EU federal government goes "hey you national parliament must discuss this legislation or indefinitely postpone this legislation, but you cannot throw it out" and then a few months later the EU federal government goes "in order to continue getting payments or benefits from certain laws you must adopt previous legislations".
This is a very sluggish federal dictatorship.
>>69671769
>neither does Austria.
We don't need it. Remember how we are neutral? We just need a strong government and not this globalist jew shill assembly we currently have and we can play this neutrality card just like Switzerland.
>we do have nuclear weapons
You don't preside over them, America / NATO does. Your nation is occupied by a foreign force.
> for use by Germany under a NATO nuclear weapons sharing agreement.
I bet you guys can call the shots. Bunch of bullshit. Germany was expressly forbidden from owning nuclear weapons and much more so actually using them.
Those bombs aren't yours.
>>69671594
>How can we compete in EU when fucking German companies don't pay taxes in here (thanks to one simple trick)? EU tax law is cancer
1. Poland is gearing up to have a trade surplus with Germany, so what the fuck?
2. What "EU tax law"? Tax law is pretty much all in the hands of the EU states. What the EU provides is a framework for VAT and a floor for corporate income tax (10% or so).
>>69671769
>No, they do not. If you go into an economic depression, people just end up poorer, they do not find new jobs.
That's what Merkel told you.
Motherfucker, people will create jobs for themselves if you take away welfare from them. If you think they will drop dead from hunger just because there are no jerbs than you must be retarded. Free market finds a way, but only when it's somewhat free.
>>69671769
>Yes, I advocate that we morph into a US style federalist state with strong states rights
>strong states rights
Do you seriously believe in this possibility in the current state that Europe is? Hell you don't even allow states to reject migrant quotas and you sanction the hell out of those who don't want them
>Democracy
again see above
>Occupying all of Europe and killing millions is a bit different than advocating a democratic federal state.
With your current policy you aim at homogenizing the European people in a mass of servants without an identity. The difference this time is that instead of "germanization" you want "arabization/africanization". This doesn't change the fact that it is still a genocide of natives and their identity
>The United States provides
So you admit that this Euro project is about becoming an extension of Washington
>>69671462
The EU cannot be defended except by lies.
The UK cannot artificially subsidise a failing industry under EU rules. Tata Steel loses a million a day. The UK cannot provide state aid or nationalise the steel industry and still adhere to EU competition rules. Just because there isn't a clause that says, you're not allowed to nationalise industries, doesn't mean it's not technically prohibited. Why would you nationalise an industry that can survive in the free market. France nationalised parts of its steel industry TEMPORARILY. Because permanent nationalisation IS AGAINST EU RULES.
tl;dr EU rules: you can nationalise (temporarily), but not under any of the conditions in which you actually would need to nationalise.
>>69667249
Well, Germans are known as very persistent shills for whoever their master is, be it Hitler, Stalin or Merkel.
>implying any union with Germans in it can work
>>69671999
>1. Poland is gearing up to have a trade surplus with Germany, so what the fuck?
But all of the larger Companies are owned by Fucking Germans. Germans are selling products to Germany and pay no taxes.
Why do you think Amazon moved from Germany to Poland?
>What "EU tax law"?
A law that allows you to transfer money to another EU country and pay no taxes in the country you operate in.
>>69672097
Germans are the most naive people in Europe.
That doesn't mean they are bad or unproductive, they are just very good cattle. The best cattle, actually.
>says the Austrian
[hands rubs in German]
>>69665371
>Do you think there can be any reform at all of the EU in the next few years?
No. You'd have to turn the whole thing around and reshape it into something that protects the nations instead of undermining them. The Je- I mean the millionaires will start killing us before letting that happen.
>>69671863
>"EU Common Asylum Policy"
>Totally effective right?
Yes, because there is no EU Common Asylum Policy. There is Dublin III, which is NOT a common asylum policy. There are also some general guidelines, but 90% of asylum proceedings and laws are NATIONAL state laws. Haven't you followed the whole debate in the last 10 months? the whole problem is that there is no common asylum policy and no common EU border guard and no common EU foreign policy to solve the crisis.
>"EU Common Agricultural Policy"
>Absolutely cancerous disaster.
What? What about it is "cancerous disaster"? Be specific. Austria pays an extra 2 billion or so on their farmers IN ADDITION to EU payments. This is done by the elected Austrian government. Are you saying the EU's unaminously agreed agriculture subsidies are cancer, but austria's own subsidies are perfect?
>>69672048
>Motherfucker, people will create jobs for themselves if you take away welfare from them.
Like in Greece or Italy or Syria or Afghanistan? Reality shows they just MOVE away. There are 2 million POlish people in Germany. Why? Why don't they just stay in Poland? The fact is, they come here to earn more and have a better life. If they found good jobs in POland, they would have stayed there.
>>69672060
>Do you seriously believe in this possibility in the current state that Europe is?
It is already a federal state. The last 12 months showed that pretty much all important decisions in Europe were resolved on the EU level. Greece, the migrant crisis, Ukraine/Russia, TTIP, China, etc.
>>69672060
>So you admit that this Euro project is about becoming an extension of Washington
No, it is about breaking free from the strings of Washington. Only a united democratic Europe can stand up to foreign powers such as China, Russia and the USA.
>>69672279
You're right, they are. They lack a thing which is found very often in Slavs and that thing is spite.
Germans always follow authority and never even doubt it. A Germanbro once joked here that in all their recorded history, they haven't even overthrown one leader.
As for Austrians, from what I've heard you're much closer to Slavic/Balkan mentality especially considering that even up to 1945 there was a significant number of Slavic people living in Austria.
>>69671838
>Since when does Europe exist just of Germany, the UK and France?
That's exactly what I'm implying idiot. SEA economies are no more diverse than EU economies.
>You better look at a map. They are nowhere near geographically close to each other.
Singapore is less than 3,000 miles from South Korea.
Gibraltar to northern Finland is well over 3,000 miles.
Every single one of your posts contains easily verifiable lies. Why can't you defend the EU without lying?
>>69672496
>There are 2 million POlish people in Germany. Why?
Because you retards can't keep your border closed and keep paying us good money.
You need to learn how to protect your own market instead of bringing is niggers who will work for less and less.
>>69672087
>ou can nationalise (temporarily), but not under any of the conditions in which you actually would need to nationalise.
You can create national companies, you can create investment banks, you can run national companies etc. Are you saying Germany is violating EU rules by owning stakes in lots and lots of companies?
Yes, pumping money into FAILING companies just so they can reduce prices and thus compete unfairly is outlawed. But there is no problem in the UK providing sound business investments in whatever industry it likes or run steel works that actually can survive and make money or reduce taxes for certain industries.
>>69672279
It's not so much naïveté as it is the knowledge that Europe would trample on us if we didn't have some degree of power over this continent. So even Germans who dislike the Euro, and dislike all EU influence in the country, will inevitably side with the EU to make sure our inferiors stay inferior.
>>69672496
>Greece, the migrant crisis, Ukraine/Russia, TTIP, China, etc.
Kek!
None of these issues had been "resolved".
Your media lied to you once again.
>>69672197
>A law that allows you to transfer money to another EU country and pay no taxes in the country you operate in.
That is not an "EU law", that is just freedom of doing business across the EU. If the tax law in Ireland or Luxembourg is more favorable than in Poland, why not move there? Are you saying competition should be outlawed by the EU by actually establishing intrusive EU laws that currently do not exit?
>>69672301
>Yes, because there is no EU Common Asylum Policy.
It got passed last year. Are you living under a rock?
We don't need an EU solution. The EU helped create this problem. They are the last people I would want to interview concerning "solving the migrant crisis"".
>EU's unaminously agreed agriculture subsidies are cancer,
Yes. The EU caused a massive shift in produce here away from human food grains towards bio-diesel crops. It caused a bump in our grain pricing. The farmers took money from the highest bidder, the money was where the sunflower seeds were, not where the wheat was.
It was the EU that caused this. The EU also forced all the farmers here to buy new equipment because the old plowing equipment was "inadequate and environmentally destructive". I am talking about the difference between the big plows with deep undercutting shovels vs. the new "plows" where the dirt on the surface is just kind of stirred around.
This all came from the EU. Austrian politics are dumb but they aren't as headless as this. Of course the subsidies stopped from the EU, they dried up. But at least the farmers are growing food crops again instead of bio diesel.
>>69672510
Austrians are also mostly of the cattle breed. It depends where you go. The distribution of IQ here is massive. Some kids are born geniuses, some families smarter than others. Lots of Austrians immediately become critical of things provided they look past their egos. Many Austrians are still peasants and cattle.
I find that those areas of Austria which have had contact with Slavs are of "heightened" intellect. They seem to be critical more quickly than the rest of the bunch. I've always liked our Slavic neighbors, much better company than t*rks.
>>69672623
German superiority should manifest itself in a Germany currency, not a shared currency. That is how you would conquer this continent economically.
>>69672669
You should pay taxes in every country you operate in. It's fucking simple, but somehow you fuck are ok with the current state of events because all stolen money goes back to Germany. Tax optimization is a major dick move and causes Everyone to lose in the long run. Check our where does Ikea pay taxes and why.
>>69672748
>German superiority should manifest itself in a Germany currency, not a shared currency. That is how you would conquer this continent economically.
But it would get too valuable. German prosperity is like 80% dependent on exports. We don't want to be like Japan.
>>69672605
>Because you retards can't keep your border closed and keep paying us good money.
But you just said, if there are no good jobs, people just create their own job. How do you explain that in reality that is not the case?
>>69672496
>all important decisions in Europe were resolved on the EU level. Greece, the migrant crisis, Ukraine/Russia, TTIP, China, etc.
How did we solve the Greek problem? We keep giving them debt which they can't and never will be able to repay. Greece is a failed state, but you can't let it default and restart because it's tied to the Euro.
>migrant crisis
How is it solved again? We will be getting all the refugees in Turkey rather then the ones in Greece, and all the ones who apply for refugee status in Turkey will be allowed to come in. Not to mention that we gave Turks 6 billion Euros just like that Also we keep getting boatloads of Africans from Italy. Will we allow Libya to come in the EU just to stop this crisis?
>Ukraine/Russia
What did we solve as far as Ukraine and Russia go? You wanted to sneak in agreements with Ukraine until the dutch realized it. Is this democracy to you?
>China
what?
>TTIP
which passed and will fuck us over even more
>No, it is about breaking free from the strings of Washington
Dude you fucking army is completely dependent on Washington, your media is owned by Washington, your government is aligned with Washington.
>>69672607
So, basically the EU actively prevents the UK being self-sufficient in steel production. Thanks for clarifying that.
>>69672639
>None of these issues had been "resolved".
They are all addressed on an EU level, not on a state level. Which means the EU already is a federal state as all important decisions are taken at its level.
Now, lets make the EU more efficient, more democratic and hand them more powers so it can work better.
>>69672909
>hand them more powers
what happened to Power to the People
>>69665371
I get some FREE stuff out of it, so I don't give a shit. We'll probably opt out if you force mudslimes on us.
>>69671769
>The UK chooses not to do these things.
Because of the EU.
>>69672853
It would work if other countries refused to hire foreigners en masse for more money. By hiring Poles you are killing innovation and development of Polish businesses. In history, people gave a fuck about not hiring foreigners in their countries. That's why the system worked.
>>69672748
>It got passed last year. Are you living under a rock?
What? Link please? There is NO EU common asylum policy that passed any time last year or before. You are delusional
>>69672748
>This all came from the EU. Austrian politics are dumb but they aren't as headless as this. Of course the subsidies stopped from the EU, they dried up. But at least the farmers are growing food crops again instead of bio diesel.
First, I am 100% behind biofuels. We are importing a shitload of oil from Islamic dictatorship, that must stop.
Secondly, Austria is one of the countries that is the most in favor of the CAP and does not want to reduce EU payments to Austrian farmers... Austria even adds billions in subsidies to farmers, including for biofuels.
>>69672748
>German superiority should manifest itself in a Germany currency, not a shared currency. That is how you would conquer this continent economically.
Absolute BS. When the Euro was adopted, Germany was the sick man of Europe. Only through the Euro could Germany recover and be a manufacturing giant again on a world stage.
>>69672909
>They are all addressed on an EU level, not on a state level. Which means the EU already is a federal state as all important decisions are taken at its level.
>Now, lets make the EU more efficient, more democratic and hand them more powers so it can work better.
Do you even listen to yourself? Can't you see how your posts are contradictory as hell?
>>69672909
>Now, lets make the EU more efficient, more democratic
Sure, let's make EU more efficient. All you have to do is to kill everyone in Brussels and move EU institutions away from Germany/France/UK and hire new staff.
>>69672783
The EU isn't regulating tax law, it is national states. Companies do not pay taxes in some EU states because they use accounting tricks by transferring assets away from those countries, thus resulting in 0 taxable profits.
However, all countries pay wages to employees in each country they have employees. And those employees pay taxes.
If you ask me, we should just eliminate corporate income tax, it is a scam anyway and a nightmare to regulate.
>>69673215
>If you ask me, we should just eliminate corporate income tax, it is a scam anyway and a nightmare to regulate.
God, I pray that this would happen. Our welfare states would collapse, people would finally wake up and remove kebab and destroy the EU.
>>69673215
So wait. When Poland tries to force German companies to pay Taxes in Poland (banking, supermarkets), suddenly Entire EU calls us Nazis and threaten us with sanctions. How is this not trying to regulate our law?
>>69672897
>So, basically the EU actively prevents the UK being self-sufficient in steel production. Thanks for clarifying that.
No, it does not. The UK can create profitable steel production. But it cannot, under EU law AND under WTO rules, state subsidize steel plants which are not profitble, just to create steel at dumping prices for exports.
We have put tariffs on Chinese products where China tried to subsidize businesses to create dumping prices. Why should the UK be allowed to do what China isn't allowed? And how does it help the UK to put billions into loss making companies without a view that they ever be profitable again?
>>69672801
>But it would get too valuable.
Isn't that sort of the point?
A few of your Mark to buy up lots of the other people's Shillings?
I don't like the idea that one single country would rule Europe, but I would trust the Germans to do it the best. With a benevolent dictator, not the current jew shills.
Your nation and its people are born to be the most industrious. As we saw 80 years ago there simply is no stopping the German economy no matter what the odds are.
I don't like the current anglo-jew shadow dictatorship in Europe and especially wouldn't enjoy a Russian threat.
However, even inside the Euro your power has manifested itself. Germany has to undervalue the Euro in order to not totally destroy the rest of the monetary union and you've successfully managed to put the French economy on a slow ride to death.
>>69672853
Polish people say to themselves "oh look its really easy to go to Germany and even the most remedial task pays much more than it does here, well bye bye Warsaw and hello Berlin".
>>69673132
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2008:0360:FIN:EN:PDF
>First, I am 100% behind biofuels.
My support for non-food agriculture ends when our food supply is threatened. Its fucking retarded to grow crops for biodiesel and risk not having food the following year. The population comes before the environment.
>most in favor of the CAP
Comes from our government. This is how they secure voters... at the expense of security in the food supply.
>Only through the Euro could Germany recover
Idk about that there's lots of German gold in the Fed and the Euro is forcefully undervalued in Germany. The Euro is too weak for Germany.
>>69673039
>>The UK chooses not to do these things.
>Because of the EU.
That is a lie. Germany is doing all these things. The EU allows it. The UK can do the same.
>>69673043
>It would work if other countries refused to hire foreigners en masse for more money.
So you are saying, that capitalism is bad.
Got it. You cannot change capitalism, that is how the world has been run since the dawn of civilization. And it will continue to run this way, with or without the EU.
>>69673442
can you answer these points?
>>69672867
>>69673215
>eliminate corporate income tax
Aren't you the guy who wants government to be more efficient? You're not going to do that by reducing its funds. Not that I like taxes. But an efficient government is one that has plenty money to throw at problems.
>>69673187
>All you have to do is to kill everyone in Brussels and move EU institutions away from Germany/France/UK and hire new staff.
And how would that help in any way? So if you killed all elected officials in Brussels, what then?
Where would the EU institutions move? To Poland?
>>69665371
>-5%
>>69673329
>Our welfare states would collapse, people would finally wake up and remove kebab and destroy the EU.
The corporate income tax is insignificant overall. The big tax revenue sources are VAT and personal income taxes.
Nothing would collapse if you eliminate corporate income tax. You would just have massive foreign investments into the EU.
>>69665371
The EU is a mess of corruption and bureaucracy.
On June 23rd I get to vote in a referendum about my country's membership of this vile organisation.
I love Europe. I speak fluent German and Spanish. My French is a bit off but communicating is easy.
I have lived and worked in Germany, Spain and Ireland. UK is a bit of a mixture anyway - my passport states 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. A bit of a mouthful. It's a mess of different countries and islands like Isle of Man, Jersey.
I'm English. Wife is Scottish. Yet we share the same nationality.
Also 'Great' Britain is not us being arrogant cunts in describing ourselves as 'Great'. It's simply a geographical term to distinguish from 'Bretagne' or ' Brittany' in North West France. They speak a language similar to Welsh and Cornish. And have historic ties to these islands.
Anyway, fuck the EU. I want my sovereignty back even though it's shit.
>>69673537
>hat is how the world has been run since the dawn of civilization
WRONG!
People refused to hire foreigners in past. It was fucking illegal to come to other countries just like that and take jobs from people, mkay?
People used to kill people that are aliens in their own home. You are being brainwashed.
>>69673338
Calling you names is now "trying to regulate your law"?
You can make German companies pay taxes in Poland if they have taxable income in Poland. Nobody denies that authority to Poland. The EU has no authority in tax law.
>>69673351
>The UK can create profitable steel production.
No it can't. British steel is not viable. So therefore it can't produce steel. Because of the EU.
>>69673614
>And how would that help in any way? So if you killed all elected officials in Brussels, what then?
>Where would the EU institutions move? To Poland?
Sure. You replace them with new people and destroy Lisbon treaty. Every nation = 1 vote. institutions should get scattered all over Europe.
>>69673399
>The Euro is too weak for Germany.
Where do you get that notion from? A weak Euro is good for Germany, a strong Euro is bad. When the Euro got up to 1.60 to the USD, German companies where in big trouble. Even when it was 1.30 to 1.35, people were bitching.
Right now at 1.10 to 1.15, everyone in Germany is happy, we have record employment and the economy is doing generally ok. We have the strongest budget surplus since the dawn of the Republic.
>>69673351
>We have put tariffs on Chinese products where China tried to subsidize businesses to create dumping prices.
No we haven't. Chinese steel dumping in the UK is precisely why British steel is not profitable.
>>69671769
What you're saying is that the EU is ridden with parasites and we have no political maneuver with which to legally remove them, but IF ONLY we magically do so and replace the rotten system with an overcomplex farse that simultaneously accounts for population differences and doesn't (lol) then it would be beneficial from a market perspective.
How about just having the market option?
How about no Schengen? Since the only way it could be reformed would be making it for native yuropoors only. It's rayciss that a government wants to know who this turk with a two-months work visa is, and why he's going to Britain.
How about not having this centralized power in Brussels that keeps pushing an anti-borders agenda? Calling the fence that protects the people of Melilla and Ceuta shameful, disgusting and belittling the men who guard it. Treating "fellow europeans" as second class citizens, with no regard at all for their well-being.
No wonder it's a german that's so in love with this idea. Most EU countries are actual geographical entities and have been so for centuries before north america was even colonized. Not so much for germany which has always been an amalgamation of people with different national loyalties.
There are no return points in the development of nations, where limits are defined and you cannot revert them neither with passive threats of economic disaster nor with force -unless you literally subjugate the people of that country, be it physically or mentally.
The USA and Germany developed as federal states, they understand their regions as united under a centralized power because while there are differences between them, they aren't strong enough nor have a prolongued background to them that separates them.
That isn't the case for most European countries, we have been neighbors, enemies and allies all our history. This shared past can't be swept aside for the sick dream of over-ambitious bankers.
>>69673764
>Calling you names is now "trying to regulate your law"?
http://www.reuters.com/article/poland-ratings-sp-idUSL3N14Z532
Guess, who lowered the rating? Motherfucker in Frankfurt.
Do you even market?
>>69673587
>You're not going to do that by reducing its funds.
Eliminating the corporate income tax doesn't reduce funds available through taxes, as such a move would result in a massive foreign funds inflow from across the world into the EU economy.
VAT, excise taxes, capital gain and dividend taxes and personal income taxes make up nearly 95% of the tax revenue in the EU. The 5% from corporate income tax are irrelevant.
>>69665371
Germany was doing fine before the EU, why did it choose to join? foolish choice in my opinion senpai
>>69673718
>It was fucking illegal to come to other countries just like that and take jobs from people, mkay?
For a few years, but for thousands of years, you could just hire and fire anyone you liked. People moved around. It was just between 1880 and 1980 or so that there have been restrictions on individual movement.
>>69673784
>No it can't. British steel is not viable. So therefore it can't produce steel. Because of the EU.
And yet there are German steel companies that can profitable produce steel. How come?
Steel companies: indispensable for the economy
Germany is the largest steel producer in the EU and the seventh largest in the world. As a basic industry, the steel sector is of particular importance for the value-creation chains, and is the backbone of Germany’s economy.
Europe’s leading steel location
Germany, with annual production of almost 43 million tonnes of crude steel in 2014, is the world’s seventh-largest steel producer and the largest in the European Union (EU 28). Germany is responsible for 2,6 per cent of world production, or a quarter of crude steel production in the EU. With 17.2 billion euros, the steel industry in Germany is responsible for about 30 per cent of the value creation achieved by the European steel industry.
About two-thirds of steel in Germany is produced in integrated steel mills (blast furnace, steelworks and rolling mill), the remaining third via the electric steel route. The manufacture of hot-rolled finished products totalled 36.5 m. tonnes in 2014. Most were flat products (65 per cent), with long products making up the remaining 35 per cent. Stainless and alloyed steels make up over 50 per cent of total production and thus have a higher status here than is internationally usual (approx. 30 per cent). North Rhine-Westphalia is the German state that produces the most steel – about 40 per cent.
http://en.stahl-online.de/index.php/topics/economics/steel-industry-in-germany/
>>69674065
>People moved around.
Inside empires and kingdoms.
There were still borders between enemies.
Borders became pretty serious around a millennium ago and have been serious since.
>>69674065
>It was just between 1880 and 1980 or so that there have been restrictions on individual movement.
And it worked great.
Also, I disagree with your statement that it isn't the default behavior of all humans since forever to not hire fucks from different tribes.
>>69674137
Profitability of steel has a whole lot to do with "producing cheap".
>>69673882
>No we haven't. Chinese steel dumping in the UK is precisely why British steel is not profitable.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steel-tata-javid-eu-dumping_uk_56fbbdd1e4b0c5bd919a9215
Yeah, the UK is actually the only EU state blocking the EU's proposed measures to sanction China's steel imports.
---
The Government is today still blocking an EU plan to tackle the flood of cheap Chinese steel into the UK, despite the industry being on the brick of collapse.
The Department for Business confirmed to the Huff Post UK this afternoon it remained opposed to the EU axing the so-called ‘lesser-duty’ rule, which would allow increased tariffs to be placed on Chinese steel.
The measure was first floated in 2013, but as recently as February Business Secretary Sajid Javid was speaking out against such a move.
But today, as Anna Soubry insisted the Government was looking at “all the options” to help steel workers keep their jobs in Port Talbot and beyond, it was confirmed her department would keep blocking the axing of the ‘lesser duty’ rule.
A spokesman for EUROFER, the European Steel Association, expressed shock at the Government’s continued anti-tariff stance.
He said: “We can’t really understand why they can’t do whatever it takes to fix the system. They had the opportunity.
“Scrapping the lesser duty rule is a huge difference.”
Axing the rule would allow the EU to impose higher tariff charges on steel coming into continent as a way of counteracting the aggressive production of countries such as China.
>>69673973
S&P is an American company.
And I work in Frankfurt in the financial industry.
>>69674031
>Germany was doing fine before the EU, why did it choose to join? foolish choice in my opinion senpai
Actually, when the EU came into existence in 1993 and until the Eurozone was established between 1999 and 2002, Germany was the sick man of Europe, with 12% unemployment, a struggling economy, poor people everywhere, a big Eastern German problem etc.
But the EU and the Eurozone turned Germany around.
>>69674373
But the people who decided to lower the rating was a Fucking Germans in Frankfurt. Stop hiding behind "it's a bloody Global Corporation".
Do you want me to find the interview with this poor fuck who did this? It's in polish, but you can use google translate. Inb4 something is illegal hence it surely didn't happen.
>>69674153
>Borders became pretty serious around a millennium ago and have been serious since.
1000 years ago? You like a fucking moron? People moved around across Europe all the time until the creation of the nation states in the 19th century.
>>69674509
I thought the Deutsche Mark was way stronger than the initial Euro? I mean overall, wouldn't Germany end up supporting less wealthy countries in the EU? How did Deutschland benefit?
>>69674373
This guy,
Felix Winnekens
http://www.pb.pl/4417023,19392,wywiad-z-czlowiekiem-odpowiedzialnym-za-rating-polski
Doesn't look American to me...
Bunch of corrupted assholes.
>>69674594
>People moved around across Europe all the time until the creation of the nation states in the 19th century.
Source? Last time I checked we used to kill Germans because they were not Poles.
>>69674582
All country ratings are authorized by S&P in New York. Look it up. S&P has a management and it doesn't allow some minor guy in the food chain in Germany make any actual decision.
>>69674679
BEADY
>>69674594
Merchants moved around.
Peasants and serfs didn't.
The only "state" that existed were city states which built massive walls around themselves to keep out filthy saracens or conquerors.
People weren't free like they are today. 500 years ago you were probably born in a town run by the local nobility and you would die in that same town. It was rare that people moved big distances as they were too poor. Not to mention cities didn't have nearly as much of a pull factor as they started having with industrialization.
Sure I could move, provided I was rich enough.
>>69674723
And yet, Germans somehow pushed this bullshit lowering of polish rating through. They aren't hiding it. They wrote this bullshit in Frankfurt, because "polish democracy is threatened".
>>69674666
>I mean overall, wouldn't Germany end up supporting less wealthy countries in the EU? How did Deutschland benefit?
Economics, dude.
If you have a strong currency, then your own products are a lot more expensive outside of your country. Your exporters cannot really export much and are uncompetitive.
Now, with the advent of the Euro, Germany had a unique position to start exporting and investing across Europe in Euro and getting recognition across the world as a stable exporter in a world currency. And that is what happened. And as German exports got stronger, the Euro did not appreciate massively, but kept relatively stable compare to other currencies. As a result, German exporters remained competitive on a world stage, benefiting the German economy massively.
Uncompetitive countries in the Eurozone, however, struggled with a currency that was too strong for them. And these countries were (and still are) mostly uncompetive due to corruption, socialist market interference and large welfare systems - these countries ended up not getting the message of having to improve and reform to get more competitive. Germany made hard decisions in the 1990s and early 2000s, eliminating a lot of free market interference.
>>69674916
Well, S&P lowered Poland's rating because their internal models for Poland's credit worthiness deteriorated. That is how S&P works. S&P has internal standards and publishes extensive analysis on the creditworthiness on countries and companies. The new Polish government is a wild card, and increased potential risk means a lower rating.
----
“Poland’s new government has initiated various legislative measures that we consider weaken the independence and effectiveness of key institutions,” S&P said.
It also changed Poland’s rating outlook from positive to negative, warning it could cut the rating again over the next two years “if monetary policy credibility is undermined or if public finances deteriorate beyond our current expectations.”
>>69674916
You are so brainwashed by "evil germans" propaganda, sweet jesus
>>69674137
Germany has a very strong economy.
But a piss poor military.
I'm just stating facts. UK has the most powerful military in Europe. Biggest financial sector in the world. New York is comes close to London, but I hate London. It's a fucking shithole.
I spent nine years serving my country. Family tradition and I wanted to travel.
A country's defence is an insurance policy. A strong military protects the economy.
I'm not talking shit. If you want a strong economy, then it must be protected. With threat of violence.
>>69675223
>“Poland’s new government has initiated various legislative measures that we consider weaken the independence and effectiveness of key institutions,” S&P said.
Politics have nothing to do with financial ratings, mkay? We are still leading in Europe when it comes to economic growth.
S&P made a political, biased decision to punish Poland for fucking up Germans and that's it. There is a reason why other institutions called S&P retarded and kept their ratings for Poland.
>>69674954
impressive
>>69675248
>German businessman wants to kill all Poles.
http://polskaniepodlegla.pl/wydarzenia/item/6062-niemiecki-biznesmen-chce-zabic-wszystkich-polakow-reduta-dobrego-imienia-kolejny-raz-interweniuje
>>69675273
What's the size of the UK army by the way? I'm looking for sources for ours and it seems to be 80k active.
>>69675273
>But a piss poor military.
Yes, the military is not strong. But it isn't "piss poor". It's budget is 35 billion Euros. The UK's budget is 45 billion Pounds (56 billion Euros). That is a lot more, but Germany still has a sizable budget.
>>69675273
>Biggest financial sector in the world.
No, London is, alongside New York, the financial center of the world. The UK does NOT have the biggest financial sector. Different things. The US has by far the biggest financial industry, followed by the EU.
>>69675273
>A country's defence is an insurance policy. A strong military protects the economy.
Which is why a lot of European countries call for an EU army or at least a better EU cooperation and standards across the EU for military spending.
>>69675273
>If you want a strong economy, then it must be protected.
Not by a military, but by good economic policy, a good finance minister of the EU (which does not exist) and a strong foreign policy.
>>69675363
>Politics have nothing to do with financial ratings, mkay?
Yes, S&P, Fitch and Moody's are all private companies which rate countries and companies. Poland has the option to not get a rating from these rating agencies. It chooses to have ratings and pays the rating agencies for that.
>We are still leading in Europe when it comes to economic growth.
Yes, but you have a more volatile economy and a less stable political system, which adds risks to your solvency.
>>69675363
>There is a reason why other institutions called S&P retarded and kept their ratings for Poland.
Look here for all country ratings. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/poland/rating
Doesn't seem to be very political biased if you ask me. I see that countries which are poorer, less political stable etc. have a worse rating than stronger, larger and richer economies.
>>69675728
>Yes, but you have a more volatile economy and a less stable political system
Except we don't. That's the point. New Gov Makes our economy stronger and yet EU shits on us for trying to strengthen our economy. German businesses owning half of Poland doesn't want Polish industry to get up from its knees.
>>69665371
If every right wing nationalist party wins the elections in every EU country we might see a bright future.
If Geert Wilders wins here, we will start the cleansing.
>>69675728
I need to take a dump, so I will repeat this so it would sink in.
We aren't less stable now!
Fucking lying media painting us as the devil.
>>69675906
Poland is rated BBB+ by S&P, A2 by Moody's and A- by Fitch.
Germany is rated AAA by all three.
Just a conspiracy theory? I do not think so. If you look at where Polish debt is trading on the market and where German debt is trading, Polish debt is just more risky because the likelihood of a Polish insolvency is just more likely than a German insolvency (which is virtually impossible).
>>69676084
Oh, believe me, German debt is much larger than Polish debt and it is the Germany that will go bankrupt first. Everyone may be smiling and saying that things are fine, just fine, but they are not. You have the Euro, hence in my opinion you are in larger danger than Poland and PLN.
>>69676357
>Oh, believe me, German debt is much larger than Polish debt and it is the Germany that will go bankrupt first.
It is not about whether your debt is larger in absolute terms, there are many relevant metrics for a rating:
Typically you look at what the market says how stable a country is, whether it has a good flow of tax revenue, whether it can make policy changes to pay back interest, how the economy is doing (growing or not, volatile or now), whether its currency is going up or down and what the relationship between total debt and GDP is.
If Poland were in the Euro, its credit rating would be a lot better. But it is not. I am not even kidding. Look at Slovakia.Or the Netherlands. Or Finland.
>>69676708
>If Poland were in the Euro, its credit rating would be a lot better
never ever
We are not falling for this one.
Euro will crash without us.
>>69668775
>Intel and AMD are fierce competitors, yet no other processor manufacturer is allowed to use the X86 processor instruction set (this runs desktop OSes).
that's called cartel DESU.
>>69676791
>Intel and AMD are fierce competitors, yet no other processor manufacturer is allowed to use the X86 processor instruction set (this runs desktop OSes).
http://www.viatech.com/en/silicon/processors/
>>69676780
A majority of Poles want to adopt the Euro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_and_the_euro
And yes, it would massively help Poland.
>>69677084
>A majority of Poles want to adopt the Euro.
What a terrible lie.
One of the better discussion threads on /pol/ is rip?
>>69678726
It might be rip, but that is because nobody has actually addressed the initial question.
Why can there be no reform of the EU to make it more democratic? Why is there no momentum for it anywhere? Why do people in Europe not care and demand a more democratic EU?
>>69678726
I moved to another polish thread about Poland.
>>69678989
lol
>>69678918
Because the EU is a failed system.
Also democracy at the level of 500 million people is just too much. You cannot effectively govern this much landmass and industry with one set of policies. Democracy works on a local level and everything above needs to be some form of aristocracy. Hopefully a non-jewish one.
People in Europe don't care because they have food to eat and their homes are warm in the winter. People will start caring when that stops being the case.
>>69679213
>Also democracy at the level of 500 million people is just too much.
Doesn't look like it in the US with 320 million people.
>>69679213
>People in Europe don't care because they have food to eat and their homes are warm in the winter.
I do not think so, there are lots of Europeans who have not enough food, not enough jobs, not enough things. Shit is better in a functioning system.
>>69679465
US democracy is a meme between two parties.
They are the same side of the coin. Its essentially a single party state. Voter turnout for the midterms was only 58%. Lots of Americans have given up on voting.
>who have not enough food, not enough jobs, not enough things
Wouldn't they be out in the streets protesting then?
>>69679666
>US democracy is a meme between two parties.
>They are the same side of the coin. Its essentially a single party state. Voter turnout for the midterms was only 58%. Lots of Americans have given up on voting.
No, it is not. You are speaking from a continental European perspective without understanding that parties in the US or UK are much different than parties in continental Europe.
In Germany or Austria, MPs are principally mindless drones which raise their arms in party line in 99.9% of the times. In America, the system is completely different. The "party line" is much more vague and personalities are much more important. That is why Trump can run as a Republican, even though he by no mean supports anything Republicans are pushing as conservative.
>>69679666
>Wouldn't they be out in the streets protesting then?
They are, look at Greece, Southern Italy, Spain. But just like in America where there are large numbers of homeless poor people, the poor in the EU give up relatively easily. Protests need energy, they do not have that.
>>69679930
On all important issues, especially those concerning America's Greatest Ally congress votes unanimously.
I lived in America for 4 years and have been tracking their politics for a while now. I know that their congressmen and politicians are much spread out. They are all politically alike though.
While the lines are fogged, they all cluster on the same spot. Trump's politics are the first to be much more different than the usual deviation from the mean.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/us2016.png
On this image they all agglomerate in the same area.
Most congressmen float in the middle of the blue quadrant.
>They are, look at Greece, Southern Italy, Spain.
They get ruthlessly beaten down. There is no point in demonstrating because the government will show up and attack you for trying to change things.
It was the German government that made Greece an EU protectorate and is now attempting to sacrifice it to the niggers in the coming invasion.
>tfw people start to realise the real problem with Europe and the EU is Germoney
