Let's play a game /pol/

I'll bite, just give me a bit to type it out. Bump in the meantime.

1A. It makes complete sense to halt immigration from areas where ISIS infiltration is a serious risk until the threat is greatly reduced. In fact, we should probably slow down immigration altogether and work on getting jobs for citizens instead of shipping in new people.

1B. Nobody chooses to be a refugee. It's wrong to discriminate based on religion, and it's only going to radicalize more people. Also somehow not all Muslims.

2A. There's too many people here already, and they are literally breaking the law by being here and using our resources. Hell, they can get driver's licenses in some states. The cost of doing things under the table for these people is larger than people realize and it sets a bad precedent globally by not kicking them out.

2B. People only want to stop undocumented immigration because undocumented immigrants aren't white. America was founded on immigration, and everyone has just as much right to be here as you and I do.

3A. Programs like that in general should be at a local level if anything, and honestly giving benefits based on race only furthers a divide in this country. Merit based systems reflect a harsh reality that might need to be changed, but not by disadvantaging other people who are more qualified for whatever reason. Companies aren't racist if it'll lose them profit to be.

3B. Multicultural programs should be expanded, if anything. White people dominate everything, and in doing so make it impossible for minorities who are completely equal to reach the same proficiencies due to hardships that white people simply cannot understand. Diversity should be encouraged to make sure everyone understands everyone better, and to make sure that everyone remains equal and becomes equal in merit.

4A. Western values are very important. I'm not religious, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing the values are overall good for society and things generally go better when there's some moral code to live by. Christianity is being attacked unjustly compared to other religions like Islam, which has every criticism Christianity can have multiplied 100-fold. The death of the family unit is what kills our country most.

4B. Religion in general is stupid and made up. People should determine their own morals, and those should change to adapt the current situation. Forcing other people to abide by your standards is wrong, because who is to say that any one person is more right or wrong than another? And diversity helps us see different perspectives and ways of thinking that allow us to become closer to consensus and peace.

5A. Allow all speech, especially the ugly truths in this country that aren't discussed because they reflect badly on minorities. AQ lot of them would stop being true if the problems were actually addressed. Even liberals should be allowed to say whatever they want. Forcing others to listen is another thing entirely, however.

5B. Hate speech denies others the rights of others, and in general makes a society more divided. Many people are only violent because everyone around them keeps assuming they are, and the best way to combat this is by removing the spread of hateful stereotypes in order to make sure everyone is treated fairly and with respect.

6A. If they're here legally, let them stay. THe general public can take care of that. Otherwise, get out regardless.

6B. No, they have just as much right to be here as anyone else, and deporting them for hate speech is no better than they're supposed hate speech. You'd have to support yourself too for suggesting such a thing.

7A. We shouldn't even be involved if we can help it. They only lower our standard of living and need to help themselves. If other countries want to let them in, go ahead, just make sure they don't launder them here.

7B. The best and cheapest way to help and guarantee them safety is by bringing them here. Anyone who wants to be here should be able to come at any time. They have a lot to offer in terms of culture and it directly removes power from ISIS by preventing more radicalization, since America is on the side of Muslims, not terrorists.

8A. Absolutely. We definitely have the means, the fact that it's evwen an issue still is laughable.

8B. No, every time we intervene it only causes more power vacuums. We have to let the people of those nations who are flocking here en masse take the fight to ISIS there somehow. Not all Muslims.

9A. If it weren't relevant there'd be no reason to censor it. Things won't get better unless the issues are actually addressed, and chimping out about it only makes things worse.

9B. Absolutely not. Enticing racism is only making things worse. The race or religion of bad people is irrelevant to their actions, and there's no reason to falsely claim otherwise. People are people, and have the same probability of being criminals naturally, it's racists telling people they're criminals that causes the disproportionate amount of crime in the first place.

10A. Absolutely. Nothing should be free from criticism so long as the criticism is limited to shoddy ad hominem attacks.

10B. Absolutely not. Criticism against Islam is demonizing people for their faith that doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. Only a few extremists do, and extremists exist in every religion. The exception is not the norm.

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>>68494084
I cri evry tiem

>>68494084
I tried to be give decent leftist arguments since I mainly filter out the underage anarcho-communist bullshit people spout without knowing anything what they're talking about. Hope I actually get some feedback on any of the answers I provided.

Wow, it's like a Brussel's phone lines in here.

>>68496360
>>68496945
>>68497528
>>68498084
>>68498267

Well shit, colour me impressed. I was actually expecting something more along the lines of #2016 #Triggered #NotAllMuslims #KillAllWhiteMen but this is something else.

It seems like you really got into their mind and actually brought out the points they make that seem reasonable if we didn't take into account human nature.

>>68498864
I get criticized a lot for my actual views, but I try to understand the arguments other people are trying to make so I can refute them credibly. It's ironic, because most people don't listen to what I have to say, and that's what actually causes the major ideological divide.

>>68499077
Pretty much this, I know I'm never 100% right with my opinions and I'm willing to listen and change based on good solid evidence presented to me, but it's rare that my own thoughts are never given the same level courtesy outside of my own close friends and family.

What I mostly get is ad hominem, slogans and screaming.

>>68498864
Here, I'll even counter my own left leaning points.

1C. There are more refugees than there are radical extremists according to these people. Honestly they should be the ones fighting ISIS, and they shouldn't need other countries to arm them to do it. They have numbers and they should have a desire to save their country. If they really don't approve of radical Islam, they should be doing more to stop it, and we shouldn't help people who don't help themselves.

2C. The issue here is distribution of resources. Unregulated immigration period is bad because we can't accommodate a population that has a high birth rate, low death rate, a high immigration rate, and a low emigration rate. I honestly wouldn't care if all of the refugees were 100% Aryan, the issue is resource allocation, the fact that nobody wants to leave their native country when it isn't terrible until it gets flooded with refugees, and that it doesn't solve issues, it only creates more. The racism element only comes from people who try to pin the issue on race, and then refuse to acknowledge unfortunate truths.

3C. Merit is primarily based on work ethic, and you can make incentives by giving handouts and handicapping others, but that won't change a bad work ethic, only encourage it. If you want people to be treated equally, then treat them equally.

4C. Diversity is important, but trying to meld everything together kills diversity. When Western vaqlues spread, it's manifest destiny expansionist colonialism oppression, but when Islam spreads it's multicultural? Homogenous societies do better than diverse ones for a reason. Respect differences instead of trying to force one sided compromises.

>>68494084
>>First: close the borders to mass immigration from the Muslim third world.
Open borders are a staple of secular European identity. The human rights and freedoms we enjoy in the Western world would be destroyed irremediably if we forbade the free exchange of ideas that defines us as a society.

>>Second: expel illegal immigrants.
Western civilization was built by immigrants; if it wasn't for immigrants coming into Europe and America, we would still be smashing rocks together and killing one another for scraps of food. Immigrants are the lifeblood of prosperous and just societies.

>>Third: end multicultural programs.
Freedom of speech is an inalienable right in the Western world: we cannot forbid a citizen from expressing his views and opinions. We all benefit from the complementary perspectives on life and ideals cultural diversity brings to our society at large.


>>Fourth: defend, not destroy, Western values. Challenge the self-hatred preached in universities and end the war on Christianity.
Religious obscurantism has been the leading cause of misery in one of the worse period of Western history : the dark ages. Secular ideals of equality among Man and freedom of worship have brought Western civilization out of the clutches of medievalism and into the modern era. There can be no going back to these barbaric times.

>>68499839
>>Fifth: allow more free speech, and especially that which criticises hostile faiths.
Hate speech and free speech are two separate issues. If bigoted hate-speech denies others the right to their own opinion, it is no longer free speech, but rather the suppression of free speech; and that leads to pack mentality and a return to tribalism, which would be the end of democracy as we know it.

>>Sixth: deport foreign hate preachers and let them exercise their free speech at home.
Who are you to judge the opinions of others? Do you presume to be more "enlightened" than others? How can you claim to be right, and others wrong? This is precisely the narrow-mindedness that prevents true progress in society. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me". You cannot be harmed by another person's opinion.

>>Seventh: held refugees where they are, and not by bringing them here.
And imprison them in a war-torn country? They are fleeing their countries precisely because it has been completely destroyed by war. How does restraining them by force solve their problem exactly? They have the right to flee, and we have the moral obligation to help them do so; because if we don't, who then would help us if we ever needed help in the future?

>>Eighth: do more to destroy terrorism centres overseas, whether the Islamic State, Boko Haram or al Qaeda.
Civilians are the primary casualties of these types of military operations. Every time a "terrorist" is killed alongside innocent civilians, it creates 10 more terrorists, and the cycle never ends. We have to stop.

>>68498864
You're surprised? It's widely known that leftists generally have no idea about the reasoning behind conservative principles, whereas conservatives are fairly well versed on leftist ideas because they get shoved down their throats 24/7

>>68499839
>>68499874
>>Ninth: end the police and media censorship over race-based and faith-based crime. Let people know the truth.
What censorship? The media are merely reporting facts. Why would they fan the flames of hatred with baseless speculation? It would serve no one. The media has a duty towards the public, and that is to be as objective as possible in regards to their reporting so as to avoid engendering hate and bigotry towards certain subsets of the population based on over-generalizations and misrepresentations.

>>Tenth: stop demonising all critics of Islam as racists or bigots. Scrap the laws used to prosecute them.
We cannot allow hateful opinions to poison our right to free speech. Every individual has the right to see his personal integrity and reputation protected by law. Personal attacks have no place in a free, civilized society.

Wew, this was much harder than expected.
Those mental gymnastics... I'm exhausted already.
This experiment made me gain a lot of respect for liberals; they have more endurance than I gave them credit for.

>>68499839
>>68499874
>>68499970
I forgot to give my own opinion.
Fuck it, you can take a wild guess as to what it is.

>>68499936
See that's the thing previously I thought I was very left leaning but still gave the Conservatives at the time the chance to present their own arguments. I had expected the same courtesy that was instilled in me as a child but it seems my generation does not share my same upbringing...

I also find it strange with age I have grown closer to being conservative (or more to the point the left has move so far left), but mostly my own beliefs are intact... it is really fucking weird man.

>>68499839
>>68499874
>>68499970

Why is it that /pol/ never fails to impress me. This has been far more civil and well thought out than I expected! Keep 'em coming gents!

5C. What constitutes hate speech? Nobody forces people to listen to anything, and people are free to walk away at any time. The issue here becomes what constitutes hate speech, and who gets to decide. Criticism in general is important in order to get a dialogue going about issues, instead of ignoring them because they don't fit a narrative.

6C. They shouldn't stay if they don't like it here, but if they're here legally then it's not my place to say one way or another, it's the public's. They don't have as much right to be here as anyone else, especially if they're here illegally.

7C. That puts our people at risk. It only takes a few radicals to give a bad name to the rest, even though a few is a very big understatement. If you want more Muslims in our country, the best way to do it is at a time when the threat of terror attacks is low, so they can actually assimilate peacefully without being harassed by an emotional public.

8C. Deterrence works. If natives won't fix the issue, we should if it threatens us. Ideally they'd fix the issue themselves though so we could stay out of it. If we must intervene, then we need to ensure an established government there with decent relations to prevent further garbage from arising. Shouldn't be an issue if their people are in charge and they are peaceful.

9C. It's the fact that disproportionate amounts of crime happen and go unaddressed that causes an issue. People honestly believe that more blacks are killed by police officers than whites, when the opposite is true. They also believe that blacks don't kill whites and blacks more than whites killing anybody, and lying by omission is only causing people to fight lesser to non-issues. Analyzing reality is the only way to change reality.

10C. We're criticizing a religion that produces a disproportionate amount of extremists. That's not a coincidence. Not addressing this fact leaves the cause unaddressed and unsolved.

>>68499409
There's no way to account for everything, but I feel like most of the liberals I know don't think about costs or long term ramifications of their policies. Intentions are not the same as results.

>>68499839

I realize these aren't your opinions, but refuting anyway

1. There's a difference between an exchange and a replacement. What's being advocated isn't an exchange, it's adding in a completely different lifestyle en masse without discussion or anything. Also, the current ideology gets oppressed because it's bigoted otherwise.

2. Europe would have been fine, and our lineage would be fine. The Native Americans would probably still exist if they tried to defend their land when we first got here. We should learn from that mistake.

3. Not everyone benefits, and the issue here is that these programs are federally paid for by tax dollars of citizens for people who usually don't pay taxes. If you want a multicultural hugbox, fine, but keep it local so I don't have to pay for it.

4. That seems pretty pro western values to me.

5. There is no denial of other peoles speech. If they have no response, that's their fault.

6. Depends on the hate speech. If they're calling for the death of the West verbally, they need to be imprisoned or deported, and then imprisoned. Otherwise it's a non-issue of an isolated guy spouting nonsense that nobody will buy. And if they do, the masses can check it assuming natives are still the majority.

7. International law states that refugess are to seek asylum in the first safe territory they can. There are a lot of safe territories a lot closer than North America. Also, we aren't imprisoning them. They're free to up and leave or even fight back. We also have a moral obligation to take care of our own people first, then others.

8. Not if every one of them is dead. Just kidding. I agree that civilian casualties are bad, but infiltration missions can be successful. Honestly it just depends how smart we go about it.

9. The media has bias, everything does. Those facts get skewed to fit a narrative and make a profit. Trayvon was one kid that made millions due to constant coverage, with millions of viewers watching thousands of ads.

>>68499970
10. It's not personal, it's a criticism of an ideology, which has followers, but itself is not an entity with feelings. Personal reputation is not a right either. Uncivilized speech will happen regardless, for any side, but that shouldn't be a reason to not discuss actual issues just because they're about unfortunate truths.

>>68494084
Any of you go to RMIT? We're having a goddamn conference on Marxism. So many degenerate retards.

>>68500337
It's because the left keeps moving the goalposts, and they don't realize they've made slippery slope and actual thing. I've been disavowed by half my family for my beliefs, and they don't even bother to hear me out as to why. Don't get me wrong, you have retards on both ends of the spectrum, but the portrayal of the left has become frightening. My main thing is that social issues should be handled locally, and economics and politics should be government, and a lot fo that should be local too. Blanket policies are cancer.

>>68501722
I had a discussion today with a self-proclaimed anarcho-communist Bernie supporter who wanted all drugs legalized and the age of consent for everything dropped to 16. Political Science major. I honestly can't understand how this wouldn't completely ruin any first world nation.

>>68502205
It's like they're completely oblivious to modern history. Lots of things are the way they are because they keep the country stable and these dumbasses think they found the answer to life and politics in some John Lennon song.

>doesn't afraid of anything
I get the reference

>>68502554
And again, they want blanket reform instead of small scale. It's safer, costs less overall, and tests how well a policy change works. This doesn't work on immigration obviously.

>>68502909
Yeah, they can't even assess risk properly.

>>68502554
>>68502999

And somehow they think nothing bad has happened in Germany, and that every socialist country is flourishing.

It's the schools man, like you said. We're taught that we're the bad guys. We're taught that if I have a car, then someone steals it, and I take it back, I'm the bad guy. It's insane.

Bump, I don't want civil /pol/ to die again.