Here's my dilemma:
I am currently a Catholic. I will be the first to admit that Orthodoxy is absolutely based, especially as Russia appears to move toward theocracy.
The problem is that I cannot convert. Regardless of how "cool" Orthodoxy is, the fact of the matter is that by the tenets of their mutual theology this is not a legitimate reason for me to convert.
Whether Catholicism is overrun by liberal shits is irrelevant. What matters is whether the Roman Church is the Church Christ created or not. No one ever promised the Church would be perfect or that its leaders would be exemplary. What matters is that it is infallible on faith and morals and is the most correct place to receive the sacraments and teaching via apostolic succession.
So are there any Orthodox-fags out there who can change my mind on this point? Because the question of papal authority seems firmly answered in documents like 1Clement.
Why would you leave Catholicism?
Just because we have an Antipope ...
We had Antipopes before.
Get comfy with Catholic tradition.
>>66620976
This.
This time will pass, and the next pope, will be either amazing or terrible. Either way something is coming.
Prepare for the storm brother.
>>66620976
Well that's what I mean. I don't think I would. I really wish I could because I like the political climate of Orthodoxy. However, the facts seem to be clear: Catholicism is the one true Church.
I was just curious if there were any remotely reasonable rebuttals to this.
milo is a faggot a jew and a piss poor """journalist""". also don't take advice from 4chan.
>>66621070
What about Orthodoxy makes you believe that Catholicism is the true church?
We must remember the words of Pius XI
"for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it"
just leave
Obviously you're weak in faith
You'll leave orthodoxy too
Probably end up as a Muslim lmao
>>66620835
Look up roman orthodox church
There is something really yummy about Milo. Initially I didn't find him sexy at all but know when I see him I start to get a chub. I'd honestly let him fuck my boipussy raw.,
Strike "Filioque" from your copy of the Nicene Creed. Walk outside and rally folk to retake Constantinople and to restore the Pentarchie afterwards.
Congratulations you are now Orthodox.
Best wishes: A filthy Protestant.
>>66621123
I think Catholicism is the true Church because of the history revealed through secular research, Church documents, revelation, and theology. The split between the East and the West clearly makes one or the other correct, and that entire question turns on the issue of papal authority.
It seems pretty obvious that papal authority is part of the teaching guided by the Holy Spirit, and therefore Catholicism is the true Church.
>>66621242
I don't think recognizing the positive features of the incomplete sister Church is weakness, especially since my decision to remain Catholic is founded specifically on faith and a correct understanding of the true question underlying which faith to be committed to.
>>66620835
wether you like star wars or star trek its OK, tomayto tomahto
>>66621062
I feel sorry for you. You're just going to have libtard pope after libtard pope. Each one more willing to pander to degeneracy.
At least if you were Evangelical this would be a sign of the end times and an imminent rapture, but the only thing you guys have to look forward to is more of this shit.
>>66621667
Seems like you're not getting it. Whether the pope is a lib or not is irrelevant. It only matters whether it's the true Church or not.
>>66621658
I think to some extent that could be considered true, but for Catholics and Orthodox, you have to seriously discern which Church you believe is the true one. I don't personally think you'd go to hell for being wrong, but choosing one because you think it's cooler or whatever when you know in your heart the other one is the true Church would be a path to Hell IMO
>>66621667
I think you should study about Antipope Francis, Antipope Benedict and the evidence that shows they are not Popes.
>>66621667
It is very sad, I agree. I'm a sedevacantist though, we don't acknowledge the current Pope as the real one, and if there comes another we will say the same.
We adhere to traditional Pre-V2 traditions. All Latin masses.
>>66621848
I have the same issue but I ruled out the catholic church due to all the corruption in it's past. The "correct" church would be guided by the holy spirit which the catholic church seems to lack going back and forth on issues
>>66621848
No I meant that whatever you choose is immaterial since it's all fiction.
>>66620835
There is no fucking difference between orthody and catholic. They are beliving in the same stuff, they also have some kind of "pope". Only the calendar differs about 10 to 15 days.
>>66621952
That's certainly your prerogative but I disagree because that's simply called the Donatist heresy, which was in effect and accepted by all Christians at the time of the Reformation. This is why I can't accept the possibility that Protestant denominations are correct.
>>66621986
Pic related
>>66622004
This isn't a theologically rigorous post.
>>66620835
From what part of the world does Christianity come from? Middle east/South of Europe/Byzantine empire
Where is Jerusalem and Egypt located?
What came first?
Well Orthodoxy came first.
In the year 1054 or in the 11 centuary "great schism" happened where catholic christianity was created.
Then few hundred year laters another christianity version was created around 15-16 centuary aka Protestants.
Orthodox is the unchanged church.
Catholic is satanic anti-christ, even tough most follower are regular honest people. You could buy Gods forgiveness from murder, rape, whatever etc.
Protestants thought all this was horrible and toned everything down. No Icons in church at all, no gold, nothing.
And each time the bible got thinner and more parts where removed.
My friend you are seeking for the truth and I must say it is Orthodox.
Even tough God knows in your heart you are searching him, regardless of what we stupid humans categorise it in, and thats what matters.
At least you're not Protestant.
Look up the Donation of Constantine.
-t. orthodox
>>66620835
And one should worship God and not have any other idols. Idols and being famous is wrong.
Why is it about the Pope? It should be about Jesus Christ and Mother of God, not about a corrupt Human elected leader. This part of Catholics I will never understand.
>>66622149
if they are too liberal for you, you should convert to islam maybe. It's kinda the same thing like christianity was like five hundred years ago.
I don't get your point anyway. What do you want ? Why would you like to convert ? Because Orhtodoxy is "cool" ?
>>66620835
If you are stupid - go ortodoxy. Ortodox are so fucking retarded.
>>66622149
Well don't leave us in suspense....which side fits your post-modernist interpretation better? I think if you're a hipster choose Orthodoxy, but if you're conservative stick with Catholocism
>>66622097
Sorry I don't understand. Can you reformulate this
>>66622426
Okay, friend.
>>66622004
Yeah. Not true though.
>>66620835
Reiligiously speaking there arent that many differences except the purgie and the whole representation of saints and yada but yeah go with russia my communist brother
>>66622526
This is more proof that Vatican II is wicked and evil.
>>66621491
Orthodox is the unchanged church, since the time of the Apostels.
Around year 1100 Catholicism was created.
Around year 1500 Protestantism was created.
Orthodox is the Apostels teachings, the unchanged Church.
Catholicism wanted more power etc, it was created much later. And you could buy Gods forgiveness from rape, murder, theft, wtf???
Anti-christ. Idolising the Pope and not Jesus and Mother of God? I will never understand this, idolisation is against the 10 commendments.
Protestants was against and protested against buying Gods forgiveness with money, and toned EVERYTHING which is holy down, thats why Protestant church looks like regular houses in Europe at least.
>>66622538
It's basicly the same thing. I am together with an Orthodox girl for 3 years now. I have been to orthodox weddings, baptism, a lot of orthodox festivities.
>>66620835
why are poltards so cringeworthy? why do poltards think russia is a good example of anything? why do poltards worship a pandering edgy faggot who does it for the money?
I'm orthodox because my parents, grandparents, grandgrandparents, and all the previous generations were.
I think that anyone should either stick to the religion of their parents or be an agnostic.
>>66622778
I think that's a really stupid idea
>>66622691
>he's_right_you_know.jpg
>>66622816
Why?
I'am Orthodox Christian of the Russian Orthodox Church.
I had the same doubt. But when I got into an Orthodox Church the first time, the deacon received me, explained the doctrine and etc. And made me an invite to the vigil.
And was beautiful. Not the choir because isn't too much people in the church, just 4. The holy vigil, liturgy and etc. In an Orthodox church is a great pray. They don't stop to take money or to explain "now this will happen", like in vatican 2, they are there to pray and to say: "Jesus Christ, son of God have mercy upon me!"
Is a beautiful meeting. I do believe that is the true church, the true body of Christ. I recommend u to go there.
Sorry about my english and God save u.
>>66622515
Yes, my post was in response to you saying that the Catholic Church's corruption made it unlikely to be the true Church. There are a couple of reasons I don't believe this is the case. First, ministers of the Church even up through the Pope are humans with free will and are allowed to sin gravely. Second, the Church is only infallible on matters of faith and morals declared within the context of the Magisterium.
The third reason is that the question of whether a corrupt Church is still the valid/true Church was settled early in Christian history. It is known as the Donatist heresy. I'll copy/paste as much as I can about it (and it may spill over into another post).
>Donatism was the error taught by Donatus, bishop of Casae Nigrae, that the effectiveness of the sacraments depends on the moral character of the minister. In other words, if a minister who was involved in a serious enough sin were to baptize a person, that baptism would be considered invalid.
>>66622988
Donatism developed as a result of the persecution of Christians ordered by Diocletian in 303 in which all churches and sacred Scriptures of the Christians were to be destroyed. In 304 another edict was issued ordering the burning of incense to the idol gods of the Roman empire. Of course, Christians refused, but it did not curtail the increased persecution. Many Christians gave up the sacred texts to the persecutors and even betrayed other Christians to the Romans. These people became known as "traditors," Christians who betrayed other Christians. (Note: traditor, not traitor).
At the consecration of bishop Caecilian of Carthage in 311, one of the three bishops, Felix, bishop of Aptunga, who consecrated Caecilian, had given copies of the Bible to the Roman persecutors. A group of about 70 bishops formed a synod and declared the consecration of the bishop to be invalid. Great debate arose concerning the validity of the sacraments (baptism, the Lord's Supper, etc.,) by one who had sinned so greatly against other Christians.
Ater the death of Caecilian, Aelius Donatus the Great became bishop of Carthage, and it is from his name that the movement is called. The Donatists were gaining "converts" to their cause, and a division was arising in the Catholic church. They began to practice rebaptism which was particularly troublesome to the church at the time and was condemned at the Synod of Arles in 314 since it basically said the authority in the Catholic church was lost.
>>66622916
Well either there is a true religion or there is not. If there's not in your opinion why bother? For the cultural/moral aspect? Then again one religion must be better suited than the other
>>66623024
The Donatist issue was raised at several ecumenical councils and finally submitted to Emperor Constantine in 316. In each case the consecration of bishop Caecilian was upheld. However, persecution fuels emotions, and by 350 the Donatists had gained many converts and outnumbered the Orthodox in Africa. But it was the apologetic by Augustine that turned the tide against the Donatist movement which eventually died out in the next century.
The problem with Donatism is that no person is morally pure. The effectiveness of the baptism or administration of the Lord's supper does not cease to be effective if the moral character of the minister is in question or even demonstrated to be faulty. Rather, the sacraments are powerful because of what they are--visible representations of spiritual realities. God is the one who works in and through them, and He is not restricted by the moral state of the administrant.
This is a Catholic and Protestant painting of the Last Supper.
Orthodox paintings have them surrounded evenly around a round table.
Your Catholic faith = utterly BTFO
>>66622587
"""""""""""""Catholic Church"""""""""""""""""""
Join an oriental Orthodox church like the Assyrian church of the East. They are far superior than traditional Orthodox and do mass in Aramaic; the language Jesus spoke.
>>66621062
How about you return to the real Church and accept Kiril as your Pope.
>>66623024
>>66623052
Thanks that helps clearing it a bit up.
>even up through the Pope are humans with free will and are allowed to sin gravely
>Second, the Church is only infallible on matters of faith and morals
So by which reason you prefer Caths over Orths then? Didn't you say it all stands and falls with the pope?
What do you think about Popes flipping on issues? I remember there is one famous case orths always mock but I don't remember his name
>>66620835
>Whether Catholicism is overrun by liberal shits is irrelevant.
Yes it is relevant. It's called "keeping the Faith". If the organization is dominated by apostates, it no longer is the Church. Those who are true to the Faith are the Church.
>>66623042
3 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
(Matthew 25)
Well, the Lord says about charity not "true church".
Op, u will believe in one church sometime. But the church is a hospital, not a card to salvation.
Doesn't matter the choice remember that. God will save the just, the good and etc.
If u really believe that pravoslavie is the true church, go there, talk to the priest or even if you don't believe, go there and take this doubts to the priest.
The Pope is actually quite easy to disprove. Look at the churches that left before the Great Schism (Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East). Did they have popes? No, because a single Bishop with supreme authority was never the tradition.
>>66623042
Fucking Germans overthinking shit.
Its good to be loyal to the religion of parents so you and relatives can get together during holidays and have good time, also created a community with other people.
If you're really not interested in religious practices you can say ur an agnostic and be like"Oh man I dunno, don't really care wether there is God or not, whatever".
>>66620835
The HRCC is too big to cover with a blanket statement.
There are a number of different faction in The Church that go too deep for anyone outside to write about.
On the surface there are The Fundamentalists, who look a lot like orthodox and The Evangelists or "Brothers and Sisters of Charity" who are more progressive. But is goes way deeper than that.
Sedevacantists are a fundi faction who claim the current pope isn't valid and The Church has been heresy since VAII. Conclavists are a subset of Sedevacantists who hold the position that VAII turned The Church heretical and as such there is no pope.
The Church is its own political structure which is why people are rightfully afraid of catholics in office
>>66623495
Maybe you just don't belong in a religion thread if it's just a tradition thing for you
>>66623106
Look it up senpai, the archdiocese has her listed as a "Dancing Liturgy Coordinator"
>>66623293
Well, the popes are allowed to flip flop on issues and have their own opinions. For example, Francis can say what he wants about immigration, but that's not binding to Catholics nor does it indicate that Catholics are obliged to follow it. It's only Magisterial teaching that remains unchanged.
The central difference in Orthodoxy and Catholicism is who holds the highest office. Orthodoxy says that the patriarchs (including the pope btw) all have equal authority. They also believe that the Pope is "first among equals".
Catholics believe that the Pope holds the final say over the other patriarchs. One commonly cited reason to believe the Catholic perspective on this is the epistle 1 Clement, which shows a VERY early example in the Church (as in late first century) of the Pope settling a dispute between other Church leaders and exercising the type of authority Catholics believe the Pope has.
>>66623657
All patriarch are equal to every bishop.
Patriarch is just administrative position.
>Milo Yanupopolis in OP
thank you, thread easy to spot and hide
>>66623657
Didn't knew about 1 Clement will reread it. Knew all the rest but not really my point:
>It seems pretty obvious that papal authority is part of the teaching guided by the Holy Spirit, and therefore Catholicism is the true Church.
How can you say the Holy Spirit guides the church yet at the same time brace yourself for when the church fucks up? I believe the true church would be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and never be in danger of turning over to a loony lib version
>>66624515
To kind of fix my formulation on this: There's this part in Romans 12 about whenever you preach, the holy ghost speaks through you. If the pope was wrong on an issue this obviously means the holy ghost wasn't speaking through him at that moment. So if not even the pope as highest member of the church can claim this holy ghostish guidance how can it be the true church?
>>66620835
milo when are you getting a photo op with daddy?
>>66620835
Both are heresy, there is only 1 true Christianity and that is to be born again Christian, repent for your sins and stop sinning. Read the bible and follow Jesus Christ.
These are real Christians:
https://www.youtube.com/user/OpenAirOutreach
https://youtu.be/A3FCVB-Ju6c?t=564
Repent or perish.
>>66625424
These Christians reveal the hedonist's true nature.
Something the pope has forgotten.
I can't not be a Catholic with the current damage control Pope in the Vatican.
He wants to swamp the congregation with shit just because it makes the church look a little more tolerant and a lot less pederast.
>>66620835
Stay catholic unless you move to russia
No reason to switch churchs unless you move
