I'm debating a commie and brought up the Katyn massacre as example, he has so far dismissed all I've said on how the Officers were executed and many educated people were killed as propaganda. Can I have some info from you guys to crush him?
>>68258467
Bumping.
The commies blamed it on the Nazis.
>And then evidence was unearthed that clearly showed the Russians are responsible
So yeah, it was propaganda, but it just shifted blame from the commies to the Germans.
So you have got him on one point or another:
1)Commies committed genocide
2)If it's a hoax, then it was a communist hoax to dirty the perception of Germans in Poland
Here's what he was saying: "That also is not even remotely close to understanding what happened. You are regurgitating propaganda & have absolutely no idea what you are saying.
"Poland had a law saying all university graduates must serve for at least a year in the reserves, thus it eliminated a chunk of our educated class,"
You are assuming all sorts of wrong things, eg that anyone who simply served was executed- only a tiny fraction of army actually were. The officers were asked if they would resist the new state & those who said they would were executed while the vast vast majority were not.
And you are assuming those who purchased a college degree were the "educated class." That also is bullshit.
Actual education, to honest people, is knowledge. And all the knowledge learned via language is the same even if it comes from different sources.
eg:
Live lectures vs videos of lectures.
Expensive textbooks vs free pdf files,
On the job training vs college job training. etc.
Next, a lot of the people killed in the "katyn massacre" were violent parasites who preyed on the working class, eg all sorts of landlords & capitalists and their lawyers. These people, like muggers, have absolutely no value to society and are 100% parasites.
And society should practice self-defense against them."
>>68258467
Show him this video, he'll get really mindfucked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1xzeQy1Lk
>>68259041
here is the document authorizing the mass murders. It has Stalin's signature on top and other generals.
The Russians and Germans also murdered political figures, university professors and so on. And these arent young men who are military age necessarily. Surely he isn't stupid enough to be suggesting that all the people who had an education had been focused right in the Katyn.
>>68259514
People like that will just say that this video is perpetuating establish propaganda that we have bought into.
>>68259556
The quotes inside are stuff I was saying. I said that Poland had a law that made all university graduates serve in the Officers corp for the reserves
So what if it did?
>I'm too fucking dumb to lead a discussion myself, so let's ask my favourite echo chamber what fallacies should I use best to make my opponent give up on me to create an illusion of victory
>>68259974
Also note that the Germans and Russian killed educated and importand individuals who wheren't in that extremely specific age group / cohort
>>68260141
not everyone can be as smart as you, Ivan.
>cheeki breeki
>>68258467
What would you do with thousands of captured well educated Polish officers? They hate communism, communism hates them.
I guess if the roles would be reversed Polish officers would not spare Soviet officers and we would never even find about it and hundred years later everyone would pretend that nothing bad happened. Some filthy communists got what the deserved, not a big deal, righ? Probably captured Soviet officers would die slowly in bad conditions, without food and medication. Executioners would get medals and veneration like they did something good for humanity. But since the roles are reversed...oh bad bad communists.
>>68261426
>I guess if the roles would be reversed Polish officers would not spare Soviet officers
No we wouldn't because we aren't such savages as your Jewish hangmen.
>>68261426
It'd still be bad. There shouldn't need to be mass killings at all, it's detrimental to your cause. The fact it was necessary for Communists to massacre them shows Communism's true colours over all.
>>68258467
It's the jews
>>68261766
>true colours
Yeah, but your memory is very selective. When Americans or Anglos show their colour you forget it very quickly. Because it unpleasent to think about it. And your media never reminds you about it, so you could feel great and patriotic. But your media will remind you about crimes of others, so you can feel hate for them, so you could feel like you are good force, and thy are bad force.
Thak god some people know abbout this .
Katyń masacre was part a larger plan connected to eliminating the Polish "elite" doctors and other educated people to replace them with puppets of communism
It dumped my country into 70 years of of rule under scum ,we still can see the offspring of these pupetsn in polish politics and media
Now financed by germans
Pic.real letter
"Beloved Daddy when will you return"
>>68262225
>Russia
Sir you are basickly the Mordor of Europe
>>68262267
Do you know any good Polish documentaries? I'm working on my Polish and think it would be a good thing to help with it.
>>68262225
Guy, whenever any white person does something wrong it's crammed down our throats for years, same with Anglos and Americans.
>>68259041
>The officers were asked if they would resist the new state
Never heard of it 2bh. And since it happened in 1940 I doubt that the idea of new state was even present. Ask him to back that up.
Also you may point out this lesser know event.
>The Polish Operation of the Soviet NKVD security service in 1937–1938 was a mass operation of the NKVD carried out against purported Polish agents in the Soviet Union during the period of the Great Purge. It was ordered by the Politburo against the so-called "Polish spies" and customarily interpreted by the NKVD officials as relating to "absolutely all Poles". It resulted in the sentencing of 139,835 people, and summary executions of 111,091 ethnic Poles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD_%281937%E2%80%9338%29
>>68262619
>good polish documentaries
You want a source of info (documents)
Movie
Something to present in class ?
>>68262649
Holy shit, you guys get kicked around a lot.
>>68262823
Just something to read or watch, I've got a okay handle on the language and like History so I thought I may as well ask around. A movie would be good, something they'd put on TV.
>>68262619
Do you think Polish documentaries can be..you know...biased? It is like Jewish shit with increasing the numbers of dead from Holocaust. Poland also wants to feel a greater victim, to unite its people and get symapthy for it from others. Poland brainwases kids from school and they blame Russia for everything, just like blacks blame whites for everything.
>>68261426
1920.
>>68263032
Oh god XD
When it comes to propaganda and braiwashing you are on the first place in world list faggot
>>68263032
I think anything can be biased. However, the fact that events like this occurred in many Soviet occupied nations cements it.
>>68263032
The number of victims of the soviet crimes often came from their documents. But you're of course free to show when something like that was done by Polish side.
The guy I was debating hasn't replied at all yet, think I may've did him in. Or he's in a different time zone.
>>68262945
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x138ofn_katyn-2007-part-i-english-subs_shortfilms
Part two is in the propositions ;)
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/wwii/special.studies/katyn.massacre/katynlrc.txt
There is also preaty much files on wikipedia on this topic
>>68263496
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_%281919%E2%80%9324%29
It says that many soviet soldiers have died in horrible conditions in your POW camps too. I am not sayng that this justifies Katyn, but the death is a death. No matter whether it is slow from a disease and hunger, or from a bullet to the head.
Atleas we not choped them into pieces, guted them with swords or made experiments on them like Japanese did on their POWs.
>>68264090
Polish-Russian commision established that it wasn't inentional so it's completely different than a bullet to the head ordered by most importatnt soviet offiacials, you disgusting worm. Also far more people were dying in soviet pow camps because it was even a bigger shithole than 20s Poland.
>>68264090
Considering the epidemics of the 1920's, and the fact that your scum invaded a newly reconstituted and severely impoverished country, the fact that your maggot-ridden drones died in those camps isn't that shocking. Oh, and guess what, a joint committee of Polish and Russian archivists chokeslammed the shit out of idiotic accusations such as your own back in 2004. Of course, you're too stupid to understand that all the blather about Red Army scum dying in Poland was just Gorbachev's propaganda to minimize the shame of Katyn, but then again, you're Russian, so it's not exactly surprising.
>>68263866
Thank you, I'll bookmark it and be sure to visit it after work,
>>68264090
Our soldiers were in the exact same conditions
And its basickly your fault because you robbed half of our country and the fields and houses you didnt rob you burned to the ground
Btw.war criminals dont deserve any better than this .
All units that were taken into captivity were the mobile units that didnt menage to break out of combat and leave with budionnys 1 st army or were the ones that directly attacked Warsaw and Hełm
These units were involved in mass sloughters of civilian population devastation of local economy ,theft and a long list of war crimes.
>>68264090
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_prisoners_and_internees_in_the_Soviet_Union_and_Lithuania_(1919–21)
Yes?
>>68264522
>Polish-Russian commision
Man it is all diplomacy and rhetoric. Dig this. You are telling this is not intentional, because local population also suffered from diseases and hunger. But when the same happens about deaths of people in Ukraine(what they call Holodomor), suddenly it all becamse intentional although Soviet government could not guide diseases and famine to kill only Ukranians. Its all propaganda and compromises.
At what time this Polish-Russian commision happened? During Yeltsin presidency when he thought he could be drunk and friends with everyone? You think all this not influence this?
And now even when president Medvedev for all Russia apologised to Polish people for Katyn, does the Polish propaganda forgive us? Of course no, but you forgive Germany. Funny thing.
>>68265321
>At what time this Polish-Russian commision happened?
Maybe you should read the wiki article that you've post, dumb petuh. It's all there.
>Russia apologised to Polish people for Katyn, does the Polish propaganda forgive us?
I have no problem with Russians, but slimey soviet apologist like you are getting me angry. You're a serf to kikes and a traitor and enemy of Slavic people, you're no better than a self hating western cukc.
>>68261426
>when a nog kills someone, the killer is bad but if the victim killed the attacker he would be granted a medal
>le double standard
pls ivan, ur better than this
>>68264822
So you basically proving my point here >>68261426
If i were Soviet Commissar at that time and you were Polish officer in front of me spewing this kind of bullshit in my face, i wouldn't even wait till the end of your speech, i would just pul out my pistol and BOOM in your forehead and bye bye durak.
>>68259041
your "friend" is a dyed in the wool commie and doesn't want to hear anything you tell him. All the more reason to shake him up with evidence.
>>68261426
Зaткниcь дypaк.
>>68266381
Yeah. I went to Plebbit land to shake around the Communist subreddits and try to convince them. I've spooked him alot though.
>>68266510
He'll thank you in a few years keep pushing
>>68266697
I will. There are so many commie subreddits it's crazy. I started by asking if he's lived under communism.
>>68265954
You have this delusion that nothing soviet can be good and anything soviet is pure evil. I disagree.
Can you just for a moment allow a short burst of thought in your head that maybe, just maybe - that it is Poland who betrayed Slavic people?
>>68267078
>I disagree.
You're a stupid sovok so that's not really surprising.
>Poland who betrayed Slavic people?
You personally are a traitor to Slavic people (and so is every other sovok for that matter). You're like a German signing songs about welcoming refugees - both of you overdosed on a different variant of Jewish lies.
>>68259041
All i can see is
>Soviets killed everybody who opposed their regime
No amount of word play and calling people uneducated will change that fact.
They oppressed both "parasites" and working class with no regard for our will.
This is a piece of propaganda if i ever saw one.
Why he is trying to justify Katyń? Their justice wasn't welcome and was executed only with their interest in mind. This tiny fraction of army were the most important people we had.
>>68268731
He justifies the killing of Lawyers and landlords and other "parasites" as well. I had family that were forced to work in Communist Poland and have some first hand accounts from them. I asked if he had any experience with himself or relatives living under Communism and didn't get an answer, so I'm assuming he hasn't. He thinks that the Holodomor had very little deaths and that the Politburo spread around food to stop famine in the affected areas. (I don't know if the Politburo did this or not.)
>>68268731
He justifies the killing of Lawyers and landlords and other "parasites" as well. I had family that were forced to work in Communist Poland and have some first hand accounts from them. I asked if he had any experience with himself or relatives living under Communism and didn't get an answer, so I'm assuming he hasn't. He thinks that the Holodomor had very little deaths and that the Politburo spread around food to stop famine in the affected areas. (I don't know if the Politburo did this or not.) He also pulled the "Well lot's of people died under Capitalism as well! Look at the native Americans and Slavery!" card.
He Posted again:
The Soviets invaded [a country which was helping the Nazis invade other countries & defending the Nazis.]
FTFY. Good for the USSR.
This is the accepted way of what happened
Wrong again. Your spin/misunderstandings are not the "accepted way" and there is not one way historical events are understood.
a good chunk of people were killed
I believe it was a tiny fraction of 1% of military people (who again were helping the Nazis invade other countries) who ended up being killed.
educated people such as lawyers,
No no. Lawyers are parasites and not "educated" in anything of any real life use. And most "teachers" are indoctrinators & propagandists trying to kill the minds of their students- dumb them down for endless laboring. And so on.
[pigs] who had graduated university/college
And that's not education. It can be a way a person educates themselves but it generally isn't.
And don't spam me with links. I've already studied this and know what really happened. And it involves the Polish being essentially allied to the Nazis.
Deal with it.
Holy shit, he thinks Poles helped the Nazis. Get me off this wild ride please.
Shit my bloods boiling.>>68269744
>>68269538
>>68269744
Show him this ASAP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eGo-NEcEVI
>>68269538
It's a willful self-delusion, he's beyond saving imo as it's pretty a religion for him.
For shit'n'gigglez you can educate him on this cheerful parade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk
I'm surprised how actually angry that post made me. It's fucking delusional.
>>68270543
This. Let him be.
>>68269538
There's also this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_%281940%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
>>68258467
>I'm debating a commie and brought up the Katyn massacre as example, he has so far dismissed all I've said on how the Officers were executed and many educated people were killed as propaganda. Can I have some info from you guys to crush him?
Fucking google it, the information concerning it is overwhelming at this point.
Nonetheless remember that trying to prove Katyn to any other Soviet atrocity to a commie is literally like trying to prove the Holocaust to a Stormfag or the Armenian genocide to a hardcore Turkish nationalist. The reason they do not believe it has nothing to do with the quality of evidence and everything to do with their ego, self esteem, a need to have a goal in life, feel like a good person and rationalize years of involvement in some ideology.
>>68269538
>>68270473
Here's a soviet kike Krivoshein collaborating with nazis.
you can't win against a Russian or commie lover because they only believe what is in the official soviet records, and here's a hint at what is contained in those records: nothing
>state event or statistic
it is not documented in any soviet records, it must be western propaganda
just like the fucking war thunder devs
![tumblr_ma3qlim1k21rcoy9ro1_1280[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/4KVlAWe.jpg "tumblr_ma3qlim1k21rcoy9ro1_1280[1].jpg")
>>68271179
forgot the pic, fugg
>>68271275
I fucking showed him the signed document from Stalin's desk authorizing the massacres, but he can't speak Russian so it's fake.
>>68271275
>you can't win against a Russian or commie lover
I think sadly this. Only solution is a bullet to the head... how ironic it may even sound.
He thinks that Lawyers and people who go to university aren't educated.
>>68271275
>hurr War Thunder is le biased because it doesn't promote "USA USA USA USA PLANES #1!!!!!!!!"
Back to your Battlefield, burger.
>>68262619
Not documentaries, but have you read "the eagle unbowed", "the The Auschwitz Volunteer" or "a question of honor"? There were a few others but i can't think of them at the moment. They're pretty good and were recommended to me by polbros.
>>68258467
Why are you speaking to that cultist?
He's a cultist, his skepticism is proof of his wrong.
>>68272801
No I haven't, I'll be sure to look for them. I haven't been reading as much as I should to be honest. Been busy with work.
Wtf is going on? Why are there so many experts?
>>68266204
>reading french
Get out Jacques
>>68269744
They did
Read more about Czechoslovakia annexation. uneducated motherfucker
>>68268077
is that guy a RUSSIAN NATIONALIST talking about IMPLEMENTING SOIALISM AND COMMUNISM???
I don't understand russians..they are so fucked up..how can you be a nationalist AND a communist???
>>68274622
They annexed it through a ultimatum and the Czechoslovakians capitulated. The area was also ethnically Polish.
>>68275495
"Annexation" of Poland y USSR was through an ultimatum and the Polish army capitulated. The area was also ethnically Ukrainian and Belorussian.
>>68276468
There was no ultimatum, it was an invasion that abolished the Second Polish Republic, they never surrendered as well.
>>68258467
>propaganda
If you have Polish roots you should just punch his goddamn fucking face in.
Show him the blood from his face and tell him there's your fucking proof, you sick fuck.
>>68277293
>they never surrendered as well.
Kek yeah, they just left their country instead of fighting. They literally left their army and their nation under the German occupants.
Also, don't forget that lands, that were "annexed" by USSR, were conquered by Poles in 1920 from.... surprise, from USSR!
>>68278289
Can't punch through the internet.
>>68278353
And before that it was captured by the Russians from Poland-Lithuania. The land grab chain goes on forever.
>>68278762
Austrians and Prussians as well.
>>68278762
Yes, but those land weren't Polish, they were Ukrainian and Belorussian.
Also, read something about how do Poles behaved themselves in Western Ukraine in 1920-1939 and think why do Ukrainian nationalists hated Poles so much
>>68279548
>weren't Polish
>Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
>Ukraine
>Belarus
>during that period of time
I know you are grasping at straw right now but at least try.
>>68279548
Kek, Belarus and Vohnyia were Polish-Lithuanian before the partition. The Ukrainian Peoples Republic also helped the Poles against the Soviets in the 20's.
>>68280012
We are talking about 20th century, mate. No PLC for more than 100 years.
And what I'm doing is destroying the myth about ebil Commies and saint Poles.
>In 1923-1926 he was the Polish policymakers persistently pursued a policy aimed at assimilation of oppressed peoples. For this purpose the Government of Poland divided the country into two business areas: Poland A, which included indigenous Polish lands, and Poland "B" - mostly Western and Belarusian lands. To different parts and was conducted under different policies. For Poland, the "B" artificial containment policy applied socio-economic development and the full withdrawal of concessions to national minorities. July 31, 1924, a law by which it proclaimed the Polish state. Began closing Ukrainian schools. The Polish government tried to obliterate the very concepts of "Ukraine", "Ukrainian". Ukrainian lands migrated Polish colonists that have received the best land. During 1921-1929 he was here pereselylosya 77 thousand Poles.
>>68280536
Actually no >>68278762
But of course you chose whatever the topic is about to control the situation and show that you are right and they are wrong.
>myth about ebil Commies and saint Poles
Nobody belives Poles were always said, but there are actual fact that confirm how fucked up Commies were.
Butthurt belt is not called Love belt for a reason.
>>68279548
>how do Poles behaved themselves in Western Ukraine in 1920-1939
Ukraine, no such thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRbBHo2sGXE
You mean how Ukrainian nationalists behaved themselves? And after 1945 that whole region was subjugated to anti-Polish propaganda from the Soviets apparatus, over exaggerated and/or detached from reality.
>Began closing Ukrainian schools.
Wow Poles are so evil. Also give sources to what you're quoting.
>>68280837
>Nobody belives Poles were always said, but there are actual fact that confirm how fucked up Commies were.
How can you measure the degree of evilness? I suppose nobody can, so Stalin and commies and Hitler and nazis were basically the same. But then so were Polish authorities.
>>68281449
>Stalin and commies and Hitler and nazis were basically the same.
Pic related.
>But then so were Polish authorities.
Hahaha NOOO.
>>68281449
>but then so were Polish authorities
Last time I checked they were not responsible somewhere around 23 million people in Russia itself.
Or 48 million in China thanks to Mao.
>>68280922
>Ukraine, no such thing.
Polish kindness and holiness as it is.
>You mean how Ukrainian nationalists behaved themselves? And after 1945 that whole region was subjugated to anti-Polish propaganda from the Soviets apparatus, over exaggerated and/or detached from reality.
Maybe because it's Poles repressed Ukrainians? Or you're trying to deny this fact?
> Also give sources to what you're quoting.
http://vai.in.ua/arhiv/3a/12.pdf
http://ukrmap.su/en-uh10/273.html
>>68281788
not responsible for deaths
>>68281788
The War wasn't Commies fault.
>>68281976
Are you trying to tell me that Death caused by Mao was not Communism fault?
>>68282159
Don't mix Russian and Chinese commies
>>68282332
So you are pretty much denying it.
Well, it's like trying to talk with the wall.
I hope you enjoy your day regardless.
>>68282416
Denying what?
Or maybe it's a good idea to sum up all crimes of "white man" and cry about it on daily basis?
>I hope you enjoy your day regardless.
Thanks, regardless it's a night not a day now.
Dobranoc
>>68282416
>Arguing with vatniks
What did you expect?
>>68283047
Nothing really.
>>68282994
cпoкoйнoй нoчи
