Communism
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Please explain to me what is wrong with Communism.
>>68069627
Everything
>>68069627
It doesn't work.
>>68069627
If its so great why dont you go start a commune on your own
Did you fall asleep during History class you dumb faggot?
>>68069681
>>68069770
>>68069802
>>68069815
Not an argument
>>68069873
>Mexico
Not a human.
>>68069873
>Mexico
>>68069627
abolishing class antagonism by abolishing personal property is a fucking stupid idea
>>68070093
How else are you going to abolish classes?
>>68070147
Why would you want to abolish classes?
>>68069627
Math
>>68069627
No true communist has ever been in-charge of a communist state
>>68069627
Millions upon millions of dead in the street every single time it has ever been tried.
>>68070198
A better question is: Why wouldn't you want to abolish classes?
>>68070198
because theyre unequal
Nothing is wrong with communism. The problem is human nature.
>>68070377
Because classes serve an economic and political purpose and have existed ever since humans settled down into agricultural societies and had a division of labour.
>>68070407
Why is that bad?
>>68070407
neither are people
>>68070198
If only they worked hard and used their hard earned money to establish a business, not buying iphone and shiet.
Nothinggg
economic calculation problem
>The economic calculation problem is a criticism of using economic planning as a substitute for market-based allocation of the factors of production. It was first proposed by Ludwig von Mises in his 1920 article "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth" and later expanded upon by Friedrich Hayek.[1][2] In his first article, Mises describes the nature of the price system under capitalism and describes how individual subjective values are translated into the objective information necessary for rational allocation of resources in society
Communism is great if you don't want any personal freedom or individuality. Communist governments (not elected by the people) control what you learn, where you work, what you can believe, where you live, and pretty much every aspect of your life. You must be totally submissive to the government. The government can kill you if they wanted (look at North Korea).
Plus they have a socialistic economy which is terrible.
Nothings wrong with it. It describes like in a paradise, a eutopian vision of society. However we dont live in paradise and communism doesnt tend to work irl.
>>68070593
keked by a RARE
>>68070700
Nice, did you get that from wikipedia?
>>68070504
What kind of economic/political purpose, exploitation? Class division is simply the result of unbalanced resources.
>>68070593
You're a socialist
Human nature.
Marxism is an antiquated viewpoint on the future. In essence, it conceptualizes an ideal for very small groups as a possibility for large-scale replication, but is intrinsically flawed based on human nature in it's current state.
But because of it's limited perspective, it cannot address the issues that would arise in the actual future; including continuation of human greed, as well as overpopulation.
>>68070925
>What kind of economic/political purpose
You need certain people to do different things within a society.
>Class division is simply the result of unbalanced resources.
Class division is simply the result of those different types of work and their requirement for a society to function. Resources flow towards certain classes because of the jobs which that class tends to do. Classes exist because we have an economy, the only way to abolish class is to destroy the economy so completely that there can be no divisions of an economic nature.
>>68070925
Yes I did! Go read it at your leisure!
>>68069627
Communism requires a government. Government requires a tax. A tax requires coercion to collect. Coercion is violence, and therefore a violation of natural law. Communism is immoral.
>>68069627
Its build on a morally untenable framework.
>>68070460
Everything is wrong with communism. It would literally hold people with higher aptitudes back from excelling. It is a form of enslavement.
Cuz not everyone can be awesome so we all have to come down to the same shitty level.
It also disincentives. Slows productivity and innovation.
It is immoral. It is disgusting. It is weak.
>>68069627
The idea that people who do significantly harder jobs get paid the same as easy jobs is terrible.
>>68070540
Note: the kind of people that honestly think these sort of responses are clever and profound are the exact same type of people that cry crocodile tears at the idea of Kim Jong-un or Il-sung being fat and living in a palaces while their people starve
"That's evil! It obviously shows a corrupt system." they say.
I rather like the "lets just throw the communists out of helicopters" approach.
Democracy has been around for a few THOUSAND years, it has been tried and tested in many forms. Capitalism has not been around for that long, but it is certainly nothing new and without its share of horrible failures.
Social justice and socialism as a political system existed for a half a century, after the most tragic event the world has ever seen.
So there you have it, it is clearly a more progressive taught and it is probably inevitable
>>68071212
... and violating the natural law means violating what is in long-term self-interest anyway.
The offense and consequence are two sides of the same coin.
>>68069627
Read fucking Animal Farm
>>68069627
they still support it
>>68071353
Care to actually offer an argument?
Because
https://archive.org/stream/SocialistPhenomenon#page/n2/mode/1up
Read this book
>>68071496
Because I believe that ownership should be dictated by whether or not you EARN it, not by whether or not you NEED it
this is in essence the disagreement between capitalism and socialism
>>68070700
Notice that the "calculation problem" was floated as an idea by haters during the very start of the USSR. It then proceeded to turn into a world super power and last multiple generations. Such systemic failure.
It's like bragging at he funeral of an olympic marathon runner that you always knew he was going to choke in the end after he died of cancer at age 86.
>>68071478
>Read [insert book here]
That is a lazy way to argue.
>>68071212
So you saying that there are "universal laws?" Would you mind linking me to a pdf, I would really like to read them.
>>68071353
they say that because that's what happens under communism you dumbass. you realize NK is a perfect example of what happens with communism?
>>68069873
You've lived under communism.
Tell us how it was living under the rule of the great PRI.
Tell us about the great freedom you had.
>>68069627
They didn't predict the computer age.
Computers allowed labor to continually change, be replaced and be lessened. Because of it their has not yet been a plateau where production speed and quality has not advanced.
The ideas will need to be addressed in the future as robots become the dominant source of labor however.
>>68070317
>No true scotsman
>>68072136
this. communism will degenerate no matter who the leaders are. even if it isn't an absolutely brutal regime it is guaranteed to go bankrupt when people stop innovating, which they will, because communism offers no incentive to do anything. the "greater good" is not a fucking reason to innovate, no one thinks this way.
communism is an anti-human, deeply depraved ideology.
>>68071496
That was an arguement.
Do you think a north korean dictator living a palatial lifestyle and being fat and happy while the country around him is in ruins suffering from starvation is a bad thing? Is it a sign of incompetence or wicked selfishness that should be rectified? If you do then you understand naturally why inequality is bad. The problem is you've been socially programmed to think it's good when your masters do it. Much like a North Korean would probably defend the Kim dynasty as necessary and ultimately good.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't force him to drink. The problem with this kind of debate is it's really about what you WANT to believe. It's easier to think logically if you consider a country you don't have an emotional attachment to and a deep need to defend. If you actually do think the inequality of North Korea or the class of the nomenklatura of the USSR are awesome things that should have been preserved if not furthered then give a brief explanation why. I think it's pretty innately obvious why such class and inequality is shit once you remove the emotion from the equation.
>>68071605
Nice post
>>68072319
north korea is a communist country idiot, everyone is equal, just some people are more equal than others.
>>68072291
so your only argument is that humans are selfish, and will stay selfish forever?
>>68070593
NUKE THE GOOK
>>68072475
that is the way they are now. so if you intend to make communism work, you must either condition the public (it doesn't work on everyone that's why we're on /pol/), kill those who disagree (gulags), or genetically modify people to not be selfish (this hasn't been tried yet).
it's not my "only argument." it's actually a very fundamental thing to understand about animals, and we *are* animals
>>68069627
You are asking for input from retards who unironically think communism involves a state and that social democracy is socialism. If you want good dissenting views talk to people who have actually studied the theory
>>68069627
The God Emperor disapproves.
>>68071632
The USSR was consistently overestimated as an economic power.
http://econ.sciences-po.fr/sites/default/files/file/myth_of_asias-miracle.pdf
Never go full collectivism.
>>68072692
>communism not involving a state
i think you fail to understand the difference between theory and implementation. without a state no one can defend the land so someone will come in and force a state on you. not very difficult to understand.
>>68072692
Communism is the fullest manifestation of state power you absolute degenerate.
>>68069627
It doesn't even work in Asia. An area who's culture focus' on the collective.
In the west, our individuality eventually rejects it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZatGAkBZcW4
>>68072475
Is that not true? Most humans are intrinsically selfish by nature. The only reason we have become altruistic and empathetic at all is because of society. But deep down, most of us only care for ourselves and what's in it for us.
This is why communism will never work. In a perfect world with perfect people Communism would be grade A. But since we humans are flawed, like to take the easier road possible, and will do anything to make the most money with the least amount of effort, Communism is a plan for failure. It ignores how selfish most humans are by way of nature and unfortunately yes, we will always be this way.
>>68069627
FUCKING MASONS!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>68069627
nothing wrong, but it was proposed 600 years too early
goddamn was the man a visionary
>>68072644
well thats why you have socialism, to transition to communism.
it may not happen tommorow, or even not in this century, but is clearly the next step in our evolution as humans and how perceive social issues, that is to let go of the selfishness and the need of possession, and to make humanity better for everybody together
>>68069627
Humans aren't ants.
It goes against human nature. Humans are hard-wired to expect rewards for their hard work, there'd be questions being asked if brain surgeons were going home with the same pay as.. let's say.. a bus driver.
>>68073183
this sounds nice and i wish it could happen.
but i know too much about the realities of nature and biology to fall into this trap. socialism breeds decay for the same reason as communism: people work less when you give them shit for free.
>>68073032
>>68072815
>only works in theory
China is a communist country. Communism seems to be working well for them.
>>68073412
you realize they only started progressing economically after laxing on a substantial number of communist policies? they made sure to let millions die of famine before doing this, though.
>>68073362
don't worry
communism will only come with post-scarcity
in a post-scarcity society, selfishness simply doesn't make sense
we're still centuries away from that though
>>68073362
This.
Let's just take a moment to remember what happened to Greece
>>68073412
>Communism seems to be working well for them.
The only reason they haven't gone belly up is SEZs
>>68073412
>stock market
>privately owned companies
>(you) retard
>>68073412
>implying China is the kind of country anyone would want to live in
China's fundamentally fucked up and corrupt to the core. Why not just move there?
it could work for a small community.
just like any other meme system (like anarcho-capitalism).
but for something as big as USA? or any country that has more than 1 million people? doubt it senpai.
do I have any arguments to back this up? fuck no. but what I said kinda makes sense. that's my argument, can't refute it.
It's extremely flawed in theory.
Marxism denies evolution and denies human instincts.
It's that retarded.
>>68069627
pic related
>>68069627
It is impossible to implement the practices of communism without the government becoming totalitarian. To date, we have not had a single government become totalitarian and remain benevolent. In prior instances of communism, you see the main issue being the division of goods. For instance, bacon, wine, and caviar were all accessible to the upper echelon of the soviet party but not to the common man. In theory, every citizen should be able to enjoy those delicious fish eggs.
>>68073412
It failed in Vietnam and they opened up the market.
It clearly failed in Russia. A country that probably put the most into it.
> implying China just went commie without any issue
It barely works in China and the main reason is because it opened up the market some.
>>68073183
Explain Venezuela then anon. That country is on the cusp of complete and utter collapse.
>>68073896
>>68073658
>>68073582
https://youtu.be/uPSxt5A23MI
Who else compares?
>>68073183
>we can magically get rid of selfishness
Kek
>>68073362
I agree, it is purely an idealistic term. Marx was a philosopher and he only dealt in theory and ideas.
But as something that is good, and that has the plausibility to work (on smaller scales it does work), is it not right to follow those ideals the best way we can, rather than polishing a turd that is capitalism, which breeds inequality and has done equally horrible things for a much longer period of time?
And I'm not talking about revolutions, but rather an evolution util it comes natural to us.
>>68074317
That's money at work, not communism
>>68074439
polishing 'the turd' that is capitalism is exactly what scandinavian countries did
there was no proletariat/populist revolution which is the regular way of doing socialism
>>68074224
What do you mean it failed in Vietnam? Vietnam is still socialist.
Millions upon millions dead, every single regime that has implemented it quickly became an authoritarian, oppressive nightmare with no regard for human life. Karl Marx surely had no idea the devastation his work would unleash in the 20th century.
But I'm sure it's because we just haven't implemented communism correctly yet!
>>68072815
>i think you fail to understand the difference between theory and implementation.
I think you fail to understand the value of objective coherent definition of terms and understanding the subject matter you have an opinion about. Anything is true if you just redefine things. Communism means a stateless, classless society. This isn't opinion, it's fact. It's the way it is. Unless you can think of some way to reconcile stateless with a state then "communist state" is a contradiction in terms uttered by people who don't really understand the subject they're talking about and are too lazy to learn.
>>68069627
Putting all of a country's wealth and resources in the hands of the government puts the people at the mercy of the government. Governments can start out with pure intentions, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. Always.
>>68074801
Their market is free
The Vietnamese just love it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AiMGTRV2LY
>>68074801
They claimed to be "skipping" capitalism, "jumping" from socialism to communism a dozen years back and failed. So it's not that communism fail in Vietnam but we fail to become actual commie.
>>68071945
Morality, like truth, exists independently of your perception. Denying the existence of natural law is accepting relativism, which in short is Satanism. The four main tenets of modern Satanism are:
1st Tenant = Self-Preservation - an extreme form of selfishness to advance ones personal gains at any cost, and if you harm others don’t get caught.
2cd Tenant = Moral Relativism - no right and wrong exist in nature.
3rd Tenant = Social Darwinism - man is an animal, therefore he can act like one.
4th Tenant = Eugenics - elite decides who lives and dies.
Denying a creator exists is the same as declaring yourself God. You are now an animal, without design and purpose, therefore you may act as an animal.
That being said society are uneducated animals and do not know the study of God's law, most people today haven't even figured out religion is an astrotheological allegory for the constellations, some parables, and the rest poison to force divisions among followers.
On how to deal with the Walking Dead (public) is a mystery to me. When you kill you kill yourself, when you steal you steal from yourself. However there if there is no action to stand alongside faith, there is no progress. The closest thing I think you can ever get to a moral society is personal internal monarchy and external anarchy. The transition of an enlightened populace though will be very, very, very, long time though. The animalistic masses obviously reflect their need for governance by their immoral action, created by human programming, not nature may I remind you.
Human genome editing and neural augmentation (if accepted) will dehumanize most of the public even more. I'd be surprised if most of the millennials don't make it to the grave with physical modifications or enhancements. The study of internal peace and syncretism is long dead.
The easiest answer to solve the current issues our race is experiencing (including if the Flat Earth Model of Abizaid is correct) is to study God.
>>68077550
Wow it totally makes sense when you put it that way.
>>68069815
What about the non-Soviet and non-Maoist communists?
>>68069627
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VggFao85vTs
Also, these vids in order lay things out pretty well.
MAGA
The truth about immigration, by the numbers:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE
Cultural Marxist Jews Admit Organizing White Genocide
The plan to eliminate the white race:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOgkGzMdieI
also see
The facts about slavery in North America:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5tci36bNjg
Cultural Marxist Jews fund media propaganda against whites on an enormous scale:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gOn9MuFimo
Cultural Marxism in action, polictical correctness. The tip of the blade:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6c_dinY3fM
Does this sound familar at all?
>https://youtu.be/kPdxhLUKZYM?list=PLo0ThsDnveH5nv5TNviBrGTX9P6IrYfIe&t=412
The Holocaust
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFkzTCyG8c0
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgGP_evkvOk
>>68071993
The DPRK has abandoned all forms of Marxism or Leninism.
Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto
Abolition of Property in Land and Application of all Rents of Land to Public Purpose.
A Heavy Progressive or Graduated Income Tax.
Abolition of All Rights of Inheritance.
Confiscation of the Property of All Emigrants and Rebels.
Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State, by Means of a National Bank with State Capital and an Exclusive Monopoly.
Centralization of the Means of Communication and Transport in the Hands of the State.
Extension of Factories and Instruments of Production Owned by the State, the Bringing Into Cultivation of Waste Lands, and the Improvement of the Soil Generally in Accordance with a Common Plan.
Equal Liability of All to Labor. Establishment of Industrial Armies, Especially for Agriculture.
Combination of Agriculture with Manufacturing Industries; Gradual Abolition of the Distinction Between Town and Country by a More Equable Distribution of the Population over the Country.
Free Education for All Children in Public Schools. Abolition of Children's Factory Labor in it's Present Form. Combination of Education with Industrial Production.
>>68072136
Lenin had different definitions of socialism and communism when he said that. Fuck off with your slippery slope and read a book.
Also, NTS is completely irrelevant in cases where the definition of communism as said by Marx applies. Originally communism referred to a stateless, classless, moneyless society based on collective operation of the economy. Until the Soviet propagandists used the term to describe themselves and American propagandists redefined it to describe totalitarianism, this was the case. You can accurately say that the Soviets and Chinese were awful. Just don't misuse rhetorical terms when someone distances them from the original definition of communism.
>>68072442
>what is Juche
>>68072644
Communism/socialism doesn't always take that route. There were several instances when communist/socialist states introduced large civil society reforms like free speech and freedom of emigration.
>>68074991
>those states became totalitarian
They were totalitarian to begin with. It didn't start like some Bernie presidency and go down a slippery slope.
>>68074991
>Karl Marx surely had no idea the devastation his work would unleash in the 20th century.
"The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope."
>>68069681
Elaborate
>>68069770
How?
>>68069802
1) Not an argument
2) It is hard to start a commune when capitalist companies have a monopoly on all resources.
>>68070093
Not personal property, private property. The definition of private property in Marxism is an office, factory, et cetera. You get to keep your car.
>>68069627
It's 2016.
>>68069627
Depends on how well the state runs the enterprises.
Most people don't seem to realize a lot of companies are state owned. For some reason many people think their country isn't to some extent communist.
>>68070803
Where do I begin?
1) Communism is a STATELESS society, no one can take away your freedom except for yourself.
>You can't be submissive to a nonexisting government.
>North Korea stopped identifying as communist a very long time ago. They are Juche, a separate ideology.
2) What is awful about the workers owning the means of production?
>>68082778
>1) Communism is a STATELESS society, no one can take away your freedom except for yourself.
And the person who initiates force on you
>2) What is awful about the workers owning the means of production?
Nothing. if you want to set up a business that way go ahead but when you want to abolish shit and take what isn't yours, that's where the problem arises
>>68079818
Damn that was a redpill. Never watched any DD, assumed he was some evil neonazi. Actually very reasonable and astute.
>>68071287
Holds them back from excelling? I would consider the accomplishments of the Soviets during the Space Race quite excellent and innovative.
>Implying that the current Wage Slavery isn't enslavement.
If it disincentives work, then why did almost GDP, GNI, etc. post-revolution?
>Implying communism is immoral when capitalism creates slavery in foreign nations.
>Implying communism is disgusting when capitalism gives workers disgusting working conditions.
>Implying communism is weak when most communist nations had immense armies.
>>68069627
Read Shakedown Socialism by Oleg Atbashian. He'll wreck any argument you have on the subject. Communism is a fairy tale created by a moron. It teaches people how to be equally miserable, equally poor, and equally stupid and ignorant in all facets of life. It's shit and it doesn't work in reality.
>>68069627
Marxism is a crazy ideology that intends to destroy Western culture and civilization.
Communism is just an economic policy.
Distinguish.
>>68071478
Read the Communist Manifesto
>>68069627
Just try. Feel the Gommunism.
>>68072442
That is not communism.
>>68075878
Vietnam isn't communist, it has a stock market and privately owned companies.
Its a shit tier ideology same as capitalism
>>68082902
In communism, you have the right to bear arms. You should defend yourself. If you can't defend yourself, then the commune's militia should take care of it, similar to the police.
>>68069627
People are selfish, and lazy. "giving" them everything they need to survive destroys incentives to be productive and work.
>>68069627
works in direct contrast with the competitive spirit of humanity
fascism and capitalism work in tandem with the competitive spirit of humanity
not to mention that communism has been directly responsible for more deaths than any other political ideology
>>68071478
The book written by a Trotskyist as a critique of Stalinism?
Communism is inevitable. Capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions. A better question is why so many class-cucks are on here.
>>68082778
Your argument is entirely wrong. You've described anarchy. In Communism, the State rules everything and everyone; hence the reason why Communism and dictators are always seen together. The Communist Manifesto explicitly states that the means of production are owned by the state, and not by the people.
>>68084001
"He who does not work, neither shall he eat"
-Lenin
Of course, the above quote excludes those who can not work (elderly, pregnant, disables, the youth, etc.)
This can be solved by labor vouchers, which could be found in the CNT. If you sell a chair for $100, you get a voucher worth $100 to use at your commune's market.
>>68084416
Communism: A term describing a stateless, classless, moneyless society with common ownership of the means of production. "Communism" can also describe the revolutionary movement to create such a society.
>>68083232
The Communist Manifesto literally prohibits religion, family, and morality. Communism is essentially Brave New World.
>>68079859
how come mods have completely stopped deleting this stuff?
>>68069627
>Please explain to me what is wrong with Communism.
see for yourself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaCHBmGWcBc
>>68084501
That's state capitalism
>>68069627
People
>>68083163
Current wages literally aren't slavery. It is 100% consensual.
Also the Soviets made those accomplishments of the back of Nazi scientists for a large part, who were forced at gunpoint, along with the Russia born scientists. I see no evidence that the soviets were producing an intellectual class of scientists from the new generations.
>>68084575
Why do people still post this shit pic? It's a ridiculous fallacy that's been hurled at communists since the 19th century. I'm solidly working class, as it every communist I know.
It's also hilariously wrong in its understanding of Marxism and communism. "Rednecks and hood trash" are part of the lumpenproletariat. Disengaged from the mass ranks of the working class. Hipsters/middle class people (while admittedly cunts) are still part of the proletariat since they rely on working for a living.
>>68083163
Also getting a large army doesn't make you economic system or your social system strong you fucking muppet. Get the fuck out of here, your arguments are only acceptable on leftypol and reddit.
>>68069627
Depends on your definition of Communism.
>>68069627
Communism currently requires some people to do hard labor and receive the same pay as someone who does easy or cerebral labor. Because the reward is the same for unequal effort, people are incentivized to do as little work as possible in order to maximize their effort:reward ratio. Without some other person acting as government to prevent this a communist society will eventually stagnate. However, a truly communist society has no government thus all communist societies will stagnate. Incidentally, small communes can be successful because peer expectations/shame and kin selection can act as the necessary coercive factor without actually being government. However these societies are also stagnant because they can never reach population critical mass for specialization without becoming too large for the coercive factors becoming impotent.
>>68084379
If capitalism collapsed we will have a mass collapse of society that has never been seen in the history of humanity. And there is no reason to think that communism would be what emerges from the ashes.
Also I am a class cuck because I worked hard and am now in a comfortable position that is befitting of my achievement. I don't want to be equal with plebs, I want what I have earn't, and the anons here respect that, and recognize that I and other people in that position shouldn't have their property stolen.
It all goes back to the standard liberal concept of "how would you like it?". You people are delusioned and think that people with more money are exempt from empathy, but let me tell you that a rich guy suffering is just as bad as a poor guy suffering, perhaps worse considering that the rich guy might have people earning a living wage under him.
Your ideology is immoral, plain and simple.
>>68084933
It says that religion and morality are flawed in a capitalist system.
>Religion
Worshiping a deity that allows Wage Slavery to happen under their watch should not be considered a deity at all.
>Morality
Wage Slavery is considered moral under capitalism, therefore the current morality needs to be changed.
>Family
I don't recall it saying that family should be *abolished.*
>>68084933
>morality
Where is that forbidden?
Also, in Marx's day, marriage and religion were much more matters of class. He didn't want families to be destroyed; he just wanted them to be based on mutual affection and choice rather than social class and wealth.
>>68069627
KARL MARX DIED DISEASE INFECTED WITH BOILS UPON HIS ASS
>>68084001
>giving" them everything they need to survive destroys incentives
There are other "incentives" that really can't be given to a person, namely society approval, recognition, status, fame,power, and some luxuries, that are used to get attention to the opposite sex (females) on a primitive level.
Not working in a worker class society would be close to social suicide, just like being poor in capitalism only you don't get to starve for food only affection.
>>68085873
You act as if wage slavery is not only real slavery, but also that it is morally reprehensible in a system in which you can work from your bonds. I would much rather receive an American minimum wage than have the "communes" in control of everything. Like most westerners, I value my freedom. In fact, I would much rather work for lodging and no pay.
As for religion, it serves as a moral basis for the greatness and compassion of many countries, that without it, would have historically had no trouble in oppressing commoners to a greater extent.
As for morality, there is no "wage slavery" that you can prove exists, and even if you could, being payed a fixed rate for doing a shitty job isn't immoral. Just because someone is suffering does not mean an act of immorality has been acted out.
Just seriously fuck off. Why are you even on this site?
>>68086064
Fellow commie here!
>Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists
"...it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis..."
You can refer to my above post >>68085873
as to why Marx would see to wanting current religion and current morality abolished.
Cheers!
>>68086132
This. This apparently happens in kibbutzim when someone is lazy. They're not taken seriously.
>>68069627
It was invented and rabidly pushed by kikes. It could never be anything but pure evil.
>>68086132
In capitalist societies in the west you can literally refuse to work and you will still be fed. Don't be retarded. The problem is people having kids and being niggers in this situation. If someone deserving of success and comfort were in that position I am confident they could survive, as I have. Stupid degenerates having fifty kids on welfare so they can grow up to be stupid degenerates on welfare, and/or niggers that by good food and luxuries in that situation are the real problem.
I know this because I was in the same situation, so unlike the average retard on welfare, I ate nothing but eggs, vegetables, and cheap meat while I looked for work and saved.
>>68086393
>Current morality
This is cringy. There are morals that are held self evident in western society, such as individual liberty. Marxism is not compatible. And faggot that wants to take that away deserves a bullet in the fucking brain, because all that is in said brain is morally relativistic retardation.
>>68086393
>>68086751
Forgot pic
>>68069627
In order for a communist system to work, each individual actor must act with perfect knowledge and without self-interest.
Communism requires everyone to be jesus and discounts the idea of human error and selfishness.
It is idealistic in that it believes that everyone has an inherent virtue and will always live in accordance with its standards.
That is why communist states are by necessity totalitarian. Any degree of autonomy can lead to selfishness which can threaten the whole.
>>68083163
A friend of the family returned to his commie nation for a family birth, and when returned he told me directly:
1. he definitely made the right choice to come to USA
2. a damn cup of coffee was $25 there - one fucking 6oz cup, no refills, in the cafe
Communism creates severe supply shortages, and then only those "controlling the ownerships of the proletariat" have jack shit.
>>68069770
>It doesn't work.
The only period of time that anywhere on earth was NOT communist was within the past 10,000 years.
Actually, if you go back 2000 years and 200 km north of Helsinki you would have found a communist society - stretching all the way east to Kamchatka.
Communism existed for much, much, much longer than capitalism.
In practice it ignores individual rights.
>>68086315
furthermore the analogy is people saying we are energy slaves because we need to spend time and energy gathering berries and going hunting.
THE CAVEMEN WERE OPPRESSED AND SHIT MAN
>>68086820
Oh shit nigga! You mentioned the word state in front of the word communism! Marx's perfect idealist world didn't have states! Fuck you and reality, nuance is capitalist filth!
>>68069627
>Please explain to me what is wrong with Communism.
>Please explain to me what is wrong with (Everyone being equal).
People are not equal.
They just aren't.
>>68086876
Which nation?
Most of them have had embargoes, which destroyed its economy and made the price of everything skyrocket.
>>68069627
Because it holds the very best, brightest and most ambitious back to the same level as everybody else. You get enough people like that, communicating, pissed off at the way their lives are being run and they will pull it down. Why do you think communist regimes of the past and present are so damn authoritarian? They have to be in order to survive.
>>68086960
Nice, well posted sir!
>>68084501
>This can be solved by labor vouchers
commie fuckin idiot calls guv money "labor vouchers" and notes the only store to spend them at is "the guvs" that of course in commie stupid lingo "community owned market"
>>68069627
show me one country in which it has been successful
The very ideals of marx are anti-human.
The ideology is about chaining people together in mutual slavery.
>>68087166
I don't see what the argument is here.
In communism, if you can hunt, fish, farm, supply your own water, without exploiting others, then you can live out by yourself if you want. It is pretty voluntaryist.
>>68086876
>Communism creates severe supply shortages
This is statement is retarded, if you distribute 50 tons of coffe in either economic system but the market required 70; you will still be short of supply by 20 tons.
>>68086603
> Stupid degenerates having fifty kids on welfare so they can grow up to be stupid degenerates on welfare, and/or niggers that by good food and luxuries in that situation are the real problem.
We really need to understand why it happens and quantify the amount of "pariahs" that there could been independently of the economic system, happens in capitalism too after all
It's anti-proprietarian, even to the middle class
>>68086925
Yeah I'm sure I would share my rocks and pointy sticks equally with my friends as well.
>>68087375
What?
How is it anti-human when it is based on the society we lived in as we evolved?
>>68069627
>inb4 theory and practice
>inb4 perfect theory imperfect world
communism is a collection of a number of concepts, and there are a number of ways of implementing communism, so it depends on if you are after a pure theory of communism, Leninism, Stalinist, etc
so I'l only go into common fixtures of a communist state
> single party rule
denies that sub power-blocs are always going to form, and provides no procedural or cultural safeguards to ensure a minority interest in the party doesn't become dominant
>no democracy
had many upsides, downside is mainly that it entrenches the powerful party figures, and makes the benefit of the people (though the stated aim) entirely optional
>non-private governance of industry
direct worker decisions are time consuming, and the workers may not have the skills or education to make good decisions, worker-elected managers are a good option but it makes it hard to manage unpopular decisions and to balance the greater good with the good of the specific workers involved
centralized government control is a massive massive burden on the administration, they are forced to micro-mange the economy, the around of administrators required is going to be 1:1 with a capitalist system, and it allows for decisions both good and bad to be made on a massive scale
>state allocation of resources
presents great risk of mis-management, but has many upsides
>no classes
hard to get someone to manage something for no extra pay/gain
impossible for workers and managers to have the same interest, or to get either to look out for the other; great to aim for, foolish to rely apon
Communism only works in extremely small extremely homogenous societies. EX Paris Commune/Anarchist Catalonia
Mass scale authoritarian communism is the biggest killer of all time.
>>68085133
>It is 100% consensual.
Bullshit. It would be consensual if workers and firms had the same amount of bargaining power, but they don't, which leads to people taking jobs that they don't want out of economic desperation.
>>68083887
>Not disproving the point about Marx
>>68087609
....Did you even read the communist manifesto?
The entire thing is a horror story of one mans hated for idea of self sufficiency.
The book essentially demonizes the very core of the human drive for success. It takes away the uncertainty of failure, and replaces it with achievable mediocrity.
It is an ideology of stagnation and ideological death for the human race.
>>68087744
>Mass scale authoritarian communism is the biggest killer of all time.
The problem is that <Insert Authoritarian Here> who try to implement it don't understand that it's a long ass process that requires an variable amount of work given on several several factors.
It's a complete social reform in which some principles and values need to be "discarded" or improved upon in a highly HIGHLY industrialized society, so it would take at least 5 decades or so.
it fails to describe and predict reality. that is all, that is all that is wrong with it and that is all that needs to be wrong with it. and that is why it merits obliteration.
>gulag for context
Adam Smith and David Ricardo > Marx the so called Political Economist
>>68085819
No it wouldn't. Society transitioned from primitive communism to feudalism to capitalism without a collapse, each mode improving on the last. The very nature of capitalism means it can only end when the workers seize the means of production.
Just because you're comfortable doesn't mean you're still not part of the proletariat. Private property is theft and the source of most of the world's problems so it absolutely should be collectivised.
I really don't care about the suffering of the bourgeoisie either. They certainly don't care about the workers and they've held down the masses for centuries. They aren't innocent and deserve to suffer for the misery they've inflicted on the world over the last 500 years.
>>68086603
>In capitalist societies in the west you can literally refuse to work and you will still be fed
Yes, to stop people revolting. Revolutions are started by the desperate.
>>68088215
>it fails to describe and predict reality
seems to me that is another way of saying "it didn't work before"
failed communist stated have a number of things in common
1. isolated by all other countries
2. single party totalitarian rule
3. revolutionary government didn't transition
also china didn't do too badly in the scheme of things
>>68069627
pls go away
>>68087403
so now robinson crusoe and grizzly adams are communists...
HOLY FUCKING KEK !!!
If you're not a troll, condolences on the cranial caboose
>>68087444
You got trips so the argument is yours senpai, I ain't stepping in the way of kek.
>>68088167
None of this apologetic nonsense stands up to one history course. Authoritarianism was always the goal.
But Lenin didn't know what he was doing because he hadn't read enough books.
>>68088542
The point was, if you can be self-sufficient, the commune doesn't need to supply anything for you. The commune collectively supplies for those who can not COMPLETELY supply for themselves (i.e. pregnant, youth, elderly, disabled, those who do not have the skills to be COMPLETELY self-sufficient <-----The majority of the population.)
>>68088456
Society transitioned from feudalism to capitalism without a collapse? There were all kinds of collapses.
>>68088487
you think the success of random states have anything to do with whether or not a sociological idea works?
you're from reddit aren't you
>>68087444
No one is going to distribute jack shit, because they get jack shit for doing it as a commie
SHORTAGE
IN CAP PIG SUDDENLY 20 EXTRA COFFEE DELIVERED QUICKLY IS WORTH A LOT NOW AND THEN, INCLUDING FUTURE MARKETSHARE
Wake up you fucking meager moron MENTAL MIDGET
>wants to destroy class
>hiearchy is a natural process of humans
>in "destroying class", an enforcer class is created to enforce "equality"
>turns into peasants and rulers, no middle ground
The economic part is the lack of competition and the idea of mutual ownership which is absurd. There are smart people and there are dumb people.
>>68086925
>Actually, if you go back 2000 years and 200 km north of Helsinki you would have found a communist society - stretching all the way east to Kamchatka.
HOLY SHIT, and we heard the conservos want to take us back to jim crow, but the lefties, the commies, they want us back to the stone age....
ROFLMAO
>>68088456
>Yes, to stop people revolting. Revolutions are started by the desperate.
The fact is that it happens, you dip. Why it happens is irrelevant in this case as it has no potential to cause harm.
?Just because you're comfortable doesn't mean you're still not part of the proletariat. Private property is theft and the source of most of the world's problems so it absolutely should be collectivised.
How the fuck is private property theft? I bought this land with current that represents units of labor that I have worked for. I have by all rights earned the land I now sit upon as well as all of it's amenities. This is mine, and yours is yours. This is liberty. You leave me alone, and I don't fucking shoot you for taking my shit.
Collectivizing it would involve a state power forcefully taking it away from me, because nothing short of force will remove me from it, and the same can be said for hundreds of millions of individuals. Property ownership is in fact the ONLY moral way to provide living space and livelihood. Not only that but if people cannot own things, they have nothing to work for.
I am a part of the middle class. I have worked here from the shit. Fuck you, and fuck your revolution. If people are not under enough duress to cause a revolution, then there will not be, nor will there need to be, a reactionary revolution.
Your ideology will survive only of taking away from me the things I have toiled over, and giving them to a group full of lazy niggers that don't deserve it. Don't step on me cunt, I'll fucking nip you.
>>68088669
Maybe I didn't myself clear, I'm not justifying nor proposing authoritarianism/communism but rather ONE of the reasons about why they fail, namely extreme changes in short order without a completely detailed plan for it.
>>68069627
It's unnatural, it's a denial of Human nature and the nature of the hierarchy. Instead of rewarding and promoting merit and individual self improvement, it wants to bring everyone down to the same level and keep them there.
Plus, I doubt a bureaucracy is able to evenly distribute goods to the same efficiency Capitalism can.
Also, Communism actually can work, but only in very, VERY small contexts, like a tribe. At a national level, it falls apart.
>>68089064
Instead of that question mark next in front of the third paragraph, (or the second quote/paragraph, which ever you prefer) imagine a cool meme arrow and a line of green text.
>>68088953
We are not saying to go back to that age, at all.
Primitive Communism -> Feudalism -> Capitalism -> Communism
Each step is important and it is important not to repeat the mistakes of the previous steps.
>>68088785
you're not actually making a point here
if you arn't going on past example, on what basis do you come to your conclusion?
and f you ARE going on past example, my points are entirely relevant
>>68089161
If someone wanted to run their own independent commune, that was free to come and leave, I wonder how it would do.
Communist societies only worked (for a short time) if people were forced to stay.
>>68069627
its for niggers and cuck benefits only
>>68074801
Their market is more free than fucking US markets and wealth isnt distributed among people. They earn it themselves.
>>68089161
that seems a fair assessment
that on a large scale it becomes impossible to administer in a sensible kind of way
but do you think human nature is in human interest?
that's the big question.
are heirarchies and the inclination of one man to dominate another in the interest of the group?
>>68086925
Yes, and there's a term for that: SAVAGERY.
Communists are just modern day cave-men. No wonder they go around clubbing people at rallies.
>>68089226
It's funny that you would think Communism is a natural step after Capitalism.
Not going to work until we have post-scarcity, which we don't have since replicators do not fucking exist, and resources are finite.
We all know Capitalism is not perfect, and there has to be another system after this. But the answer has already proven to NOT be communism. See: History.
>>68089340
benefits of an American education
>>68089226
And then after communism to Super Capitalism, right?
>>68072442
>>68072842
>>68072815
>>68073032
>>68073412
>>68073362
>>68073244
>>68073658
>>68074224
>>68074991
>>68075025
>>68075349
>>68079818
>>68084575
>>68084933
>>68085133
>>68085454
>>68085819
>>68086315
>>68086603
>>68086820
Oh look, another thread where nobody has any idea what the fuck they're talking about.
>>68089482
>Implying the failure of a few states proves the whole theory wrong.
>>68089482
> there has to be another system after this
We already had one until Shlomo was receiving a few less shekels from his tariffs on German Goyim.
>>68089480
very funny anon
you made a joke by saying that early forms of collective governance made the people savage
everyone knows it was man's ability to seek collective welfare that made society possible, and allowed men to progress
>>68089555
To this point, we are not sure if society is linear or cyclical.
If it is linear, communism could be the last system or it could be just one step closer to a perfect world.
If it is cyclical, something will definitely come after communism.
In both styles, it will be important to not make the mistakes that the last system made.
Only time can tell.
>>68089161
>Nature of the hierarchy
Now this I can partially agree on, that the volatility of the desires of the individual would be the most troubling factor.
>it wants to bring everyone down to the same level and keep them there.
Just like laws
>Plus, I doubt a bureaucracy is able to evenly distribute goods to the same efficiency Capitalism can.
>bureaucracy is a problem only in communist societies
>Also, Communism actually can work, but only in very, VERY small contexts, like a tribe. At a national level, it falls apart.
Of course if it's badly "implemented" it will fall apart, the system became more complex and the failure rate goes up.
>>68089571
Nice argument pal. Looks like you just whacked all of the posts that you disagree with in that one, even if they weren't making knowledge claims and were opposed to the idealist system involving wealth distribution, but sure, that's fair and not at all ad hom pal.
>>68089571
make a communism infographic to dispel commonly held beliefs about communism
or stop complaining
nothing worse than someone who tells everyone they know nothing, yet makes no effort to educate
>>68089868
You can't say that laws are all equal and are equal in the sense that they are designed to keep people down. TH e premise and the conclusion of this line of though are both wrong.
>>68089482
>and resources are finite.
Food resources can be regrown and while they aren't infinite, aren't finite in the traditional sense either.
Right now there is an incredible amount of waste in regards to finite resources (Minerals, etc.) What happens when recycling is near perfect? Even if it's only 90% of finite resources being recycled, the other 10% can be extracted and given the size of the earth, it would still take thousands of years to extract all of the minerals. By the time they run out, it is almost inconceivable to think we won't have space travel that would allow us to extract whatever minerals we want from space.
>>68069627
He tries to palm off centralization of power as empowerment of the working classes.
>>68089768
I'm not saying that's what makes cavemen savage. Communism on the other hand, definitely seems to end up in savagery.
>If it is cyclical, something will definitely come after communism.
Super-capitalism came after communism in Russia, and China is trending that way too.
>>68089605
> Communism
> A few failed states
Pick one
>>68089946
Fossil fuels will inevitably run out mind you, but I'm sure that renewable energy will do the job.
>>68069627
It's just tribalism on a large scale. Tribalism leads to nothing new, it is what we moved away from when we became civilized. There is no difference between communist collectivism and primitive tribalism, communism is the most regressive government devised in a thousand years.
>>68089881
I've tried educating the uneducated on this topic before, but it's like beating my head against the wall. Every time it ends up in meme magic with the other individual/s saying thing's ironically:
>my special brand of communism has never been tried
And other asinine things like that, because they are completely uneducated on the subject and instead choose to listen to what their parents said to them, which is for all intents and purposes rhetoric and intellectual failure.
>>68089226
what you fuckheads really want is the total fucking mega surplus all boats rising of capitalism (as you've said 50 more yearws of super industrialization - yes i've read and watched your zeitgeist bullshit) - and when CAPITALISM
CREATES
THE
SUPER
MAGA
SURPLUS
FOR
ALL
HUMANITY
you fucking worthless leeches step in, grab it all, and open your fucking charity command center, and order everyone to keep doing what they're doing as you go about stealing all the shit you want to hand to niggers so you feel good inside, raping the rich and robin hooding ALL THE SHIT CAPITALISM AND IT'S MASSIVE PERSONAL INCENTIVE STRUCTURE CREATED !!!
I'd bet a lot of commies are butt fucking ugly ... they want everyone the same - SO WHO WILL THE PUSSY WANT TO FUCK AND HANG WITH ... PERHAPS THE UGLY FUCKING STUFFED TO THE GILLS COMMISAR DURING HIS "PROLETARIAT REDISTRIBUTION RUNS "!
LITERALLY WHO CAN STAND THE IDEA OF THE TOTALLY GREY SHIT COMMIE SOCIETY... WHAT A TOTAL FUCKING BLAND NOTHING - NOTHING TO LOOK UPWARD ANF FORWARD TO BUT A SCRAP FROM THE NEW KREMLIN HANDOUT MACHINE
FFUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
COMMMMMMMMMMMMIEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
FFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRR
DDDDDDDDIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEE YOU FUCKING SCOURGES
>>68089292
>If someone wanted to run their own independent commune, that was free to come and leave, I wonder how it would do.
It's been tried, and happens a lot, like crazy villages or creepy cultist communes.But once again, it's just a very small tribe with a small population kept in the same area.
But I recall there was a town "experiment" during the 1800s in America, I can't remember the name, but it actually tried doing the whole social ownership of goods. It failed after two or three years, no one was making any profit and it was expanding.
>>68089448
I don't buy into the whole "everyone is selfish" mentality, but Communism lacks a spiritual and philosophical basis for individual self determination. People are altruistic, but they also desire to be competitive. Communism wants to get rid of Stratification, but the problem is that stratification is both natural but inevitable.
>are heirarchies and the inclination of one man to dominate another in the interest of the group?
Yeah, because people need to have an ideal to reach. It's not so much man dominating other men, but man dominating his being and achieving a sort of Nietzschan transcendence over other men. When their is an ideal to reach, men work to accomplish that ideal and at that very same time improving everyone else but rallying them to work for that ideal.
Communism tries to do this on a massive Communal level, which is practically impossible and often it just means people become workers and die workers with no kind of sense of individual greatness.
>>68089868
>are heirarchies and the inclination of one man to dominate another in the interest of the group?
True, materialistic desire is harming for both the individual and society. Which is why I'm critical of our modern form of intense secular Capitalism. Problem is that Communism is Materialistic too.
>>68090100
Indeed, by the time fossil fuels have run out, renewable's will have taken up enough of the slack for it not to be serious, and given that Nuclear Fusion is just around the corner, we will have unlimited energy.
>>68071632
>world super power
lmao
It's not hard having an influence on the world when you one central figured decided what 150 million people were going to output.
instead of achieving well being for its own people, the USSR was busy building bombers and trying to keep up with the arms race against America. This was all done at the cost of the well being of the people.
America is the only modern world power which also has a high living standard for its own people.
>>68089605
Every single state that implemented communism failed miserably
>>68090414
No, they didn't. Communism hasn't been implemented. What you think is communism (The Soviet Union) has been practically described as state capitalism for decades and yet the uneducated continue to spout your propaganda.
>>68090290
We can hope so. Corporatists with their government cohesion could quite easily put off renewables right up until we start seeing real shortages. The Liberal party shilling in our country is estimate to that. We really needed that carbon tax IMO.
Like with the cold war, I see this being another scenario in which humanity is rolling the dice to see if society collapses or not.
My humble opinion is that Communism was meant as a doctrine that only exists as a counterpart to nationalism. Marxists are obsessed with "saving the bourgeoisie " as within their world the only way to lead the proletariat to paradise is to kill writers , landowners , teachers and ,most of the military to leave an ignorant mass subordinated to the survivors of the omnipresent state.
>Communism will never work because some people are smarter than others, and some people are way smarter than others.
You can think what you want, but that's how it is. The genes to make us treacherous dogs have kept us alive thru the years and are layered in each of our DNA. Some people will ALWAYS figure out how to be the richest.
And out of that group, some will be benevolent. But not all of them. Probably not even most!
>>68090327
What about us? Haven't you received your daily reminder that Australia is one of the most powerful countries on the planet?
Also FYI it seems that what we don't have in terms of power we have in a lack of niggers and better living standards for our people (probably as a result of the lack of niggers)
>>68069627
>mass starvation
>Killing of intellectuals who disagree with you
>>68090508
>no true scotsman
textbook communist answer to any criticism
>>68090508
Even warped "not much real Capitalism" interpretations have met with measures of incredible success.
Warped "Not much Communism" fails every single time it's been tried, no matter how far or close to the mark they've gotten.
Nature is telling you that communism is bad and should go extinct as an ideology if it won't even let you succeed once, even in a warped bastardized fashion.
>>68090522
The only reason that the Liberal party exists in it's current form is because the Baby boomers are the largest demographic. As they start to die off in the next twenty years, the Liberal party will evolve. Conservatives tend to take decades to adapt to circumstances, but they get there eventually. By the time problems regarding energy shortages occur, then they'll be on board.
Hopefully anyway.
>>68090787
Sorry, I am half asleep and posted "much" instead of "muh".
My half asleep brain was trying to prune my slang terms.
>>68090171
>they are completely uneducated on the subject and instead choose to listen to what their parents said to them
You're on a board where people warship Hitler you fucking faggot. You think mommy and daddy have good things to say about him? Fuck off I like my money I like seeing people with less money then me and think people who want money need to work for it,
>>68069627
Marx was the son of bourgeois family. When he finally realized he was never going to be something of his own, he revolted against everything that founded his character. The capitalistic order and the judaic-christian nuclear family.
Then he created a whole persona around these new objectives, this persona was so elaborate that he created a whole myth, that attract problematic people just like him, until today.
His problem? Daddy issues. His whole theory revolves around his traumas and icapabilities on how to deal with them.
He is the nu-male messiah, the priest of all the problematic youth. The conceiver of the dogma of the uncapable.
>>68090781
Getting real tired of your burger shit, burgers. You can't even open up a wikipedia page to read the first paragraph as to what communism is.
>In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal")[1][2] is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.
There was still Money in the Soviet Union.
There was still social classes in the Soviet Union.
There was still a state in the Soviet Union.
The resources were not commonly owned in the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union and indeed any state that was modelled after it met 0% of the basic criteria for a communist state. Therefore they weren't communist. How hard is it to use google anyway?
>>68090788
I don't think the liberal party is even conservative. Sure it tries to pander to the conservative vote, but it is as big government as it gets despite what it tells you. How many billions can they give to dying mining companies before people realize they are shills.
You are right though, about the baby boomers, but not because their political opinions will pass, but because they are completely retarded as a generation and have no idea what is going on. Their stupidity and hopefully the entertainment fusion between news and mind numbing bullshit will die with them.
>>68091032
forgot pic, and typos
>>68090787
read:
>>68091037
It's not communism because it doesn't fit the description. Every time you burgers, every time, and Australian's get accused of being shit posters.
>>68090508
>I've tried educating the uneducated on this topic before
GOD DAMN
>I've tried educating the uneducated on this topic before
I'VE HEARD THAT 300 TIMES, APPARENTLY WHILE YOU FUCKERS THINK YOU'RE EDUCATING, EVERYONE ELSE SEES A THOUSAND BRAIN FARTS.
IF YOU'VE TRIED SO HARD COPY PASTA I CAN READ REAL FAST YOU FUCKING FOOL.
>>68090192
Ah, yes.
Your debate tactics certainly appeal to the masses. *cough* ad hominem *cough*
What have you accomplished with that nice little section of the debate? Telling us to die? Telling us that we are ugly? Good job. Bravo! You have certainly made me a "changed-man" with your anger-infused anti-communist bigotry.
It is quite amusing actually.
As much as I love to laugh, please add to the argument next post.
>>68089942
Like I said being equal for the "State" and an equal to a "social group" is a different thing measured in different ways.
>>68090230
>True, materialistic desire is harming for both the individual and society. Which is why I'm critical of our modern form of intense secular Capitalism. Problem is that Communism is Materialistic too.
True it also prices workers over non workers, which ignores a current plague in today and tomorrow society : Labor demand fall.
I'm going to sleep,cya.
Ecclesiastes 1 2-3
>“Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
>“Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.”
>What do people gain from all their labors
>at which they toil under the sun?
>>68091196
Nice memes kid, read this:
>>68091037
>>68091037
>muh communism has never been tried before
God damn are you people unintelligent. Are you high schoolers? That's an honest question im not even insulting you.
>>68090705
nice bait
but i'll bite a bit
Australia has mostly a free economy.
>>68091037
What you are failing to udnerstand, you faggot, is that any attempt to acheive communism will involve the eomplyment of force and the regulation fo a system that is assured to maintain communism. This will be done by an authoritarian government, and, oddly enough, authoritarian governments don't like giving up power. Not only that but it will never go away even if it wanted to, because setting up the system is impossible.
It is a no true scottsman in it's purest. You are calling the the cocoon fake communism because it hasn't blossomed into a butterfly. The fact of the situation , if you were wiling to apply any real world nuance to the situation, is that you are stuck with that metapod for life, because human nature pressed the B button.
>>68091275
The law doesn't force anyone to be equal by any standard.
>>68090414
That is like saying that capitalism never became prominent because of the failure of its early states.
>>68090508
>State Capitalism
You're right that idealist Communism (lacking property, money and the state) has never been achieved, rather Socialism has been placed in practice, but I don't see how the USSR was State Capitalism. Could you elaborate, do you mean that the state owned the means of production as if a giant Capitalist, and then redistributed among the soviet citizens?
I don't see how it's Capitalist, because Capitalism is defined by private ownership, not state ownership,
>>68091325
Wasn't that tasty?
>>68091317
No actually, I'm a 22 year old law student. Believe what you want though, I'm here to put down the facts.
>>68091037
>britcuck loser thinks communism just hasn't been done right yet
Of course
You people are fucking pathetic
>>68091037
Maybe this tells you what communism actually leads to, rather than what you propose that it leads to
Just because you claim that implementation of communist systems leads to certain things (even if these things were laid out by Marx himself) doesn't make it true
>>68091421
>law student
may as well be a high schooler
>>68090030
>communism ends up in savagery
>communism ends up in hyper-capitalism
???
Comunism is another ideology based on leftism. It may be the worst or least viable social-economic model, but it isn't everything the leftism has gave us.
It pretty radical. Its goals are the same as the rightist capitalism; freedom, and human evolution. Is a waste of time trying to change the world with a stuff that provides the same fucking things as the capitalist and liberalism rightism does.
>>68069627
Why should a medical doctor and Jamarcus Tyrese Brown at the local McDonald's have the same standard of living?
What motivation is there to excel in your life if you can never get ahead?
>>68091421
You can study law like the fucking vegetables I used to go to high school with. Great. This makes you intelligent how?
I'll bet you are going to be a lawyer to, so you can leech off everyone's money and ruin lives, just like Marx and his "students"
>>68090526
>My humble opinion is that Communism was meant as a doctrine that only exists as a counterpart to nationalism
Your basis is wrong, you need a strong society and social cause to start Communism, which value their artist and writers over other capitalists ones.
>>68091374
Neither does a "Communist State", seriously just stop trying to bring "equality" as a detraction of Communism.
>>68091414
State capitalism would be when the only employer is the state. wasn't this true in the USSR? even to open a corner store you would have to rent the property from the government, have all operations approved by them, acquire all goods/materials from them, send all your revenues to them, and they will send you a meager paycheck. It's as if the business owner was only a cashier, with all the responsibilities of an owner, but none of the benefits that come with such responsibilities.
>>68091600
Actually, can I achieve free enterprise? Can I purchase property? Can I earn more money? Can my merits be recognized with exceptional gain relative to others? What is this new kind of communism you have shown me?
>>68091630
Except he is very, very wrong on everything.
the conditions necessary to bring about "real communism" are so abhorrent to mankind that it can never come about
see Bolsheviks slaughtering farmers, see Mao's cultural revolution, see Pol Pot's killing of anyone wearing glasses
>>68091037
>socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.
ROFLMAO GOD DAMN IDIOT COMMIES
>>68091037
>socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production
WITH NO ONE IN CHARGE, WHO MAKES CERTAIN EVERYTHING IS OWNED BY EVERYONE ?
NO GOV, MEANS NO POLICE, OR DO YOU JACKOFFS CHEAT BY CALLING MINI STATES " SOVIETS OF THE FACTORY WORKERS" IN OTHER WORDS, GOD DAMNED GOV PIGS IN THOUSANDS OF LOCAL PIG GOVS THE SIZE OF A DIEM ?
and the absence of social classes,
AND SO WHOM EXACTLY RUNS AROUND EVENING ALL THE SHIT OWNED OUT ALL THE TIME ? IS EVERY HOME AND CAR THE SAME, BECAUSE IF IT AIN'T THERE ARE CLASSES... CLOTHES ARE 100% THE SAME UNIFORM, ELSE THERE ARE CLASSES.
WHAT GOD DAMNED FORCE ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE ARISE TO MAKE EVERYTHING EQUAL ?
money,
AHH, NO VOUCHERS EITHER ? SO IT'S ALL BARTER TRADEY TRADEY - OR BETTER YET JUST WALK DOWN TO THE LOCAL COMMUNE STORE AND GRAB WHATEVER YOU WANT....
[3][4] and the state.
ONCE AGAIN, WHO THEN ENFORCES ANYTHING AT ALL - THE MOST BASIC LAWS ?
YOU PEOPLE ARE GOD DAMNED INSANE
YOUR FUCKING HEAVEN DOES NOT EXIST ANYWHERE, AND NEVER HAS, NOT 2000 YEARS AGO, NOT OVER IN RUSSIA, NOT UP THE CHICOMS ASS, NO FUCKING WHERE - THE GOD DAMNED HIPPY TOKE CIRCLE CAN'T EVEN DO IT AS THERE ARE GOD DAMNED BOGARRTS, BAG HOLDERS, AND CASTE CLASS CLIQUES
YOU TOTALLY SUCK ASS IN PURE IDIOTIC FANTASY - THAT'S YOUR ANSWER- YOUR MAGIC FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE FAIRY TALE THAT CAN NEVER OCCUR
>>68072692
>Syrup nigger education
>>68069627
People are too uneducated, short-sighted, greedy, and under-developed to actually do it, so it gets stuck in transitional "dictatorship of the proletariat" mode, which is awful.
>>68090230
>People are altruistic, but they also desire to be competitive.
but people can compete to be the best, not simpy for reward
communism gives people that scope, to follow their dreams provided
A. it's in the common good
B. they don't expect to get rich
capitalism teaches "get good at something that will make you wealthy", it screams it out every day to the people; don't get respect, get money. don't help people, have people work for you.
"stratification" exists in many senses, of course ability will be stratified, but this does not mean welbeing has to be stratified accordingly
the communist ideal is achieving greatness for your fellow man, it's not about climbing the highest up mountain, it's getting anyone to the top
>>68091414
Okay, I'll try and explain:
>Capitalism is defined by private ownership Western capitalism perhaps, as described by the west. But no, what is capitalism when you take a reductionist theory to it? It's a person or group acting for the creation of surplus capital.
What did the Soviet Union as an economic entity do? An example: It owned a factory. It hired the manager/s who then hired workers who it then paid a wage in return for his/her labor, and kept the surplus value. When you look at it broken down, there is no difference as far as the details.
Now you might say that the state was a common/public entity and thus was working within the interests of the workers. You may be right, to some extent. But the truth of the matter is: if something is commonly owned, it is held accountable to the public and to democratic votes. The Soviet Union, despite having its own pseudo democracy, wasn't democratic. The people at the top weren't accountable to the people. You could either vote for the candidate the Communist Party put forth or none at all. That isn't democracy and thus, it wasn't common property, it was a small group of oligarchs controlling the direction of the country. Needless to say, it collapsed. It might've given the workers a bone, but that doesn't make it a Workers state. Just a degenerated/deformed Workers state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformed_workers%27_state
People need to understand the reason that communism doesn't work is because communism tries to layout a strict set of rules that everyone must follow for the system to work.
You're free... as long as you follow the system.
You can do whatever you want... as long as you follow the system.
etc
America has no strict set of rules that makes it 'capitalist'. The American people are free to choose. If the American people wanted they could get their state government or local government to be as communist as it gets as long as it doesn't violate the Constitution, which basically lays out how government will function and your fundamental rights.
The American people at times chose for the government to get involved and at times chose for the government not to get involved. The American people mostly chose to live in a free economy with degrees of government intervention they explicitly authorized. America doesn't have some autistic set of strict arbitrary rules they need to follow in order to implement 'capitalism'. All we have is a layout of your inalienable rights and a foundation for government, the rest is up to the people.
Communism want's everyone to follow a strict set of arbitrary autistic rules to get the system to work.
You HAVE to somehow divide all the means of production among the people.
You CANNOT own land.
There CANNOT be any forms of private ownership.
You CANNOT leave inheritance to your own children.
You CANNOT voluntarily agree with a worker to produce a certain set of goods using your own resources in exchange of giving them a wage. Their wage HAS TO EQUAL the value of their production, what ever that 'value' is.
>>68091037
this
the soviet union wasn't a communist state, it was a totalitarian oligarchy, like china
>>68091874
Political Commisar Bomqueesha has now deemed your home "property of everyone"
You don't want a dozen homeless people in there? Too bad, it's for the greater good
>>68092049
>all forms of communism are authoritarian
>communists cant own things
nice memes kid
>>68073412
>China is a communist country
not really it's Capitalistic in a lot of ways and communist in others
>>68089168
shut the fuck up
>>68091716
So you dropped the equality farce for actual questions.
>Actually, can I achieve free enterprise?
You can use state/commune given materials to construct state/commune products that you can consume/utilize IN MODERATION.
>Can I purchase property?
You can use it, and based on the use you/society gives it will either be considered personal property or state property.
>Can I earn more money?
If you work more, yes, all extra hours are completely recognized as long as they were worked.
>Can my merits be recognized with exceptional gain relative to others?
Refer to the previous question, but yes, if you go to the space and live (Yuri Gagarin) you are recognized as a national hero and get ONE of best chicks and ONE house plus medals.
Any more questions?
>>68091970
>common good
Who decides what that is? A group of people? There's oligarchy
>the communist ideal is achieving greatness for your fellow man
So who will achieve greatness for me if everyone is working for it for someone else? I no longer have agency?
Communism makes no sense at all
>>68091874
Gj burger, you sure got me.
>>68091630
Can't argue with that, morons give me a headache and so I turn somewhat nasty. Oh well.
>>68091573
>>68091532
That's nice, I was merely stating that I'm not a high school student and gave my current life profession/direction. Believe whatever you want kid.
>>68091453
No, that is Communism. According to Marx, in order to achieve communism, you need to have a successful Socialist stage, which follows a successful Capitalist stage. The Soviet Union or the states that followed it's example did not have either.
>>68091426
That's nice, I'm Australian actually.
>>68092163
where did i say authoritarian :')
rules =/= authoritarian
system =/= authoritarian
oh someone must be a bit insecure if the first thing you thought was "REEEE COMMUNISM IS NOT AUTHORITARIAN"
all I said that communism was a system :')
>>68092050
Maoist China was as close to communism as has ever been performed and we can all see how that turned out for the "common man"
>>68092225
>Yes if you go to space,
I think he means being more qualified in certain fields. same goes for the can I earn more money part
>>68091930
What is actually "good" about communism?
Where does achievement come into play?
What about self-actualization?
>>68091710
Ah so essentially it's a Corporate State, just like Fascism.
But, in that, sense, wouldn't every single state be a State Capitalist state unless it didn't exist? Seems to me the whole ideology falls apart since I personally don't believe a giant Communist nation is able to live both without stratification and to evenly distribute goods (the necessities for life) among a massive nation wide populace without a central beuocracy to manage it
>>68091970
>it's getting anyone to the top
It's certainly a noble cause, but it seems doomed to failure since it still inherently denies individual transcendence. It believes only in societal transcendence at the expense of the individual and that individual's desire, everything is for the commune... And to me, it just seems like it wouldn't work on a national level with a population of millions of people. It's Crab Mentality made manifest.
>>68091997
Right, okay refer to my response to >>68091710
I present you faggots, Integralism!
Inter-regional trade and relations. Indentity through Union! Union through Relationship!
A faith to guide us all to a common better future, where dialogue is guaranteed. Where mutual prosperity is the prime goal.
Everything under one faith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Integralism
>>68091997
>But the truth of the matter is: if something is commonly owned, it is held accountable to the public and to democratic votes.
That isn't democracy and thus, it wasn't common property,
So in your insane impossible fantasy "democracy that is communism" - you all get to vote - now who counts the votes, collects the tally, and tells everyone what was voted ?
WTF are you assholes voting on anyway ? EVERYTHING is what.
In your collective factory who he fuck makes all the decisions... of you vote on it - well SHIT - PRODUCTION JUST WENT DOWN 90%, PEOPLE ARE STARVING AND SHOES HAVE HOLES SINCE YOU'RE ALL VOTING ALL GOD DAMNED DAY, GETTING INFORMED ON EVERYTHING, AND BY THE WAY, WHO WRITES UP THE VOTING MEASURES ?
THE BIG POWERFUL COMMITTEE - OR DO YOU ALL VOTE ON WHAT TO VOTE ON ?
WHO DECIDES WHAT THERE IS TO VOTE ON THAT YOU VOTE ON - DO YOU HOLD A VOTE FOR THAT TOO -- IF SO
WUUTTTTT THHHEEEE FUCCCKKKKK
It doesn't breed innovation, but stagnation.
>>68092520
>Where does achievement come into play?
>What about self-actualization?
My understanding is that it's just a system of economic relations based on cooperation rather than selfishness.
If you need money to achieve or self-actualize, you're at least not doing the latter.
>>68069873
>Mexico
>>68092671
Can you stop typing in all caps kid, It's hard to read. Also in response to what you said: It's not hard to create regulations and recommendations on how and when to vote.
>>68092225
THAT MAKES METAL SPACE MAN WITH HOTTIE WHORE A SPECIAL FUCKING SUPERCLASS YOU GOD DAMNED TRAITOR TO COMMUNISM !!!!!
FUCKK YOUUU YOU'RE REPORTED TO THE KREMLIN ! TO THE GOD DAMNED VOTING COLLECTIVE !!! YOU'RE BOTH GOING TO BURN ! YOU AND SPACE MEDAL MAN HERO ! A FUCKING HERO ?!!!
A SPECIAL ULTRA CLASS COMMIE HERO
THAT WORD IS BANNED YOU FUCKING PROLETARIAT RUBE
>>68074801
As someone who worked in Vietnam (and most of SE Asia for that matter) that picture you post is highly misleading. All those new towers were built in the last 5-10 years since they opened their markets to........wait for it........capitalists. I lived in China for 5 years and saw the same thing there, they were starving until they opened their markets to the west. Look at the Shanghai before and after China opening it's market.
>>68092763
Money is necessary for some people to self-actualize
Not everyone is content with being at the same level as everyone else
We as a species are not natural leaders, it's why government exists, that's why we look for people to lead us and this can be seen going back to the Stone Age where a single man would decide the fate of the group
And how can you ever do away with selfishness which is the desire to fulfill your needs whatever they may be?
![[china sounds heard in the distance].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/blY1wTq.jpg "[china sounds heard in the distance]")
>>68069627
fantasy land bull shit that requires killing off all sense of individualism and letting the government micro manage everything because the remaining people are emotional children or mindless husks.
>>68092731
Who put the first man in space?
>>68092520
It would be good in the sense that lots of things are theoretically wasted in capitalism and in fact, in any competitive system.
All the companies that go bankrupt are examples of waste, all the advertising money is waste. War is waste. People spend their lives work on ideas that don't go anywhere because they thought it would be a good idea but wasn't.
Communism is almost like saying "what if instead of having two companies compete with eachother and one go out of business, we just had the smartest people figure out what the better company would've been and implement that plan in the first place?"
It's that dumb. It's saying that we don't need evolution or competition in order to drive evolution. In fact they even have a system of thinking about progress resulting out of competing ideas, the dialectic, which replaces competition in their system.
>>68092501
>I think he means being more qualified in certain fields. same goes for the can I earn more money part
That's an implementation detail really. Studying is both "working" for the person and investment by the state that pays your college bill, instead of paying a loan you do service, if you make good contributions you get field promotions or more perks.
You can pick between a university desk job and a burger flipping job, toilet cleaning job no problem but I really don't think you will enjoy the last two really.
>>68092892
Then you have A COMMAND STRUCTURE GOVERNMENT, AND WHO MAKES THE REGS AND WHAT TO VOTE ON AND WHO CHANGES THAT WHEN THERE ARE NO SOCIAL CLASSES ?
>>68089234
survivability of nations is based on so many factors that a bad sociological model cannot be said to be the cause in a failed nation in almost all cases. marxism is untrue. plain and simple.
bickering about history is pointless and detracts from the substantive point, which is that marxism is untrue, thats all that matter when you talk about marxism.
>>68092961
Fuck you and your "individualism." What about the common welfare you selfish cuck?
>>68092999
>what if instead of having two companies compete with eachother and one go out of business, we just had the smartest people figure out what the better company would've been and implement that plan in the first place?"
Who is supposed to bring those people together?
What if they have competing ideas?
Who decides which idea to pursue?
The "smartest people?"
Who decides who they are?
>>68069627
there's no incentive
>>68089571
Socialist alliance faggot pls go
>>68092955
>Money is necessary for some people to self-actualize
>
>Not everyone is content with being at the same level as everyone else
First, it's not clear that self-actualization is actually a thing. Second, if you need money to "prove" you've exceeded others then you clearly have a hollow set of values and can't self-actualize at all. You should try to actually do something that is in itself fulfilling, not try to make money to show you're superior like some philistine.
Also you seem to be under the impression that I'm actually a communist. I was merely answering OP's question.
Bump limit achieved on a Communist thread!
It has been a while,Good work comrades!
>>68073412
They are communist in name only. Go to Guang Zhou or Beijing, they've embraced capitalism with such zeal.
>>68092556
No arguments there. As soon as the "state" grows beyond the ability to communally manage stratification is necessary. So communism can work in small tribes if everyone does their share plus the shares of those unable to contribute, but that is a far far cry from any civilization as a whole. If all these people clamoring for communism and social democracy want, they can come to our remote frigid isolated north to play their social experiment.
>>68092320
>Who decides what that is? A group of people? There's oligarchy
well someone has to administer a system, and that can either be a small group of people, or the common man in a more laise-faire system of communism
there is nothing to say a communist system can't be democratic either, a common misconception; communism oposes capitalism, not democracy
people in a communist system still have agency, and greatness is perhaps the wrong word
it's the difference between me working in a factory for someone who just takes all the money, and hoping I will one day be that person
and working in a factory for someone who shares the gains with me, and hoping the factory does well for everyone's sake
that is the key difference, the person on top is forced to give back to the people on the bottom, so ther person on the bottom is incentivised to work
Think about it people, this god damned 1800 infected moron leech karl marx thinks...
MONEY WILL WITHER AWAY....
Now how do people get and exchange without money - oh- dumb shit marx decided capitalist pigdom would produce super surplus then the leech assholes and everyone else would just share and share alike equally all over the whole world....
oh look, I have 3 twinkies and carl the cuck only has one, as he's wondering why I asked him a question about the biols on marx's ass, i hand him my extra twinkie now we both have two...
luckily being fat is outlawed in marxy commieville utopia so im as cucked as carl
>>68093302
Lol, no. The Party/faction that I most identify with is the Labor Right or Labor Unity, who are for all intents and purposes, Keynesian capitalists.
>>68093426
>capitalist pigdom would produce super surplus
it kind of does though. I mean, per-capita GDP of $55k?
>>68093426
>MONEY WILL WITHER AWAY....
Like all materials things, everything withers even us.
Refer to https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1&version=NIV
>>68092357
>There CANNOT be any forms of private ownership.
>Communism want's everyone to follow a strict set of arbitrary autistic rules to get the system to work.
>You're free... as long as you follow the system.
You can do whatever you want... as long as you follow the system.
I think it's clear to everyone that you see a communist system as stritly authoritarian
>>68093307
>I f you need money to "prove" you've exceeded others then you clearly have a hollow set of values and can't self-actualize at all. You should try to actually do something that is in itself fulfilling, not try to make money to show you're superior like some philistine
This is your opinion
What if I want to be better than everyone else?
What if my ideas are superior to what everyone else deems "right?"
The USSR nearly starved to death because gene research was made illegal, lest it provide truth to the idea that certain individuals are born superior to others (led to mass crop failure)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_research_in_the_Soviet_Union
I don't care whether you're communist or no I'm just taking on the argument
>>68093233
one doesn't exclude the other. individualism is only condemnable when you take advantage over someone else.
Regional trade and development lead to wealth and knowledge distribution. Which when connected to a greater network, its capacity sure will be exponentially amplified.
And of all that while respecting and maintaining private and regional rights and custumes.
>>68092411
well that's part of the point, most large scale communist venture shave been hijacked by power-hungry oportunists, and because the global communist uprising happened more or less at the same time lessons wern't learnt
the fight for a communist state has never been won, you cannot say something won't work simply because it hasn't been achieved yet
>>68093307
>You should try to actually do something that is in itself fulfilling, not try to make money to show you're superior like some philistine.
I see, so under commieclitism, or commieclatachism, one has no ego, and no self esteem.... because that could cause a class warfare type situation
In this commie world are there like praise signs around so we can identify the great achievers of virtuous uplifting of the commie society - because otherwise they're wearing the same shit grey torn hoody and muddy shoes, drive the same 40 year old bicycle from the local collective rack, and shit - i guess they just get to be warm inside because no classy money things to prove how great they did for the collective...
REALY MUTHER FUCKERS MARX AND LIBTURDS ARE INSANE
>>68092556
>It's certainly a noble cause, but it seems doomed to failure since it still inherently denies individual transcendence. It believes only in societal transcendence at the expense of the individual and that individual's desire, everything is for the commune... And to me, it just seems like it wouldn't work on a national level with a population of millions of people. It's Crab Mentality made manifest.
you are using words oddly, do you mean that it denies the individual mobility within society?
do you mean that it doesn't give people the option to be anti-social or to not participate?
>>68093407
>the person on top is forced to give back to the people on the bottom, so ther person on the bottom is incentivised to work
>forced
If I'm on top why even bother then if everyone else gets the same? Some idea of altruism that others have deemed to be right?
>>68093809
>>68093809
>>68093809
>>68093809
New thread
>>68093708
Is it a coincidence that the people who clamor for communism also oppose genetically modified food?
>>68093169
you are making a statement that marxism is false, yet you provide no evidence
so all I can do it contradict you and say marxism IS true
you won't sway anyone with a claim and no evidence or reasoning
>>68093870
>If I'm on top why even bother then if everyone else gets the same? Some idea of altruism that others have deemed to be right?
Because guess what, when you started @ age zero you weren't at the top, nor your fathers, nor your grandparents.
>>68093723
>Regional trade and development lead to wealth and knowledge distribution. Which when connected to a greater network, its capacity sure will be exponentially amplified.
SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THE UPPER COMMIE CLASSES ARE RUNNING THAT SHIT - AND WITH THE MASSIVE MOVEMENT OF ENDLESS SURPLUS COMMIE GOODS - THOSE AT THE TOP ARE GOING TO BE SWIMMING IN EVERYTHING THE SHIPPING CONTAINERS HAVE TO OFFER...
HOW THE FUCK IS THAT CLASSLESS DEMOCRATIC COMMIE EQUALITY ?
>>68093543
Communism has to be authoritarian in order to work
Competing interests do not all of a sudden some together because someone said it's the right thing to do
You cannot do away with competition because how else would you know what succeeds?
>>68093870
the idea is that only people who seek to rise for the good of everyone are allowed to
which is a massive plus
people who want to rise just for themselves are kept down
>>68092225
That sounds interesting, however why is the state telling me what moderation is, and why can't my merits be rewarded by their objective worth.
Also since when is there supposed to be a state in communism?
>>68093733
>well that's part of the point, most large scale communist venture shave been hijacked by power-hungry oportunists, and because the global communist uprising happened more or less at the same time lessons wern't learnt
>the fight for a communist state has never been won, you cannot say something won't work simply because it hasn't been achieved yet
Arguing from the negative
Akin to the religious saying that God must exist because there's no evidence to prove otherwise
>>68093769
They're from the same core..
Miguel Reale wrote "Desde que o marxismo passou a ser a critica da sociedade capitalista e (…) um método cômodo de estudar a sociedade burguesa, muitas ideias acessórias vieram se unir a tese fundamental da limitação da propriedade individual ou da sua supressão. Hoje em dia não é mais possível separá-las. O ateísmo, a abolição da senpaiília, o internacionalismo dos povos, o materialismo em todos os sentidos da vida, tudo está tão entrelaçado ao ideal socialista, que nos deparamos com um grande paradoxo: É preciso ter espírito estritamente burguês para abraçar o comunismo."
>"É preciso ter espírito estritamente burguês para abraçar o comunismo."
>You need to have a strictly bourgeois spirit to embrace communism."
>>68094023
There's no one at the top. All relations are regulated regionally. No need for a central power since the common goal is already a consensus. The local hierarchy is irrelevant.
>>68094049
>people who want to rise just for themselves are kept down
Kept down by who?
That's authoritarianism
>>68094036
>Communism has to be authoritarian in order to work
well that is a pretty big claim
and it also collates having strict rules with having broad rules
communist has strict rules about a few key things, but that doesn't mean it constricts the life of the people
>Competing interests do not all of a sudden some together because someone said it's the right thing to do
some people can do that, why should a communist state tollerate people who can't or won't come together for the common good
the basis of you argument is "it won't work if nobody wants to do it"
that's like saying "capitalism won't work if people won't trade for money"
and you measure sucess at the executive level
instead of two companies undermining each other, they both work in the same way and the governmnet looks at both and sees which works
a capitalist system has two companies building railroads side by side to see who gets there faster, using twice the resources and taking twice the time
>>68094326
except it was you that made the point that communism is invalid because it doesn't work
you say it doesn't work because it hasn't worked before
I say that's a poor measure of potential and refute you
>>68094404
like I said, there are a few key rules that are enforced
A. nobody undermines the common good for personal gain
B. nobody engages in mutually destructive competition
C. nobody forms sub-interest groups to push for minority benefit over the common man
but everyone has rules, that doesn't make an authoritarian state
and it comes down to your definition of authoritatian, to a degree all government is authoritarian
>>68069627
I'm listening to this right now.
>>68069627
>Please explain to me what is wrong with Communism.
Nothing, mass euthenasia to manifest non-falsifiable prophecies of historical inevitability has great benefits for the planet.
>>68095046
>Implying that capitalism hasn't caused more deaths.
