What are the pros and cons to socialized healthcare? How much would it cost me, an american citizen, to afford this?
>>69536030
There would be no direct costs to you but the real cost would be hidden in the form of higher income taxes, which would be higher that what you pay now
>>69536030
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUXwDMqjC-A
Sanders is kill.
Film at 11.
It's the only system there is. You are not a Volvo and you should not be paying as such to die sooner
>>69536247
That's direct cost, just via different method of collection.
>>69536854
Yep. And it's cheaper too. By half
>>69536324
>those pro-Bernie comments on there
>>69536324
He doesn't care who works he only wants money changing jews to profit off you
probably not for AMERICA but i'm really proud of the public healthcare system we have in denmark. it's pretty good and i believe that like kids with leukemia should get the best treatment we, as a nation, can give them. same thing with old syphilitic hobos.
>>69536030
write your own god damn term paper. quit making us come up with your arguments you lazy fucking faggot.
>>69537032
Me too. And yes it works really well up here too. I don't need the scaremongering either because we've done it for 60 years and proved ourselves. Shitty Falsedope will break it all though
I already hate the fact that my tax dollars go to human filth so they can buy discounted easter candy with EBT. Why would I want them to receive free education as well?
>>69537122
>works really well
>long waiting periods and higher income tax is working
>>69537190
You don't understand math. Can't blame you. You wait for things based on need. Not chair mushrooms. Nobody dies or suffers waiting. If it means I pay half and live longer then you can pay double and be a fatty
>>69537331
>pay half
Bullshit
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/medical-wait-times-up-to-3-times-longer-in-canada-1.2663013
>pros
Provides access to care to people who would perhaps not have it ( the utility of this is debateable, but I will count it)
>cons
It will cost a fortune. Our governemnt sucks at managing costs, and people over use services when they don't have to pay for them.
Productive poeple will foot the bill run up by people who run up the costs with no intention of providing a contribution, and this is terribly unjust.
Cons: higher taxes, lower quality, longer wait times
Pros: costs less, guarantee of care for poor
>>69537480
Pay half. Talks about wait times. Got a hangnail? Go home. Got cardiac arrest? Get out of my ER, Monopoly Man and make way. We pay 4000 per capita. You're paying upwards of 12000
>>69537120
Not in school, just graduated and I'm undecided. Thought I would ask the autistic crowd of their opinions on the matter.
>>69537331
>>>69537190
> If it means I pay half and live longer then you can pay double and be a fatty
You pay half of what? Half the income tax I pay?
>>69537636
Costs nigger. Fucking costs you mouthbreather. What taxes did the homeless guy pay? Three cents. We prevent 50 mortgages. Nobody can buy bulk like a state, not even wal mart.
>>69537610
Except you're not paying half, you pay more through your taxes and your quality of medical care is lower than ours.
>It helps the poor more than it helps the rich
>Long waiting times in ER because everyone will go for little things
>Detrimental to staying healthy as you can just keep getting free healthcare
>>69536324
>Watch video
>Bernie says he believes in universal health care
>Rand Paul comes back with strong refutation
>Bernie plays damage control
>Asks if people feel like slaves while rubbing his nose for Jewish powers
>See that this video is on Bernie's channel
>mfw
>>69537768
We have a higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality and high research. We pay 4000. You pay almost 12000 now. Period. We also don't have shit like copays and deductibles because you broke your wing mirror and not your arm
>>69536030
Basically the idea is that healthcare is inherently expensive and causes burden on middle class families because basically everyone is guaranteed to have health problems as they get older. So socialized healthcare is funded by progressive taxes, put into a pull, and people withdraw from that pool whenever they go to the doctor or whatever. The idea is that people won't have to worry about the costs and can receive healthcare regardless of income level.
The cons are that socialized medicine would require yuge increases in taxation. This means large amounts of money are sucked away from people and funnelled through various government channels which are almost guaranteed to be more inefficient and have a negative impact on the economy. Also, socialized healthcare has no incentives to save on costs, so this mean people would go to the doctor for any little thing.
It's worth noting that healthcare in the US is currently terrible in many ways. I personally believe that our healthcare market is way over regulated and there are many practices that discourage competition. We don't even have any form of price transparency. It's almost never clear how much your Doctor will cost; totally unfair.
>>69537812
>you are a volkswagen
>this isn't inherently zionist
I just need an oilchange is all, guvneh!
>>69537835
>higher life expectancy
>by 2 years
woah what a difference
also you're welcome for all the medical breakthroughs being done in our country
also
>we pay 4000 you pay 12000
what are you even talking about?
>>69537990
I'm leaving now. You deserve what you get
Honestly the idiots who like socialized healthcare are people who haven't worked a day in their lives.
Pros: You can go to the doctor whenever you please.
Cons: If you're never sick anyway, it's just wasted tax money, especially with a incompetent healthcare management.
You still have to pay for medicine and sometimes part of the treatments.
>>69536030
Simplified Version
Pros
- everyone has some level of coverage for healthcare.
cons
- its so expensive that it naturally eventually fails as burden is increased on medical services
- wait times increase on all aspects of healthcare from waiting room times, to surgeries
- it costs a metric fuckton; and as burden increases on medical staff so does the demand for more pay.
>>69538021
Alright see you later when you're dead at the ER because some toronto drag queen chipped a nail m8
>>69536030
our under class is to large to do so without destroying our middle class
>>69536030
Depends on what you mean by socialized healthcare.
There's many systems in the world, and no two are alike.
>>69538147
Delusional. You're so retarded you smell. Durr durr wuddyu mean 4000 v 12000? We paying in lollipops? All the griping done in here so far about "cons" pf universal care are all Al Bundy lies
>>69537761
Your income taxes are higher, provincial taxes are higher, and sales taxes are higher. So what if you get free health care? You have to wait 2 to 3 times longer to see a health care provider and are paying for it in all your taxes you moron. You're so fucking stupid you can't even see the truth.
>>69538259
I thought you were leaving?
>You're so retarded you smell.
I knew Canadians were bad at insults but jesus christ
the biggest pro is that people would get regularly tested and know their statuses instead of ignoring testing theirselves and not knowing if they might have something and risk giving it to others.
if america had universal health care, it wouldn't have such a high prevalence of std's just look at western europe as an example
>>69538223
We already struggle with medicare, medicaid and veterans. Adding in everyone else is not likely to go down well; our government is not efficient at all.
Pro: everyone gets free healthcare
Con: it's shitty healthcare
>>69538411
>STDs
That's pretty much due to blacks. They even outdo gays on that.
>>69538378
>>69538399
>pays three times more
>dies sooner
>still tries to ask me what life is, and that this is my problem
Go tack on a few quadrillion more in derivatives. THOSE are the fuckers who never work. Just gamble all day. So cucked. Soooo. Cucked. Enjoy your $385 Aleve tablet
>select all the Sheds
Government run healthcare and insurance companies drive up the price of healthcare massively. A free market healthcare system would greatly lower costs and allow you to pay for the dankest services you can afford
i legit believe these people have no idea how health insurance works. cant get it with a Pre-existing Condition thats like wanting insurance after a car crash so they can pay for the bills
>>69538545 Nice try faggot. How about trying to make a coherent statement.
>>69538678
Nom nom what are numbers. Gimme another Beggin Strip
>>69538545
>still can't understand that he pays more in taxes to cover his health costs than we do for health insurance
>>69536030
If his plan for socialized healthcare goes in, then you will have "free" healthcare that is funded by an increase in taxes. However, the increase is low enough in the brackets of the average Americans that you'll still be effectively saving money.
>>69538707
Gonna keep making shit up?
>>69538731
I pay taxes. Some of us pay nothing. I get more. We all divide the tab by the number of people. 4000 each. You pay premiums. Your employer pays premiums. These cover services. Your DHHS builds hospitals with taxes. Covers nothing else. Add this all up. Divide by number of people. 4000. Or 12000. And die in lipocarcinoma
>>69538850
Where the fuck are you getting these numbers from?
>>69536030
I am dual.
Pro - You don't have nutjobs screaming about socialized healthcare all the time.
Con - To keep the cost the same or reduce cost, they reduce the service. Look at replacement surgeries, they had brutal wait times until people started freaking out about it so the government dumped a lot more cash into the system. Ask any Canadian in this thread if they have a family doctor. The answer is no, you are required to go to drop in clinics in order to receive any sort of medical attention. The only area where Canada has really good healthcare is in childbirth, because they are aware that infant mortality is an important stat so you get a lot more resources than you do in the US. The difference is that when you have a child born in the US and have decent insurance, you get a lot of tests done upfront to check for issues, not so in Canada.
>>69538918
Your ass you stupid lazy fuck. What the fuck is Jewgle? What the fuck are your own budget numbers? What the fuck is WHO and OECD?
>>69538946
Keep not voting NDP
>>69538735
Bern's tax hikes are huge on everyone. 20-25k Americans would lose 2k which greatly affects anyone who is living paycheck to paycheck and hurts their ability to save. Healthcare is a cost that comes later down the road in people's lives.
>>69536030
>pros
none
>cons
it's communism
>>69539015
Post an actual source instead of "le google xD"
>>69539069
Because obamacare fees make up the difference now and what if a bus runs you over? Take the taxes. Everybody saves. Or pay more and give out handjobs for crack
>>69538918
Probably from this study:
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/price-of-public-health-care-insurance-2015-rev.pdf
However this is limited in scope because there are expenditures that are not directly attributable such as provincial investment, University research, etc.
>>69539124
Do it yourself I am not your mother or your Professor although there is no teaching you
>>69539069
Did you miss the part where they're going to be effectively saving money because of how much less they're paying for healthcare? Private insurance is so expensive because of advertising. If you socialize the whole thing, you eliminate that aspect and it becomes absurdly cheaper.
>>69539144
What? Costs are going up under Obamacare. It's horrible for lower incomes.
>>69539195
Stop being a cunt. I fucking hate shit posting leafs...
>>69539245
This
>>69539270
Why is everybody here so stupid? Where did I advocate obummercare?
>>69539283
Blow me
>>69539245
are you seriously trying to rationalize somehow that raising taxes on the middle class "saves money" for them? fucking retard
>>69538559
>cant get it with a Pre-existing Condition thats like wanting insurance after a car crash so they can pay for the bills
Not exactly.
Insurance companies had the right to deny you based on your past medical history. The way that they did this was through an extensive questionnaire and a health check up (which was done at your expense); if you lied and they found out, you were dropped.
So even if you had coverage in the past, for example as a child through Medicaid or SCHIP and you were a poor soul that got a chronic condition such as Crohn's disease, once SCHIP expired at the age of 18, no insurance would take you, even if you had the money to pay for it. In essence, if you got a chronic condition and your insurance was dropped for whatever reason (loss of job), you wouldn't be able to get insurance.
Sure, there are scumbags who took advantage of it and waited until the last second to get insurance, hence the emphasis on denying people with pre-existing conditions, but it left a lot of legitimate people with no insurance.
>>69539420
Yeah. We are. That's just how fucked and stupid and cucked you are. Does it FEEL like it makes sense? Ignore it. Think deeper. If you let people run around they will take off and run away with it
>>69539245
>government run program
>cheap
Are you retarded?
>>69539522
Ah fuck. Pay 38 kajillion for them to break your head with a sledge hammer. Mmbuhbye
>>69539520
>Think deeper.
You're right. Let's pass a law against starvation while we're at it. The Federal government solves all problems with just a wave of a wand!
>>69539195
>can't come up with source for bullshit stats
>y-you're just retarded you big meanie!
you're a disgrace to your country dude
>>69539183
thank you
>>69536030
canadian here. access to basic services without a second thought is really nice. But getting access to said services gets harder because everyone has access. I had coworkers who lived through legit communism and they said it was near impossible to get any healthcare. In Canada we have people dying because they are on waiting lists for surgeries and not enough personnel and operating tables to get it done.
>>69539621
WAAAAH. What do you faggots even want? A bunch of clones? Muh hunger games
It would cost you less than what it's costing you right now.
America pays almost 20% per capita GDP for health care related expenses. Far and away the highest rates in the world, and far from the 7-9% average that countries like the UK and Canada pay.
>>69539245
Private insurance is so expensive because it's colluded with government to remove competition and price transparency esp. with obamacare. My point is that healthcare is a cost that people experience LATER in life. Before Obamacare, lower income people would just simply not buy insurance because they couldn't afford it and often did not need it. That means they could save for later down the road if anything happens. Bernie's tax proposals immediately takes huge chunks of money out of people's pockets with the promise that you save money in the future. Even if we assume that is true, lower income workers are negatively impacted the most. This is because you immediately reduce their disposable income and make it much harder for them to pay their bills as well as save for any other emergencies. My position is to free up the market and allow people to use their own money to save for healthcare costs and purchase insurance at market prices.
>>69539362
When did I advocate our current system?
>>69539661
Keep imagining things. Lemme know when you're done checking your ballsack for gnats
>>69536030
you'll pay for it your whole life, you'll have to wait for your turn to be treated over others who are worse off which can lead to your condition worsening, healthcare is controlled by big government and no innovation or new research in the medical industry because there's no capitalistic competition that makes medical discoveries profitable.
So, thanks but no thanks
>>69539712
I don't know but then again maybe you should have read what I said better because we are in slight agreement it seems
>>69539745
>medicine
>profit
>>69539467
Also the fact that yoru job should not be paying for individual health insurance because it reduces the individual accountability to reduce your costs. The only reason your job does is because it was a non-taxable benefit that they gave during the great depression because the government wouldn't allow them to raise wages. Unfortunately that led to situations where if you changes or lose your job, you could end up without insurance or if your work provides a cheap plan and you are not covered for a major expense.
>>69539621
>Street Fighter
>>69539739
You're balls will be completely eradicated while you're stuck in the waiting line at the ER bruh
>>69537812
it's on Bernie's channel because Rand's argument is retarded and autistic. Bernie's simple question after his spiel was all he needed to show this.
>>69539711
This argument never makes any sense. We have medicare and medicaid already. Both programs are run horribly and costs tons of money. Shoving everyone else on it is not going to fix it. We pay the most because our government is extremely inefficient (probably due to our huge bureaucracies).
>>69539925
I work in it. I've been saved by it many times. I know its ins and out. While you are sleeping and masturbating I am remembering the hundreds of thousands of people we've saved while you ask for papers please like a tightwad
>>69540001
He made total sense. You lost. Trees. Forest. Symptom. Disease
>>69540023
You have clearly never experienced the American healthcare system. It is superior.
>>69539712
>Private insurance is so expensive because it's colluded with government to remove competition and price transparency esp. with obamacare.
I'm surprised that you're not blaming doctors, medical manufacturers, hospitals...heck the industry as a whole. A supplier benefits from information asymmetry. Nothing like being a shitty doctor and having no accountability.
The whole entire industry is borked.
>>69539982
Dumb liberals don't understand Rand's point. He was addressing the fallacious notion that healthcare is a right which is a line people often like to throw out without any regard to what a right really is.
>>69540123
Bye
>>69536030
Pros
>When you get fucked up you don't have to pay a massive lump sum.
Cons
>Constantly paying into healthcare in taxes
>You will be subsidizing every other fuckwits medical care through your taxes
Suddenly you acutely feel those dumbfuck "healthy at every size" peons in your wallet.
>If you have any conditions that aren't immediately life threatening the medical system will drag it's ass forever getting your condition fixed.
My dad got his knee fucked up doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu and it was going to take an entire year just to get his knee MRI'ed, even though he could barely walk. He actually saw an acupuncturist who did her needle thing and then had him mix together some herbs with white wine to get a paste that looked and smelled like baby shit, and smear that shit on his knee each night for 3 nights and it actually worked. We seriously had to turn to chink witchcraft to get his knee fixed.
>Old fucks will flood every clinic you go to because they no longer have to pay to see the doctor
Seriously, if you need to see your doctor you're going to be waiting a month for an appointment or you have to show up an hour early for the walk in period and maybe you'll get in. Old folks are full on autistic about seeing the doctor for any minor ache, and their autism will shift into overdrive if they don't have to pay to get the doctor to inspect the pimple on their ass every week.
Even so I still say socialized healthcare is the way to go, just because of the insane bills I've seen from the US, I think I once saw the bill for a rattlesnake bite come to $20,000, I think I would just let the snake kill me. It's not the best system your looking for, it's the one that's least shit.
>>69536030
Pro: you can be poor
Con: shit quality and you will be poor, because it's so fucking expensive.
>>69536324
i've destroyed this picture and video so many god damn times and yet it still keeps getting posted here by idiots
>>69540082
Have you been drinking too much maple syrup?
>>69540133
You're correct; the whole industry is a whole mess.
Round here we pay about 11% of our income for state healthcare. Don't really feel it. I've had 3 family members benefit from this at one time or another (broken femur, multiple kidney operations, broken arm etc). No idea how much they would have cost otherwise.
>cons
theft
governmental inefficiency
over-regulation
>pros
none
>>69536030
Socialized healthcare won't work with 11 million illegals and mass immigration
>>69540133
> Nothing like being a shitty doctor and having no accountability.
In Canada, you can't actually chose your doctor. Rather, you will be referred to one. This is to prevent good doctors from being cherry picked by the public. The best healthcare comes from asking friends in the medical industry who is the best in a particular field, and then going to a drop-in near them and ask to be referred there.
>>69540001
>This argument never makes any sense. We have medicare and medicaid already. Both programs are run horribly and costs tons of money.
Actually medicare and medicaid offer extremely good value for money - about 1% of your costs under medicare or medicaid go to the government for providing it. Compare that with the more than 20% premium overhead that goes to many insurers today.
Do you see masses of people dying in Canada or the UK? How about the countries with the consistently best ranked health care systems according to the World Health Organization, Switzerland and France? Government can do this very effectively.
20% of our GDP goes primarily to three groups: health providers, health insurers, and pharmaceutical companies. Almost none ends up going to medicare and medicaid overhead.
>>69540163
Us healthcare is expensive because it's partially socialised and heavily regulated. I mean insanely regulated.
>>69539982
The research for medication, medication itself, and medical tools don't grow on fucking trees.
And providing medical care is a service that requires huge investments of time and money.
To suggest that if you don't have the means you should just get it for free, then you're a faggot and should kill yourself.
Medicine is noble, but it's not a fucking charity.
Healthcare is a right much like the right to bare arms. No one is stopping you from getting it, but both cost money.
Fuck you.
You fags come into my pharmacy all the time and just try to bum meds.
No insurance? Can't afford it? Too fucking bad you don't get shit.
>>69540288
>>69540334
Please ram me harder oh cutlet zio dick. More of them. Girthier. Without lube bls
>>69540453
You too
>>69540367
>In Canada, you can't actually chose your doctor.
It's not like America is some magical land where you just choose whatever doctor you want, either.
>>69540248
It's because your opinion is irrelevant.
>>69537812
Paul's response isn't much of a refutation. What about other socialized services like the police and fire brigade, are they slaves?
Paul's idea only works in this very small case, It's not an overall refutation of socialized medical care
>>69537190
>long waiting periods
This must be an Ontario thing, I've never encountered this problem in BC
>>69540646
no opinion was ever given
>>69540597
For family practice, yes.
Go to the ER, and its random.
>>69540561
Funniest part if everyone cites your shithole country for universal healthcare.
Takes hours to fill a single prescription, days to weeks to see physicians, and months for surgery.
It's a fucking joke.
>>69540646
I am showing you a red tomato for $0.12 cents. You still want the brown one with flies on it for $4,438.22. Can't fix stupid
https://twitter.com/girlziplocked/status/715611726192975872
basically
>>69536030
You will pay more in taxes and fees for shit-tier medical care (after much longer wait times) than you would pay, simply buying decent insurance.
If you want to see the level of care your taxes will buy you, simply look at the wonders of the V.A.
>>69540722
Nice lies. It's like you're describing my life even though you're a witch or something? I do all these works. You cannot tell me you know more about my field than you do. Your country is shit
>>69540372
I'm not sure what you are saying. Our federal government spends massive amounts of money on medicare and medicaid. That is 14% and 9% of the federal budget respectively. That is a huge cost for a relatively low amount of people and is the reason why the federal government spends so much per capita in the health industry and we don't even have universal healthcare. Expanding that to cover everyone else would cost trillions of dollars and require insane increases in taxes to cover which would in turn hurt our economy very badly.
http://kff.org/medicare/fact-sheet/medicare-spending-and-financing-fact-sheet/
Are private insurance companies inefficient right now? Absolutely, expose them to the marketplace and competition.
>>69540437
No, it's expensive because we have these stupid middlemen called health insurance companies sitting between ourselves and doctors, instead of something reasonable.
Medical care can never really be an idealized capitalist marketplace, because so much of the nature of medicine breaks with the whole concept of consumers and choice. Do you really choose your trauma surgeon, or the medicines they prescribe for you? Do you shop around?
If the government is the single payer, they have negotiating power while retaining accountability to the public for the sorts of deals they make.
>>69540163
>>Constantly paying into healthcare in taxes
>>You will be subsidizing every other fuckwits medical care through your taxes
Currently Americans are doing both of those with insurance anyway (which is currently federally mandated thanks to obamacare)
Your other two cons seem legit though.
>>69536030
>pros
nothing
>cons
everything
/thread
>>69540367
I thought you could pick your doctor no problem, my family has a general practitioner we see whenever we fuck ourselves up, and generally doctors know who's who in the medical world and isn't going to refer you to a known diversity hire, unless you lucked out and started out with a doofus. Or are doctors forced to refer patients to nearby doctors or something? I know if it's an emergency situation you just get whoever's on call and you have to cross your fingers and hope you don't get the local horse doctor
>>69536030
It's higher taxes you retard. Also it will end up being dogshit.
You will get diagnosis with cancer and the wait list to get it removed will be 3-6 months. It's basically paying higher tax for nothing.
>>69540979
Nah. If you're shit with money and have no brains
>>69540886
>Our federal government spends massive amounts of money on medicare and medicaid. That is 14% and 9% of the federal budget respectively.
That's the amount of tax receipts it spends on providing medical care.
The amount of overhead, that is to say, money that medicare "costs" for things other than providing care is like 1% of their total costs. Compare that to a private insurance company, where 20% or more of premiums can end up being squirreled away as profit and expense.
>>69540855
>American is shit
How about you open your mouth when your currency isn't shit, you actually have gold, gooks don't own most of your land, you don't have a fairy yoga princess as you leader, you actually can smoke weed, and you don't wait 20 years to get a script of antibiotics filled.
>>69541023
Who has died on cancer lists? Gimme their names
>>69540647
Missing the point. He's saying that healthcare is not a right. Police aren't obligated to protect you either.
>>69541042
You're only as good as your weakest link and you play eachother off as fools so Shlomo can laugh at you
/thread
I hear the reasons America has such high healthcare prices is because of lobbying groups that create regulations that hugely restrict supply.
>>69541080
Home Dept will do everything instead. We pay police so they can eat doughnuts. Manlet Rand is a kike jew for kikes. He'll take his kike money. Just not your money
i have already /threaded this. stop posting you fucking faggots
>>69541076
Google it you fucking idiot. What are 7 years old?
>>69541234
Nope. How about you leave the country with your lies?
>>69541027
Okay, but my point is that we obviously can't afford it. Healthcare for anyone would have dramatic budget consequences. But we can actually expose private insurance companies to the market place where they actually have to offer equilibrium prices. Insurance companies are shielded from competition in so many ways that's it's absurd they get away with it. Obamacare only made the problem worse.
>>69541127
>http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-transcanada-1.3397831
>talking about weak links when part of your nation is literally one road
>built by feminists.
>>69540973
Yeah, I'm not too well versed on american healthcare post-obongocare, but that's pretty shit if you're getting double fucked with taxes and doctors bills. Sometimes we have to pay for prescription, but that's not too bad because it's usually cheap anyway, and dental we have to pay for ourselves, but that's not too bad either just brush your gnashers and close your jaw tight when you get into a bar brawl.
>>69536247
this. So you better get sick or injured otherwise you are wasting money.
>>69541373
>we landed on the moon!
No you didn't
>we have nookes
No you don't
>>69540651
It is specific to the specialty. I have waited a year to see a specialist before.Which makes sense, because there is no market mechanism that rewards moving into an area of high demand.
>people advocating for socialized medicine in the US
>subsequently ignoring the VA
Yeah, no thanks. It may work in some countries, but it will not work here.
>>69536030
>Want the best quality medical care government can provide?
>Go to DMV.
>Experience the best quality Customer Service the government can provide.
>>69539467
you completely missed my point. your suppose to get insurance early on so when bad things happen you are covered and the place gets a steady income from you. so example would be 1k people pay insurance but only say in one year 30 need some of the whole bill payed
>>69541407
Or pay nothing and fuck up everybody with mandates when a fatty sits on your liver
>>69540783
So healthcare is the only industry where working as a slave is acceptable?
>>69541273
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/british-columbia/cancer-treatment-long-wait-a-death-sentence-says-b-c-patient-scott-dobbie-1.3011474
U faggot
>>69536030
Only civilized countries with competent governments get social healthcare, sorry m8.
>>69536030
Canadians pay less per capita for healthcare and enjoy comparable service.
>>69541410
Are you retarded?
>>69541461
I'd rather deal with DMV than calling Multinationals over the phone. Especially private car insurance. DMV cost me 48 cents. Insurance almost $200,000 by now
>>69541430
you do realize all that VA bullshit wasn't true right?
>>69541541
That leaf is drunk on maple syrup. Don't pay attention.
>>69541514
We also have very different populations; like it or not, America is a country of massive consumption.
You know what would do this country real good? Killing off everyone who's fucking obese, and then watch our health care costs plummet.
>>69540123
Looking up "Do I have cancer?" on WebMD because you're too poor to go to a doctor is not superior.
>>69541410
That's some top tier healthcare you got there that lets people with this level of delusion walk the streets.
>deflecting only having one road
You can't make this shit up. You can't even have two roads, and you expect me to believe your healthcare works?
>>69541567
If you say so. I know plenty of vets who won't go near the VA because it's total shit.
But hey, free shit man feel the bern
>>69541080
Explain how I missed the point. He's not saying healthcare is wrong as a whole. He's talking about a specific situation, I believe it is you who has missed the point as with many people on this board who keep posting the picture quote
I am free to call the Police whenever I like for help, without going into a contract with them.
That's what Paul was talking about. You shouldn't be able to use the services of a private doctor without first entering a contract - that is what he compares to slavery
>>69541507
He's dead? The Minister said we should be waiting 6 fucking months like you said? Lemme know when Zionists do anything perfect and we'll start too after that
>>69541541
Obey.
>>69540998
Congrats on getting a family doctor. It is really hard, I had one for a while but then he retired. Basically if you go to a clinic that has multiple doctors, you can't just pick one, you get assigned. If you are getting a referral to a specialist (where which doctor really really matters) then you need to game the system a bit.
>>69541682
socialized healthcare*
>>69541638
Yep. We have one road and live in igloos and you have colonies on Pluto
>>69541602
Canadians are also fat, but that doesn't change the fact that it would be cheaper to pay for the fatties under socialized medicine than your private system.
>>69536030
pros:
cons: everyone now pays for the 500 lb tumblr whale and nu males obesity related health problems.
>>69541667
these are the same vets who claim tinnitus and still draw that disability
>>69541682
Isnt there like a junior doctor strike going on with the nhs right now, because doctors are getting sick of the government dictating their wage?
>>69541782
>you don't do this now while paying even more and letting all the fattiness spread like an epidemic
>>69541846
we do it now but its not as bad.
>>69541076
Well my dad for one.
>>69541682
>I am free to call the Police whenever I like for help, without going into a contract with them.
Wrong, you pay for police protection from your local municipalities through taxation.
>That's what Paul was talking about.
Paul was saying that calling healthcare a right implies that you are entitled to force doctors to care for you regardless of their will. It's nonsensical to what people generally hold rights to be.
>>69541922
What kind of cancer. What city. Tell me what happened
>>69541766
Maybe not now, but as obesity continues to rise how long do you think before it's no longer an economic gain?
Plus, the US government is notorious for being fucking retarded with tax money. Even if, on paper, it would save us money, it would cost more (I imagine) in practice.
>>69541466
Sure, you're supposed to get insurance early on, but the US market is completely fragmented, and chances are that you will not stay with the same healthcare plan until you're 65.
Things like losing your job, finding another better paying job, moving states, turning 18, and companies exiting your market will all force you to shop for another plan. And if you had a pre-existing conditions, even if you had insurance all your life, almost no insurance would take you.
>>69541922
no he didn't
>>69538411
You think people who are too dumb to use condoms are going to make regular appointments to get tested for STDs? Aahahahahaha
>>69541800
Free shit, man.
>>69541989
That's kind of what I'm thinking
>>69541310
>Okay, but my point is that we obviously can't afford it.
That's like saying, "we have to keep paying $500 a month because we can't afford to pay $400 a month instead!"
>Healthcare for anyone would have dramatic budget consequences.
Actually you're exactly wrong. The enormous health care costs come in when health is in serious risk, and who doesn't get preventative medicine that keeps people healthy? The uninsured. You already pay for them when they show up at ERs in city ambulances. And you pay more than you would have to if they had a professional helping them to stay healthy.
>But we can actually expose private insurance companies to the market place where they actually have to offer equilibrium prices.
Why would we want to? We're still creating a system then, legislatively, that results in private companies whose sole existence is to be an unseen, well-paid middleman between doctors and patients. How does that system even make sense?
>>69536030
Pros: bernie is a kike niggerlover and will lose so it doesnt matter
Cons: bernie is a kike niggerlover and will lose so it doesnt matter
>>69542064
Is this what qualifies for cancerous shitposting now, Fat Tony?
>>69542064
There's also this, too.
>>69541510
The problem isn't even about giving america social healthcare or not the bigger problem is that the medical treatments have no cap on them so they are massively overpriced in terms of services and medications. They need to price cap that shit.
>>69542043
>Why would we want to? We're still creating a system then, legislatively, that results in private companies whose sole existence is to be an unseen, well-paid middleman between doctors and patients. How does that system even make sense?
works well for the Swiss.
>>69541933
>Wrong, you pay for police protection from your local municipalities through taxation.
By "free" I mean, I am free by my own will. I am aware it's a socialized service.
>>69542210
>socialized
>>69539839
Without profit, where's the incentive for advancements in treatment? You'd be relying on people in the medical fields to work hard just cuz.
>>69541962
>>69541989
BC, lung cancer, took 3 weeks to start treatment. They didn't want to book surgery until it was way way further along and then it was going to be a few weeks and he died prior to the op.
>>69542259
Point?
>>69541973
It wouldn't. There isn't a single public healthcare system that even comes close to the US in per capita expenditure. It doesn't matter how fat you get, you will still save money.
>>69542300
3 weeks isn't long. Did he get checkups and physicals like he should be? Sorry to hear but things will fall. Is it an epidemic? No. You couldve pushed harder and asked more questions. If you were really wrongly done by you can sue. All the best
>>69536030
>>69542300
he didn't go from no symptoms to dead in 3 weeks from lung cancer
>>69542431
Does that tweet by a twit mean anything? Is he a nepotism Drumpf or just another regular Drumpf mong?
>>69541805
I thought this could be a genuine question, but it seems like to asked it in such a way because you believe me to be pro socialized healthcare. Doctors aren't sick of government dictation, most people want the nhs in the uk, it's a very sensitive topic.
junior doctors were complaining about wage decreases, but they are free to join private services if they wish
>>69542487
This
>>69542487
You are an idiot. It is three weeks to start treatment, that means chemo and radiation, you dumb fuck.
Look at all the Canadian memetic factory shills. You know, if you'd just support things that are really beneficial you wouldn't have to spam so hard.
>>69542431
>no fog in first pic
>no fog or clouds in second pic
>fog in 3rd pic
>>69542577
Why would it be three weeks for something simple and why did he die in 5 minutes?
>>69542591
Good eye. You're very good at this!
>>69542259
It is a socialized service
>>69541973
10% of medicare goes towards "improper payments" i.e. waste.
>>69542043
This makes no sense whatsoever. We are already paying for seniors who cost a ton and already eat up huge amounts of our budget. You can't do preventative medicine then; it's too late. Those costs are not going to magically disappear under universal healthcare; they'll still be there. And then you add the rest of the population, which will not be as expensive proportionally, but certainly they'll add to the cost. Under universal healthcare, you are covering more people with a government that is well known for being highly inefficient. That's not a recipe for saving costs at all.
>private companies whose sole existence is to be an unseen, well-paid middleman between doctors and patients
No, I'm talking about health care open to free markets. If there is no point in middleman and people can directly deal with hospitals, then they would be eliminated. I can see value in certain kinds of insurance policies though.
pros: u live longer
cons: u ll die anyway
>>69542377
You seem awful certain about that, do you know the future?
It seems the average cost of, for instance, a gastrointestinal bypass is 23k. Once the state okays this for every fatty out there, you're certain that's not gonna drive costs up?
>bicycles
>>69542623
Why did it take three weeks to start chemo? I have no idea, because the system is shit? Where are you getting five minutes from? It took many months.
>>69542698
What you have now. What we have now. One of these things is not like the other
>>69542667
It is a nationalized service.
>>69542158
>works well for the Swiss.
The Swiss tightly regulate their insurers in ways that would be difficult here legally.
>>69542210
Oh if you're going to that level then yes, you cannot opt out of the state. But that implies anarchy which is retarded for obvious reasons. Regardless, the point is that neither are rights.
>>69542755
I thought it took 3 weeks. Lung cancer isn't something that goes undetected til it's too late like you say. Handle your affairs better. Go to hospital? Have lung cancer? Get a bed. Get treatment. I don't even believe you now
>>69542536
Meh, it was genuine but I'm tired and on my phone so you don't get my A game right now.
That's interesting, though. I didn't know the bit about private services; by chance do you know if one is better than the other?
>>69542790
Those two words mean the same thing
>>69542377
So the government spends already a lot per capita on healthcare, so obviously they should take over the whole system and spend on everyone.
>>69542774
>implying America will do shit like the rest of the world
>implying we have the same cultures
>implying you guys have the hordes of niggers we do
>implying you have hordes of illegal immigrants like we do
Yes, one of these things is not like the other.
I'm curious, how much money do you bring in annually? For someone so in favor of government taxation, I'm inclined to assume it's less than 50k a year.
I suspect socialized healthcare would be a disaster.
But our current system is a disaster too. There's so many problems with it. If you miss payment for one period for example, you're pretty much blocked out of receiving any kind of healthcare insurance whatsoever for months. If you have a serious condition you're just shit out of luck. It doesn't matter if you paid on time for years or paid months ahead at times or are willing to pay double what you missed. None of that matters. The system just locks you out and throws away the key and tells you to go fuck yourself.
If that were the only problem I'd give it a pass since you could say "well just pay your bills on time." But the healthcare you get at organizations like Kaiser is also horrifically subpar. They try to get away with doing the absolute bare minimum any time you see them. If you have a serious condition like melanoma they will brush it off and delay delay delay as far as dealing with it, or sometimes in a worse situation they will shrug it off as inconsequential. They can barely be assed to do anything and most of the time want to get you to see a doctor and then leave as quickly as possible.
I feel like some sort of dual system might be ideal. I dislike the idea of government provided healthcare being the only option because if that's shoddy, you have no recourse to something better.
>>69542966
Why aren't the present costs and outcomes already been reversed then?
>>69542774
One makes people go to a neighboring country for better care, the other doesn't.
>>69542688
>We are already paying for seniors who cost a ton and already eat up huge amounts of our budget. You can't do preventative medicine then; it's too late.
So your plan is, "let the old people die"? I mean, that's kind of a textbook case of a shitty medical system, isn't it? If you can't afford to care for your elderly, your system needs to be fixed.
>Those costs are not going to magically disappear under universal healthcare; they'll still be there.
Some will be there, some won't be. Profit-taking by insurers, which accounts for a large chunk of it, wouldn't really be. And because a single payer swings a lot of bargaining weight, it becomes easier to take on pharmaceutical companies and hospital conglomerates to keep costs low.
>Under universal healthcare, you are covering more people with a government that is well known for being highly inefficient.
So fix it. Other governments are highly efficient. I agree that ours has problems, but I don't think the solution is to just say "aww the hell with it" and privatize all the things. That really doesn't work any better at all.
>No, I'm talking about health care open to free markets. If there is no point in middleman and people can directly deal with hospitals, then they would be eliminated.
The hilarious thing is that you think that would eliminate health insurers.
>>69542910
No, they don't.
>>69542871
You even reading my comments? They don't do surgery immediately, they do radiation and chemo first because it is less intrusive.
>>69543159
I know I'm not the anon you replied to, but I think government by its very nature is not efficient. Democracy does not scale to 300 million people.
>>69536030
Socialized healthcare is not affordable until healthcare becomes automated, it's that simple.
Free healthcare and social security become a pyramid racket ( just like housing ) which is unsustainable in the long run at the current reasonable expense levels unless you have very fast and infinite population growth to support each generation of old people with an exponentially bigger amount of young people who work.
>>69541407
>Better crash my car into that pole, wouldn't want to waste my car insurance
>I should probably stop brushing my teeth to take advantage of my dental plan
The politicians of america should priorities america when discussing these matters rather then their own self interest and virtual signaling
>>69543248
Nobody waits 3 weeks for chemo. Was it 3 weeks til death or months like you changed it the second time
>>69543170
Yeah. They do
>>69543156
It's worse. It's more expensive. When you guys come up here when you're not pretending to be us with your flags and shit we patch you up and ask zero questions. Your state or insurance will pay. When we buy bank insurance and travel to you? I become a Haitian with inflated bills. If a state doesn't even care about her people's health, she's just a bitch
Cons:
Degredation of healthcare as doctors have less reason to do a good job; they'll be paid the same anyway. With free market healthcare, the competativeness involved gives more reason to do a better job.
Higher taxes to pay for wages and equipment.
Longer wait times as people go to see the doctor for free for more minor issues that would normally be handled with over-the-counter medications.
Unreliable workforce as wages are not mandated by supply/demand as they would normally be. With a free market for healthcare more need for doctors would raise wages and in turn cause more people to become doctors whenever needed and vice versa. With socialist healthcare, you always either be in a surplus or a deficit nearly all the time. This can also contribute to wait times.
Socially, less reasons to be a careful individual as there is less of a negative effect money-wise. Kids could be more reckless, parents have less of a reason to teach their kids to take care of themselves, teens or young adults may experiment with drugs or alcohol without fear of a steep medical bill, and so on. All this not only raises the amount of healthcare needed but degenerates society as a whole.
Darwanism.
Pros:
Don't have to pay for healthcare if you have a fluke accident or if you have a illness genetically.
Can afford to go to the doctor for minor but potentially life-threatening issues you could normally ignore.
>>69543597
Down there they get sued for wearing wrong coloured shoelaces
>>69543529
Also the ones who leave are impatient arseholes who want Botox or some shit
>the password is, "PATIENT"!
I WANT IT NAO!
>>69536030
US has among the best cancer survival rates in the world. Also still the leader in medical research.
Liberals can't understand that actions have consequences. There is no magical solution where everyone will be happy, holding hands and singing songs.
There's a reason the proverb "the path to hell is paved with good intentions" exists. Healthcare for all is a good goal, however many will make sacrifices. For example, about 20% of the country's population . Socialized healthcare would eliminate approximately 30% of that workforce, or roughly 10 million people and severely reduce the capabilities of the remaining 70%. Of course, the medical field is predominately women, especially in admin an lower-level positions, and they would be the first losers. Not surprisingly, women are also predominately supporters of socialized healthcare.
muricans have jesus
>>69543529
Now you are just shit posting.
Look at this (not my province but still evidence):
https://www.cancercare.on.ca/ocs/wait-times/systemicwt/
Referral to Consult: The time between a referral to a specialist to the time that specialist consults with the patient. The target for this interval is 14 days.
Consult to Treatment: The time between a specialist consult with the patient and the time the patient receives his or her first chemotherapy treatment. The target for this interval is 28 days.
So three weeks is actually ahead of schedule.
>>69543775
Do we want cheaper and more efficient or do we want way more expensive with earlier graves and a bunch of buzzwords. No matter who paid for that broken leg, we all pay. Pay more. Or pay less. I'm outie now
>>69542688
Health insurance exist for the same reason the lottery exists: Stupid people can't do math. They see a monthly premium of a few hundred bucks, compare it to a 6 figure hospital bill, and think they're getting a good deal, without realizing their insurance premiums will add up to that much over the next 10 years.
>>69543801
So when you go to a hospital for lung cancer it takes you one month to see a doctor. Without even reading your source I know it is a self diagnosed benign melanoma or some shit and ahe walked into a clinic or her GP. Like your father perhaps?
>>69543684
You can look at stats for family doctors, and in the US a doctor spend more time with each patient on average then in Canada. http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health/ontario-doctors-urged-to-set-timers-to-5-minutes-in-protest-over-pay-1.2247428
>>69536030
Pros: You don't get financially bankrupt when diagnosed with a serious disease.
Cons: If you don't get illl it costs you more.
>>69544142
Yes. The prairies pay 50 bucks for all the car insurance and internet and cell phones they want. Does that mean people throw rocks at their car to make false claims? Not really. Go see your doctor. Vote NDP. Don't fucking cry all the time healthcare is the only thing we have left. And God Bless
>>69536324
I would love more head to head stuff between these two guys. POLAR OPPOSITES in political views with no crazy radicalism on either side.
>>69536030
He doesn't address why healthcare is so expensive in the US and instead just says that because it's expensive the government should pay for it same with education. There are ways we can reduce the cost of our healthcare drastically by adding more competitive bidding and simply making the companies more competitive as a whole.
>>69542431
Does preaching for the lower class mean that you got to drive a banged-up tricicle? I think not.
>>69542693
TOP KEK
>>69536030
>>69536766
>>69536936
>>69537175
We have bush niggers that clog er's and walk in-clinics with common colds and such. There is a lot of waste.
However:
>wait times are exaggerated
>cheaper per capita
>healthier per capita
>better drug prices
There is a Jew tier of care. If you're connected, your care is expedited.
>>69536889
And the quality is worse.
both have corruption. socialist health service contracts agencies to takeover parts of the system here who do not have to follow health service code.
liberals love socialist healthcare because they can use it for their own political gain. our system takes 1 billion out of our tax to fund an international health service, to treat immigrants from middle east and africa. i dont care if they lie about it costing less, less than what? than corrupt american system that used to be 100$ annually? be aware that the marxists will use this system at every chance to further their own political agendas.
it is also of no benefit that my tax money goes to people who want to make stupid decisions with their own health. the handout culture of welfare and healthcare makes people lazy. if people know beforehand that insurance premium will go up if they have to use hospital they will be wary of their health, maybe they will reconsider abusing alcohol and drugs if there is a consequence.
>>69536030
bottom line is that it's a dog eat dog world. If you're poor, and can't afford treatment, you will get, and you SHOULD get worse treatment. You are worth less to society. Equality is a meme.
Think about who it really helps. It helps the single mother. It helps the poor person that spends all his money on frivolous things. It helps the failures in life who doesn't know how to save money.
Tell me /pol/ do you want these people to be your equal? Those that don't take care of themselves? Those that have made life-altering mistakes in their lives, not to mention the illegals that you KNOW will benefit from it as well? I sure don't.
>>69539982
Unpaid intern detected
