http://www.politicususa.com/2015/12/27/bernie-sanders-rips-mask-donald-trump-reveal-fraud-hates-working-people.html
Holy shit Bernie just made Trump look like the biggest faggot candidate out there
Gotta give him credit for on one
>>59407952
>But he does want to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to top three-tenths of one percent
>>59407952
How many of these shill threads are you gonna make?
Bernie is a fucking rat.
Take it from someone who lives in a socialist country: SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK
>>59408130
But democratic socialism does
That's the difference dummy
>>59407952
>the tax relief is going to hurt the middle class
The left really needs to stop this class warfare bullshit. Trump is also giving massive tax cuts to the poor and middle class, not to mention all the jobs that are going to come back from overseas.
Sanders has this broken idea that the only way to help someone is to hurt someone else. You need to hurt the upper class to help the middle class. But then again that's a socialist for you.
Take the idea that "there isn't enough wealth for the poor." Sanders says double the minimum wage and create huge unemployment everywhere. Trump says give them a tax cut so they are helped financially and the burden isn't put on employs. This results in no rise of unemployment or job insecurity
Bernie is nothing but a naive old fool, the messiah for the beta, cuckold, autistic, cuddled millenials who made shit life decisions and want to world to take care of them
Fuck off faggot
>>59408253
>democratic socialism
..:That's what we are, numbnuts.
National socialism has a chance of working.
>>59408253
BUT THIS TIME OUR SOCIALISM IS GOING TO WORK
THIS TYPE HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED BEFORE
PLEASE LET US USE YOUR COUNTRY AS A TESTING GROUND, I PROMISE IT WONT GO HORRIBLY WRONG FOR THE HUNDRETH FUCKINGG TIME
>>59408339
National socialism is retarded
>>59408491
>National socialism is retarded
If you want Socialism, then National socialism is the only way to make it feasible.
Democratic socialism, like ours, doesn't work. Sure you can pretend it works for awhile, but the economy has been steadily going to the shitter since forever, even when Finnish people have been horribly abused to make this marxist dream a reality.
Finland has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, and I attribute it to directly to democratic socialism.
>bernie sanders continuing to think the "middle class" earns or needs a hike in the minimum wage
>muh racism
Just commit suicide already you fucking nutcase.
>>59408319
fuck you im an asperger and i dont want to be associated with these cucks
/Pol/ really needs to realize that the rich do things for themselves. Trump got tired of the government working against his interests so he decided to run for office himself. He has no interest in the working class. He has no interest in making the nation a better place for everyone. He wants tax breaks for himself and his buddies.
The average american needs to stop voting for people like trump with the false idea of "I'll be rich one day too". I'm honestly starting to believe it's stockholm syndrome at this point. These people don't care about you. They'll do whatever they can to gain more wealth and more power. /Pol/ has this view that it's the jews that run the show, but it's clearly the very rich. They buy politicians, they rig elections, they control the media, they call the shots. When you realize you have to fight against them to make america great again, that's when things will actually get better. You're the equivalent of an american fighting for the british if you vote for Trump. Yes his policies and speeches sound nice, but his real motives (as with any candidate) are not what he says.
>>59408400
You're right elect Trump instead.
This time our capitalism is going to work.
This type has never been tried before.
Please let us use your country as a testing ground, I promise it won't go horribly wrong for the hundredth fucking time.
>>59407952
TRUMP
R
U
M
P
>>59407952
But did Bernie ever save a Georgian farm?
>>59408793
There are no poor people in America.
Only temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
>>59408678
Socialism in National Socialism was not Marx's Socialism, it was meant to be tribalism.
>>59408821
Haha fuck off millenial
"Oy Vey capitalism is evil!"
How's high school going for you?
>>59408821
>>This time our capitalism is going to work.
>Capitalism doesn't work
>USA is the leading country in the world
You fucking WHAT?
>>59408905
Haha fuck off boomer
"Oy Vey socialism is evil!"
How's the retirement home going for you?
>>59408896
Marx's socialism is flawed on principle.
Marx's socialism will never work.
But if you want some form of Socialism, then National socialism is the way to go.
>>59408821
that's a poopy comparison because capitalism has worked in the us for many years
>>59407952
Ah, Bernie is getting desperate I see.
Also, may want to check your grammar and spelling next time, OP.
>>59408793
>The average american needs to stop voting for people like trump with the false idea of "I'll be rich one day too"
>I'll never be rich so fuck you gimme da loot so we're both "equal"
Bernie voters everyone
>>59407952
>Bernie
>Making trump look like a faggot candidate
>Bernie is literally a faggot candidate
>#FellTheHernie
>>59409006
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm NatSoc. I was just pointing out so the other guys know that National Socialism does not follow Marx's Socialism, we follow Tribalism.
>>59408909
It's so successful, we have more people in poverty than you have people.
We actually have more people in poverty than 160 countries have people.
>>59407952
The media has created a shield against criticism for Trump. They spent all their time trying to call him a racist, sexist, fascist, bigot, none of which panned out, that you literally cannot change a Trump voter's mind with sources from the media. To a Trump voter ANYTHING the media says negatively about Trump is immediately dismissed now as yet more media lies.
The media has become the boy who cried Hitler.
>>59408981
>>59408821
>LOL I'M JUST GONNA TURN THE TABLES ON THEM
reddit tactic desu
>>59408821
>This time our capitalism is going to work.
Oh no the fact that the US has the highest GDP has NOTHING to do with capitalism or the free market.
>>59409024
Worked for Trump you mean.
>>59407952
trump said it 100 times he wanted to reduce taxes for the rich and the middle class and doesnt want to raise min wage
loving working class =/= raising min wage
this article literally says nothing new btw trump has been saying it all the time
>>59408821
>>59409143
well yeah because we have more people you fucking cuck
>>59409187
>I'm just gonna call him Jewish and tell him to go to Reddit lol
Child tactic desu
>>59409188
Yep, and 90% of it goes to the top .1%. Average wages have barely nudged since the 70s. If you call being just as poor as your parents a success, then I have a bridge to sell you.
(Though, your country is the only one in the world with a higher level of inequality, so maybe you're used to taking it up the ass)
>>59409028
I never implied this whatsoever. I never said to take someone else's wealth. You really don't understand how power works. The rich already control the wealth. They've been paying politicians to vote their way against the interest of the american people. That's not enough so they actually want to get in office and run the show themselves.
>Someone 'calls out' Trump
>LEL TRUMP HAS BEENS STUMPED TRUMPFAGS BTFO
Every time
>>59409143
Finland has like 5 million people. We have 320 million. We're the third most populous nation on the Earth. Use your brain.
>>59409256
So you're saying people in poverty is a fundamental aspect of capitalism that cannot be fixed? The more people, the more people in poverty and nothing can be done?
>>59409143
>poverty
You mean people on welfare living in secion 8 housing with free healthcare and obamaphones? How impoverished they truly are...
>>59409377
see
>>59409380
>>59409406
How capitalist of us.
>>59409324
.1%
Shit is the top 1% not good enough for you?
>Average wages have barely nudged since the 70s.
And most of them would fall under socialism as most private industry sectors would require funding from the government i.e Taxes up the ass.
Kek. White liberals hate the working class more than anyone. I don't know who they think they're unmasking
>>59407952
No I don't, and no he didn't.
>>59409143
US poverty rate is something like 15%
Finlands poverty rate is something like 20%
US poverty-line is ~$23,283/yr
Finlands poverty line is ~$15,409/yr
Can you figure out the implications on your own?
>>59409380
Poor people are fundamental to a unfair nature that can not produce a perfectly fair government.
>video opens with Sandra 'if only I was white' Bland statement
Bernie Sandra killed herself 3 days after being in jail because she was high and meant to be some sort of court secretary and no one she knew would bother giving her 500 bux.
>Bernie speculates on why the middle class is angry
lel. I wonder -why- they're working longer hours, Bernie. Maybe it has to do with the fact that if they don't they can just get fired and be replaced by and illegal.
>>59409380
People in poverty is a fundamental aspect of humanity that cannot be fixed.
But when capitalism gives even the poor people luxuries like microwave ovens, cable TV, Smart Phones, central heating and AC, and clean running water, I think we can safely assume that capitalism has been the best system to alleviate the suffering of the poor.
And yes, those are all luxury items, if you think they are necessities, that just further proves that capitalism has made your standard of living go way up at a very cheap price.
Trump wants young white men to go to war and die for Israel
Bernie wants young white men to get an education and be a productive member of society
>>59409324
>9000% GOES TO DUH TOP .0001% OF DAH RICH
Leftists always pull these numbers out of their ass and its more ridiculous each time
>>59409380
Poverty is fucking everywhere you dumb nigger. It's in China, it's in India, it's in Russia. It's in Finland, and it was in the Soviet Union. Poverty has always been around you daft nigger. Implying it's a product of capitalism is just retarded.
>>59408253
Sweden is a failed state so no, it doesen't
>>59409380
China is a socialist market and they still have a huge problem with poverty. Even larger than the US even when accounting for population differences.
>>59407952
How much do you get paid to keep making these threads or do you do it for free?
>>59409709
>Trump
>Owns large buildings around the globe
>wants war
Yeah, okay.
>>59409709
So they can pay for shit skins to hold back their culture
>>59407952
Holy shit so much Trump stumping in one day. Is Trump the new Jeb?
>>59409709
>Projecting this hard
>>59409447
100 million americans out of work, and somehow more socialist programs like the one I listed will fix this mess.
>>59408793
Maybe you should just quit being such a sandy vagina about people being richer than you and be glad you live in a white western country. It will make you look so much more mature
>>59408793
>Hey you guys, vote for people entirely controlled by corporate interests and donations
>Do not vote for the guy not controlled by external money, he is controlled by his own self interest
Fuck off
>>59409380
1. Poverty is world wide regardless of system
2. Those below the poverty line in the US are still more wealthy than those in poverty anywhere else
3. You're a faggot
Frankly the lower class in America (ie, EVERYONE who is employed by someone else (upper class is investor NEETs, middle class is business owners who still work every day, lower class is employees making either wage or salary or commission)), the lower class doesn't WANT handouts or socialism. They want better jobs. Which is what Trump is promising them.
Even university SJWs don't want to live on the dole their whole lives. Sure they want free university, but that's because they've come to realize that a university degree is financially worthless. It doesn't get you a good job, so why should it cost so much? They somewhat logically conclude that if it's worthless, they shouldn't have to pay for it, so they want it for free.
But you know, they'd be happy to take out loans if they had a good shot at a good job when they got out, like their parents had. They don't want the dole, they want fairness, the fairness that comes from a good job. The good jobs we don't have anymore because of offshoring and immigration, primarily. We could have these things again if we closed the borders and stopped immigration, both actions that would primarily hurt global elites and foreigners, not the lower class that would benefit from rising wages and lower unemployment.
>>59409327
>I never implied this whatsoever. I never said to take someone else's wealth. You really don't understand how power works. The rich already control the wealth. They've been paying politicians to vote their way against the interest of the american people. That's not enough so they actually want to get in office and run the show themselves.
Just stop. We all know full well that's all you commie fucks want. You think you should be in charge of how people live their lives because you're magically smarter than everyone else. Then when none of your ideas work you throw a bitchfit and start killing "saboteurs". Even at the height of the American "monopolies" US Steel was dismantled by the government.
You don't even fucking know what wealth is. Either read Basic Economics or fuck off.
>>59407952
Bernie gets kucked, humiliated, and beaten by 2 of his own feminazi niggers.
The only credit i give him is for being weak and stupid.
>>59409709
>Trump wants young white men to go to war and die for Israel
Where has he said he wanted a war?
>>59409562
>>59409636
>>59409719
>>59409728
If nothing we do changes poverty, why do countries that do different things have different levels of poverty?
Why over time has the distribution of income growth in the U.S. changed? Why do people today earn less of their productivity than they did in the past?
(And by the way, any change you suggest will be just some version of "MY VERSION OF CAPITALISM HASN'T BEEN TRIED!")
>>59408793
/thread
It's too late though, this all started with /pol/ making memes and now /pol/ is going full retard with their Trump shit.
>>59409787
Name one stumping m8
you foreigners and liberals have ruined BTFO and idea so stumping since you have cried wolf so many times you will never recover. I remember when being btfo required actually doing something.
>>59410048
>Why over time has the distribution of income growth in the U.S. changed?
Inflation. Thank the central bank for that.
>Why do people today earn less of their productivity than they did in the past?
See above.
And yet our poor are richer than anyone else's poor. Thanks to capitalism.
>>59407952
Besides his obvious beta weakness publicly, i also give him credit for his kuck fantasies he has wishing others rape his own wife.
He is a kuck in thought, action, dreams, and thats what he wants to do to America to. Kuck it to niggers, college dumb liberals, and to Alpha dictators, and terrorist.
He was a kuckoning of America. He is a kuck at heart.
>pic related
>feel the bern
>feel the kuck
No wonder he wants to free all niggers and absolved them of their nigger crime.
He wants niggers to be raping every one, including his plump dumb wife.
>>59410048
And yet people are still better off under capitalism than anywhere else in the world even those under extreme poverty
See chile
>>59410048
Because of your stupid social programs that do jack shit.
Money sunk is money sunk.
>>59410109
>It's too late though, this all started with /pol/ making memes
MEME MAGIC IS REAL
>GOOD LUCK ASSAD
>LET IT SNOW
>IT'S HAPPENING
>CAN'T CORNER THE DORNER
>EBOLA-CHAN
>>59409957
I never stated what my political beliefs were or which party I side with. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth and implying a lot of things.
>let be bring up economics 101
The rich are seeing all the benefits and no one else is. Pure capitlism is a race to the bottom. Pay the least, control the most. Great economics much growth very prosperity for the nation
>>59410138
and the idea of stumping*
in this last year liberals and and you beta foreigners have single handedly ruined the concept of BTFO out of your pathetic desperation to attack trump lol Literally seeing BTFO /POL/ TRUMP STUMPED ever day every minute of simple things like a person interrupting another person or a tweet that is so insignificant he would literally not respond to it personally. I hope you all realize how desperate you have all exposed yourself to be and how much of a outsider you have made your people to this board.
>>59410172
>Inflation.
That doesn't even make any sense and you know it. What is the mechanism for inflation causing wages to not go up ONLY for poor people? Especially considering inflation is at an all time low. Double especially because the largest driver of inflation is wages.
Do you even know what inflation is?
>>59409787
Nice try. Worry about your own UK Caliphate/ country. Thats already ISIS.
Since more of your own british people are joiinin ISIS instead of your own fucking army. RIP fag.
>Bernie raises minimum wage
>Adopts Socialism
>Income tax nearly doubles
>Yay Socialism
t. pay 53% income tax
>>59410173
Damn you sound mad as fuck
>>59410297
>Since more of your own british people are joiinin ISIS instead of your own fucking army. RIP fag.
>Muslims
>British people
If they're leaving to join ISIS that is only a benefit, less of them here
>>59410267
It's the media's fault. They're pushing way too hard trying to manipulate the people because they don't understand everyone's online now and fact checking is easy as fuck. They can't lie as effectively anymore.
This is why the government is trying so hard to regulate the internet, by the way.
>>59410022
He said he wants to send ground troops into Iraq, take the oil, and give it the Wounded Warriors. He's that retarded
>>59410232
>implying a lot of things.
No, I see the underlying implications of your suggestions.
You are not the first person in the history of the world to make these suggestions.
You even admit you don't know Economics, at least Karl Marx had a rudimentary understanding. You just think you're too big for your britches.
Tell me friend, why do CEOs get Golden Parachutes?
>>59410048
massive immigration, both legal and illegal is part of it. If you look back that change you're talking about didn't really start til the 60s. Right around the time we changed our immigration laws.
>>59407952
The amount of shitty ads on that site sure shows the quality of your post
Who would you rather put in charge of your own household economy? Trump or Bernie?
>>59410619
Bernie.
In such a small environment you can just take advantage of him.
I would feel no remorse.
>>59410686
>Bernie.
Bernie just donated 25% of your budget to charity.
In which area are you going to tighten the belt?
>>59410446
>Right around the time we changed our immigration laws.
Yep. We made it more restrictive.
Immigration has nothing to do with wages or unemployment.
>But that contradicts the narrative Fox tells me!
It's very simple. Every person who comes into a country not only takes a job, but also becomes a consumer. They spend money and the money they spend creates jobs. If you are saying that adding one person to an economy doesn't also create at least one job, then you are saying Capitalism is a fundamentally broken system, and as population goes up, wages will always go down, and unemployment will also go up.
The economy doesn't care if someone is an immigrant or just got out of school or anything, it only cares about warm bodies. If one warm body doesn't create a job for itself, capitalism is doomed over a long enough period of time.
>>59410109
Whats funny is the fact that all the corruption in government comes from weak-willed cucks wanting to be rich. Keep shoving that liberal nigger dildo up your ass for satisfaction, faggot.
>>59410430
Link. Now.
>>59410742
Tighten the belt by kicking bernie out
>>59410761
>Immigration has nothing to do with wages or unemployment.
That's officially the dumbest thing I've read all week.
>>59410873
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/12/22/trump-on-ground-troops-against-islamic-state-i-would-do-whatever-you-have-to/
He didn't quite say "I want ground troops." but when asked the question "Will you send ground troops" he said "I'll do whatever it takes"
He's demanded we steal Middle Eastern oil many times, including during the debates.
>>59410985
So you must be a socialist then right? After all, if it's not true, then capitalism doesn't work.
>>59411019
Better that then a huge bill obongo and obama left
>>59408896
Tribalism is the only way that works. We fight our tribal nature too strongly. National Socialism is the only brand of socialism that can work because you can't take care of everyone. If you define your nation along ethnic lines and take care of them while telling others to fuck off you can make it. Those "others" would be smart to do the same as you in their own ethno-states.
Then you compete for territory and resources. From this competition we grow as a species as the dominant nation state conquers all.
>>59410845
You realize you just made his point, right?
>corruption in government comes from weak-willed cucks wanting to be rich.
The point being that
>The average american needs to stop voting for people like trump with the false idea of "I'll be rich one day too". I'm honestly starting to believe it's stockholm syndrome at this point. These people don't care about you. They'll do whatever they can to gain more wealth and more power.
Trump is nothing special, and Trump doesn't give a shit about anyone but Trump; It's mindblowing when you see /pol/ treating him as if he isn't the same as every other candidate.
Work on that reading comprehension muchacho, we're going to be building a wall soon I hear...
>>59411048
Immigration has little to do with. Socialists are the biggest pro immigrants cucks ever
I just donated to a politician for the first time because Bernies just that great
Feels good man
>>59411159
No one wants your jew cuck. Get over it
>>59407952
Lol, faggot socialist detected.
>>59408678
Maybe if you guys stopped listening to HIM all day and get your shit together then you would be better off. I love that band but sheesh.
>>59410761
Holy fuck literally nothing you said is true
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965 made immigration less restrictive
Adding more people to the country increases the supply of labor driving down wages thats basic economics.
Sure immigrants get jobs and spend that money creating demand but answer this question Who do you think creates more demand Joe who gets paid $12/hr or Paco who gets paid $9/hr? And keep in mind Paco lives in a house with a dozen of his friends and they all send half their paychecks back to Mexico
>MUH FOX NEWS
>implying fox isn't establishment and pro-immigration
every fucking time. I can't even stand fox news get that faggy libtard talking point out of here
>>59411232
>Being this buttblasted
Oh I forgot school is out for winter break...no wonder...
>>59411048
Your logic is flawed and doesn't take into account time lag.
When you flood a country with immigrants who take all the jobs for much less than a native would accept, the native becomes unemployed and can't spend money. The immigants who accepted lower wages can't afford to spend as much money as the native did, because they're getting paid less. On top of that, because they're immigrants, they don't have the same access to credit that a native would have, so their contribution to net demand is even lower. ON TOP OF THAT, many immigrants don't spend their money in the country, they send a lot home to relatives living in worse conditions in the country they came from.
Slow steady population growth is good for capitalism. Sudden drastic changes in the supply side of the labor market fucks it all up with tons of follow on consequences for the rest of the economy.
>>59408821
>I went to liberal arts college and now I'm convinced that capitalism is evil
>>59408793
I don't want to be rich. I'm fine being "Well Off". I know that when the rich man has money, things are better for me. Poor people having money never made things better for me, OR them, because they inevitably squander their money on frivolities. That's actually why they're poor, not some systemic oppression.
When Rich people have money they spend it on grand projects. When poor people have money they spend it on crack, liquor, and overpriced ghetto clothing.
I've never seen a welfare mom building spaceplanes and reusable rockets. However, I have seen a really rich guy named Elon Musk do so.
Simply put, Rich people are really the only people that matter. They are the movers and shakers. It is their dreams and visions that give our society meaning. The aspirations of a billion "up and coming rappers" from the hood are nothing in comparison.
>>59407952
>"I think what Trump has done successfully I would say is take that anger, take that anxiety about terrorism and say to a lot of people in this country."
>"Look, the reason for our problems is Mexicans, and he says, they’re all criminals and rapists. We’ve got to hate Mexicans. Or he says about the Muslims, they’re all terrorists. We’ve got to keep them out of the country. That’s what we have to deal with to make America great."
Wow, Bernie is truly a stupid man. Do liberals actually believe the bullshit they make up?
>>59409155
this
>>59411313
I'm not the one voting for a irrelevant failure career politican millionaire jew cuck who won't even get the nom in the hopes he will get other rich jews. You are
Pic related: you
>>59407952
>hates working people
>showed his sons the meaning of hard work by making them work at his hotel
okay bernie.
>>59408821
>implying capitalism hasn't worked for all this time now
>>59411493
>mfw I'm not voting for either politician
Yup, stereotypical American schoolkid.... I'm sure you'll be adding a lot of substance to this thread...
>>59411302
>Who do you think creates more demand Joe who gets paid $12/hr or Paco who gets paid $9/hr?
What's stopping Paco from asking for $12 an hour? Surely you're not saying capitalism is denying him a fair wage?
>And keep in mind Paco lives in a house with a dozen of his friends and they all send half their paychecks back to Mexico
You can't spend dollars in Mexico. He's still spending his money here, he's spending it to buy Pesos. Someone else in the U.S. gets the money eventually. It's the exact same thing as a millionaire who invests in the Forex markets.
>mfw people type shit like "Capitalism doesn't work" on a computer.
>mfw I have no face
>>59411302
1,500,000 millions.
>>59408130
Everyday for the next year
brace for it
>>59408253
Obama made nothing work
>>59411567
Sure you are not, cuckboy
>>59411416
If a person is getting paid less money, then they aren't spending it obviously.
But that means their boss is getting paid MORE money because he is spending less on labor costs. Are you saying the rich don't contribute to economies?
>Sending half to Mexico meme
Again, you can't spend dollars in Mexico. You spend your money to buy pesos, but you're still spending it.
>>59411682
>EVERYONES A KEK BUT ME
>TRUMP DA GREATEST
>I DON'T HAVE ANY ARGUMENTS FOR OR AGAINST ANYONE SO I'LL JUST CALL EVERYONE TEH KEK MAYMAY XD
Enjoy these years, they're the best you'll ever have. Eventually you have to work and move out of your parents house and pay bills and shit -.- it sucks.
>>59408678
National Socialism isn't any more feasible than any other socialist system. Corruption and cronyism was insane in Nazi Germany. Socialism is shit. The government is incompetent and shit.
>>59411730
>You can't convert money
Socialists: they really are THIS retarded!
>And now, Ladies and Gentlemen, may I proudly present to you the next President of the United States!
t. Millenial
>>59410307
>mad
You mean the truth?
Wrong picture there fiendo. Pic related is Bernie in a nutshell. And you can't argue against his weak, beta, kuck attitude, action, and thoughs.
Everything he says, does, acts, fantasizes, and does, is weak, beta, and loser like.
Even against Hillary, he let her kucked him, used him, and he not only did not hit her hard when he had the chance, but after Hillary and her DNC party kucked him what did he do? He apologized like a good little weak beta.
Apologized to the Hillary democratic party that is fucking him over at every turn.
And good little kuck bern fags will still probably support Hillary after what she did to their beloved weak kucked Bernie. Even when he tried desperately like a little beta kuck to give her a pass on her illegal email scandal.
OP has responded once and only to fan the flames.
Sadly no (You)s for that post bud.
>>59411807
>Being this fanny flustered someone made fun of your cuike
GABIDALISM IS EBIL :-DDDDD
t. Bern Sandres
>>59411583
>What's stopping Paco from asking for $12 an hour? Surely you're not saying capitalism is denying him a fair wage?
First of all, Paco's probably illegal and is getting paid about $4/hr, not $8. Second, he can't ask for more for a variety of reasons:
>fear of deportation
>fear of being fired for asking for a raise
>fear or being fired so the NEXT immigrant coming in can be paid $3/hr instead of him
>being unfamiliar with worker protections in the US because he's not from here and isn't familiar with the language
Paco knows there's no reason to hire him over a native if he isn't massively cheaper and far more willing to put up with bad working conditions. That's why immigrants dominate the agriculture industry, because they don't demand regular breaks, clean drinking water, and somewhere to piss and shit that isn't a bucket at the corner of the field.
>>59411583
>You can't spend dollars in Mexico.
You absolutely can. And don't pretend currency exchange contributes to demand in the US, the wealth is still flowing out of the country.
Read a book.
>>59411943
Glad to see you acknowledge that you're substanceless.
School starts again next week I hope, for /pol/s sake.
Enjoy your shitposting.
>>59411583
How is it so hard to grasp simple economic concepts? No wonder you're a fucking socialist.
wages are a product of supply and demand.
Supply:workers
Demand:employers
If flood the country with workers supply goes up causing wages to go down. Paco can't get $12 because there's always someone behind him willing to do the same job for $9, Like Javier or Jesus. If you get rid of all of them then the supply goes down and the only person left is Joe who'll do it for it $12. The employer has to pay him $12 because thats the market price of labor.
I'm not even gonna answer your second point because that's just fucking retarded.
>>59412001
Enjoy not being able to vote for your prized jew
I would never, in a million years vote for a delusional hippie kike fossil who has policies like these. If he's president, the illegal immigration numbers will make Germany's refugee crisis seem like nothing.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2015/11/25/bernie-sanders-immigration-return-deported-immigrants/76371112/
>>59411969
>Paco knows there's no reason to hire him over a native if he isn't massively cheaper and far more willing to put up with bad working conditions.
So what you're saying is that the job is actually worth $3 or $4 an hour and that Americans are getting an artificially high wage that is destroying the economy? Surely it's BETTER for the economy to replace everyone with Mexicans than. I guess Libertarians are right, getting rid of all of those labor laws really does help.
>The wealth is still flowing out of the country.
At an exactly equal rate to the wealth from Mexico is flowing INTO the country. If it wasn't exactly equal, someone would be making an absolute killing on the forex market.
>>59412117
Don't bother he is working on the shit skin entitlement concept that white countries and America exist to better the lives of everyone else globally while white men take the blame for its history and existence.
>>59411730
>But that means their boss is getting paid MORE money because he is spending less on labor costs.
No. Boss != owner. The boss' wages are also squeezed by immigration, but more indirectly.
As for the owner, they may make more money, but that doesn't mean they'll spend it. The very wealthy hoard wealth, this is something we both agree on I'm sure. They don't contribute as much to demand as Joe Sixpack who spends 101% of his income.
Now, for the business, when they cut labor costs they don't just let that sit as increased profits: they lower the prices of their goods to try and gain marketshare and drive competitors out of business. This leads to lower prices. Which you might think is good, but now natives are increasingly driven out in favor of immigrants throughout the industry, because hiring natives will cost you marketshare and is now unsustainable.
Serious question: what's the extent of your education on economics?
>>59412117
So your solution is to artificially restrict the supply of labor in order to make wages go up? Why does that sound like those things capitalists hate so much... what are they called...
>>59412219
>At an exactly equal rate to the wealth from Mexico is flowing INTO the country. If it wasn't exactly equal, someone would be making an absolute killing on the forex market.
Lol leftists are so delusional
>>59409380
>There are no people in poverty in socialist governments
>all we have to do is take all the money and make everybody live in poverty, that way there is nobody who is rich and thus nobody who is poor
>>59412298
Okay if you want to call us socialists that doesen't change anything in reality. You are still a retarded cuck who thinks people can't convert Dollars to paso's lol
>>59407952
Nice shill site, cuck.
Hmm, seems like a legitimate site.
>>59411926
Look up videos of him speaking in the Senate.
It's like night and fucking day. During his campaign, he's been weak as fuck, but he used to be such a fucking animal.
>>59412298
Yeah, cause in your borderless utopia no one will have to work and we can all just hold hands and sing kumbaya, right?
>>59412268
>Serious question: what's the extent of your education on economics?
BA in econ, but you clearly didn't take any philosophy or you would have seen long ago I'm playing devil's advocate and asking leading questions to make you say exactly what you (and other people in this thread) have said.
1. Giving rich people lots of money is bad for the economy
2. We need government regulation to keep wages and working conditions up
3. Not doing anything will make the problems worse
You've just made the argument for why we need to elect Bernie. I didn't do it, you did.
>>59412268
Classic econ 101.
Only a retard could not understand this.
>>59411969
I actually disagree with you except for the part about dollars in Mexico. I spend months there every year and I exclusively use US dollars, the prefer it in most cases and if your not at a big chain or franchise you even get better deals.
>>59412219
>At an exactly equal rate to the wealth from Mexico is flowing INTO the country.
That's nonsense. You're trying to claim that a gift from one person to another isn't a net flow of wealth from one person to the other.
As to your other point now you're trying to be facetious to make a rhetorical point, but you've got nothing to back up your position anymore. Creating a global labor market drives down standards of living for everyone except the owners of capital who get to live like kings. It won't just be Paco and Joe making $4/hr, it'll be Paco and Joe and Nguyen and Tran and Mohammed all making $0.50/hr, all unable to afford the products they're producing. And because they're so spread out and globalists can take advantage of localities as they wish, unionization will never ever happen.
Read a book sometime.
>>59407952
>http://www.politicususa.com/2015/12/27/bernie-sanders-rips-mask-donald-trump-reveal-fraud-hates-working-people.html
TRUMP BTFO YET AGAIN YET YOU MEME SIMPLETONS STILL SUPPORT HIM
WHEN WILL YOU UNEDUCATED TRASH LEARN?
>>59412538
>I was merely pretending to be retarded!
I've always been in favor of an end to immigration and tariffs. Fuck free trade. Fuck free movement of poor people.
Sanders would open the gates to immigration then attempt to legislate equality by fiat, which never works.
Trump wants to build a wall, negotiate better deals (ie, end free trade), and will make America great again.
The choice is clear.
Also if you think socialism without nationalism is feasible you need to turn in your BA in economics. Clearly you don't deserve it.
>>59412873
I'm sorry, but not even trolling, if you are anti-free trade, you're anti-capitalism. It's that simple.
I'm not even saying free trade is a good thing, but it is a required tenet of capitalist theory.
"I'M A COUNTERPUNCHER. I WAIT FOR THEM TO HIT ME THEN I HIT BACK TWICE AS HARD"
That or he'll just ignore it because Bernie is irrelevant. Either one works for me. He will never get the nomination anyway. Bernie is fucked and his supporters are literally faggots and disabled retards.
>>59412538
>Giving rich people lots of money is bad for the economy
Giving? Pants on head retarded.
Nobody is giving them a God damned thing. And who the Fuck are you to say they can't enjoy the fruits of their labor?
Pic fucking related.
>2. We need government regulation
So you just want your Jew hands on every lever.
>3. Not doing anything will make the problems worse
It's been ok for decades until entitled faggots thought they could occupy their way into gibs.
>>59412538
>merely pretending
>We need government regulation to keep wages and working conditions up
Legislating higher wages while letting immigrants continue to pour in won't fix anything.
If you're a BA you should know that.
>>59412966
>I'm not even saying free trade is a good thing, but it is a required tenet of capitalist theory.
Nope, it's not. Review what capitalism actually is, not what the media presents it as. It's not globalism.
Capitalism only requires that the accumulation and investment of capital be legal. That is, that the government won't just storm your house and confiscate your savings, or nationalize your business.
You don't even need a free market to have capitalism. Let alone free trade.
Bernie must hate working people. Otherwise he wouldn't have blocked legislation designed to audit the Federal Reserve. The central banks have been the biggest reason the middle class is suffering.
>>59412966
>it is a required tenet of capitalist theory
America's been a capitalist country for over 200 years and for most of that time we had tariffs, so no.
>>59408793
>He has no interest in the working class.
Then why is he proposing a 0% tax on couples making less than $50,000 filing jointly?
>>59413047
you're right. the rich are buying everything they want from our "elected" officials. Guess we should just quit the sham and elect a rich guy?
>>59407952
Oh look, Bernie avoids attacking his only opponent!
What are the odds!
it's like he doesn't even want to win!
Can't wait to see his glowing endorsement of Hillary and continued production of propaganda for confused Liberals to rage against successful people.
You have to be mentally challenged, legitimately, if you cannot see that Bernie is doing "a job" for the DNC and not interested in winning. He could have sank Hillary's campaign months ago with just a few weeks of solid attacks (see what Obama did in 08) but he doesn't want to compete, because he is not allowed to.
He is literally running a fake version of OCCUPY controlled by the DNC with a focus on "evil right wing boogeymen". This was so a new OCCUPY type movement didn't raise and collapse the Clinton-backed DNC altogether.
And you morons fell for it, and continue to do so. Bernie is the worst type of liar because he knows what emotions he is making you feel with his bloviations. He wants you to feel them, knowing full well it is a lost cause from day one.
Trump might be an asshole. He might be a totally vain man. He might be a complete narcissist. But so are most politicians, and he isn't hiding anything because he has done tremendous damage to his brand and legacy. He is the real deal.
Bernie is about to retire and gets a nice windfall of money to sit his greasy keister upon.
>>59410761
>immigration has nothing to do with wages and unemployment
Well. The labor force are employed and unemployed peoples. The adult population are all people irregardless of participation in the labor force. So if immigrants come into the country and take jobs. The labor forces rises in size. Employment goes up but unemployment could rise too. If the immigrant take lower wages than others those already employed are replaced. Now wages is a bit tricky here. If the immigrant take lower wages the expected wage for all workers in general goes down. Wages are based on expectations. And so are prices. They go hand in hand. Wether wages go up or down relies on several factors and expectations. This is why we say wages are sticky. In the short term yes wages will not react to unemployment or employment levels rising or falling, but in the long term they will. This is because of things like menu costs and contracts for wages are usually set for 3-5 years. In short you are a faggot and a retard
Hernie just repeated his usual lies about trump, he didn't unmask shit.
Explain to me how raising the minimum wage helps the working class.
i can literally guarantee you're some scrawny fucking vegan with blue hair.
>>59413351
Corruption is not a function of being rich.
At the very least, Trump doesn't NEED a government position to enrich himself. He's already a billionaire. I'd trust him with the keys to the vault more than some poorfag with more superpac support than actual supporters.
>>59407952
Here's how a Bernie Vs Trump debate would go:
Announcer addressing bernie: Can you answer blah blah blah question.
Bernie: Sure, I....
Trump: Stop talking. I'm talking now. In fact move over get away from the podium.
Bernie: O-o-ok I guess that's f-f-fine.
>>59410048
In the 1800's a quarter ounce of gold would buy you and your significant other a high end meal. Today a quarter ounce of gold buys you and your significant other a high end meal.
In the 1800's an ounce of gold would buy you a nice suit. Today an ounce of gold will buy you a nice suit.
Something tells me you don't understand how economics work.
It's not capitalism that is making us poor its uncontrolled government spending and money-printing causing inflation.
Also if the government controls the money supply and the interest rates it really isn't a free market.
>>59412457
>Bernie
>look up videos of Senate
That makes his whole beta kuck campaigned ever worst. Significantly more. He is either a traitor, or a Hillary plant. Maybe she promised him secretary of state if she wins.
>>59409447
>>59409719
>>59409934
Look at all these inbreds being fooled that poverty is "natural." Fucking shills for a system that doesn't give a fuck about them
>>59409636
Slums are a capitalist creation. The Third world was pillaged to expand markets, it's fucking sad we can't imagine a world without poverty
What is this liberal meme that everyone "Thinks they'll be rich someday too"? Have any of you ever met someone who actually thinks that? I know I haven't. I don't believe that and I have literally never met anyone who thought that either. Is it just another meme they use to make themselves feel smarter than everyone else? Or that somehow rich people are brainwashing regular people to think that? Do you really believe this shit?
>>59413992
Meanwhile it exists in greater numbers in socialist states.
Hmm
>we could all do well! Gimme dats
So delusional
>>59413992
Its sad imagining a world without 30 women begging to sit on my dick, but thats just how it is. People are not equal and will never be, leave your wicked fantasies in your head
>>59411583
>Can't spend dollars in Mexico
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Jesus they even take Canadian you retard.
Have you ever even been to Mexico?
Mexicans LOVE dollars.
>>59413992
Poverty is a disease of the mind. It's related to lack of discipline and lack of ability to plan for the future.
In a country with bankruptcy and no debtor's prisons, there's no institutional barriers to anyone rising out of poverty through hard work.
>>59414223
I am not saying people are equal in ability, but why the fuck are we working more than ever before for shit? Keynes said we'd be working close to nothing by now, that capitalism would accelerate things so that we wouldn't have to do shit, but look how wrong he fucking was -- our productivity is up, but we work more and our wages are shit
>>59414156
That's because capitalism is global dipshit. How the fuck can you have a socialist economy in a global capitalist system. Makes no goddamn sense
>>59413807
>Let's predicate that market economics for gold, and events like the crash in gold value in the last two decades that has only now just got up to pre-crash values, will suddenly end now that we only use gold
>Let's believe that there will never be a sudden inflation in the value of gold now that the entire gold supply SOLELY in circulation is the world's currency supply
You realise that government must control the gold supply as a currency in order to bring back a gold standard right? And that fiat currencies exist outside of government regulation (t. Dojima Rice Exchanges), and with large histories of currency manipulation via speculation to make a buck too right?
>>59408715
>implying anyone makig minimum wage is considered middle class
>>59414338
>muh work ethic
My dad works plenty and has gotten paid shit all his life, so shut the fuck up you pampered bitch
>>59413992
Right the socialists apartment complexes were the lap of luxury, and were well constructed and maintained.
>>59413158
Wow, you raped that kike hard.
>>59414510
>worked hard
>got paid
>didn't save any of it
>bawww if only he'd been paid more
No. He should have saved what he could and invested it wisely. If he'd lived more frugally he could have been comfortably wealthy.
You don't get rich from having a large income. You get rich from saving a lot of money, regardless of your income.
>>59414510
Hey retard, I think you neglected to read.
>and lack of ability to plan for the future.
Your dad was an idiot and so are you
>>59414417
Way to miss the point.
The point is that wages aren't the issue it is what they are being payed with.
I'm not arguing for the gold standard and I never did. But at least the government can't just type in a random amount of gold into bank accounts they have to actually possess it physically.
>>59414714
That's how oldfags roll, son.
>>59414750
>You don't get rich from having a large income. You get rich from saving a lot of money, regardless of your income.
directly contradicts
>He should have saved what he could and invested it wisely.
I agree with the concept that money which is not being invested is money that is not be utilized to its full potential.
Shame I've got 20k sitting in a bank account but recent family dilemmas are forcing me to keep it as a rainy day fund.
>>59414784
>>59414750
Saved what? housing market crashed, he lost most of the value on his apartment he wanted to sell, so now he has to go paycheck to paycheck to pay his bills on an overpriced complex he can't afford. He's got nothing to save. What the fuck are you going on about?
>>59414400
>We need to put my retarded ideas on a global scale
How about no? Lol
>>59414962
sick burn, are you this retarded all the time or just on 4chan?
>>59409709
good thing i didnt delete this
>>59414890
>Welcome to Harlow New Town do you recognize your block across the square?
>Over there.
>Sadly since last time we spoke we've found we had to raise the rent again
>Just a bit.
>Oh! No, this I can't believe.
>Oh, Mary. And we agreed to leave!
>>59414962
>>59415015
DDDDDIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSED!
BEAT THE FUCK OUT!!!!
>>59414750
I don't understand how somebody could be against higher fucking wages esp. at this point in time. Just look at the job market, it's utter shit if you actually go outside your mancave
>>59415015
>Being this buttblasted that your line of thinking is moronic to say the least
>>59414400
They also thought we would have flying cars. Also are you plowing a field by hand? Are you mannualy assembling toothpaste? What are you even talking about. You want a kilo of gold for flipping a burger? No you get a few bucks. You get more responsibilities and you get paid more. Socialism is a jewisch failed experiment, it doesnt work and will never work in a human society.
>>59415111
How is raising wages going to fix the job market? Are you fucking 7 years old?
>>59415104
take a look at this faggot right here
>>59415169
Suck it! You got wrecked, Jabroni!
>>59415166
It's not going to fix the job market, but we're getting fucked screwed by employers that are continuing to monopolize and merge and here you are shilling for their global efforts. Congrats on being stupid
And this board is 18+ silly
>>59408981
Boomers are socialist counterculture faggot you dumb shit
>>59413940
He is absolutely a "plant".
He is a satellite for Clinton, he absorbs all the insanity of modern Leftists and attacks who Clinton needs to be attacked.
>>59415260
>>59415104
>>59414928
Why are you commenting on this as if it's not you intelligently patting yourself on the back. We can see yer digits retard
The second a McDonalds employee starts making $14/hr, research and development of burger flipping robots will increase a hundredfold. And god knows Tyrone isn't going into robot repair and maintenance.
>>59415429
>research and development of burger flipping robots will increase a hundredfold
and?
>>59415514
Shit bait, shit thread.
>>59414928
Person A makes $100k/yr, but instead of saving money they take out a bunch of loans and live beyond their means, so they pay $20k in interest yearly, make minimum payments, and have no savings.
At the end of their working years they'll have no money saved up and will have to lower their standard of living to finish paying down that debt and be able to retire.
Person B makes $30k/yr, but they live well within their means and avoid debt like the plague (except for a mortgage on a sensible small home, which they pay off quickly). They save $5k/yr and invest it conservatively, achieving a 5% annual return on investment. They work for 40 years and never once get an increase in pay, but they also continue to live within their means.
After 40 years of compounding on their investments, Person B has 634,198.81. If Person B retires and maintains their current standard of living, they can fund their lifestyle without touching the principle, which they can leave as an inheritance to their children.
It's entirely possible if you have discipline and can plan for the future. NB I didn't account for inflation, because I assumed their income and investments would keep pace with inflation which is a reasonable assumption for the long term, especially considering I assumed they'd never get an increase in pay after all those years which is not at all likely.
>>59415418
I'm ironically acting like a dipshit on the internet to, hopefully, highlight to you how you acting unironically like a dipshit on the internet is perceived by others.
>lol how bout no xD
>Dawg u retarded huehue >.>
>>59415652
Rolling.
>>59410297
>your own british people
Maybe in weed land you consider them that way, not so much in Europe.
>>59415652
>>59415764
Schmuphraim Katzenowsky. I like it.
>>59415652
just fuck me up like Jeb
>>59415711
Someone is mad that Bernie will never be president
>>59414934
Do you want financial advice? Because I promise you, your father could right now at this very moment set himself on the path to being debt free and having savings, if he wanted to, even despite the setback caused by putting all his eggs in one basket buying some kind of overpriced real estate at the height of a bubble.
I know this because my parents did the same thing and managed to get out of it.
>>59415711
>perceived by others.
>implying I give a fuck how I'm perceived by /pol/
fucking kek
>>59408821
Capitalism has worked bretty gud m8.
Europe is way more fucked than the Angloshphere.
>>59415652
oy vey goy
>>59416042
You were the kid unironically wearing button up t-shirts with flames and skulls on them in highschool, weren't you? Absolute madman.
>>59416020
congratulations, your parents won the game. Are you happy and content with your life now?
>>59411446
rich people get rich when poor people spend money on "frivolities", or did you skip class on first day of econ?
![Keine_pointing_ironic[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kW6bqqI.jpg "Keine_pointing_ironic[1].jpg")
>>59415711
>>59416170
He's right though, you know?
2008 only revealed who failed to properly plan ahead. It knocked most people down a peg, but people who had planned around things not always being magical and easy, they made it out fine. Hell, a lot of people made it out fine without planning by changing their lifestyles after 2008.
>>59416160
>>59416051
>Europe is way more fucked than the Angloshphere.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
>>59416338
Compare america to france
>>59416300
>Hell, a lot of people made it out fine
This is why we have Trump this election idiot, the recovery is shit and things are not fine. Look around the country, this is place is a shithole unless you live in some big economic hub
>>59416449
why would I ever compare anything to France
>>59408253
>democratic socialism
How come there's no definition of democratic socialism?
>>59416475
We have Trump for a LOT of reasons, more than I care to list, but yes, one of them is that there were a lot of people who thought "I always did things right and honest, so why aren't I rich yet!?", but the thing is that doing things honest and being a good person is not a substitute for having discipline and planning ahead.
2008 was economic darwinism, and a lot of people didn't make it.
>>59413940
Sanders has definitely been cucked, in spite of DNC screwing him over he refuses to go negative on a very flawed Clinton.
He also dosen't seem to know much about foreign policy, I imagine he'll retire after this run.
>>59416508
Franc is European and America is in the Anglosphere.
>a bigger minimum wage means the working class is going to earn more
socialists should not make statements about economy
>>59416449
In what way do you think the U.S.A is better off than the average European country? Not meaningless things like military might, but things that actually matter to the average person.
Seeing as we're on /pol/ you should surely be concerned that you're over 20% less white than any European country.
>>59407952
>Meanwhile, interestingly enough, John, this is a guy who does not want to raise the minimum wage.
>implying that raising the minimum wage would actually help the poor
>implying that Bernie knows anything about economics
>>59413992
>Slums are a capitalist creation
Slums exist everywhere regardless of capitalism. Even the USSR had slums.
>>59416770
>Still refusing to compare france
Unemployment and youth unemployment for starters.
% of the population that support isis
>>59408793
>He wants tax breaks for himself and his buddies.
Objectively false. He has already said his tax increases will effect him.
>>59416898
America is also better than pretty much every euro country with freedom of expression as well. In the UK and france you go to jail for hurting a shitskins feelings
These threads make me want Trump as the US president more and more
Fucking glorious
>>59408253
Nice meme
>>59411242
WHY DO FOREIGNERS LOVE HIM? IT'S CONSIDERED KIDDIE TIER ROCK HERE
yes i mad
>>59417027
>freedom of expression
>in current America
kek
>>59417114
Well relatively yeah. I can call the holohoax what it is here and can advocate violence to a certain extent
>>59417027
I definitely agree with this, however I think that with younger generations it's becoming the other way round, mainly to do with the HUGE Jewish / Marxist influence on your unis which is less obvious here.
>>59407952
Bernie "please attack me sempai" knows he lost and wants trump to focus on him not hillary.
sanders hates people, period. look how uncomfortable sanders is around people.
>>59417283
No doubt, but you can say the same for pretty much every western nation. We need to purge our uni's of red scum
>>59407952
Fuck off Bernie.
Dont you have a pudding cup to eat.
>>59407952
>open website
>disable addblock
>get bombarded with advertisements
>Hey try this new iPhone Facebook game, it's great. Sign up now, invite 4 friends and show your Bernie support for free ingame tokens
>Buy your #feeltheBERN T-Shirt now!! Only $49.95, made in the USA!!
wew lad, wonder what a supposed news website is going to say about the person that is spending money to advertise on their site. i just cant guess what they are going to say. surely nothing that would interfer with any money being made from the advertisements that a company has paid money to have in place. wouldn't want to risk losing a source of income by badmouthing anyone ))))
>>59415274
Funny because all of your big government socialism favors those mega corporations, instead of the small businesses. Oh but wait, you think those mom and pop stores are evil for not paying you 15 bucks an hour to stock shelves. They're clearly just taking advantage of you, you poor thing.
Why oh why must we struggle to pay our iphone 6 contract whilst also paying for a 2bd1bth apartment in a nice part of town, as well as eating out 5 times a week and starbucks 3 times a day 7 days a week.
We are truly reverting to medieval peasants. What next, are we to start growing and cooking our own food?? God we might even have to move out of the big expensive cities! Truly poverty is terrible.
>>59416170
I was offering advice, not trying to mock you. It's a real shame that more hardworking people DON'T make it in this country, because the school system and media teach the opposite of good financial practices to encourage wage/debt slavery.
>>59417588
wow
>implying I'm a liberal shill
>implying I want big government
>implying I want mega corporations to run shit
please read >>>>>>>>59415274
>>59417744
I've heard this same song and dance many times buddy, you're not turning any heads with your grand advice
>>59407952
>Not archived
f u c k. o f f.
>>59415652
Oy vey!
>>59417765
Aren't you shilling for Bernie/socialism in this thread?
>>59417816
The resources are out there. If you have the will to better your lot in life, you can. You don't need to put your hopes in random puppets making promises they've already demonstrated they won't keep.
>>59407952
Skimmed through a bit, and quit reading as soon as he started making false claims, which took like 5 seconds.
