Redpill me on the Romans, /pol/.
How did a city state founded by a brothers murder become a world power at the time?
Was life as a Roman greater than modern standards?
Why did hey stop at the Rhein?
Why did they have Jesus killed?
How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
Were discipline, honour to ancestors, and respect for the God[s] really as important to Romans as we make them out to be?
How did such great military might fall to barbarians?
Was Rome degenerate like Babylon?
And most importantly: were Romans white?
>>67644544
>How did a city state founded by a brothers murder become a world power at the time?
>He thinks Romulus and Remus were actually real.
Neither were real.
>Was life as a Roman greater than modern standards?
No. The average lifespan was 21 years. Not great at all.
>Why did hey stop at the Rhein?
The German tribes defeated them.
>Why did they have Jesus killed?
Why not?
>How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
Mix of terrorism, appeal to the poor and slaves and a belief that everything was going to shit, so an apocalyptic religion seemed to fit with the times.
>Were discipline, honour to ancestors, and respect for the God[s] really as important to Romans as we make them out to be?
To some degree they were but it depends on things such as era as well. Also there was a difference in class behaviour.
>How did such great military might fall to barbarians?
They started having civil wars all the time and then lost wars against Persia. Leaving them weak to outsiders. They also became dependent on Germanic mercenaries.
>Was Rome degenerate like Babylon?
Define degenerate, Babylon was not really degenerate by the contemporary standards. It was just conquered by a superior force.
>And most importantly: were Romans white?
Yes.
>>67644974
>Neither were real.
THey're a copycat from turkish mythology.
Actual bronze was modified in the 15th century.
How did christianity become the dominant religion is a great question.
Christianity was a tiny little cult of edgy jews who didnt want to be jew's jews, but jew2.0s. They didnt even write down the Gospels (Mark, Matt, Luke) until like 200 AD, so they were barely a religion at all.
Yea Nero blamed the burning of Rome on the christians (many think as a scapegoat) and had them murdered in the Colisseum (thrown to lions, crucified etc.)
But in like 325 AD Constantine, the emporer, is leading his troops into battle, and sees an image of the Chi-Roe in the sky (its the P and the X symbol). He promises to convert to christianity if we wins the battle, and he does and boom.
So a couple possibilities
1- story is true, Ayy Lmaos intervened and made Constantine christian
2 - political cover: constantine wanted to throw off the old Jupiter religion since it wasnt doing him any favors internationally, took up a new, relevant regligion that no big empire had already claimed. Strategic choice?
3- Romans see that christianity is the ultimate sheep religion, and try to use it to psyop the empire.
>>67645331
>Chi-Roe in the sky (its the P and the X symbol)
Nothing to do with god, it's a quite standard field artillery emblem.
>>67645331
>constantine wanted to throw off the old Jupiter religion since it wasnt doing him any favors internationally
If he wanted peace with neighbours he would have stayed with Paganism (for the Europeans) or gone with Zoroastrianism (for Persia).
>>67644974
would you consider italians the descendants of rome? was mussolini right? or are we nothing but pizza niggers.
>>67645446
The answer is your mom.
>>67645517
you are a fucking disgrace, you pile of amphibian shit.
>>67644544
>Redpill me on the Romans, /pol/.
One simple fact will make everyone think much less of the Romans (and Greeks):
The only reason the roman statues are white is because they lost all the paint. In the original they were colored in bright colors. Same is true for their buildings.
The idea of roman-greek aesthetics (uncoloured marble) was made up 1000years after the roman empire collapsed.
>>67645446
The question is what do you mean by a Roman. If you mean a Roman citizen then practically every Italian will be the descendants of Roman citizens. If you mean an ethnic Latin then it depends on where you are from in Italy. Northern Italy had all sorts of Celtic groups and other Italian groups in it and Southern Italy was filled with Greek colonists.
>>67644544
How did a city state founded by a brothers murder become a world power at the time?
Was life as a Roman greater than modern standards?
not for the urban poor, you were mostly stuck in the slums with the military as the only legit way out. Greeks prospered though.
Why did hey stop at the Rhein?
lack of man power, and an interest to strengthen the frontier rather then endless expansion.
Why did they have Jesus killed?
Keep local religious leader happy.
How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
Christianity slowly due to it's tenants and universal philosophy, it uplifted the poor whilst condemning the elite thus it gained popularity among the proles, it continued to expand because roman Christianity wisely used political/economic pressure, propaganda and it's own historic reputation, plus various benefits to get various pagan kingdoms to convert, thus allowing missionaries and churches to start spreading their influence. It was rarely spread by the sword.
Were discipline, honour to ancestors, and respect for the God[s] really as important to Romans as we make them out to be?
Yes.
How did such great military might fall to barbarians?
Endless civil wars, political strife, and lack of stable leadership bankrupted Rome, Rome became less important as more focus was shifted on Constantinople, growing reliance on auxiliaries, growing independent and alienated states in the Roman empire.
Was Rome degenerate like Babylon?
only as much as any other civilization, alot of Roman writers hated degeneracy and regularly accused their worst contemporaries of it. Farming was seen as the ideal life, whilst urban life was seen as degenerate.
And most importantly: were Romans white?
Romans are Romans. White/black/yellow are inefficient labels, ethnic identity is far more meaningful and historically was how most people understood the concept of race. I am Norman British.
>>67645619
Coloured/true edition looks a lot worse...
>>67645755
>It was rarely spread by the sword.
Anon, please. Stop joking. The final years of the Roman Empire were basically a giant religious sectarian war with Christian Emperors slaughtering Pagans and burning down temples.
>>67645828
thats my point: both romans and greeks had absolutely no taste.
The whole idea of their aesthetics is untrue.
In reality everything was disgustingly painted with bright colors.
Looked more like russian kitsch.
>>67645613
t. protestant cuck worshipping bbc
Were Romans the original shitposters?
http://www.pompeiana.org/Resources/Ancient/Graffiti%20from%20Pompeii.htm
>I.2.20 (Bar/Brothel of Innulus and Papilio); 3932: Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men’s behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity!
>II.3.10 (Pottery Shop or Bar of Nicanor; right of the door); 10070: Lesbianus, you defecate and you write, ‘Hello, everyone!’
>VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin.
>>67645619
I'm pretty sure the colored versions hardly looked that tacky. They probably used highlighting, contouring etc,.
Why were the romans so easily cucked by the strong germanic bulls to the north?
Would Rome still be strong today, had they not embraced the ways of the christcuck?
>>67646110
>I.2.20 (Bar/Brothel of Innulus and Papilio); 3932: Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men’s behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity!
Is this the beginning of the mgtow movement?
>>67644544
>How did a city state founded by a brothers murder become a world power at the time?
That's one of many myths relating to the foundation of Rome. Rome became a world power due to being a society that encouraged massive ambition and praised martial virtue, and due to being a society where anyone had the potential to be a great leader, not just royal families like the kingdoms to the east.
>Was life as a Roman greater than modern standards?
No, but compared to the standards before and immediately after, things were pretty good. Standard of living-wise, I think I'd prefer to live in Rome at its height than in anywhere in the world until around the sixteenth century.
>Why did they stop at the Rhine?
Combination of Augustus freaking out after the defeat at Teutoburger Wald and the fact that it makes a really good natural boundary to defend.
>Why did they have Jesus killed?
According to the Bible, that was the fault of the Jews.
>How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
Roman religion was very passive. They didn't go to church or pray like we might, to them the gods were just a fact of life like we might view gravity. Christianity being active and organised was able to push against Roman polytheism without any real push back as a result.
>Were discipline, honour to ancestors, and respect for the God[s] really as important to Romans as we make them out to be?
For blue-blooded families ancestors were highly important. A Roman man was expected to do his best to equal and exceed the achievements of his honoured ancestors, and indeed if one had a consul or two in the family tree that would be very handy politically. Respect for the gods would be more so than society has today, but for aforementioned reasons would be less than Christianity at its height. Discipline was quite important, excess and indulgence were looked upon badly.
>>67646239
>I'm pretty sure the colored versions hardly looked that tacky.
But it did look like this.
There are several papers on that subject.
>>67644544
>don't orate to me or my son ever again
>>67646503
>>67644544
>How did such great military might fall to barbarians?
Internal division, corruption, economic collapse, and a loss in quality of Roman troops, along with an over reliance on Germanic mercenaries.
>Was Rome degenerate like Babylon?
At times in the Imperial era, yes. See the reigns of Caligula and Elagabalus. On the whole though, the society was not. It most certainly was not during the early and mid republic.
>And most importantly: were Romans white?
Very much so.
>>67646496
They were pretty fuckin edgy
>VII.6.35 (Brothel of Venus; on the Vico dei Soprastanti opposite the Vicolo del Gallo); 1645: May Love burn in some lonely mountains whoever wants to rape my girl friend!
>VI.14.20 (House of Orpheus); 4523: I have buggered men
>VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1824: Let everyone one in love come and see. I want to break Venus’ ribs with clubs and cripple the goddess’ loins. If she can strike through my soft chest, then why can’t I smash her head with a club?
>>67646298
How can Roman men even compete with the Big Barbarian Cock?
>>67644544
>How did a city state founded by a brothers murder become a world power at the time?
by having luck that their opponents has crisis wich made them look stronger and more threatening
>Was life as a Roman greater than modern standards?
It depends on who's life you want to look at. The higher ups (patricians) were definitely living at the high standard, but also some plebs(Nobiles- part of roman nobility) todays middle class could get very rich and powerfull
>Why did hey stop at the Rhein?
because they got BTFO by germans at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest
>Why did they have Jesus killed?
he was a threat to the current religious system they had in place
>How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
immigration and the will of rulers
>Were discipline, honour to ancestors, and respect for the God[s] really as important to Romans as we make them out to be?
discipline yes, honour it depends, respect for Gods was big at the beggining, but the rulers used Gods to scare people to give them taxes, later when they switched to monoteistic version, it was high again.
>How did such great military might fall to barbarians?
at the end they had trouble, because they had so many german soldiers in the army. The soldiers were promised land (which was shit), Romans also had other problems that the end was coming and nothing could have saved them.
>Was Rome degenerate like Babylon?
No
>And most importantly: were Romans white?
At the start yes, but the expansions brought in some outsiders (Syria, Africa,...)
>>67646799
> I want to break Venus’ ribs with clubs and cripple the goddess’ loins. If she can strike through my soft chest, then why can’t I smash her head with a club?
>>67644974
>The German tribes defeated them.
Yes, once or twice but thats not the real reason why they stopped. Rhein is a large nature made barricade against barbarian east. Celts lived in large communities while most germans were stuck in the hunter gatherer life style. Romans knew there were litrally nothing but woods beyond the Rhein...no point in taking that.
>Define degenerate, Babylon was not really degenerate by the contemporary standards. It was just conquered by a superior force.
Known to be degenerate only because they slaved the j00s and they blackpainted them in the texts.
what was the religion of the romans before christianity?
>>67647591
Graeco-Roman paganism.
Every now and then a god from a different religion was absorbed into the Pantheon too
>>67647384
>>How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
>>immigration and the will of rulers
So, Europe is pretty much fucked. Enjoy the Sharia
>>67647591
The official religion was the Hellenic religion, not sure what the Roman term for it was or if they even had one. It is the classic Greeko-Roman pantheon basically. However because of the spread of the empire there were plenty of other religions in Rome and many non-Roman religions spread into Roman society. Eg. Mithrasism. The Roman pantheon also evolved with time with some Gods becoming more or less important and sometimes a Roman God would get combined with a non-Roman God or a non-Roman God would get absorbed into the pantheon.
>>67647707
Don't forget the deified emperors
>>67647591
>>67647707
>what was the religion of the romans before christianity?
http://polatkaya.net/pantheon_yurt.htm
http://polatkaya.net/Eternal_City.html
Some kind of turanist sky god cult.
>>67644544
>How did a city state founded by a brothers murder become a world power at the time?
Literally a meme
>Was life as a Roman greater than modern standards?
Modern degeneracy aside, their has never been a better time to live, in regards to living standards, than today in the Western world.
>Why did hey stop at the Rhine?
Got fucked up at in the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. Realized that conquering past the Rhine would only leave them overextended, so they gave up.
>Why did they have Jesus killed?
>Thinks that anybody knew the importance of Jesus
Jesus was literally just some guy that was punished for treason in a rebellious province.
>How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
Became a fad in the East, then it spread through appeal to the masses because everyone's shit was fucked toward the fall of the Western Roman Empire
Rome tried to punish their treasonous shit, but everyone just thought they were assholes.
>Were discipline, honour to ancestors, and respect for the God[s] really as important to Romans as we make them out to be?
Early on in the republic, yes. In the Imperial period, just a lot of lip service (mostly)
>How did such great military might fall to barbarians?
What are you talking about anon, Rome fell to the Turks in 1453.
>Was Rome degenerate like Babylon
Let Sarcuck of Akkad explain how degenerate Rome was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-0u2cmo2uU
>And most importantly: were Romans white?
Most of them.
>>67644544
>How did a city state founded by a brothers murder become a world power at the time?
Fertile land, people moved in, adopted other tribes' technology, muh republic, more and more people, MLG pro army, profit.
>Was life as a Roman greater than modern standards?
If you like ebin bathhouses, maybe. But there were more diseases and stuff like that.
>Why did hey stop at the Rhein?
They did push past it, but they got defeated by Germans, so they pulled out.
>Why did they have Jesus killed?
They believed the emperor was a god (the first ones actually did have Aphrodite's blood, thanks to Caesar, as popular belief suggests) and so a monoteistic religion was a threat.
>How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
Constantinus converted and made it equal. What led up to this is unknown, Big C claimed to have had a revelation or something.
>Were discipline, honour to ancestors, and respect for the God[s] really as important to Romans as we make them out to be?
Discipline certainly yes (just peep that army), honour to ancestors too and gods were always an influence on their worshippers.
>How did such great military might fall to barbarians?
It got attacked by multiple strong armies, but even then they were strong as fuck (Aetius vs. Attila and so on). They never improved after about 117 A.D. when they were at their best, while barbarians learned how to use heavy cavalry to break legionary ranks and so on.
>Was Rome degenerate like Babylon?
Back during Republic times, no. There were based politicians keeping the order, even some that resemble nowadays' conservatives, liberals, capitalists and socialists. But after emperors gained all the power, it began to fall.
>And most importantly: were Romans white?
Of course. True, they did mix with Etruscians or however the hell that is written, but you can see on their statues that they had white features. Even nowadays' Italians are white (darker skin from sun exposure), and they are more mixed than Romans were.
>>67644544
>How did a city state founded by a brothers murder become a world power at the time?
It was a long process, but their advantages are pretty easy to summarize. From the early republic to the principate the Romans succeeded because of natural and organizational advantages. When they revolted form the Etruscan kingdom, they were the most populous city in the region of Latium (actually it was a collection of several towns near each other, but grew into one contiguous city over time.) They had a substantial number of prosperous farmers, as opposed to subsistence farmers who don't have the means or time to equip family members for war. They also showed from their initial revolt on a willingness to ask smaller city-states to be junior partners in alliances (this isn't remarkable) and, as they grew stronger from said alliances, incorporate the influential citizens of those city-states into the machinery of Roman government (this is very remarkable.) This combination of outnumbering their rivals, having a large portion of that population hold enough land and farm efficiently and productively enough to supply well equipped soldiers, and a willingness to allow their allies' most prominent few citizens to share in Rome's political power (especially this third factor) distinguished the Romans from their rivals every step of the way. It is difficult to overstate how often the Romans depended on the "we have reinforcements" strategy in warfare. Their enemies were bled dry. No other empire before them was willing to keep the aristocracy of conquered people intact and allow them to participate in and potentially hold office in the central government. This made being part of their empire palatable.
>>67644544
The living standards are an interesting point. One could say that even the poorest W. Europeans don't die of pneumonia or basic sepsis anymore, but a rich(er) Roman would most definitely have more luxury than a middle classer today. It's hard to compare, as the Romans hadn't a real middle class like we have nowadays.
>>67644544
>Why did they stop at the Rhein?
It wasn't because of a lack of trying. They did conquer and pacify Germany up to the Elbe river (and planned to make a permanent border at the Vistula river) and Varus was made governor of the province of Magna Germania. They lost their gains quickly. The idea of conquering Germany was to shorten their border and incorporate the many skilled German warrior into their army. As you probably know, three legions were annihilated and the Romans responded by kicking some asses and withdrawing from the province. Why did they permanently withdraw? There was a massive revolt in Illyria immediately before the Romans initiated their march across the Elbe and half of the entire Roman army spent the next four years fighting in the Balkans. The same year the revolt ended, the disaster at Teutoburg Forest occurred. Augustus calculated that the Roman empire had expanded as far as it could. Their lines of communication and supply either could not reach into Germania or it wasn't worth the trouble. Remember, the point of an empire is to protect the ruling state from invasion and to funnel wealth to the ruling state. The Romans might have had unexpected trouble efficiently extracting taxation from Germany or moving troops around it in a timely manner. Or maybe Augustus thought that there was a maximum area one man could reasonably control and the empire had reached that limit, meaning they couldn't expand in Germany or even in other areas with easier lines of supply and communication. He warned his successors in his will not to expand the borders of the empire and apparently they mostly saw the wisdom in that.
>>67645446
romanians are an extinct rac edude
>>67645619
point inrralvent skin still white
>Why did they have Jesus killed?
It was recommended to the governor of Judea by the local aristocracy. Judea was a tinder box at time and killing shit stirrers was in Rome's interest. Even if it wasn't a tinder box, they probably still would have killed him because he wasn't a Roman citizen and he pissed off the wrong people.
>How did Christianity become the dominant religion?
Historians DO NOT have a consensus answer to this question. You will have to read various opinions and make up your own mind.
>Were discipline, honour to ancestors, and respect for the God[s] really as important to Romans as we make them out to be?
They had an emotional appeal to Romans. They were an important part of their culture and they were certainly important to the Romans. However, those are universal values. All of their neighbors felt the same way about those virtues. The Romans aren't unique in that regard.
>How did such great military might fall to barbarians?
Short answer: tax evasion. Long answer: tax evasion for a long time. Remember, the Roman empire was getting pummeled by invasions constantly since the Marcomanni war in 169AD. It took until 476AD, give or take a few years, for the western half of the empire to be dissolved. It is worth noting that the eastern half survived another thousand years.
>Was Rome degenerate like Babylon?
Shut up.
>And most importantly: were Romans white?
Shut up.
>>67644974
>average lifespan was 21 years
most retarded thing i've read on /pol/ and i've been here since /new/
>>67646298
>easily
not really, the late Roman army was still pretty strong, organized and disciplined, but it literally imploded from the inside due to all the infighting happening because of the failed economy of Rome
press F to pay respect to based Majorian on that matter
>>67644544
we wuz ceasars
>>67649758
>>67650962
>>67651839
history major? classics major?
>>67652160
>The successor of Avitus presents the welcome discovery of a great and heroic character, such as sometimes arise, in a degenerate age, to vindicate the honour of the human species.
Had he ruled in the golden age of Rome, Majoran would've been considered one of the greatest emperors. To do what he did with so little is astonishing, and I'll forever detest Ricimer for killing him and thus extinguishing the light of civilization in the west for hundreds of years.
>>67644544
>Was life as a Roman greater than modern standards?
I missed this question. Here's a quote on life expectancy from wikipedia.
>Demographically, the Roman Empire was an ordinary premodern state. It had high infant mortality, a low marriage age, and high fertility within marriage. Perhaps half of Roman subjects died by the age of 5. Of those still alive at age 10, half would die by the age of 50. Roman women could expect to bear on average 6 to 9 children.
>At its peak, after the Antonine Plague of the 160s CE, it had a population of about 60 million and a population density of about 16 persons per square kilometer. In contrast to the European societies of the classical and medieval periods, Rome had unusually high urbanization rates. During the 2nd century CE, the city of Rome had more than one million inhabitants. No Western city would have as many again until the 19th century.
The population of the empire was mostly rural. About 8-10% of its citizens lived in cities. Most farmers had to work long and hard to get a successful harvest. Few farmers would have owned enough land and slaves to be what we might refer to as Roman middle class. Few citizens of cities would have been wealthy enough to be what we would refer to as Roman middle class. The ruling class was a tight knit group of about 10,000 to 30,000 people, depending on the time. Your chances of being anything other than a filthy, miserable peasant are not good. If you were part of the middle or upper class, though, your standard of living would probably be acceptable to a modern person, if a little boring at first due to the lack of instant gratification entertainment technologies.
>>67652511
Not a history major, but own a small library of history textbooks and scholarly literature. I'm just an informed layman.
>>67647591
people always focus on the pantheon but it was more or less identical to Shinto in practice- ancestor veneration and the worship of nature/house gods. Certain gods were universally known/revered because they had large cults or were considered ancestors of Roman rulers (such as Jupiter) but theoretically there would have been an infinite number of gods, because most of them were local/personal
>>67652840
good responses m8
>>67644544
>Brothers
Meme
>World Power
Really propelled by the end of the whole Punic Wars. Carthage was the only empire (one could argue Egypt) that presented itself as a serious hindrance to total, Roman, Meditteranean dominance. Once they beat the only super power, the Mediterranean was there basically.
>Life as a Roman greater?
Well school was a 50/50 mix between wrestling and philosophy, so boys could actually be made into men. Their math system was shit, so I am amazed they were able to make such great architecture.
>Rhein
See >>67650962
>Jesus killed
Jesus was just another Jewish rebel to the Roman provincial governor. I don't know if Pilate actually existed then, or was nicer to Jesus than the Jews. Probably was nicer, but still ordered his execution.
>Dominant religion
Christianity was very subversive. Romans either changed faith to spite the falling Empire, or as a sign that the gods were losing control, or because Christianity enticed people with a promise of an eternally blissful afterlife. And no need to pay for sacrifices.
>Were discipline, honor, and respect that important?
The Romans as a whole unit were not intelligent or deeply religious. Religion was a state affair, and you would have to attend sacrifices and ceremonies. As for discipline and honor to ancestors, both were important to Roman society. Especially at a funeral - Lineage was key to social status (like Augustus tracing his history to Aeneas, which is why the Prima Porta Augusts statue you have has Cupid at his feat)
>How could Rome possibly fall
No empire lasts forever, also remember that the Empire split to Eastern and Western, with the West part being shitier. I would say the centuries of internal peace led to complacency and decadence, juxtaposed with poor fiscal management and little finese in handling economic downturns. Rome became too old to be too big, we saw the same thing happen to the Ottomans.
>Degenerate
Question probably doesn't need to be asked.
>White?
Turks
