MFW I read Michel Foucault and realized he anticipated the usage of this new morality (SJW) as a means to control people and maintain power.
>>67972731
but political correctness isnt new
>>67972731
nietzsche had already done that famalam
>>67972816
This; all of this shit was predicted 50-100 years ago by people like Nietzche, Evola, and Guenon.
>>67972731
which book should i start reading first?
>>67972939
>Evola, and Guenon.
literal garbage
and Plato and Aristotle had already predicted it
>>67972731
Foucault is a faggot, read Hobbes you nigger
Discipline and Punishment is a must read for anyone imo
A pity so many SJW's use Foucault's ideas about critical theory as the basis for their shit.
>>67973230
My french is shit, are the translations any good?
>>67972816
Not to the extent Foucault did. Foucault applied some of Nietzsche's lessons. What Foucault talked about was how discursive practices (e.g: "Black Lives Matter!" as both a expression of black supremacy and an expression of revolt from their deluded state of 'oppression') are something that has to be permitted and that permittedness of it, that's power.
Foucault did take the lessons of Nietzsche of trying to transcend the dialectic through grounding in history.
The more I read it, the more I am wondering if what is happening today is more of a symptom of how we communicate.
>>67972773
Damn right it isn't new. But political correctness, or victorian morality, or whatever regime, existed. What's interesting about his work is how well he elucidated how power functions with these systems of morality.
I think this is the first time a system of morality is being applied to rob people of some means, but not real wealth. It functions in two ultimate ways, whether we agree with the moral system or not: either we support our guilt through volunteer amelioration, or we are charged and convicted by this guilt and our stuff is taken.
the issue in this discursive power is guilt. it's the same mechanism as before. it's just different guilt, and the notion of guilt has to have a system that affirms it legitimacy, otherwise resistance to it won't be viewed as bad.
>>67973134
Hobbes doesn't even apply anymore. The faggot was right, which is interesting. The faggot said power is ethics.
>>67973244
I am working on this bernie maymay. SJWs do not even fucking understand Foucault. They just use it because foucault said prison and who is in prison and who is criminal is political, but they ignore this connection or claim and just see: black people in prison because of politics, never stopping to wonder why they want to send people in prison for politics too.
>>67973230
the guy who invented that 3d lower receiver mentioned it to glen beck in an interview.
>>67972939
No it wasn't. The tools and means, and how it works, that's Foucault. All was predicit, even by Hegel, was that there were transitions in how society is organized. Every philosopher had theories of this change. Some viewed it as progressive (progressing to something greater), others view it as dialectic (as an internal mechanism) and Nietzsche viewed it as purely historical.
>>67973276
Yes and no. His word is insanely difficult to read unless you get familiar with a few ideas, which is easy enough thanks to the internet.
>>67973615
>Hobbes doesn't even apply anymore.
Expound please.
>>67973336
>The more I read it, the more I am wondering if what is happening today is more of a symptom of how we communicate.
What i mean by this is, again, to look into another french theorist, the issue of how the way we consume images/words/things via mediums (tv, radio, internet) creates an impression of what is real and we conflate what we experience in real life, with what we witness.
Applying this idea, what would white BLM supporters feel if they didn't get an impression of how life is in the hood, how police/black interactions aren't the way the media depicts it, how the average black person encounters it, like what would those nuances bring to the table? It would make issues like trayvon martin more complex and less simple than what the narrative presents to them.
this sounds like I am talking about encouraging more red pilling, but the problem with this is that, by red pilling, by presenting an position contra to the narrative, it is as effective as just increasing the contrast. The trick, I think, to destroy BLM, is to make it hard to simplify the conditions that led to those folks being shot (e.g: trayvon martin was being shady, but he did beat a man who shot him in self defense).
>>67974046
Back in hobbes day, there was no media like it is today. The notion of the social contract, which is a great concept, is still there today, but he never addressed how the social contract changes, how legitimacy is maintained across governments, or regimes, how regimes create legitimacy. How the formation of certain discursive practices (SJWs activity) relate to positions of power. Foucault abandoned the notion of dialectical thinking, of oppressed/oppressor when he realized communism/marxism was a fail.
>>67972731
Philosophical and anthropological writing, though insightful, is mostly read by academic circles. It ensures quality, but what wisdom it's meant to convey about society stagnates there.
For example, the average person or policy maker could have benefited from Foucault's bio-power and body politics theories to counteract the SJW scourge, however the jargon and style of his writing would be baffling for them.
My point is that we need academics such as philosophers and anthropologists to investigate and caution against the path society around them takes, but their works need to be more accessible to the layman without undermining their message or coming across as pretentious and sermonizing.
>>67974308
>For example, the average person or policy maker could have benefited from Foucault's bio-power and body politics theories to counteract the SJW scourge, however the jargon and style of his writing would be baffling for them.
100% but...
here is the thing: even if people know, people are vested in networks of power. the SJWs use whatever seems to be an excuse to conduct a sort of class warfare. they never ask if expanding the definition of rape to include everything is doing what Foucault said was the nature of the judicial system, and not at all 'undermining it'.
I think a lot of anthropologists who aren't too interested in getting in the fray are doing what they always have done: stay out of it and watch it as if its an alien civilization. One of my profs said that the way the political discourse is heading, one where certain positions cannot be aired, will lead to subversion, that oppression of these positions, or the fact they aren't being aired in a way representative of those who hold them, will lead to just more polarization and extremism.
>>67974308
the ultimate irony is that those who can benefit the most from the insights of critical theory to fight their battles has written it off as being part of a global conspiracy.
>>67972731
>>67973336
>>67974047
Once humans stop believing in a "fair world" system it all be ok senpai.
>>67974827
>tfw most of the past few years have been studying a curriculum composed of decolonization
Whether it social anthropology, history or philosophy, it's all been tainted somehow by it. The whole country is going to shit, and people are guilt-tripping.
It all started to show recently from the #feesmustfall (which was just to lower student costs and show better transparency of government spending), but the blacks turned academic institutions into colonial conspiracy theories.
Go to bed, Mr. Haven.
>all these long-winded posts
why aren't you memeing
>>67973615
Unfortunately Foucault, despite being a brillant mind, is one of those French philosophers who write like German philosophers used to: dry, boring and tough way. They have no excuses though, French being a lot more flexible and "smooth" than German (from a syntactical standpoint).
Bourdieu, Kundera or Finkielkraut on the other hand are truly a pleasure to read - even when translated to English.
>>67975767
I want a discussion.
first we discuss, then we meme once we have some conclusions.
>>67975630
not my school. decolonization is there, but we live in canada and Canadians gotta confront the cost of decolonization with out injuns. and a lot of universities in the world are plain shitty, desu.
many state universities in america are shit tier both in what they teach and international rankings, and the students who come out of there, they get the worse education possible.
fine, the 'subaltern' can speak, but why are the they speaking, what are the speaking, and how are they speaking should be the next question.
The second Foucault is mentioned, I'm done.
I've read as much Foucault as I can stomach, and I've concluded that there is nothing to be gleaned from it. I've read quite a few theorists with whom I disagree, but Foucault is absolutely unintelligible.
Future historians may happen upon for Foucault for a moment or two and smile to themselves. It will seem so quaint to them that we were decadent enough to entertain these delusions and study them seriously.
The bottom line is that both Nazism and Zionism were sponsored by the same banking cartel and had complementary goals. The rise of anti Semitism in Europe served to create the State of Israel, which President Assad of Syria described as a "dagger in the heart of the Arab nations."
Think about it. Hitler could have just confiscated all the Jewish wealth. Instead he used the "Haavara Program" to help establish the State of Israel. According to Polkehn, Hitler personally guaranteed this program in the face of opposition. It lasted until the beginning of the war.
>>67976031
I like Bourdieu too, way easier to read. Bourdieu said something about the nature of middle class habitus as being aspiration. Our current economic conditions do not allow it for it be aspirational anymore, the political message now is: if you are middle class, you are lucky, right?
The middle class never turned its back on the values of those in higher, wealthier, classes because they felt there was mobility to get up there, to live like them. Their cultural values of affirming rich tastes without knowing why isn't there anymore.
>>67976193
>cuck cuck cuckodoodledoo
You clearly never read foucault, nor took the effort to understand what he said. The irony is that Foucault seems pretty right about most things, including his work on islam, that islam (islam is independent of race, thus has the potential to be a hegemonic ideology) as a moral/theological system is not only all encompassing in how it governs, but is foundationally opposed to everything western.
>>67976193
I sort of agree with you. It might have to do with his writing style which, as I said above, is very "german" (and typical of the second part of the 20th century - thank god that trend has died out). This makes his work very hard to read in French so I can't imagine what a translation to English would look like.
It's a shame because the man brings in lots of interesting points as well as some pretty solid theoretical contributions.
You should probably try to read commentary of his work made by english-speaking scholars rather than the original work translated to en.
>>67976568
In what book does he say that? I need to read-up on that; if it were to be true that would be like Kryptonite to some SJW I know.
>>67972939
>all of this shit was predicted 50-100 years ago by people like Nietzche
It wasn't predicted by Nietzche, he was the goddamn father of this postmodern abomination.
>>67976653
The best of his work, imo, is his examination of how modes of thinking changed in western/french history. Order of things.
What I love about this election cycle is how hillary is basically co-opting bernie's rhetoric, like how she progressed from not using it/understanding it to now performing it. The democrats gain political power the same way third world countries maintain power: mobilize one group and pay them rents from the public purse.
>>67973068
"Discipline and Punish" is often considered his flagship book. May also want to look into "the order of things"
Bear with me since I've never read the actual philosophy behind this (though I plan to), but someone once explained to me that people like Foucault, and postmodern philosophy (things like social constructivism, critical theory, moral relativism, etc) is deceptively leftist at first glance, but actually often ends up being a secret weapon of the political right when taken to their logical conclusions. The implication being that the right hasn't quite figured out how to use it yet.
Antone care to explain?
>>67976809
He wasn't the father of it. postmodern conditions arose because of how the world changed. a philosopher and his books didn't lead to its change. that's fucking silly. what led to the change was many many things, but most importantly, the fact that populations grew, that protestantism enabled a personal relationship with god, that meaning and what things mean is directly tied to power, and power was shifting.
>>67976731
His stuff on the Iranian revolution. He spoke of a type of 'islamic' democracy that expressed the will of the people but through a theological discursive practice (aka using islam to justify shit). But power again would be located to the islamic elites/scholars, as people wouldn't be able to resist as easily because, you know, eternal domination.
He said islamic power doesn't come from state power (police, prisons), but from the religion itself. the question of discipline and legitimacy stems from those who can speak in those religious intonations. I think this is how they rule east london. I think this how they can effectively rule, and yet not have state power, and yet pose a danger to the state that hosts it.
>>67977583
>a philosopher and his books didn't lead to its change. that's fucking silly
>What is hyperbole?
>>67977529
easy:
the people in the left, american left, were taught in undergrad to make an argument worth a mark on your essay, you need to cite a source. So they cite sources with cursory significance, but they never do the hard work to actually think critically and evaluate and do what philosophy folks do. The cancer we are facing stems from departments that want to make themselves useful, so they took up advocacy by doing (what in canada is called area studies, interdisciplinary studies) and in america, you guys also have the party that rules by hand outs, the democrats.
the disease of identity politics grew up in america. It doesn't make sense in europe because the welfare state was always there for the singular people of the nation (ethnic germans, ethnic french). In america, the dems championed and pioneered a way of ruling that is driven by hand outs, abusing the welfare state as a means to help some (who they want pay for a vote) to force others to pay.
Continental philosophy is full of shit with verbose, obscurantist clowns like Derrida (and Foucault to a less extent). You can thank them for SJW with bullshit ideas like "subaltern" which are the vocabulary of shrill leftists in academia everywhere.
Analytic philosophy with clear, concise writing and pure, cold logic blow this away.
>>67976568
That's complete nonsense. Islam holds up Arabs as the master race.
>>67977879
What literature would you recommend on this subject? And what literature would you recommend in general?
>>67977805
if you believe a book can change shit, then you are forgotten that christians put a lot of resources to spread their faith. Books don't change shit, and some changes cannot be attributed to the agency of one group of people or person.
post-modernism arose because of industrialization: which brought to the forefront that 1 thing can be/mean two or more things to different or even the same people. It's the first 'alienation'.
Like, if nothing means anything: why is it that if you park your car in the wrong parts of town with a trump sticker, it will get keyed? Why is there a group of people who are so sure, so strongly convicted in their morality, that to them, your beliefs and values are dangerous? Why are conservatives today are being persecuted as if they were homosexuals in the 50s?
The answer: there is a shift in morality, driven by politics. Post-modernism is a description of conditions, the conditions that allows the significances of conservatism, traditionalism to hold in face of a new moralism/ethics.
>>67972731
Foucault was a degenerate faggot who got AIDS. It straightened him out: he got treatment in the same hospital whose historical use as a madhouse he had attacked at the start of his career, and reconsidered things.
>>67978135
Islam is more dangerous than just race. Islam doesn't hold up arabs are more superior, and this is why it is dangerous. It's a conquering religion because, again, the elements of how discipline and legitimacy function.
like, not sure if pol knows this, but the islam today practiced stems from saudi cleric/scholarship. if america wants to defang islam, you gotta do what king henry has done to Christendom: create your own brand and control it, and spread it.
>>67978483
He was a yuge faggot, but he was still right.
>>67978313
>It's the first 'alienation'.
Do you mean alienation in the context of Marxist philosophy?
>there is a shift in morality, driven by politics.
Who drives it, and what benefit is it to them? Most importantly, how do you stop it?
>>67978595
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Racism
>>67978779
Marx wasn't the first to identify that alienation. Hegel did before him, and others before hegel. The fact it exist is nothing spectacular. It has always existed, religion probably arose out of a need to address it.
>drives it
america is different from europe, and different countries are different from other countries. Migration and low skill migration in europe has a different history than migration in america.
Foucault's answer is to do 'archeology' and trace the genealogy of things/ideas, and only then, once you do this, you will see. Order of Things and Archeology of Knowledge describes his methodology.
In america: illegal mexicans and blacks are two groups that have their handout for patronage. Asian and Hindu americans are probably best candidates to be attracted to conservatism because they came through different migration programs. And, if pomo conditions do exist, it's a confluence of powers that are enabling it. Again, Foucault would say: dear pajeet, look closely and do history and see how different discursive practices function and change.
>stop it in america
foster contradictions amongst these folks, enable infighting. do not let black lives matter to have a singular meaning. do not let narratives stand. if anti-trump supporters blame you for being racists, show black supporters. if they call them token minorities, throw it back at them.
>>67979964
>Foucault's answer is to do 'archeology' and trace the genealogy of things/ideas, and only then, once you do this, you will see.
So what books and papers would you recommend?
>>67980233
Archeology of Knowledge.
>>67980324
That's it? What about literature that'll help me build a foundation in this area?
>>67980431
Archeology of Knowledge describes his methodology
>The premise of the book is that systems of thought and knowledge ("epistemes" or "discursive formations") are governed by rules (beyond those of grammar and logic) which operate beneath the consciousness of individual subjects and define a system of conceptual possibilities that determines the boundaries of thought and language use in a given domain and period.
and his other works are specific investigations that apply this method.
the methodology provides analytical lenses, which you use in your viewing of the history you want to examine.
you gotta apply it to your own research.
>>67980431
You gotta find a research buddy to show you the ropes. lol.
it isn't about pontificating answers. it's about looking and seeing. it's really research. the way to approach it (dunno if you did university or not, no judgement) is to collect raw data, go deep into their communities, create what foucault calls an archive of discursive statements (aka not etymology/meanings or collection of terms, but statements led to acted upon responses; look for reblogs, reshares, things that register for action today).
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/foucault/#4.3
>>67981235
>You gotta find a research buddy to show you the ropes.
That's nowhere near as easy as it sounds. None of my current friends share any of my interests (physics, unconventional politics, philosophy, etc.). And everyone new that I meet has the same mundane and vapid interests and personality.
>>67981648
research buddy is a prof, that's how researchers are trained. phd is an apprenticeship based system.
All you want is actionable results, right? So just like come up some some tentative understanding of the method he is describing (it's based on the idea that the meaning of sentences aren't its semantics, but what action it brings about) and start looking.
we really need a community of scholars whom are actually doing research for our side.
oh also, Foucault doesn't belong to a single political position. liberalism, communism, conservatism, sjwism are systems/discursive formations.
>>67982129
>phd is an apprenticeship based system.
That's too much of a commitment. I'm currently pursuing medicine anyway.
>So just like come up some some tentative understanding of the method he is describing and start looking.
I'll be checking out that book ASAP.
>we really need a community of scholars whom are actually doing research for our side.
I absolutely agree. I remember my sociology "professor" back in undergrad was a 400 pound land whale who wrote her dissertation of the discrimination of fat people. She was tumblr in human form.
>>67981648
insights I know of right now:
>the schema that SJWs function on encourages the silencing of differences and their denial of the existence of differences is linked to their need for unity. So one of the rules of their discursive practice is that: nothing can challenge that unity.
>>67982441
Sociology should study culture-as-is, to create the best and most accurate picture of how society looks like. That's a shame.
>book
His work builds on a lot of previous scholarship
key points, simplified:
>speech act theory: the meaning of something isn't in the dictionary, but in how it effects action.
>theories on science: what makes a position valid, is it's ability to confirm to the rules of the discourse.
>structuralism: idea of systems as being unchanging and ahistoric. the analogy of structural thinking is chess: the rules never change, but the formation of where the pieces, they are different and historically dependent. foucault says no, the system/the rules change too and change with power, and changes power. it isn't fixed. it's historical.
>ethical premise: we all want liberty to be who we are, and to be ourselves, but we give up that liberty, submit it, to power because power is productive (it gives us something back in return: state power/authority gives us security).
>discursive formations are used to govern people (their actions).
>>67982800
cont'd:
>nothing is linear. there is convergence of strands, and divergences, and things developed elsewhere, are used elsewhere.
>In typically genealogical fashion, Foucault's analysis shows how techniques and institutions, developed for different and often quite innocuous purposes, converged to create the modern system of disciplinary power.
>>67982800
>>67982969
Thanks. It's nice to finally have a constructive and rational conversation on this board.
>>67984075
Too many folks on here just wanna blame joos.
