Torture-
Trump: "We have to play the game the way they're playing the game. You're not going to win if we're soft and they're, they have no rules," Trump said in an interview taped Saturday that aired Sunday morning.
Trump also rejected the argument that American hostages could be treated worse by America's enemies if the U.S. engaged in torture, insisting that "they're doing that any way."
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/06/politics/donald-trump-torture/
Why he's wrong-
"The CIA's harsh interrogations of terrorist detainees during the Bush era didn't work, were more brutal than previously revealed and delivered no "ticking time bomb" information that prevented an attack."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/politics/cia-torture-report/index.html
"Although torture does not produce reliable information, it may persist be-
cause it satisfies psychological needs in times of stress. Specifically, it counters a
sense of desperation, reassures interrogators that they are in control, and bestows
a feeling of empowerment, at least in the enclosed world of the interrogation
room (Carlsmith & Sood, 2009)"
http://cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/costanzo_effects_of_interrogation.pdf
Continued in the next post
>>68128525
The efficiency of torture is irrelevant. It's a fun way to deal with those that don't agree with us.
Was very effective in Rwanda in 1994 and very effective in the Balkans throughout the 1990's.
You kill one of ours and we massacre your entire village and make you watch.
It's only fair.
I'm a Trump supporter, but this torture thing is my main issue with him.
I mean, I get it. He legitimately wants to destroy ISIS (as opposed to establishment who wants to prolong Middle East adventures forever) so he wants to use every tactic at his disposal, but torture is unspeakably bad and serves no practical purpose--the victim will say anything just to end the pain.
its not about information,pussy cucks
>>68128863
He said he wouldn't force the army to torture people from ISIS, saying he didn't want to break international law.
>>68128525
OP's post was torture to read, but no one is denouncing that
MAGA
NSA-
"Republican presidential front-runner Donald Trump said he’d be OK with restoring the post-9/11 Patriot Act and that he errs “on the side of security” in the ongoing debate over the NSA’s phone-snooping program."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/2/donald-trump-nsa-phone-snooping-program-i-err-side/
Why he's wrong-
"The review found that the NSA’s bulk collection of Americans’ phone metadata, justified under the Patriot Act, was responsible for initiating investigations in only four of the 225 cases detailed by the New America Foundation and that none of those four prevented attacks.
That counters claims by Obama and other administration officials that the program has prevented 50 terrorist attacks."
"The analysis concludes, “Surveillance of American phone metadata has had no discernible impact on preventing acts of terrorism and only the most marginal of impacts on preventing terrorist-related activity, such as fundraising for a terrorist group"
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/1/13/review-finds-nsametadatacollectionhasntstoppedanattack.html
"A member of the White House review panel on NSA surveillance said he was “absolutely” surprised when he discovered the agency’s lack of evidence that the bulk collection of telephone call records had thwarted any terrorist attacks."
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/nsa-program-stopped-no-terror-attacks-says-white-house-panel-f2D11783588
Talking up torture is a way to try to scare or deter
Probably won't work with ISIS, but still
>>68128849
Except that doesn't work either. You okay with losing a family member to kill 10 strangers? That's what it comes to, you kill a village, they send a suicide bomber to do 9/11. Sure, they lost more people but they got more zeal now and some justification.
>>68128525
>Waterboarding is ineffective torture.
No shit, it barely qualifies. It causes no bodily harm and is really uncomfortable. Ooooooh next we'll be tickling the answers out of them, where does the madness end?
>>68128863
Grow some balls.
Torture is no worse than anything else. People die either way. We suffocated and burned alive Japanese people in WW2. Certainly torture for them but it isn't considered torture.
Highway of Death in Iraq ... same thing. It's just a term people have to make themselves feel like good little Amnesty International Samaritans.
>>68129191
They kill 3,000 in a terrorist attack, we execute 30,000 in reprisals.
If we kill 10 of them for every one of us, the Muslim population will be 100% exterminated before the American population.
>>68128849
I don't think desiring America to be like Rwanda or the Balkans during wartime is a good goal. Commanders from both areas have been charged with warcrimes.
>>68129004
Really? Well, that's good.
That's the thing about Trump and why they're calling him a "flip-flopper." A flip-flopper is someone who says the opposite of what he/she said years ago, while pretending he/she never said the first thing, all to stay in line with the currently correct talking point. What Trump does is evolve his view after being given more information, which shows me that he's reasonable.
>>68129391
That is totally ridiculous. Only an infant would believe this could happen or even be acceptable by American's.
>>68129429
I'd love to see The Hague attempt to extradite an American for war crimes.
They can't even grab the Sudanese President, and he's had an active warrant for over half a decade.
I ain't scared of no ICC, and we haven't even ratified the Roma Statue. The ICC can suck my American cock.
>>68129601
Already is accepted by Americans, or are you not familiar with Iraqi and Afghan death totals since 2001?
We just have "politically correct" ways of categorizing it.
>>68129391
and by the time your stupid plan is half way through, you'd be selling two thirds of your country to china to get money to make more ammo for your drones, while muslims gain more sympathizers and become the new jews.
>>68129260
>Grow some balls.
It's easy for you to say that all snug under your blankie.
>>68129601
Israel does that officially.
"10 arabs for every Israeli soldier".
When an Israeli soldier is kidnapped or killed they just roll in and shoot up some shitskins.
And it's VERY effective.
>>68129680
No, we'd just invade the Islamic Republic of Canada and take your oil.
>>68129391
3 billion muslims, so USA's population is going to take a serious hit. And sure it's nice to think hypothetically 'we kill all the muslims and it solves everything', but it's not how reality works. Look at where the invasions in the middle east got us now.
I mean, 9/11 killed what, 3000 people? Let's skip over the war/death aspect of that event. Look at home, how much rights and privacy did americans (or even us canadians) lose over it? The government checks every single bit of data you produce now, you can't go to the washroom without them knowing, they can put away any person they want for any reason whatsoever for life. That's where your idea of 'kill them all before kill us' gets you.
>>68129103
>NSA is good
Now it's just low quality bait.
Are the government shill even trying?
>>68129661
Yes and those civilian death totals were obscured until the war diaries were released by Wikileaks.
The escalation of violence you speak of would eventually leave the US weak enough for a foreign invasion by another super power.
>>68129661
Americans don't accept overthrowing secular leaders and predator droning weddings and all that shit. People want ISIS dealt with and for us to leave the Middle East forever.
>>68129882
are you 5 ?
>>68128525
He is not wrong because he does not mean to use it for gathering info, that is just the excuse, he is for torture as a punishment and like all of us would take great joy in knowing muslims having their balls cut off and force fed.
>>68129971
Why is killing Muslims morally wrong? How is it different from squishing insects?
They are savage foreigners with a crazy foreign culture and barbaric religion.
Why shouldn't the whole thing be eradicated by the means of biological weapons?
Serious question.
>>68129937
Very good points.
This is what most Trump supporters need to understand.
It appears Trump will grow the Executive branch's power and as a result more of our liberties will disappear.
>>68130164
I can't answer the moral question but I will agree with you that Muslims are a plague. A plague that seems to get stronger the more we use direct force against it.
It's a difficult problem but I don't think torture or indiscriminate bombing will solve it.
>>68130340
Can't get any worse for you, you are already a police state. Trump can only make things better for normal people.
>>68130624
>A plague that seems to get stronger the more we use direct force against it.
Direct force was never used against it. Only against the secular democratic leaders of Muslims countries. Of course killing secularism makes it stronger.
Why don't you use direct force against Saudi Arabian theocracy? Trump will do just that.
And there isn't a thing that indiscriminate killing doesn't solve, proven by Stalin on multiple occasions.
>>68130624
Direct force was never put on muslims since the ceusades that was a victory.
Killing dictators like sadam onky helped muslims because their religion was surpressed under the regime.
If actual direct force was applied islam would be fucking gone as a problem within a decade tops.
You fucks are either idiots or shills MIDF.
>>68130862
>Why don't you use direct force against Saudi Arabian theocracy?
>Trump will do just that.
>>68130960
He already said Saudis were behind 9/11.
When he wins he will attack the spider nest and burn it.
>>68130960
Fuck off ahmed your day is coming.
The function of torture is not to extract information, it is to terrify the enemy into inaction. When Trump says "torture works" this is what he means.
It's not about the torture being effective, it's just about it existing. It will deter people from attacking. Similar to how we use nukes to deter people. War has no rules
>>68129186
It's pointless and sets a terrible precedent.
We should simply kill them wholesale.
I'd be in favor of executing all prisoners on the spot instead of trying any sort of interrogation.
>>68130664
Police State? Not exactly. We're getting there but we still have many freedoms that other countries can only dream about.
There's no reason to give them up.
>>68130862
If the US population supported wiping out Muslims by a large majority (maybe 65%+) I'd say that might, possibly, maybe work.
If we tried that now there would be a large liberal/hippy grassroots movement that would weaken the extermination process which could possibly allow them to recover in stronger numbers.
This is obviously conjecture but still I don't ever see this happening in our lifetimes.
>>68129971
Superpowers don't fight each other anymore because nukes.
>>68129876
That might work for them but wouldn't be acceptable by Americans.
Looks like about 75% of Israelis believe Palestine shouldn't be recognized as a state so that policy might make sense there.
https://news.vice.com/article/poll-finds-little-support-for-palestinian-state-among-israeli-jews
REMINDER THAT TORTURE FOUND BIN LADEN
>>68131698
Anybody who cries about "muh NSA" and "muh internet complete anonymity" is just a moron anyway. If you're using technology you will be watched if there's a reason to suspect you. It's been like this forever, see the mafia & phones.
You can't expect freedom on a piece of technology. Your only freedom is talking face to face with someone. Anything else and your information will be captured & stored.
Anyone who posts anything on the internet, over the phone, etc they're not comfortable coming back to haunt them has already made their first mistake.
Not to say I agree with the NSA/mass surveillance, but even if they "repeal" the NSA it will still happen in the shadows. I'd rather worry about what we can change: getting people back to work, integrating our immigrant communities instead of letting them in, en masse, to form ghettoes while sucking down welfare while paying no taxes, and stop promoting slavery abroad for our cheap made by a child sweatshop garbage.
trump is right.
People whose view of the world is at the comic book level think that fighting fair is more important than winning even when national survival is at stake.
>>68132514
>Anybody who cries about "muh NSA" and "muh internet complete anonymity" is just a moron anyway. If you're using technology you will be watched if there's a reason to suspect you. It's been like this forever, see the mafia & phones.
>you will be watched if there's a reason to suspect you
Suspicion can generate a warrant from a judge so I totally understand and agree with that.
>You can't expect freedom on a piece of technology. Your only freedom is talking face to face with someone. Anything else and your information will be captured & stored.
You might be confused on the word freedom here. A reasonable person can understand a web host or an ISP collecting information and storing it but the federal government has no constitutional backing to collect and analyze the data of citizens without suspicion.
>>68128525
>itt none of you assholes know how COIN works, even you OP
OP, citing a bunch of recent news articles does not help your case. the U.S. is terrible at COIN operations. We never learn from our mistakes, and to make matters worse the 4 year election cycle makes it difficult to fix our problems. The current cycle is we focus on Hearts and Minds, a concept the the Brits invented but forgot the meaning off. I will give you the NSA stuff has some credibility to it.
Our only good example of American COIN was in the Moro insurrection and the Spanish American War. This was due in part to decentralization of command, allowing company level officers make decisions that fit the region they patrolled. If that meant killing everyone associated with the insurgents and torching a village, then they would do that. But if being effective meant building schools then thats what we do.
The U.S. generally goes in with too many dudes, expecting a quick victory and we apply force in the improper way. We did wonders in Afghanistan when it was just SF, but when we applied big army methods to what should have been an SF run operation it started to really get shitty. ROEs for U.S. troops was one of the biggest factors working against us. The guys we are fighting don't have any. You can probably make the connection as to why. MRAPs restricted the area of travel and mosques couldn't be fired upon, even when the insurgents are shooting at you with RPGs.
Our problem is that we let the organization of the beast get in the way, there is a level of human connection that is required. But that should not be allowed to overshadow the objective of killing the enemy and securing the area.
Trump is Orwellian as fuck which is scary considering what a coward he is.
He's not far off from acting like Stalin.
>>68132514
>Not to say I agree with the NSA/mass surveillance, but even if they "repeal" the NSA it will still happen in the shadows. I'd rather worry about what we can change: getting people back to work, integrating our immigrant communities instead of letting them in, en masse, to form ghettoes while sucking down welfare while paying no taxes, and stop promoting slavery abroad for our cheap made by a child sweatshop garbage.
>but even if they "repeal" the NSA it will still happen in the shadows
Why do you think it would be any better with the governments authorization?
It would be possible to use data collected in court against you if it was legalized.
