We was Moors and Muslims And French and shieet
>>68104193
What happened to them?
Oh, they got their asses fucking kicked. Big surprise...
>>68104193
Moors were ruling France when we did the Crusades, the Inquisition and all those terrible things? It kind of makes sense.
>>68104193
Lol when did they rule France or even all of Spain for that matter for 700 years?
They ruled France during the hundred years war?
>>68104279
Why were they there? Because they showed up uninvited and killed people.
>>68104193
Moors ruled France?
Moors were this black? I thought they were more moroccan skin.
>>68104380
Well duh, that's why the English had to take back France for the evil white man.
>>68104193
Is this tweet from 700 years in the future?
>>68104380
>>68104458
Parts of Southern France were ruled by Muslims for a time.
It's part of the reason why the Reconquista was started. The French had enough of their bullshit and pushed back all the way to the southern tip of Iberia.
>>68104387
Only people they killed were Visigoths, who weren't really an organized force.
They got poofter pounded by Charles Martel, Charlemagne, and eventually the people who were fed up with niggers.
Matter of fact, Moors were predominately Arab/Berber before they took over Spain. Niggers were a small part, increasingly common within the Moors into its later stage.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Moors being subverted by niggers is a factor in why they got so decisively smashed like disabled children
>>68104355
Moors never ruled France wtf are you talking about?
And they weren't fucking black, they were brownish like morroccans.
Black people should stop with this nonsense and just accept the fact that the only thing they invented were mud huts.
>>68104623
Nice one Canada
>>68104193
They look badass though
They only ruled the extreme south of France until maybe 900 AD, and by 1400 AD they were reduced to just a city in Granada. It would have been cool if half of Iberia was Arab and the rest Spanish/Portuguese. Lots of Spanish culture is in debt to the Moorish legacy left behind
>>68104701
What? Moors never ruled France? And here I was, thinking I had another reason to invite them as much as I can into my country. Thank you for ruining my tolerance moment racist Croatia.
I thought they're called the Moops?
>>68104623
holy shit good post
>>68104760
> in debt
No, they're indebted to us for teaching them how to wear t-shirts and stop shitting in the streets.
>>68104790
>>68104843
As so is most of the world
>>68104193
the only good moors a dead moor as true now as it was centuries ago
>>68104623
>>68104193
>Moor Empia!? See! We wuz Kings and shieeeeeeet honkey!
>So you admit that Blacks imposed slavery on others as well, specifically white people in this case?
>.... SHIEEEEEEETTTT FUCK U WHITE BOI, YOUSE A RACSIS MUDDAFUCKA WHITE DEVIL.
>>68104623
Based Leaf bringing the bantz.
>>68104193
Moors were Arabic looking.
This sort of shit shows how blacks secretly think white people are superior. They grasp at anything which shows they also had a heritage to be proud of. They hate their own actual heritage of tribals and meek civilizations instead inserting themselves into reflections of European history.
It's sad.
>>68104193
> African Muslims
The Cordoba Caliphate was made by an exiled ruling arabic family. So NOT BLACK.
> France
What ?
>>68105006
t. Alberto Barbosa
>>68104193
>Muslims constantly cry about "muh crusades"
>make no mention about how they conquered Christian Spain, north Africa and almost the entirety of France
>>68104680
Askia Songhai referred to the Arabs and Berbers of North Africa as "The White Tribes."
But hey. What's history to these fucktards, right?
>>68105177
>almost the entirety of France
Don't feed the trolls.
Actually if you wanna learn something, here's a little thing about the battle of Poitiers.
> Charles Martel wasn't there in person.
Yes, it's kinda anti-climatic but he wasn't there. Only his army.
> It was not a muslim invasion (at least originally).
Charles Martel was at war with the Duke of Aquitaine (they tends to be assholes) and the Duke realised he couldn't win alone so he hired a muslim army from his neighboors in Al-Andalus.
Except he apparently forgot to pay them and the huge mercenary army turned on him, choosing to pillage the country instead. The Duke ran away to Charles so he could stop their progression, which his army did in Poitiers.
>>68105177
The crusades made more harm than what they tried to fix
The Abbasids were actually a relatively peaceful nation until the arrival of the Crusaders. Then when the Crusaders left, the Abbasid Caliphate was so weakened that the Mongols had a field day with them. Then the Turks came and fucked everything up. I don't think Arab culture has really recovered after the Mongol invasions. Most of the irrigation systems in Mesopotamia were destroyed and since most of the able-bodied men had died in the war, they went into disuse
As well the Crusades weakened greatly the Byzantines which facilitated the Turkish conquest. I'm not so sure how long the Byzantines would have lasted though. An alliance with Russia would have been amazing
>>68105500
>The Abbasids were peaceful
>Conquered half the known world at the time
A fucking leaf.
>>68104193
WE WUZ CAPETS SHIT
>>68105177
umayyad bro?
>>68104193
>ruled France for 700 years
MY SIDES HAHAHAHAH
CHARLES MARTEL FUCK THIS BITCH
>>68105577
Inherited from the Umayyads and Rashidun
Accualy remove teh leaf :DDDDDD
>>68105177
That's because the Islamic conquests actually benefited yurup, bringing in peace through unity, scientific advances and trade, as opposed to the Crusades which just killed millions and destabilised the entire region, replacing educated and reasonably benevolent shariah rule with a primitive feudal system of warlords where the guy who commited the greatest war crimes got to be boss.
>>68105770
Seconded
The Saracens were pretty bro tier, the ones that were bastards were the Ottomans/Turks
>>68105695
>Peaceful
>Didn't return the land, but instead kept ruling it as the past Arab scum did
>"It's totally different you guise!"
A fucking leaf.
>>68104623
straight to /r/4chan
>>68105401
>and the Duke realised he couldn't win alone so he hired a muslim army from his neighboors in Al-Andalus
can i have citations for that m8? never heard or can find anything on Odo hiring a Muslim army, only a lot of "the Ummayads invaded Aquitane " as a part of the continuing conquests northward through spain
>>68105848
well, they all looked the same to us back then
>>68105770
>crusades
>a few battles
>"killed millions"
>"destabilised an entire region"
A fucking Indian.
>>68105500
Wow, you have your history wrong m8.
Abbasids used to be in power but in 1078 the Turk Seldjoukides took Jerusalem and Syria. That's why the Christians were not allowed to do their pilgrimage anymore. Problem is, the 1096 crusade didn't try to differenciate. They started by fighting the Turks because they needed to go through Anatolia (and the poor crusade got crushed by them) but when in Syria and Palestine, they mostly fought the arabs (and that's why they took so long to react, they used to be under Seldjoukides domination just before the crusaders arrive).
Almost two centuries later, the situation changed A LOT. Saladin and his sons militarized the muslim society, the Latin States got weaker and weaker, Mongols rekt everyone and finally the Arabs got rid of the last christian land in Middle-East after the failed attempt to take Egypt during the last crusade.
AFTER that time, the Middle-East is considerably weaker and the power now reside with Mamlouks, militarian enuchs. The arabic world got considerably backward in terms of freedom, arts and science while the european society did the opposite. More important, it's not possible for europeans to go beyond the middle east and contact China and India, making them immensively rich.
>>68104355
Eat shit ahmed, France has never be ruled by mudslim.
>>68105577
leaf is righ actually
also theres a difference between conquest and assimilation.
>>68105855
Yeah, because breaking up a unified empire into tons of small, resource poor kingdoms is definately going to result in peace and stability.
>>68104627
Yeah like five year.
>moors
>black
>ruling france
>>68104193
>And France
What the fuck
>>68105918
Why are you even trying? You've obviously never opened a history book.
>>68104355
top kek
why does nobody else get the joke
>>68106037
Jared Diamond and Josh Green don't count as "history books" Leaf.
>>68105902
>Odo
Eudes. And he allied himself with Munuza, a muslim general who tried to create his own kingdom in Cerdagne.
Except Eudes kinda betrayed him by not giving the support he promised and Munuza got rekted by a very annoyed Abd Al-Rahman (Cordoba Caliph) who decided the troops now in France might as well pillage the country.
Every serious historian will tell you the invasion wasn't about conquest at all.
>>68106082
Don't pretend you know what humour is, Hans.
>>68104627
What? The moors were defeated by Charles Martell at the battle of Tours and consequently drove them out of france. This was in 732, the last muslim rule was ejected from Iberia when the emirate of Granada surrendered in 1492
>>68104193
This shiet is bullshit, im blonde, green eyes. The white genes are stronger than this.
>>68105770
>the Crusades which just killed millions and destabilised the entire region,
Yeah, it's not like the Outremer was in a constant state of war between Egytians, Arabs, Persians and Turks or anything. And there weren't gigantic civil wars that toppled dynasties. The Caliphates never fought, right? They were living peacefully together and not bothering their Eastern Roman neighbour.
>>68104623
Top zooozles, Anon
>>68104623
hahahaha 10/10 bantz lad!
>>68106168
STARTED
S T A R T ED
start
/stärt/
noun noun: start, plural noun: starts
1. the point in time or space at which something has its origin; the beginning of something: "he takes over as chief executive at the start of next year" synonyms: beginning, commencement, inceptionantonyms: end
â–ª the point or moment at which a race begins.
â–ª an act of beginning to do or deal with something: "I can make a start on cleaning up"
â–ª used to indicate that a useful initial contribution has been made but that more remains to be done: "if he would tell her who had put him up to it, it would be a start"
â–ª a person's position or circumstances at the beginning of their life, especially a position of advantage: "she's anxious to give her baby the best start in life" synonyms: advantageous beginning, flying start, helping hand, lift, assistance, ... moreantonyms: handicap
â–ª an advantage consisting in having set out in a race or on journey earlier than one's rivals or opponents: "he would have a ninety-minute start on them" synonyms: lead, head start, advantageantonyms: handicap
2. a sudden movement of surprise or alarm:
>>68106168
>Tours
Poitiers. And several battles after that.
>>68106233
I thought you implied the french pushed them into the southern tip of Iberia, my bad
>>68105922
Yes and no
The crusades were initiated as a call for help to combat the Selyucids by the Byzantines, the retaking of the Holy Land was a secondary objective in the beginning
The Middle East was already weakened after the impact of the Crusades. Basically right before the Mongol invasions the Saracens were vassals of the Turks
>>68104193
Grand worple.
>>68106300
>I thought you implied the french pushed them into the southern tip of Iberia, my bad
I have French ancestry, and I pushed your mom on to my southern tip, so it's kind of the same.
It's funny because the black muslims who help to conquer Spain were something like second class citizens so they got the worst lands in the peninsula.
Also when almoravid and almohade arrived (mostly niggers) conquered the other muslims because they weren't good muslims.
Basically thanks of niggers, muslims got reconquered.
>moors were black
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello
fucking blackwashing of othello that created this meme
>>68106322
>The crusades were initiated as a call for help to combat the Selyucids by the Byzantines, the retaking of the Holy Land was a secondary objective in the beginning
Yeah no, only the Byzantiles believed that. If you want a real reason, it's more about Urban II wanting to send the most annoying european lords far away so they stop waging war in Europe.
> Basically right before the Mongol invasions the Saracens were vassals of the Turks
No... they were vassals BEFORE the crusades already.
>>68104193
So you saying that blacks ruled through violence and oppression?
News to me
>>68105116
>> France
>What ?
Look around. The guy was right the Moors rule France.
>>68106428
You don't even have a anti-burqa law.
>>68104623
you motherfucking leaf!
>>68106135
>Except Eudes kinda betrayed him by not giving the support he promised
yeah it's a bit hard when Charles Martell is ransacking your land, twice
>also what the fuck has this got to do with "Eudes paid for a Muslim mercenary army, didn't pay them, so they pillaged the country"
>>68106428
Now that's just now.
You can blame the Germans for that.
They sort of have a history of destabilizing the continent.
>>68106185
The Arab world was fairly stable around that time. If I'm not mistaken the last Arab siege to Constantinople was around 800 AD. The Byzantines actually had a fairly strong empire around 1000 AD (perhaps the most stable they ever were). The invading Turks from Central Asia were probably the ones who warred the most there
>>68104193
It's a crime for white people to conquer foreign territory but when it was blacks..WE WUZ UROPEENG KANGZ NIGAZ!
Blacks owe spain, portugal and france reparations.
>>68106135
>Every serious historian will tell you the invasion wasn't about conquest at all.
funny every serious historian I've spoken to said it was
>>68106480
>"The Arab world was fairly stable around that time."
Fairly stable in conquering everything around them.
>>68104623
Well posted Canada.
>>68104790
>>68104623
Tip top internet points
never forget
https://youtu.be/DhlvJ7jyYBg
if these niggers identify themselves with the criminal, barbaric and animals muslim invaders, they will get their ration of true spanish hate.
>>68106416
Source for your first statement?
And the second statement is half right and half wrong. They were vassals around the First Crusade but later on they regained most of their military might
>>68105770
>golden age.
>islamic invasion good, christian crusades bad.
mohamed detected or leftist historian detected.
>>68106451
We don't need it since we barely have any muslims. You, on the other hand are unable to enforce it in some neighbourhoods of "France".
>>68106607
>Spain
>Ravaged an entire continent
Ok
>>68106467
>"Eudes paid for a Muslim mercenary army, didn't pay them, so they pillaged the country"
It's the short version. Eudes allied himself to some unaffilated muslims (mercenaries), failed to his words and paid the price.
>>68106625
No invasion can objectively said to be wrong or right, but the main purpose of the Crusades was left behind as the war raged on
>>68105770
False, Islamic conquest led to the fall of mediteranean trade routes, then like a cancer spread with navy and pretty much lead to the fall of the age of antuiqity.
Muslims are so backwards and retarded they believe causing the great fall into the dark ages is somehow fucking golden.
But wait! we have things to offer you that we will now claim as our own! taken from you!. GOLDEN AGE of INBRED ASSHOLES.
>>68105500
Stop smoking weed and praying to the east before you decide to post. This should be a general rule.
African Americans need to realise moors weren't even black
>>68106135
> Abd Al-Rahman (Cordoba Caliph) who decided the troops now in France might as well pillage the country.
>the invasion wasn't about conquest at all.
you tend to to launch a massive expedition through Navarre and capture cities like Bordeux, you might as well claim Alexander the greats conquests where "nothing about conquest"
>>68106615
>They were vassals around the First Crusade but later on they regained most of their military might
That's exactly what I said, they were vassals BEFORE the first crusade
> Source for your first statement?
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paix_de_Dieu
strangely there's no english version of this page, are they hiding informations now ?
>>68106655
Do you even understand your pic ?
>>68106761
There were in France to pillage, not to install another caliphate, everyone was abondantly clear on that, in sources on both sides.
>>68106670
>Eudes allied himself to some unaffilated muslims (mercenaries), failed to his words and paid the price.
so i asked for a citation for that particular thing, since there is no mention for it anywhere, you proceeded to tell me about something utterly unrelated, then repeat what you said first with no citations and about as much information as before? starting to doubt your credibility m8
>>68104193
>Ruled France for 700 years
fucking niggers
>>68106656
False. We explored a new continent, ours explorers were murdered, we saw people eating hearths and such disgusting sub-humans habits, so we destroyed them. Still the queen protected the pleb, and this is why latin america is shit today, all these mongrels trying to act european. The smallpox and other diseases did most of the job, we should have finished it, but we didnt and this is why there are millions natives while in USA there is thousands.
>>68106625
>Muslim invasions bad
>non muslim invasions good
I can do it too. Not to mention Al-Andulus was highly romanticized by most Europeans.
>>68106772
I see, you should choose your words more carefully
I found this page: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croisades. My French is pretty mediocre but from what I can tell a more direct cause was the one I explained (as well for the English Wiki)
>>68107011
That flag...
>>68106938
The Spanish explorers were murdered because the natives welcomed them in open arms and they betrayed their trust by kidnapping Montezuma and Atahualpa
Latin America is mostly shit because of the racism that goes on there. People try to act white when they aren't, they should instead be proud of their native heritage
>>68107022
>"My French is bad, but you should choose your words more carefully."
Leaf...
>>68104193
>Thinking North-Africa was ever black
>>68106822
I think you'll find that everyone was abundantly clear that they were in France to install a caliphate, and that the Muslims were flying dragons, hence why they beat Odo so easily, i mean seriously m8 all the sources say that
>see look how easy it is when i argue a point like you
>Implying we WUZ not KANGS
>>68107133
>Kidnapping Montezuma
Leaf, the Spanish lead a rebellion of all the Mexican tribes against the Aztecs, which wiped out those human sacrifice-worshipping bastards.
>racism
Now we begin to see the root of all your stupidity. You're a leftist.
>>68107133
>kidnapping Montezuma and Atahualpa
lol no
read about the first expeditions and stop taling out of your ass
>>68104457
>>68104776
>reading comprehension
>>68106848
I don't know what to tell you man, open an history book, not an internet page made by journalists.
>>68105092
It's also ironic how they align themselves with people who also enslaved them, and still enslave them, and who destroyed the only noteworthy empire West Africans they descended from ever had, Mali; all because they are so insecure about being able to compete with whitey.
>>68107300
>I don't know what to tell you man
well you can start by giving me some citations, you might be surprised how many history books I've got access too
>>68107251
What are your sources for how the first expeditions were? If I'm not mistaken the Spanish first settled in Haiti/Dominican Republic and wiped out the native population
>>68107230
To then enslave them. The Aztecs weren't the nicest civilization though, I agree with that.
I'm not a leftist, but just trying to see things objectively. Kind of sad how you pinpoint to politics with my arguments. Does being tolerant make you a leftist?
>>68107349
What were the other noteworthy empires in Africa sans the Maghreb area? I would say the Ethiopian Empire. I think most of their territory got conquered by some Turk expeditions though
>>68106027
Maybe that's why I tan so easily
>>68107445
Now you're truly acting like a Redditor.
>>68107445
>If I'm not mistaken the Spanish first settled in Haiti/Dominican Republic and wiped out the native population
yes you are
>To then enslave them
False, the only slaves there were niggers. Indians were protected by the crown.
>>68105500
Sounds like it did a lot of good to me.
Arabs talked shit and got hit.
>>68105770
Uhm, no, the Muslims raided and plundered anything they could touch in the Mediterranean, dooming European nations from their valuable trade routes and giving the Muslim world a big edge over all else.
Shariah wasn't the worst form of governance for its era(though its the worst form of governance today) but the Muslims are just as shitty to other people as anyone else has ever been.
They were and are NOT in any moral high place to criticize others. That said, thankfully we shitkicked those Muslim shits as hard as we have in history so we aren't all stuck in little Baghdad, 2016 without computers or anything fun. Because that's how it'd be in cancerous Islamic society.
>for 700 years
When this meme will die?
>>68107011
The point is that shit just happens. Each group looks out for its own interests, lionises its own heroes, and remembers every atrocity committed by other groups while ignoring the ones it commits.
>>68107750
The Reconquista was the most glorious part of European history.
>>68107771
Except for whites. I don't really get that about you guys.
You demonize your own history and glorify people who have tried to enslave and conquer you for over a thousand five hundred years.
Something I hate about niggers is how they constantly accuse whites of "white washing" history as they simultaneously turn history into fiction based on delusions and not actual archaeology or science. Whites for the most part wrote everything down and tried to learn everything they could about other cultures.
Blacks didn't write anything down or remember anything from their OWN history, little stupid shits.
>>68107861
Generation after generation fighting the moor to recover our land.
>>68107445
They didn't slave the indias due that the church considered them as humans.
>>68104193
Topkek
>>68104627
>The French had enough of their bullshit and pushed back all the way to the southern tip of Iberia.
And Europe will do it again.
>>68108050
cool map
>>68107133
>kidnapping Montezuma
You know he went with them on his own because he though the Spaniards where gods? His own people threw rocks at him at the very end of the conflict against the Aztecs vs Spaniards and the rest of the natives tribes.
Also most natives where whipped out by disease, there are only few communities of natives, we don't "act" white, we are mestizos who where though to act that way.
>>68108053
Yup but before that our Queen became the protector of them after Colombus returned to Spain with some natives. There were explicit laws agaisnt slavery and such.
This triggers Alfonso X.
>>68104193
> complain about slavery and colonialism to this day
> take pride for the 0.1% time frame in history where Spain was held by Moors
>>68105770
*tip babouche*
>>68107942
>Except for whites. I don't really get that about you guys.
Democracy sets ideological groups up, and people identify more strongly with those groups than with their national, racial, religious, or cultural identities. You're not watching collective white suicide, you're watching a conflict between groups. Leftists grow in number by parasitically converting rightists, so they don't care what colour their converts are. Rightists grow in number by having children, so they have a much more biological perspective.
>>68104193
Source on the painting?
The so called muslim invaders were Alans (one of the barbarian tribes from the north of the caucasus).
They migrated and settled in north africa, then sent 7000 soldiers (how can 7000 soldiers occupy spain? That's 1 soldier for more than 100 square km?) to aid the visigoth kings in some war.
Niggers didn't come to spain til late XX century. There was no muslim invasion in 711. The muslims who came to spain were caucasians.
>Pic, One of the first niggers that I saw in spain was in a MUSEUM dissecated, el negre de banyoles. We sent it back to africa 15 or so years ago to be buried.
>>68104623
lets gooooo
>>68104623
>une maudite feuille
>>68104193
Yea, you may laugh, but this is actually true.
>>68108050
You guys definitely race mixed with them though and if you did a 23andme test today it would show african dna
>>68110373
>>68110577
No you wuzn't.
>>68110373
Not really. They were mostly berbers. Some historians suggest that between the berbers were some vandals and alans too and this is why the muslims were involved in the civil war. Blacks were a minority, and arabs just a mixed elite, like Abderramán III, his grandmother was a blond basque.
Most of the population was the muladÃes, iberians conversed to islam (if you read the chronicles of the invasion you will understand why so many converted) and the mozarabs who were just iberian christians.
There are people that never take into account the natives and always talks about atabs and visigoths. There were million iberians, estimated in 6-7 million people. They didn't evaporated and visigoths and berbers were a minority among them.
>>>68104193
>>>68104279
This fucking this
>we wuz kangz dis land is ours
Oh, you were kings? What happened after that? Oh yeah, you got fucked like every inadequate empire did, via conquest.
>>68104193
Nice try but they never ruled France for 700 years, only parts of Southern France and definitely not that long. Don't people go to school anymore? Charles Martel doesn't ring a bell anymore for these fags?
>>68110373
Maybe partially true for Spain but not for France, you fucking retard. Go open a fucking history book or fuck off.
>>68110577
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16138912
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00194.x
>>68111279
>they never ruled France for 700 years, only parts of Southern France and definitely not that long
See this:
>>68107750
>get invited to the peninsula by a Visigoth trying to get the throne of a decayed kingdom in constant internal conflict
>immediately backstab him and start taking the land
>can't fully conquer it in over 700 years of fighting with advantage in military numbers
>get blown the fuck out in a fraction of that time when the numbers start to even
>after the place gets rid of them it starts going forward culminating in the age of dicoveries and enslavement of all the niggers you can imagine
>w-we
>>68104193
>WE WUZ KANGS ENSLAVING, TORTURING, RAPING, AND KILLING ACROSS YUR-UP
>REPARATIONS NOW. SLAVERY WAS THE SLAVERY, TORTURE, RAPE, AND KILLING ARE THE WYAT MANES INVENTION
why take niggers seriously?
>>68104355
Fuck you ahmed
We conquered you for more than 130 years
>>68104193
REMOVE MOOR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=414mrPgK5Yk
>>68110577
I don't need to give my dna to the jews to know what I am.
I am an iberian, I still live in the land of my forebears. My surnames comes from the reconquista. You don't consider me as a white man? Ok, I don't give a fuck. Don't come to Spain. I dont need you aprobation, fucking leaf.
>>68104193
>France
Lol nice job knowing your own history blackies
>>68105641
Underrated
>>68107180
Arabs conquered some black and if they accepted Islam they could not be sold into slavery. This is why you had blacks among Moors.
>>68104701
Sad part is they love to suck up to the Arabs and Muslims. If they knew what the African slave trade really was they would hate middle easterners more than anyone. The Arabs took a 1000 times more blacks as slaves than Europeans. The black population in the Middle East is very small, because they castrated males older than 8. The women were sold into sexual slavery. If they got pregnant the baby was killed. Also it lasted for 1200 years. The U.S. Only had a majority of black slaves for 50-60 years max.
>>68104193
>>68104623
Kek'd heartily
>>68105401
The greatest defense of Christendom was by the Byzantine Greeks, who blunted wave after wave of Muslim depredations, and took the brunt of their main forces for centuries
