has communism been tried without authoritarian governments? Why are you guys so anti communist?
Because you will need to force me to stop being capitalistic, so either its individualism or authoritarian socialism/communism.
>>68083036
free territory in Ukraine during Russian Civil War (Makhno would've been the only type of authority because he led the black army), and catalonia in the Spanish Civil War were communist areas. Communist State is an oxymoron. Socialism is fuckery.
>>68083711
is right
Literally numerous examples from the Taborites of Czechoslovakia, to the Diggers of the 17th century, to the Zapatistas of the 20 century.
>gee I wonder why
Marxism is the single greatest cause of preventable human misery to ever exist.
>>68083036
You need to read a book, nigger.
Communism by design can happen only after socialism. And socialism is a dictatorship in the name of proletariat. And national-Socialism is not an exception.
Proletariat btw is not "working class". Working class is a meme. Proletariat is people, who have no means of production and/or no knowledge to use them.
Today everyone can buy simple tools and learn anything on internet.
So what you want to implement, when you are preaching communism - is the rule of retarded hobos.
>>68085521
I'm pretty sure that is capitalism bro. Marxism is pro-capitalism by the way. If you think this is incorrect then you need to stop meme-ing and pick up a book for once in your life.
>>68085521
The Cold War is over anon, you can stop blaming a simple economic theory on everything. The Great Leap Forward failure was down to stupid ideas like getting rid of pest eating sparrows.
>Communism, being an eminently economic institution, does not in any way prejudice the amount of liberty guaranteed to the individual, the initiator, the rebel against crystallising customs. It may be authoritarian, which necessarily leads to the death of the community, and it may be libertarian, which in the twelfth century even under the partial communism of the young cities of that age, led to the creation of a young civilisation full of vigour, a new springtide of Europe.
>The only durable form of Communism, however, is one under which, seeing the close contact between fellow men it brings about, every effort would be made to extend the liberty of the individual in all directions.
>Under such conditions, under the influence of this idea, the liberty of the individual, increased already by the amount of leisure secured to him, will be curtailed in no other way than occurs today by municipal gas, the house to house delivery of food by great stores, modern hotels, or by the fact that during working hours we work side by side with thousands of fellow labourers.
>With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible. Without it, it necessarily becomes slavery and cannot exist.
>>68085652
There is no such thing as capitalism outside of marxism theory btw.
Today it`s a meme, but also a timebomb.
>>68083036
Because Rocky IV taught me everything I needed to know about politics. Rocky III taught me about life.
>The use of the word libertarian to describe a new set of political positions has been traced to the French cognate, libertaire, coined in a scathing letter French libertarian communist Joseph Déjacque wrote to mutualist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857, castigating him for his sexist political views.[19][20] Déjacque also used the term for his anarchist publication Le Libertaire: Journal du Mouvement Social, which was printed from 9 June 1858 to 4 February 1861 in New York City.[21][22] In the mid-1890s, Sébastien Faure began publishing a new Le Libertaire while France's Third Republic enacted the lois scélérates ("villainous laws"), which banned anarchist publications in France. Libertarianism has frequently been used as a synonym for anarchism since this time.[23][24][25]
>>68085521
What about Colonialism if we relate it to percentages of the global population at the time? Furthermore we should add slavery into the equation since the colonial countries grew rich on this trade.
>>68083711
What about anarcho-syndicalism, though?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
>>68083036
>communism
>without authoritarian government
Pick one you dumb nigger. If you want to redistribute wealth, someone has to decide how to distribute it.
>>68085610
>communism by design comes after socialism
Marx predicted it would come after socialism. Socialism isn't a dictatorship, it's an umbrella term that can mean anything from a welfare state to a company owned by workers.
People with no means of production are the working class. Buying tools to do shit is them moving into bourgeoisie territory. But it'll never do much to people who already own great tracts of land and entire factories.
>If only we could try the right kind of communism.
>>68085652
>>68085758
>hundreds of millions of brutal deaths for non-functional political thought are not enough evidence to utterly dismiss that non-functional political thought
>They [the Marxists] maintain that only a dictatorship—their dictatorship, of course—can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up.
>>68083036
Communism can't be tried without authoritarian governments.
That's one of the the problems with it .
>>68083036
Early European settlers in america tried it and it failed miserably.
It was a disaster.
Good luck getting a government to abolish itself after gaining total control of its constituents, tho.
>>68085995
Anglo colonialism improved quality of life and life expectancy for its colonies. It's removal returned things to their....natural state.
>>68083036
Without literally everyone on board or an authoritarian government, you cannot implement communism. It wouldn't work anyway even if everyone got on board, because it discourages competition and individualism.
>>68083036
you cannot create prosperity through collectivism, you can only destroy it because it is incompatible with any concept of self-improvement.
The only wealth you can possibly create with communism will be centralized, the 1% wont have 80% of the wealth, the .00001% with have all if it.
>>68083036
Communists centralize production, which mean the state is authoritarian by default. If you have no choice and you're forced to work for a specific government entity then you have no freedom which contrasts with a capitalism society in which you can quit and find another job or simply live off the land - growing crops and building your own home in gray territory.
Marx was full of shit. The proletariat uprising is neither inevitable, imminent, nor desirable.
Communism will never happen.
Not only communism don't work under anything.
Is the fastest way to destroy the will of the people and kill their soul.
It's funny how people go apeshit over a swastika but don't mind someone walking around with the hammer and sickle thing. Communism is the devil work.
>>68083036
Because we Anglos aren't like slavishits or chinks with their insect like mentality of huddling around each other for fucking safety in numbers
We make our own way in this world relying on our on merit to secure our own interests
>>68083036
Communism is innately authoritarian. Bakunin saw this right away.
>>68086137
Communism is a theory of distributing resources anon. It does not say anything about mass politicial purges and famine.
Would you blame democracy for Agent Orange?
>The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution. But it will be instituted only by there being more and more people who do not require the protection of governmental power and by there being more and more people who will be ashamed of applying this power.
Here, have some of this free context.
The Communist Takeover Of
America - 45 Declared Goals
http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm
>>68083036
>without authoritarian government
burkina faso in the 80s. look up Thomas Sankara
>>68083711
you're full of shit. if everyone's needs are met, there's no need for a market.
a market for liberty necessarily means that those cannot participate in the market have no liberty
>>68086084
> Marx predicted it would come after socialism.
Yes, this is the basis of his theory.
> Socialism isn't a dictatorship
Yes it is. Dictatorship in the name of proletariat.
What is not "dictatorship in the name of proletariat" is not socialism. For instance social security is not socialism.
No matter what cultural marxists tell you. They are fucking liars.
> People with no means of production are the working class.
So if you can buy a drill and chisel, then you are not a working class? Seems legit.
> Buying tools to do shit is them moving into bourgeoisie territory.
So you are basically reinventing marxism.
Then go on /b/ and argue with bernies about what they want to see instead of marxism and how would you replace cultural marxism, that leads to dictatorship of socialists in the name of proletariat.
If you dont understand the mechanism, then go read the book.
>It is my firm conviction that if the State suppressed capitalism by violence, it will be caught in the coils of violence itself, and fail to develop nonviolence at any time. The State represents violence in a concentrated and organized form. The individual has a soul, but as the State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence.
>>68085758
who the fuck gave the pests guns and shovels to dig mass graves? fuckers!
>>68086565
>distributing resources
That's marxism
read the fucking communist manifesto and try not to shitpost next time
>>68083036
You do know that Marx never worked a day in his life right and that he had servants?
And that he was all for destabilizing a country to form an oligarchy and reap all the wealth and destroy the middle class?
>>68086573
>everyone go full on anarchism
>civilization slowly start reorganizing itself in communities
>soon it's feudalism
>communites start growing
>it goes thru monarchy, fascism
>back to democracy
??? I don't think I understand the appeal of anarchism.
>>68086577
>not wanting to fight an atomic war is a victory for them
jesus fucking christ we really should have killed communists on sight, they are literally fucking insane.
>>68086873
anarchism is for fedoras and children exclusively
>Gandhi was a self-described philosophical anarchist,[215] and his vision of India meant an India without an underlying government.[216] He once said that "the ideally nonviolent state would be an ordered anarchy."[217] While political systems are largely hierarchical, with each layer of authority from the individual to the central government have increasing levels of authority over the layer below, Gandhi believed that society should be the exact opposite, where nothing is done without the consent of anyone, down to the individual. His idea was that true self-rule in a country means that every person rules his or herself and that there is no state which enforces laws upon the people.[218]
>>68086573
> without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions
And this will happen, when you take somali and sent it to space. Until they will invent family and culturally-relative groups of families become nations. And then it`s back to earth.
>Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan (1890 – 20 January 1988) (Pashto : خاں عبدالغفار خاں,) was a Pashtun political and spiritual leader known for his non-violent opposition to British Rule in India. A lifelong pacifist, a devout Muslim,[3] and a close friend of Mahatma Gandhi, he was also known as Badshah Khan (also Bacha Khan, Pashto: lit., "King Khan"), Fakhr-e-Afghan (pride of Afghans) and Sarhaddi Gandhi (Urdu, Hindi lit., "Frontier Gandhi").
>Ghaffar Khan's Muslim pacifism was based on the anarcho-pacifist ideas of Henry Thoreau and Leo Tolstoy.
Good luck enforcing it without one.
>A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth even glancing at, for it leaves out the one country at which Humanity is always landing. And when Humanity lands there, it looks out, and, seeing a better country, sets sail. Progress is the realisation of Utopias.
>The Soul of Man under Socialism is an 1891 essay by Oscar Wilde in which he expounds a libertarian socialist worldview and a critique of charity.[1] The writing of The Soul of Man followed Wilde's conversion to anarchist philosophy, following his reading of the works of Peter Kropotkin.[2]
>>68085521
>Marxism is the single greatest cause of preventable human misery to ever exist.
That's capitalism actually. Killed hundreds of millions over the last 500 years.
Rummel was a rabid anti-communist so those figures are even more laughable than usual.
>>68085652
Yes, it just so happens the communes were either overrun very quickly or quickly descended into authoritarianism.
>>68087178
> Tolstoy
> a duke with a big estate
> being famous writer and shit
> his wife records his words, because he cant write and his excuse is some nonsensical sort of wrist disease
> spend money on retarded socialism-related politics and spend his estate to socialism-related projects
> left his wife and children penniless
>>68083036
>>68083036
It has. Early United States before the revolution, many groups operated in communes. They failed.
>My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) – or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate! If we could get back to personal names, it would do a lot of good. Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people. If people were in the habit of referring to ‘King George’s council, Winston and his gang’, it would go a long way to clearing thought, and reducing the frightful landslide into Theyocracy. Anyway the proper study of Man is anything but Man; and the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity. And at least it is done only to a small group of men who know who their master is. The mediævals were only too right in taking nolo efiscopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers. And so on down the line.
>>68087673
> That's capitalism actually.
>>68086842
>You do know that Marx never worked a day in his life
Not true but really what academic/intellectual has ever actually "worked" to make ends meet? Stop and think for once in your life.
>>68083036
The 1973 Allende government in Chile was democratically-elected but was deposed by a coup. I'm not sure how long it would have lasted, though, because we are talking about communism here.
>>68085521
All those flags are wrong
>>68083036
People want 95 $500 plums rather than fewer $1 plums with a three hour wait
>>68083036
pls just go
>>68087838
Yep!
That about sums up OP alright.
>Well, anarchism is, in my view, basically a kind of tendency in human thought which shows up in different forms in different circumstances, and has some leading characteristics. Primarily it is a tendency that is suspicious and skeptical of domination, authority, and hierarchy. It seeks structures of hierarchy and domination in human life over the whole range, extending from, say, patriarchal families to, say, imperial systems, and it asks whether those systems are justified. It assumes that the burden of proof for anyone in a position of power and authority lies on them. Their authority is not self-justifying. They have to give a reason for it, a justification. And if they can’t justify that authority and power and control, which is the usual case, then the authority ought to be dismantled and replaced by something more free and just.
>>68083036
Communism is by definition authoritarian socialism you mong twat
>>68087673
>literally believes that he wouldn't be executed by a communist government if they ascended to power
You're a true useful idiot.
>It furthermore occurred to me that, basically, anarchy is in fact the only political position that is actually possible. I believe that all other political states are in fact variations or outgrowths of a basic state of anarchy; after all, when you mention the idea of anarchy to most people they will tell you what a bad idea it is because the biggest gang would just take over. Which is pretty much how I see contemporary society. We live in a badly developed anarchist situation in which the biggest gang has taken over and have declared that it is not an anarchist situation—that it is a capitalist or a communist situation. But I tend to think that anarchy is the most natural form of politics for a human being to actually practice. All it means, the word, is no leaders. An-archon. No leaders.
the kibbutzim, maybe? i don't know that much about them
>>68088283
I think you may need to do a little more reading.
>>68083036
>communism
>without authoritarian governments
hmmmmmmmm......
>comrade!
>pls forfeit private property for make good of glorious proletariat!!
>"no"
now what redshits?
>>68088283
Not really.
Communism is fairy tale utopia: everybody have everything, no money needed, woman are public property, no government exist, etc.
Pretty retarded and irrelative to modern or classical political problems.
Socialism is the way to that utopia from shitty "capitalism" trough even worse shit to communism.
The whole marxist theory is also usually called communism, but that`s a meme.
>Indeed, that was an apt and true reply which was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold pride, What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you who does it with a great fleet are styled emperor".
>>68083036
I'm fucking tired of you commie bandits trying to make some kind of sympathy post for commie banditry. Straight up, communism requires the state's monopoly on force to function.
The economic facts don't back up communism. It has failed in every single instance from the Bolsheviks to Allende.
So, what do we do instead? The obvious conclusion is that capitalism is the better fucking system but you aspies have to take it to the next level and just attack the state along with the rich. Anarcho-autism or "libertarian" socialism don't work. They're fairy tales.
Rev up the fucking helicopters.
>Capital and the Debt Trap reports that "cooperatives tend to have a longer life than other types of enterprise, and thus a higher level of entrepreneurial sustainability". A 2013 report published by the UK Office for National Statistics showed that in the UK the rate of survival of cooperatives after five years was 80 percent compared with only 41 percent for all other enterprises.[32] A further study found that after ten years 44 percent of cooperatives were still in operation, compared with only 20 percent for all enterprises" (p. 109). This resilience has been attributed to how cooperatives share risks and rewards between members, how they harness the ideas of many and how members have a tangible ownership stake in the business. Additionally, "cooperative banks build up counter-cyclical buffers that function well in case of a crisis," and are less likely to lead members and clients towards a debt trap (p. 216). This is explained by their more democratic governance that reduces perverse incentives and subsequent contributions to economic bubbles.
>>68089451
> anecdote about how robbing people is good, because government does taxes
Fine specimen of socialist dialectics.
>The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. It was founded in the town of Mondragón in 1956 by graduates of a local technical college. Its first product was paraffin heaters. It is the tenth-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge.[2]
>Blue Diamond Growers is a California agricultural cooperative and marketing organization that specializes in almonds. Founded in 1910 as the California Almond Grower's Exchange, the organization claims to be the world's largest tree nut processing and marketing company. It serves 3,500 almond growers, and helps make the almond crop (valued at over $1 billion) California's largest food export.
>The company produces almonds in various forms, including roasted almonds (under the "Blue Diamond" brand) and almond milk (under the "Almond Breeze" brand).
>The cooperative is privately held and does not disclose sales figures, although the Sacramento Bee has estimated it to have annual sales of about $709 million in 2009.[1]
