which one is right?
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which one is right?
/honestview/ here
there should be some sort of healthcare safety net for those who are just fucked. it should be free healthcare for those who work or have worked for 5+ years and are under 35 if you are over 35 and havn't worked over 5+ years you are either rich or fucked anyways. special exceptions should be handled by committees(?)
Libertarians are fucking idiots.
Bernie Sanders is right. That's the thing about National Socialism though; You first establish a national identity (e.g. aryan, citizen, cat owner etc.), then you provide for them.
>>58766666
with whose money? you can't provide for someone without enslaving / stealing from those that have.
Is Rand Paul REALLY that fucking retarded?
Both aren't correct.
I like both of them a lot but Paul is being pretty irrational here. Being paid for a public service isn't slavery.
Free universal health care is shit, but I don't think it should be to the point in America where it costs 50 thousand dollars to get a band-aid on your knee i you go to the hospital.
>>58766222
Paul is technically correct, though I think he walks down the wrong avenue in making his point.
Healthcare is a right, in that you can bandage and dress your own wounds.
>>58766666
Nothing is free you fucking child.
Everything Bernie proposes can only be achieved by heavy taxation.
>>58766870
>but I don't think it should be to the point in America where it costs 50 thousand dollars to get a band-aid on your knee i you go to the hospital.
realistically this only happens to people who think they're being smart and saving money by not paying for healthcare
poor people get tax-funded healthcare already, which was widely expanded under obamacare
>>58766222
You should have the basic right for bad healthcare. You shouldn't have a basic right for good healthcare though, that costs money.
It's the way we have it over here. The shit-tier people like me have to use the public system, but the people who want good healthcare will use private doctors.
>>58766222
what rand said makes no fucking sense
>>58766761
Why do you think we say He isn't his father's son.
>>58766846
He is not being irration,doctors in america are rich,here in my country they earn as much as blue collar workers all thanks to universal healthcare.
Holy fucking please OP tell me you wrote that. Rand Paul isn't that retard? OP tell me
>>58766970
No, you shithead, the Band-Aid still COSTS 50k, but if you have insurance, they will cover most of the cost.
There's no fucking reason for it to cost that much in the first place.
>>58766666
quads confirm libertarians for fucking idiots
what a beautiful day
>>58766761
>>58766846
I get what Paul is trying to say, but he phrased it really poorly. When healthcare is nationalized, you're working at the whim of the government. You lose control over things that were supposed to be perks for going to medical school for an unholy amount of time.
>>58766222
Sanders is in the right here.
I mean, we don't consider the police to be enslaved when they have to investigate crimes in every neighbourhood.
Libertarian hyper-individualism is as always foudned on sheer autism.
>>58766870
>Free universal health care is shit, but I don't think it should be to the point in America where it costs 50 thousand dollars to get a band-aid on your knee i you go to the hospital.
You can thank the government for that.
With the exception of maybe the banking/financial industry, healthcare is the most regulated industry in the United States.
>>58766846
>Being paid for a public service isn't slavery.
Wat.
>>58767017
so you like Ron Paul but don't agree with Rand on this? that's fucking hilarious.
>>58766995
>You should have the basic right for bad healthcare. You shouldn't have a basic right for good healthcare though, that costs money.
/thread
>>58766916
And if women build the entire fucking world they could have more of say in how to run it.
>>58767087
>I mean, we don't consider the police to be enslaved when they have to investigate crimes in every neighbourhood.
The police have no duty to help you in America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
>>58767021
In a nation that isn't as poor as Argentina we won't have a problem paying doctors way more than blue collar workers.
>>58767094
It's not. By default getting paid for a job isn't slavery.
>>58766222
Doctor Paul is closer to right, but the reality is that health care is a commodity. There is no natural right to a commodity, even if it's food, or water. Instead, you have a right to own property, which may include commodities.
>>58767040
>literally can't count to 5
>>58767040
>quads
Look again
>>58766222
>there are people on /pol/ on this day at the end of the current year who actually believe that pic related represents the best healthcare system in the world
People who do not support a public option in healthcare that is free at the point of entry are morons of the first order. Period.
>>58767039
>but if you have insurance, they will cover most of the cost.
That's right! You'll only be $5000 out of pocket! Isn't that so much better than paying nothing?
>>58766666
Q-quints checked
>>58767040
Singles confirm you cant fucking count to 5 or recognize that nothing in this world is free.
>>58767087
So it's just a mystery why police in Denmark investigate crimes more thoroughly in rich neighborhoods than in poor ones?
Both spewing idiocy, but this is the dumbest R talking.
>>58767168
That still means they will earn a lot less.
And if you keep up the heavy taxations your economy will become shit tier like Europe's
>>58766882
No one said it was "free" in the sense that it costs nothing. Literally everyone understands that it has to come from taxes. I don't understand why you retards think pointing this out is some kind of argument.
>>58766222
>that the system can offer
That's the problem right there. System. If you want to be a doctor and help people and make a living at it, good. If you want to be a fat, self induced diabetic, luck you there's a doctor that wants to help. You don't need to go getting the government involved in shit that's not their business to start with. If doctors refuse assistance, or make it unreasonably expensive, that's a societal problem, not a policy problem.
>>58766222
Why don't we just put price ceilings on Hospital bills.
Force hospitals to charge exactly what the material cost were for the operations.
>>58767282
>or recognize that nothing in this world is free.
Except in first world (and many shit-tier countries too) healthcare is free at the point of use. It should be here too.
>>58767168
A Swedish general practitioner makes 1/3rd as much as one with the same education and training in USA, before taxes, with about half of the Swedish GP's income going to taxes.
source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2670288/
>>58766222
Neither. Free healthcare without strings attached cause the growth of extremely r-selected shitliberals who ruin everything with pansy ass, poz bullshit - just look at Canada.
The only way anyone should get "free" healthcare is the way they do now - by joining the armed forces. Lolbertarians don't realize that they don't have a right to be protected by others.
They pretend they will fight individually if the country is invaded, but we know that when the shit hits the fan they'll run to the center of the country and let everyone else do the fighting for them.
>>58767334
>Argentina
>calling any other country's economy shit
When's your next default scheduled?
>>58767344
If you understand you need to tax people to get this then why do you support it?
Cuck fetish? savior complex?
>>58766916
that's true; women would bitch amnd moan about why they should have the babies, because they would now be responsoble for literally nothing at all
>>58767315
were did you come up with that bs?
>>58767195
>It's not. By default getting paid for a job isn't slavery.
For one, I don't think you even remotely comprehended his point. At all.
Two, yes you can very much be a slave even if you are payed. Slavery is when you are forced to labor for another person against your will, full stop. If I throw you in chains, put you in my basement making widgets for 20 hours a day, and threaten to beat/kill you if you resist, I have enslaved you. Me giving you a few pennies does not magically change this.
>>58767247
I agree. Paying for shit is stupid.
FREE SHIT FOR PRESIDENT 2016
>>58767119
underrated post
>>58767444
Why don't you learn from our mistakes instead of electing the only candidate that behaves like an Argentinian populist?
>>58766995
yea like a field medic during world war 2 style health care versus a field medic during vietnma style healthcare
r-r-right finland?
>>58766222
>my goodness
Fucking rand
>>58766222
I'd love to see these two go at it some more, they are essentially opposites in terms of political and economic philosophy.
>>58766666
Nice try satan.
Rand Paul fundamentally misunderstands (or strategically mischaracterizes) the health care debate. Nobody is suggesting that doctors work for free. What people are suggesting is that every person's paycheck have some nominal amount deducted to pay for health insurance for every American.
Basically, that there is one insurance company, and it's the government, and everyone has a policy with them whether they like it or not. Now if an unemployed person needs to go to the doctor, the doctor isn't treating him for free. It's as if he's treating a patient with health insurance. The insurer (in this case the government) pays the doctor for services rendered.
The debate isn't over whether doctor should work for free or not. That's retarded. Nobody should be forced to work for free and nobody is seriously suggesting this. The debate is whether the government should be responsible for taking an insurance premium out everyone's paycheck and providing insurance for everyone (even those who don't work) in exchange.
>>58766222
You have the right to attempt to not die.
You can attempt it as best you can. That does not mean you will succeed.
Hey thanks Bernie. I've been doing drugs and banging dudes for the last 10 years. You can treat my Hep-C now? That's great. The course of therapy costs $70k? Really? Whatever, it's my right. A lifetime of HIV meds is hundreds of thousands of dollars? OK cool, someone will cover that right? Great. And I can't work with all these health conditions now. I can get food stamps, right? OK. Nice.
>>58767359
How do you determine the price of labor?
>>58767513
Slavery is being owned as the property of someone else.
Being an EMT, firefighter or cop is not considered slavery. They are public servants paid to work for the public.
>>58767519
>can't argue
>CHECK OUT MY STRAWMAN ARGUMENT XDDDDD
Libertarians, everyone.
How is public money going to the police force different than public money going to healthcare?
Bernie doesn't know what a right is, and Rand doesn't know that Bernie doesn't know that.
Both are being stupid here. Rand should have just attacked subsidized healthcare, which is what Bernie meant.
>>58766222
Healthcare is not a right, it's a service. A right is something that can be guaranteed, like the right to bear arms. The government won't provide you a gun, but it can guarantee you your right to bear arms - all it has to do is not take them from you. Healthcare, on the other hand, is like claiming that free pizza delivery is a right for every American. It can't be a right because it can't be guaranteed - what happens if there is a snowstorm? Same thing applies for healthcare.
>>58766739
Easy just redirect some funds from defense spending. The US can certainly spare it. Instead of using the money to kill innocent people half way around the world maybe the US can actually spend some of its money on bettering its own people.
>>58767119
bingo
>>58767687
Doctors are not civil servants.
>>58766222
When will people get it through their minds that right != free shit
>>58766222
Healcare is a need.
Needs and rights are not synonymous and interchangable.
You have a right to bear arms
You have a right to freedom of press etc
You need food however you are not entitled to it
You need healthcare however youbare not entitled to it
However it is the goverments duty to help provide for the needs of a nation. A goverment should help its citizens get the jcare they require, but a sigle payer system foolish.
>>58767450
>If you understand you need to tax people to get this then why do you support it?
with this logic a country shouldn't have a military because only cucks will want to be forced to contribute to the national defense
>>58766222
paul is right, though his phrasing wasn't very good..no one has a universal right to free healthcare. The burden free healthcare on the taxpaying segment of society is too great to justify its cost.
>>58766222
Rand isn't, if that helps. He is using the definition of a strawman and appeal to emotion.
No one is being forced to do anything. Doctors are still getting their whistles wet, your healthcare doesn't change that. Nothing Rand says is actually happening or going to happen.
>>58766995
This is correct. Universal healthcare means, for one, that you CANNOT set your own price point. The government does. A physician should be able to decide his own worth, they are NOT created equal, not even close. The distance from an average to a great doctor is ENORMOUS.
Source: I'm a slightly above average doctor. There are some idiots below me, and I work with some guys that are so much smarter than me and know more than I'll ever know. They absolutely deserve more than me.
A top tier cardiothoractic surgeon with a 98% positive outcome rate is worth 100x more than one with an 88% rate (which is about average).
A Universal healthcare system makes it very difficult to have the pricing where it works out appropriately.
but lets take Denmark for an example.
health care is 100% free, and its pretty good for being a universel one. sometimes it can be abit slow, but most people who have money can go to a private hospital and pay cash, so they dont have to deal with the wait time. its a pretty good system, and the docs do get paid alot of cash
>>58766666
Pents checked
>>58767450
Because I think it should be a human right. Because all my life I've lived in prosperous 1st world countries that already have this system and because of it I've never felt stressed out about my health problems costing me my savings because of some bullshit the insurance jews trumped up.
It's cute that the manlet actually thinks he's a doctor
this works for guns as well right?
>>58766222
Trips checked
>>58767703
It's not. The people who think it's an entirely different concept have been conditioned to do so by people who benefit off of your essential services being a for-profit enterprise.
>>58766222
Rand.
Because You have the right to Life under the Constitution
Not the right to a long life, not the right to a free long life, and not the right to a free long life justified by "I believe"
But the right to Life that cannot be taken away from you by the government.
>>58767839
Constitution doesn't mention healthcare.
forcing a healthy person to subsidize sick people (read: nonwhites) is an abuse of government power
it doesn't matter how you explain it
>>58766222
it doesn't have to be a right for it to be provided by the government.
the argument that it's a "right", that the government MUST provide it, is what rand says. coercing health care providers to perform.
that the courts can come in and say that the system must remain, or that so and so's sex change is covered under the 14th amendment.
that's what it being a "right" implies.
that's the problem with positive rights.
it can be a service provided by the government without being a right, though.
>>58767817
>Human rights
You disgust me
>>58767768
So we want the government to handle everything, because they're so efficient? Once they've tackled healthcare, how about food next? Why not shelter? Why don't we all just have government housing?
>>58767875
The fuck are you trying to say? You first generation?
>>58767890
that has nothing to do with what i asked
>>58766666
>a finite resource is a right for everyone
this will surely work!
>>58767736
>redirect funds from defense spending
The US has a very bare bones defense budget at the moment. You fucking liberals always shit the bed and suggest lowering the defense budget. How do you lower something that is already considered to be the bare minimum?
Healthcare is a privilege not a right.
>>58766222
What the fuck that's not at all what it means, we live in 1st world countries fucking act like it or go back to somalia
>>58766222
>implying consent to "conscription" and submission to altruism are not conditions to receive medical education and training
>>58766222
slavery my ass. doctors make fucking amazing money. In Canada they push through as many fucking appointments as they can. 15 minutes is 100 bucks and sometimes you don't even get seen for what you originally went in for and you cannot discuss more than one problem per appointment.
>>58767047
It just sounds like quite the exaggeration, though.
>>58766666
CHEM EM AND THEN SOME
>>58767952
You asked
>this works for guns as well right?
The constitution does not mention healthcare.
>>58767983
This is what we have to put up with anon. It's nauseating.
>>58767778
>I feed, house and clothe my niggers
>therefore it's not slavery
If I have an inalienable right to health and you are a physician, you do not have the right to refuse me service. Compensation is irrelevant, the point is that you would be made under an implied threat of force to do something, with no say in the matter
>>58766222
God, he is such a pussy. But every once in a while Rand Paul says something that is brilliant.
>>58767940
>So we want the government to handle everything, because they're so efficient? Once they've tackled healthcare, how about food next? Why not shelter? Why don't we all just have government housing?
No but its telling you evaded my point entirely. Is taxation ok in certain situations such as national defense? even very libertarian people think that is one of the only justifiable roles of taxation for national defense. If that is true then we are just arguing degrees of what form of taxation is justifiable then and not whether taxation as a concept is justified.
>>58766222
>HURR IF WE HAVE FREE GOVERNMENT MAINTAINED ROADS, YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING IT'S OKAY TO ENSLAVE CONSTRUCTION WORKERS WHENEVER WE NEED A POTHOLE FILLED.
Holy shit, Rand...
>>58766916
if men were able to get pregnant, they'd also deal with it with a quart of wiskey, a hammer, and a night alone in the garage.
same way we take care of our own kidney stones and wisdom teeth.
>>58767736
>innocent
>>58767875
>Retard libertarians actually believe this
>life not being the first word followed by "liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness"
Top fucking kek
>>58767039
I wonder why Healthcare costs are so fucked. Hmmm. Maybe because we have a system that doesn't ensure everyone and the high costs reflect what hospitals have to charge to stay open in such a fucked up system.
>>58766916
he knows how to play his base
>>58767740
Everyone is a civil servant with socialism
:^)
>>58767780
Sounds pretty based.
>>58767983
>>58768061
In the United States, doctors are not civil servants, dipshits.
That is not the case in other countries. Our medical system is not controlled by the government. A doctor is not paid through your tax dollars. A cop and teacher are.
If you have a problem with that, vote to have teachers employed by the state. Right now, that's not the fucking case.
Holy fucking shit.
>>58766222
The one who doesn't advocate for slavery.
>>58767965
>The US has a very bare bones defense budget at the moment.
God Australian shitposters are out of control.
>>58768048
so you are retarded, alright then
>>58766916
If women could produce children asexually, then there wouldn't be a discussion about their right to choose.
>>58766222
What Rand said sounds exactly like what Stefan Molyneux would say in one of his videos. Top kek.
Rand Paul is right.
>>58768160
>The Declaration of Independence is the supreme law of the land
>>58766222
Rand is correct, he takes it to the logical conclusion. It bothers people when they think too hard about it though.
>>58767634
Jesus Christ, I don't know if people are being intentionally disingenuous or if their comprehension skills are so poor they can't follow basic arguments.
The issue has nothing to do with
>pay
and Rand (neither in this quote or elsewhere) does not make this argument, nor do other libertarians.
The issue is one of
>force
because if the government declares that all people have a "right to healthcare", then they obviously have the right to obtain said healthcare. Now "healthcare" does not fall from the sky nor grow from trees. So where does "healthcare" come from? Oh right, "healthcare" is (barring the various medical supplies) fundamentally a service provided by people (i.e. doctors) performing labor.
Therefore, to say you have a "right to healthcare" INTRINSICALLY means you also believe in a right to
>force
the people to provide you with this healthcare. And again, the word we have for forcing someone else to labor on your behalf is "slavery".
>>58768196
You know or Doctors are public servants in almost every other rich and developed nation on Earth.
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humility and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
Written in 1964 by Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University, and used in many medical schools today.
>>58767965
it's very much not the bare minimum, it's loaded with graff and bullshit.
granted, it'd take a decade to actually wind things down, but we aren't in that process or in the process of cracking down on the corruption.
the only thing bare-bones about current defense budgeting is enlisted personnel.
>mfw completely free appointments with doctors whenever I have a problem
>mfw free hospital visits and ambulance rides
>mfw even all the goddamn medication the doctor prescribes is free to me
Goddamn I love the Scottish NHS. And I'm not even from around here.
>>58766879
If you watch the clip Bernie actually starts off his question with "philosophically speaking". Rand Paul gives him an appropriately philosophical answer. Now liberals take Rand out of context.
>>58768231
I can't tell you the sky is blue any other way, faggot. Look the fuck up and understand that there is no hidden message. The sky is blue and you either accept that, or you jerk yourself off saying it's sometimes black. If you actually gave a fuck about having a conversation you'd listen to what people are telling you.
>>58768220
No shit chief. I'm advocating that they should be public servants. Like every almost other developed nation on planet Earth.
>>58767965
>The US has a very bare bones defense budget at the moment
as a defense contractor lmao you could not be more wrong
You don't have the right to somebody else's time.
>>58768173
Or maybe it's just textbook price gouging.
>>58768243
can't tell if tumblr being srs or australia shitposting.
>>58767736
>Easy just redirect some funds from defense spending.
Our defense budget in 2015 was $560 bn USD. If we slashes it to zero and put all of it towards healthcare, that would be $1,761 per citizen — slightly above what Mexico spends per capita on healthcare.
Why should someone who eats healthy / exercises / doesn't smoke etc. be forced to pay the same amount for healthcare as someone who is obese, or a drug addict, or a chain smoker?
If you choose to give birth to a mentally or physically handicapped child based on your religious belief, should other, sane people, have to pay for it?
>>58768160
>life not being the first word followed by "liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness
>retards think the DOI is the constitution
thank god the founding fathers gave us a republic with electoral college and not a direct democracy eh?
>>58768428
The near autistic aversion to the idea of public service on this board never ceases to amaze me.
>>58766666
How can anyones time and effort be a right for someone else?
Doctors are humans, not inanimate objects, how is having their time and skills a RIGHT for everyone else?
>>58767965
>bare minimum
>spent over a TRILLION dollars developing a new fighter jet with the following ratings;
Speed: B
Armor: C
Air to air combat: B
Air to ground: B
Capacity: B
Head to head with:
F-22 raptor in Air to Air: Lose
Russian Mig in Air to Air: Lose
Air to ground compared to A-10 Warthog: Lose
Bombing capabilities compared to modern bomber: Lose
>>58766222
trips.
They're both wrong, though Paul more so.
Bernie is wrong because you can't give every person the best possible health care. You absolutely have to ration healthcare, the system couldn't bear the cost of giving every american a yearly full body scan or some such.
Paul is wrong because there are dozens of countries with universal health care and what he is describing has never happened in any of them.
>>58767503
Did you forget what board you're posting on?
>>58768402
I'm unconvinced this is a good thing.
All the best medical colleges are in the states as well as 90% of new developments in medicine.
And you should really understand that everything the government does takes forever and costs more than it should for lesser quality. Because it's a top-down solution to a bottom up problem.
>>58768442
>If you choose to give birth to a mentally or physically handicapped child based on your religious belief, should other, sane people, have to pay for it?
unless you institute a national eugenics program :^)
>>58768502
Police ar ehumans not inanimate objects, how is haveing their time and skills a RIGHT for everyone else?
EMT's are humans, not inanimate objects, how is having their time and skills a RIGHT for everyone else?
Firefighters are humans, not inanimate objects, how is having their time and skills a RIGHT for everyone else?
>>58766222
"Healthcare" is not a right.
America doesn't have "positive" rights aside from providing you legal counsel.
If healthcare was a right in the same since as the right to free speech, Rand's idea of conscription would be correct.
What liberals want is an entitlement healthcare system: medicare for everyone. Doctors would get paid a shit ton less.
Further, just because something is nice and used by nearly everyone, doesn't make it a right.
Healthcare as we know it is a new development. The drugs, technology, and operations we can perform now are amazing. Back in the 18th century, we didn't have all of that.
Other things that aren't rights but everyone has:
Education (as held by the Supreme Court)
Food
Housing
Clothing
Cars
Computers
Cell Phones
And so on. Most of us need all of this in our life, but they're not "rights." And the government shouldn't provide it.
>>58768495
What's the difference between "public service" and slavery, exactly, if the former is also mandatory cocksucker?
>>58766824
You're an idiot. This is what regulation and administrators are for...pls go.
>>58768567
good point, so have you guys gotten snow jet?
>>58767736
>defense spending
Every fucking time.
The military is one of the few things that the federal government SHOULD be paying for, and you retards want to scrap it.
Do you know why the USA is the economic powerhouse it is? Why we Australians (and a slew of other nations) engage in trade deals that are far more favourable for you than for us? Because your military is so extensive and impressive that you can use it as a bargaining chip when trading with your allies.
But hey, Rodriguez' Liberal Arts degree should be 'free'.
>>58768594
They don't have to help you
>>58768546
Paul was remarking from a philosophical meaning, just because it hasn't happened doesn't make him wrong. If you have a right to be provided healthcare, then if no physician willingly helps you, one would be forced.
>>58768594
none of those are rights
you do not have a right for police to protect you, and they have no duty to protect you
>>58767147
>>58768384
>rand says if something is a right i'm allowed to take it by whatever means i see fit
>i have the right to bear arms
>therefor i'm allowed to acquire my arms however i see fit
you really are fucking retarded
>>58768577
Our country's stats on the average person's healthcare are fucking embarrassing and we rank behind spics and southeast asians in several categories.
>>58766666
You aren't entitled to someone elses work you fucking faggot. What part of that is so hard to understand.
>>58768600
slavery tends to be defined by its non-voluntary nature, its not like you can quit being a slave but you could quit being a physician
>>58768594
Actually the Supreme court has ruled that law enforcement officers are under no obligation to help people :^)
The rest is stupid because thats literally what the job entails for those careers, there are no private firefighters.
>>58766222
Neither of them. Universal Healthcare is a scheme where in you reduce overall costs by averaging out everything that could happen to you and the people who don't get sick take care of the people who lose life's lottery. It's like gambling with your life.
It still bends to MONEY IN = MONEY OUT though, the amount of money you can spend on someone for life extending medication is limited by the proportion of people needing that medication. And further restricted because you should treat mechanical failures of the body before you treat chronic diseases (ie fix broken bones rather than treat cancer)
Now, you can raise MONEY IN so you can get more MONEY OUT, but at some point you're crippling the economy because there's a lot of people who aren't productive enough to pay in to the system and support themselves. (Same reason progressive tax brackets exist).
But like ANY welfare system, it's a pyramid scheme. We can't support giving nice things to everyone, so the people getting those nice things (life saving cancer treatment and the like) have to be the minority of the minority.
>government program
The cut throat system of capitalism is simply better at keeping costs down than a government system would be. I don't have a solution for this problem unfortunately.
tl;dr, the American Economy should be strong enough that we can support universal healthcare, but forcing universal healthcare without burgeoning the economy to support it will fail. Too many leeches right now (because we lost manufacturing to China and Mexico). And we can't forget that the only reason our health care system is good is because of PROFIT MOTIVE, any kind of universalized system needs to integrate into the system in place. You can't demand all doctors get the same pay for the same work, because they all have different qualifications and different situations and that competition is the driving force to improve the system.
Am I cuckoo loo loo in the head?
>>58768442
Further to my last post.
Say you have universal health care and an alcoholic drug addicted woman who already has multiple children with fetal alcohol syndrome comes to your hospital and gives birth to what will just be a million dollar tax burden, do you sterilize her?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/i-didn-t-want-it-done-saskatoon-woman-was-sterilized-against-her-will-1.3324980
>>58768515
we really need to pull a china over that fiasco, and execute not only some generals but also the corporate heads and nationalize the assets of whichever company fucked up and sell them off to competitors.
heads need to roll publicly, and companies need to cease existing wholesale.
the lesson needs to be taught.
>>58768648
yes they do, if you dont live in a 3rd world country, wait i forgot, the US is a 3rd world country.
>>58768648
Yes they do. I know what you're citing and it doesn't mean what you think it means.
>>58768659
Yes they do. The job of the police, firefighters and EMT's is to protect and serve the public.
>>58768692
You're reading that decision wrong. All it says is that no one individual call is more important than another. Their duty is to the public at large, not individuals.
>>58768699
> Her mother was caring for her twin sons and four other children at the time.
>>58768730
>>Yes they do
No, they do not. Your personal opinion does not override the supreme court.
>>58768677
So imagine there are simply not enough physicians to treat everyone, yet everyone nevertheless has a "right" to healthcare. What, exactly, happens then?
>>58767718
Ah, but the governmentcan guarantee you the right to necessary medical services at an affordable rate. All it takes is to pass a law or an amendment. Like the one that says an armed and trained militia is necessary to ensure liberty.
>>58768660
>>58768660
>rand says if something is a right i'm allowed to take it by whatever means i see fit
No, this is Rand pointing out what "positive rights" inherently entail.
As he believes in "negative rights", there's nothing for you to take from others to begin with (labor or otherwise).
>>58767394
>free at the point of use
>free
pick one
>>58768809
>>58768803
I swear to fucking god 90% of the people on this board have no idea what they're talking about.
>>58768665
>rank behind
by what metric?
The only issue people tend to have is the price. And what they think they should be getting for it.
Everyone wants the best of the best, but when the bill arrives they suddenly feel like their lives weren't worth that much.
Look at tit jobs from mexico vs tit jobs from japan. You can get the same operation but you'd willingly pay multiples of what you'd pay in mexico to get it done in japan because they're just so much fucking better at it that it's worth the cost.
>>58768660
All I said is that the constitution does not mention healthcare. THEREFORE it's a false equivalency, faggot. God damn.
>>58768729
k
>>58768730
I think it's pretty clear what it's saying, for the police at least
>>58768660
>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
It protects your right to have weapons, meaning the government cannot take them away. It doesn't guarantee a right to be provided weapons
You have the right to live.
You are not guaranteed to live.
It's that simple.
>>58768803
Two police officers watched a man getting stabbed by a serial killer on the New York subway and did nothing to help him.
But sure, argue semantics all you want.
>>58768865
price per capita, overall satisfaction, infant mortality rate,...
>>58768596
You talk about rights as if they're a fixture in the universe instead of something decided upon by people.
When you say "they aren't rights" what you should be saying is "I don't think they should be rights". And you should be able to defend that position.
>>58766222
none of them. rand went a bit over board with the metaphor, and bernie is a comie kike. its simple, if youre too stupid to make it on your own, you deserve to die. health insurance isnt that fuckin expensive. stop trying to steal oter peoples money just because you dont have any. thats why i hate this piece of shit country
>>58768273
yeah, I would rather condone "slavery" in some philosophically bullshit way than be bankrupted by an infection.
>>58768867
Clearly not.
>>58768900
Were they on the job? Was there another call in progress?
>>58767771
>no one has a universal right to free healthcare
All it takes for that to change is a constitutional amendment.
>>58767247
should have ripped up your social security card, drivers license, and voter card before going to the hospital
nobody to blame but yourself for this one
>>58768924
Are you including abortions in infant mortality? If you'd rather give birth in Mexico than the United States, you're in denial of reality.
The other two points relate to price. So I already addressed that.
>>58768932
thats a pretty good point
>>58768803
>>You're reading that decision wrong. All it says is that no one individual call is more important than another.
Where?
>
A Metropolitan Police Department officer arrived at the scene. In response to the officer's direction, appellant's companion ceased any further efforts to obtain identification information of the assailants. When the officer then failed to get the information, leaving Nichol unable to institute legal action against his assailants, Nichol brought a negligence action against the officer, the Metropolitan Police Department and the District of Columbia.
>In a 4-3 decision, the District of Columbia Court of Appeals affirmed the trial courts' dismissal of the complaints against the District of Columbia and individual members of the Metropolitan Police Department based on the public duty doctrine. The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
> The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
> The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
> The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
> The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
>>58768809
yeah her mother was caring for her FAS kids because she was a junkie, the cbc won't write the truth
>>58768160
thanks for repeating exactly what he just said.
>>58768932
Don't bother man, he's not going to get it. He'll probably tell you that god literally gives him rights.
>>58768978
Yes they were in uniform and on the job. No there wasn't another call in progress, they literally made no attempt to help the man as he fought for his life while they watched from the inside of the conductors room
>>58768173
or maybe its because the government put its fuckin nose where it doesnt belong, and, like everything else they touch, it fucked up
>>58768830
if you are making the implication that they would put physicians into involuntary servitude you are having to make an absurd example to support your claim
"right" is a dumb word to use from a legal standpoint (I agree with Rand there) but you are just taking the opposite putting being a physician in a country with Universal Healthcare as equal to a slave.
Well the one on the right is a retarded straw man, since currency exists, and taxes exist, and the whole debate is whether or not for the government to fund healthcare for all citizens. Nobody would be working for free by any stretch of the imagination.
Basically the real argument is whether or not healthcare should be a service that is provided for taxes collected.
Rand's little foray off into bullshit rhetoric land fails to address the reality of healthcare in the USA: The EMTALA creates defacto universal healthcare albeit in the most expensive way possible as it forces hospitals to admit people to the er if they are in need, regardless of their ability to pay.
So when Bernie is talking about healthcare what he really means is some method of streamlining the process.
Rand is just babbling, basically.
Also, he is not a doctor at all. He created a board to certify himself as an optometrist. That is not the same as being a physician.
He is not currently certified by any board recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties...so he's not even really an optometrist...
He's completely full of shit on this subject, he has nothing to say.
Health care is not free in Canada. Last Year I payed $850 in taxes towards my health care (Ontario). How much do you Yanks pay for insurance?
>>58769055
The only right you have is the right to work toward your own interests. That can never be taken from you by force.
All this other shit is pretty stuff you right on a tin to attract citizens to your park.
>>58766916
We had the right with child support but women took that right away.
>>58766222
It's a service.
>>58769123
How does a right to healthcare work if there's not enough doctors to service everyone?
>>58769012
No they're not including abortion and no the average american cannot afford the best quality of care in the world. That's a myth.
>>58769019
Anon, read what I fucking told you and read their conclusion and tell me how you think I'm wrong.
What I said
>All it says is that no one individual call is more important than another. Their duty is to the public at large, not individuals.
Their conclusion.
>The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
>>58766916
if men had birth control there'd probably never be an unwanted baby in the first place. Check mate.
>>58766222
>free healthcare is slavery
Jesus, get on board with the rest of the Western world and help your people out. I've had surgery for a torn rotator cuff, a sports hernia, and I've had a broken collar bone and countless stitches. Guess how much I've paid?
I'll give you a hint:
It starts with a zero and ends with a zero
>>58769191
>, no specific legal duty exists."
are you actually retarded?
>>58767780
What about the aberrations in the pricing of medical care as it stands now?
There is a reason that a hospital stay will set you back $100,000 and it's not that the hospital provided $100,000 worth of services to you.
The healthcare sector is not a free market at the consumer end
Maybe it is on the physician end with respect to negotiating salaries and such
Hospitals and doctors charge those exorbitant sums of money in anticipation of reaching a settlement with an insurer or medicare or medicaid for pennies on the dollar.
However, for an uninsured person, that price is final.
The system is broken.
Don't say otherwise Doc
>>58769188
>How does a right to healthcare work if there's not enough doctors to service everyone?
like everyone saying this, are you making the implication that physicians would be put into involuntary servitude?
>>58767780
>Universal healthcare means, for one, that you CANNOT set your own price point. The government does.
You do realize that private health services still exist in countries with universal healthcare, right?
That even in the UK with their famous NHS, you can, if you want to, pay a private company $500,000 to treat your cancer.
>>58769191
So a baby is more likely to survive child birth in Mexico than the United States? Please list the countries that beat us on infant mortality. And tell me you'd rather have a child be born in them instead.
>american cannot afford it
No shit. That wasn't my point, cunt.
>>58769229
You don't pay any taxes?
>>58769234
>[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
In other words.
The police have an obligation to the public at large not any individual in the public.
>>58769191
What this means is that unless you're in custody they have no legal duty to protect you. Thats it, thats all. Theres no legal obligation for a police officer to help you period, unless they have you in custody.
>>58769265
If it is a right, logically the answer would be yes. However in reality, no, it would not happen because people would never do that, so therefore it is not a right
>>58769105
If you have a "right" to something, then others have an obligation to provide you with that something.
Bernie Sanders believe healthcare is a "right". He's gone on the record saying it probably hundreds of times.
>>58769188
the doctors, instead of spending half an hour examining each patient, instead spend 5 minutes with each patient and tell everyone that aspirin solves everything.
>>58769234
No specific legal duty exists to an individual. Their duty is to the public at large.
>>58766222
National healthcare systems can potentially work in an ideal scenario.
In a prosperous nation with a stable economy and a low unemployment rate, whereby the government makes a healthy suplus, it would not be an issue to subsidise healthcare to those who cannot afford it, as a form of safety net. This was the idea that the UK had in mind when the NHS was created decades ago, when Britain had a steadily growing white British population with high employment rates, low crime rates and a healthy economy.
The USA is a massive nation with huge ghettos, massive amounts of people already dependent on government handouts for nearly every single aspect of their life and most importantly the single largest national debt on Earth. Introducing a national healthcare system whilest in this dier position would be like taking out a loan for a new Porsche when you don't have the money for you next rent payment.
>>58769269
Private health services do exist, but ones ability to pay for them is removed since you now have to pay higher taxes to pay for state healthcare rather than your own private healthcare.
>>58769349
>If you have a "right" to something, then others have an obligation to provide you with that something.
so where are my guns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPmtBg4wPH0
>I'm fine with my taxes funding people to be so fat they are disabled
>>58766222
Stupidest quote i've ever seen attributed to Rand
>>58768675
>what is capitalism
>>58767780
>A Universal healthcare system makes it very difficult to have the pricing where it works out appropriately.
Hw familiar are you with how this works in countries like the Scandinavian ones? I've never, ever read or heard about an MD complain about his salary.
>>58769229
Even HuffPo says canadian healthcare is shit
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/nadeem-esmail/canada-free-health-care_b_3733080.html
>Don't be fooled by claims that health spending isn't high enough or that transfers for health care to the provinces have been insufficient. Canada's health care system is the developed world's most expensive universal-access health care program after adjusting for the age of the population
>And the bill is getting bigger over time. Before inflation, the cost of public health care insurance went up by 53.3 per cent over the last decade. That's more than 1.5 times faster than the cost of shelter (34.2 per cent) and clothing (32.4 per cent), and more than twice as fast as the cost of food (23.4 per cent). It's also nearly 1.5 times faster than the growth in average income over the decade (36.3 per cent).
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bacchus-barua-/health-care-costs-canada_b_6004034.html
>Meanwhile, the average Canadian family of four (two parents, two children) earning $101,724 will pay $11,786.
>>58769188
How does mail work if there's not enough mailman? How do police work if there's not enough policemen? Ect, ect ect.
It's a retarded spin and dodge that has nothing to do with reality, don't be so easily swayed by cheap rhetorical devices, you have been propagandized by a simplistic soundbyte.
>>58769349
>If you have a "right" to something, then others have an obligation to provide you with that something.
Why can't I purchase a MANPADS then? :^)
I always find it funny how other nations think they're more developed than us because they have "free" healthcare even though they actually are paying through a high income tax
>>58768273
Libertarians are so fucking stupid.
The government supplying demand to your service and paying you for it isn't. Fucking. Slavery.
>>58769350
you would make prioritis the paitens, kinda like TRIAGE
>>58766761
His statement is 100% accurate.
If someone has a RIGHT to healthcare. That means doctors are required to provide that healthcare, even if the patient can't afford to pay them. Let's say all doctors went on strike, for whoever reason; if you have a RIGHT to healthcare, then that would imply that the doctors don't have a right to strike, and can be forced, at the point of a gun even, to provide that healthcare to anyone that needs it.
A RIGHT to healthcare does imply that a doctor can be forced to provide healthcare if no other doctors are willing to provide it.
Let's look at it another way. If everyone has a RIGHT to healthcare, and Hitler were dying (I'm going with the Jew meme that Hitler is 'literally' the worst human ever to exist) and all doctors refused to save his life, wouldn't that imply that because he has a RIGHT to healthcare, those doctors should be forced to save his life? Even if they don't want to?
How do you force those doctors to provide for this right if they refuse to give service? A gun to their head? A threat on their families? I mean, it's a RIGHT.
Sanders, and you are a complete and utter retard if you think Rand's explanation has even the slightest drop of sense in it.
NATSOC is ultimate form of government. If only we could combine Trump's nationalism with Bernie's socialism.
>>58769401
You don't have a "right" to guns, you have a "right" to not have your property stolen from you - if you even have that. It's the difference between a negative and a positive right.
>>58769483
>How does mail work if there's not enough mailman? How do police work if there's not enough policemen? Ect, ect ect.
Nobody has a right to mail or police.
>>58769505
It isn't a right either
>>58767736
How do you boneheads get off thinking that the theres enough money going into defense to pay for the our nations healthcare?
Like where do you get these numbers?
Im pretty sure the extent of your thought process is "America has the largest military in the world, so there must be spending like 3x on military what we do on healthcare, of course theres enough money there" and thats it. No further research or thought.
Healthcare is 17 fucking % of the GDP. Do you have any idea what defense is?
>>58769505
>The government supplying demand to your service and paying you for it isn't
What the fuck does this even mean?
>>58766222
>two men are dying
>only one doctor around
>not enough time to save both
>doctor does not want to save either even for all the money in the world
Do you force the doctor to save one of them?
>the doctor is now a slave and has effectively no rights
If so, which one does the doctor save?
>the one who dies had no right to healthcare
Positive rights do not exist.
>>58769489
I don't know what MANPADS are, but if someone restricts you from possession of whatever those are that's wrong.
>>58766222
Here, this is a Canadian friend of mine.
She waited SIX YEARS for medical attention
The idea behind free health care is wrong because it sends the wrong message to society.
It gives people who don't give a shit about their health a get-out-of-jail-free card. They can do whatever they want because they can always just go and see the doctor without paying a cent outside of their taxes.
Meanwhile, people who exercise, eat healthy and look-out for their health will very really actually use the free health-care. And yet these people also have to pay huge taxes for services they don't even need.
>>58769541
>You don't have a "right" to guns
i absolutely do you fucking liberal kike shill
>>58769335
No anon, read the whole fucking case. The woman was getting murdered and/or raped and the cops responded to another call instead.
They brought a case against the cops and the supreme court decided that the police have an obligation to the public at large and not individuals. I don't know why I bother arguing anything here.
>>58767503
Wait, you mean to say you genuinely believe that police treat crime the same way regardless of who is victimized? Seriously?
>>58769579
And how often do doctors turn away patients?
>>58769530
Universal healthcare will not erase private healthcare from existence. Thus your whole argument is void.
>>58769621
>>58769483
>How does mail work if there's not enough mailman?
they cut down mail deliveries to fewer times per week.
>How do police work if there's not enough policemen?
they have fewer patrols, fewer detectives, and more crime.
both of these things happen regularly in the US. there are places that only get mail delivered twice a week, here.
>>58766222
Sanders is right. Libretardians, capitalshits and conservacucks are scum and literally worse than SJWs.
>>58769384
if they dont have the money to pay for a private sector hospital with taxes, im gonna bet that they dont even if you lowered their taxes, go be a stupid sweden somewere else
>>58769269
Why would I pay for a service that I'm never going to use because a private option is necessary?
>>58768099
Are you on crack? Jumping from "we should have social healthcare" to "you want to beat down my door and force me to take care of you" is worse than my craziest ex on her craziest anti-depressants during her craziest PMS trying to start the craziest fight.
>>58769599
Lmao. Man portable air defense system. A homing missile launcher to shoot down aircraft.
>>58769380
>Thomas Sowell is /pol/'s version of Neil deGrasse Tyson.
>/pol/ is literally a mirror image of plebbit, but just as plebby
>>58768459
>implying they don't have literally the exact same ideology behind them
Also, no.
>>58769621
He's completely right, you have no right to guns.
You have a right to keep and bear arms that shall not be infringed.
A right to guns would imply the government must give you a firearm if you do not have one.
I kind of support that tbqh
>>58769625
You're a fucking idiot, I explained all the details of the case I was talking about and you STILL think I'm talking about some woman
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/subway-stabbing-victim-sue-city-cops-didn-stop-attack-article-1.1409451
>>58767687
>emergency services is a human right
>keeping things from burning down is a human right
>investigating a crime committed against me is a human right
>>58769614
You know that healthy people get sick or injured unexpectedly right?
>>58769541
>>58769599
>You don't have a "right" to guns
2nd Amendment and DC v Heller (2008) disagrees with you. It is an unambiguous right
pic related for MANPADS
>>58769269
>>58769384
Private healthcare in the UK in pointless. The level in care with a private firm like Bupa is barely any better than with the NHS.
The problem with the NHS is that if you go to the doctors and tell them that you have stomach pain, the doctor will tell you to eat less fatty foods and eat some branflakes in the morning. If you go to Bupa they'll send you a specialist hospital in Germany and get your stomach scanned for tumors by 3 different machines.
The first system tries to save as much money as possible and the second tries to rinse you for as much as possible. Both are shit.
>>58768623
Yes,in some places, mainly up north and in the interior.
Big country, you know. Lots of these very tall, rocky things we call "mountains". I know it's hard to believe, but many places in Norway are many, many metres over sea-level...
>>58769694
he didn't say that retard. He said it wasn't a right. You can have socialized healthcare without it being a right.
>>58769653
I'm pretty sure people would be able to afford private healthcare if they weren't forced to give up 30%+ each month from their salary plus all the other taxes like VAT, tobacco, alcohol, gas and such.
>>58769401
You have the right to BEAR arms, as in own them, carry them, and use them; you don't have a right TO guns.
>>58769603
Yet she felt that 6 year wait was better than just going to a private physician, which she could have done.
Guess her knees weren't so fucking bad after all.
>>58767687
The difference is that you do not have a right to have your house saved by a firefighter. Local governments tax for the purposes of paying for all of this. There are actually some places in the US where you have to pay a fee to be covered by the local firefighters. If you don't pay the fee, the firefighters will literally just stand outside your house and watch it burn. They will only intervene to save a life or prevent it from moving to property that is covered.
>>58766222
Paul saying health care being a right would require him to be a slave is like saying gun smiths are slaves because of the second amendment.
>>58769697
People should be able to possess anything they acquire through their labor and voluntary interactions. That would include any and all categories of things.
>>58769544
establishing the post office is one of congress' enumerated powers.
it's not an innate right, but is a prescribed duty of our government.
>>58769641
australia has private healthcare.. but also a public option paid for by a flat tax.
>>58768675
>What part of that is so hard to understand.
You say this as it is some sort of true statement and not just your stupid opinion.
>>58769746
Wording is important, obviously, Anon.
You have a right to keep them. You don't have a right TO them.
>>58769746
You didn't bother to read the rest of my post, just as the guy I was responding to didn't either.
>>58769625
In case you're too fucking dense to read a fucking article you dumb cunt.
A man who was brutally stabbed in a subway in 2011 while cops were only a few feet away in a motorman's booth cannot sue the city for negligence, a Manhattan judge ruled today.
A man who was brutally stabbed in a subway in 2011 while cops were only a few feet away in a motorman's booth cannot sue the city for negligence, a Manhattan judge ruled today.
A man who was brutally stabbed in a subway in 2011 while cops were only a few feet away in a motorman's booth cannot sue the city for negligence, a Manhattan judge ruled today.
>while police stood a few feet away
>while police stood a few feet away
they weren't responding to another call, they were standing there doing jack shit.
fucking nigger
>>58769755
However, with the private one you can choose which doctor you go to, you're not forced to pay for everything they advice you to do.
With the NHS you're in the hands of the government, they choose if you get treatment or not.
If he says go home, you go home, no matter how sick you are and those money you paid for the help you didn't get? You won't see them again.
There must be a system by which doctors have the power to bargain and by which everyone is given health care.
>>58766916
If men were giving birth to babies there would be literally no reason for women to exist
>>58767778
Its a thought experiment, dumbass. Hes not saying thats what will happen, hes responding to Bernies assertion that healthcare is a "right", and if we were to deem it an absolute "right" then the above situation is possible.
It would be strawman if he was saying "this will happen", hes just saying that it could happen
>>58769641
Universal healthcare isn't a right. It's a political concept. That's the point. Your argument fails because you don't understand that basic difference.
>>58769849
that money*
its getting late
>>58769561
Actually, no. What is it?
>>58769188
Immigration.
The UK is facing the exact crisis you describe, a massive shortage in healthcare staff from nurses to doctors to surgeons.
Their solution to this has been to import masses of healthcare professionals from pakistan and india, and masses of nurses from Africa, and the leftist retards think this is just a wonderful example of why immigration is fantastic, completely ignoring the utterly despicable effects this is having on the source nations.
>>58766222
Rand is right in principle, if those were the only two options, but its a false dichotomy, because they aren't the only two options.
>>58769782
>this is what bernie fags actually believe
what do the ebil republicans force gunsmiths to give out guns for free?
>>58769844
You still don't get it man. I genuinely feel sorry for you and your anger problem.
>>58769868
It's called free market. Insurance companies actually damage the free market by ensuring the doctor gets paid.
>>58769868
>and by which everyone is given health care.
Oftentimes the people who cannot afford healthcare have the costliest health requirements.
So you're bogging down the people who fuel the society with the costs of the people who cannot.
Do you think this is sustainable? To have all of our 20-45 year olds paying the medical bills of people in their 70s and 80s that cost millions?
>>58769629
well, first of all, we aint rolling in poorfags every were like you guys, secound of all, there will allways be police officers who will not follow protocall depending on the victim, but in my exprince with the danish police, most people have been treated fairly
>>58769919
about 4-5%
>>58769931
Nice argument.
Good to see you can adequately defend your opinions :^)
>>58769926
underrated post
>>58768594
Warren vs. District of Columbia
Idiot.
>>58766222
You should have the right to taxpayer funded healthcare if you are a legal citizen and have a real disability that prevents you from working and a family that can't afford to pay for it.
>>58769983
>>58769919
It's 3%, pretty much the lowest its ever been in the past century as a % of GDP.
>>58769951
let's pass a law that you get a bullet in the head at 80.
>>58769958
>we aint rolling in poorfags every were like you guys
If merkel gets her way...
>>58769926
>false dichotomy
Are you trying to imply that, rather than healthcare either being a right or not being a right, healthcare might instead be something in between two mutually exclusive terms? A pseudo-right? Please enlighten me and explain what a pseudo-right entails anon.
>>58766222
Does Randlet now understand that he will be paid by the government to do that work?
What a fucking moron.
Everyone IS entitled to free healthcare. We are not sand niggers.
>>58766222
Raise your hand if you have no health insurance.
didn't think so.
You are already paying for someone else's health care. That's what insurance is, morons.
You already don't get to pick and choose whose health care you are paying for ... your insurance company does that.
God you people are too stupid to live.
>>58769772
>you don't have a right TO guns
yes, i absolutely do
>>58769929
Do you think the ebil democrats force doctors to give out healthcare for free?
>>58769764
im not sure what a mountain is, i might have to visit some day to check it out, as long as i dont get to close to sweden.
>>58769904
>isn't a right. It's a political concept.
Rights are political concepts
>>58769958
>we're not rolling in poorfags
Must be nice living in an ethnically homogeneous society like that.
I think this mass immigration should spotlight just how fragile european systems are. You've got generations of people that buy into and support the system so when people join the system that do not support or act in good faith, the system bursts at the seems.
The great thing about capitalism is if you don't buy into the system, you die. Because it's intrinsic upon you to make use of yourself and not someone else.
>>58766222
Wow, Paul is a retard.
>>58769638
You're missing the point. If the doctor doesn't want to save the men the only way to uphold a "right" to healthcare is to enslave the doctor. Even if we ignore that though, how do we decide who has the right to healthcare in that situation? They can't both have that right.
>>58770085
No you do not.
A right to guns would imply the government must supply you with one if you do not have one.
Which implies that gun manufacturers would be conscripted.
>>58770043
Gonna have to go full nerd on you, bro. You just described the premise of a Star Trek episode.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Half_a_Life_%28episode%29
>>58769765
You sound like a crazy bitch.
>>58769299
Czeched
>>58770075
What else are we entitled to? Food? Money? Beds? Cars?
>>58766222
The most important part of this graphic is the two ...'s in rands argument. Tbh, they proabably cut out the part that makes the argument work.
The only right you have is the right to your own destiny. Fuck off socialist shills.
>>58770061
He's saying healthcare can be a publicly provided service, while not being a right. Which is what people here who say Paul is wrong have a hard time understanding.
Yes, you can have a socialized healthcare system even though healthcare is not a right
>>58769819
That's his point. You don't have a right to security or postal services, they are SERVICES. The supreme court has upheld countless times that the police are not required to respond to calls for help.
If security services were a RIGHT, then those police would be obligated to respond to any and all calls for help/aid, and a failure to provide that service would be punishable for violating someone's right.
This is the same thing as saying universal healthcare is a RIGHT, if a doctor fails to provide a service, then their failure to provide would be punishable under the law.
>>58769380
UCLA sucks
>>58769983
>>58770027
Sauce
>>58769832
>You don't have a right TO them.
once again, DC v Heller (2008)
>The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home
>right to possess
why are you playing wordsmith games when you have a right TO possess
>>58769838
no I did read it but you arent making a legal argument you are arguing semantics. Where is there a specific legal right not to have your property stolen, and not one that is a derivative from another law? That right doesn't exist.
>>58767718
>>58767780
spoilers: trump is pro universal healthcare. he wants to repeal obamacare and replace it with a canadian style system.
>>58769148
More than that but it's hidden because it's an employer provided benefit.
>>58770215
No one's arguing healthcare can't possibly be funded by stealing from people. Not one soul.
>>58769265
If not enough people wanted to go into med school, would you start forcing people to become doctors? If current doctors decided they didn't want to work in that environment and retired, would you force them to go back to work? If yes, then you are saying that a right to healthcare overrides other basic human liberties. If no, then a right to healthcare cannot exist. If you don't understand this then you're just a fucking retard.
>>58769505
You stupid fucks are forgetting what "inalienable right" means.
Get some fucking reading comprehension and come back, every single one of you.
Rand is simply arguing that healthcare cannot be a RIGHT. If a doctor decides he doesn't want to serve this man, but healthcare is a right, then he would be FORCED to do so.
Jesus you people are stupid sometimes
>>58770177
lol, nice try slimey limey. but we know the british are triggered by constitutions.
>>58769768
so a nongoverment, capitalist, were the point of treating paitents is makeing profit, i think ive heard of a place were they do that, ohh yea the US, were its so costly people go backrupt, and lose every thing, again go away swed, be stupid somewere else
>>58770215
>Which is what people here who say Paul is wrong have a hard time understanding.
But that wasn't the argument.
The argument was that Bernie said healthcare is a right.
>>58770241
2014 data
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS
2014 was 3.5
2015 is 3.0
>>58770255
Bernie Sanders thinks healthcare is a right, and we're in a thread talking about Paul and Sander's respective positions.
I don't believe in rights in the first place, and I have 0 respect for law, so trying to bait me into defending positions when I'm only interested in intellectually raping yours won't get you far.
>>58769849
That is a valid point, there are always stories in the newspapers about people who were turned away from the doctors with pains or strange feelings and then went to a private firm and discovered they have cancer.
Whenever my mother feels something is wrong with her that the doctor cannot diagnose visually (internal pain - etc) she uses private healthcare.
However this does not address the point, even getting a consultation with a doctor can amount to £500. Private is still shit, they take complete advantage of their position and rinse you for as much money as possible, which is exactly what happens in the USA, wherebye a single accident playing football could wind you up with life crippling debt.
Both systems are shit and some kind of hybrid is needed.
Tax funded healthcare shits itself when the tax revenue starts drying up. It induces a political mess. You either have to raise taxes to even further fuck your economy, take debt or try to somehow make service cheaper. Making service cheaper is fucking impossible, it would either mean cutting wages, cutting service or introducing small payments.
>>58770121
Rights are not political concepts you socialist degenerate. They are moral and ethical principles.
>>58766739
The governments money. Giving everybody due process costs the government enormous amounts of money as it makes the legal system slow and requires government appointed public defenders for everyone.
Healthcare is also a right that the government should provide its citizens.
Are you one of those idiots that thinks we shouldn't pay taxes?
>>58770177
>NHS
>implying I care
NHS can throw the word "right" around all they want, it means nothing.
Rand is right if you follow what Sanders is saying to the extreme. You have a RIGHT to be provided healthcare, that means if every physician in the country refused treatment, the government could force one of them to do so.
This does not mean socialized healthcare follows that same logic. You can have that system even if healthcare is not a right. If you are telling me right now that the British government is not willing to go to the extreme of forcing someone against their will to treat someone else, then therefore it is not a right.
>>58770255
>why are we arguing wording
Because it's all about the wording when you get to legality. It's their job to make sure everything is semantically sound.
And the wording implies the government may not take guns from you. It does not imply you are to have a gun.
The meaning is that if you acquire a gun legally, the government can come in the door behind you and take it from you.
I get what you're saying. I'm saying the difference in wording shifts who is at fault depending on the interpretation. A right TO a gun would imply you are born, and issued a gun. That is not the case. The government simply will not restrict your access/ownership to a gun.
>>58770061
>implying
No, I'm saying that there are means to ensure that people are able to access health care without necessarily enslaving doctors and other workers in hospitals.
Granted, in a third world shit hole where no one pays taxes, it would be economically impossible to sustain even a low-grade health care system for all citizens (tax payers or not), however it is perfectly within the capability of first world nations to provide a basic level of health care for all citizens through a public system. If the citizens wish for more than a basic system, they can pay for access to a private system.
I guess if you are a hardcore libertarian who asserts that taxation is equivalent to mugging a person, this isn't possible, but personally I don't subscribe to such an ideology.
>>58770295
I even said in posts I think saying you have a "right" to healthcare is a dumb argument because you legally don't currently and trying to edify it into an inalienable right would not function well.
Once again like everyone else who makes this argument are you insinuating that physicians would be put into involuntary servitude? You know that is an absurd claim.
>>58770321
Clearly you have no idea how US healthcare works.
Why do you think insurance premiums have risen higher than income and inflation together? The same reason student loans have risen absurdly high - because the government guarantees insurance, just like they guarantee student loans.
Shall we take a look at the costs of creating a drug, test it and then have it approved by the government?
>>58766222
It's an exaggeration. But if healthcare was a guaranteed right, then there would be an implied threat of force.
>I have a right to healthcare, but there are no doctors who will work for the government's set price.
>Either my RIGHT is being violated, or the government must force the doctor to treat me.
Government healthcare isn't necessarily a bad thing, but making it a 'right' is a horrible idea.
>>58770297
eh, yeah it's kinda pendantic though...
I get what you guys are saying.
however I think "healthcare as a right" is more a rhetorical tactic.
and anyway the US already has it with it's regulations on emergency rooms.
>>58770289
>>58770345
The point is people are equating the two, look at the posts. If they are using current socialized healthcare to prove Paul wrong, then they are equating a socialized healthcare to healthcare being a right
>>58769849
you keep forgetting taxes are made, so that the public as a whole, is better off, if we look at the north, were we live, we have a very good life here, and alot of it is thanks to the taxes we have payed, it makes no sense splitting taxes up, as you have to see them as a whole.
>>58770308
That's exactly the kind of non answer I'd expect from a stupid bitch with PMS.
Britain has many vestiges due to its millennia of cultural continuity.
>>58770430
government cannot come in*
My bad.
>>58770177
yeah and Jews and Muslims have the right to not be offended in your country too
who gives a shit
>>58770365
here's an argument
Make me give up my guns and while you're at it make me give you medical care after I've shot you for trying to take my guns.
>>58770431
Except that's not what Paul and Sanders are talking about. You said they're presenting a false dichotomy, but the issue they're talking about (right vs not-right) is a *REAL* dichotomy. *NOT* a false one.
>>58770365
*tips fedora*
If you want people to recognize you, go back to leddit you tripfaggot
>>58770051
naa we will be closeing our borders befor that happens yo
>>58770365
>I don't believe in rights in the first place, and I have 0 respect for law, so trying to bait me into defending positions when I'm only interested in intellectually raping yours won't get you far.
then why do you give a shit what either of these guys are saying? their mere exist is a contempt of your philosophy and even Rand Paul is a bootlicker according to your own logic because he supports the very institutions you find abhorrent.
You have done a pretty shitty job of making a sound argument even though it sounds magical to your teenage ancap angst
>>58770405
there's plenty of money, that's the thing.
it's just in certain sectors of the economy, almost like it's been "sucked up" by some sort of parasite...
>>58767513
Even with universal healthcare:
Doctors can choose to leave the medical profession.
Doctors can choose to leave the country.
Doctors are not forced to work at all, unless they are subject to military conscription (which we don't currently have).
It's only slavery in the sense that having to accept a substantial pay cut is slavery - which is to say, it isn't slavery at all.
>>58766222
Guy on the right is right. Government has right to come to you door with police, bang on it and demand you to take care of them. It is the basis of any state called taxes. They got more guns so you have to comply.
>>58770491
And they're wrong. I don't see the point in pointing out the obvious.
>>58769430
Admittedly not that familiar. Do the best of the best work at a large hospital? If so, they may just be higher salaried.
What I was getting at is private practice vs private practice. Dr. Nick from the Simpsons would be reimbursed as well as the greatest doctor in all the land, if they both owned their own clinic, if you have a single payer. Single payer means just that. Single payer.
I'm sure I'd be paid very well, and I'm not that special anyway, I wan't talking about myself at all.
>>58769235
Yes, our healthcare is absolutely broken and fucked up. No doubt about it. At my work, cutting costs and finances have SEVERAL TIMES changed our treatment plan, even if a better one was available.
IE: GI infection called H pylori. To infuse in the hospital the 4 drugs they need would run the costs up to the tens of thousands. By giving a different antibiotic over 3 days instead of 7, then discharging on oral meds to pick up at the pharmacy, we free the bed, raise our 'discharge rate', and save tens of thousands. But the cure rate falls from 65% to about 40%, even IF they take ALL four meds (two of which are four times a day) as directed. The infection will stay, and they'll just be readmitted in a few weeks.
It's disgusting. 'Re-admission' rates are starting to become the most important factor. Curing a guy, and ACTUALLY curing him/her, so they don't come back.
>>58770177
remember that time your country banned math aka encryption?
>>58770218
i was just pointing it out that it actually is in our constitution to have post offices.
it's a service specifically listed as something congress should provide.
it doesn't even say it HAS to provide them, just implies it should and can.
police aren't mentioned at all, on the other hand. only that they can establish lower courts.
>>58770515
>cultural continuity
that's a funny way of saying how you've thrown all your traditions into the trash, to the point that world war 2 veterans wish they had never bothered to save the country.
>>58770556
Why would I try to make you do anything?
>>58770409
>They are moral and ethical principles.
Why doesnt this apply to the idea of free healthcare for all? Why is that only a political concept?
>>58770647
>And they're wrong
Which is why I posted they were wrong, you and I think it is obvious, but they don't
>>58770413
Do you have consumer rights? Are you being a pedantic little bitch just so you don't have to admit Rand Paul said something completely retarded?
>>58770580
>>58770582
Big talk, little man. What are you going to do when Germany makes you take them?
>>58770147
to be honest, its not that bad, most of the 2nd generation immigrents, are a part of the work force with high educations, the amout of shit faces who dont do shit are equal in the terms of whit and mudskin/niggers
>>58770588
>then why do you give a shit what either of these guys are saying?
Because advocating for positive rights is the height of moral and intellectual cancer, and I'm going to shit on anyone who tries to support the notion whenever and wherever I encounter them.
>>58770487
Yeah I get what you're saying. Just aggravating reading this whole thread and only a handful of people getting Rand's entire point
>>58770543
Haha untrue ad hominem deflection.
Fucking grow a pair.
>>58770715
>Pedantic
I'm sorry you are too retarded to understand what Rand said. Whining about pedantics doesn't change anything.
>>58770703
You know I'd agree with you on that part if our nation(s) were homogeneous. But since I don't consider shitskins human I don't really feel a moral obligation to pay for their healthcare :^)
>>58770443
If healthcare is legally a right, then yes doctors must be enslaved if there is ever a shortage. If not, then it is not a right. End of story. Liberals need to stop using words wrongly to promote their stupid agendas.
>>58770387
You will always have people and companies trying to get you to pay more or whatever it may be so that if profits them, it's up to you as a customer to not fall for that.
To say that all private medical institutions are only after your money and nothing else is bizarre.
You obviously do research before you seek help, as with anything else, I'm sure many places even have free advice to give you if you call them.
>>58770506
But the public as a whole isn't better off by a government stealing large amount of your wealth only to give it to others who doesn't deserve it nor did they have anything to do with creating that wealth.
Taxes doesn't mean the public is better off since tax money is rarely spent efficiently, the public would be better off with lower taxes since they would have more freedom to do what they please with their wealth rather than being forced to give up a huge chunk of it based on empty promises.
Good lives in the north? I disagree, and the prosperity we've seen is not due to taxes, if anything the taxes removes us from prospering even more.
>>58770589
>this "parasite" in the economy has pushed and lobbied that government services be underfunded, so they're ineffective.
>so that then they can push a campaign to privatize these services (auctioning them off to for-profit entities).
>>58766222
When you become employed by a national healthcare system, you have to make a pledge, sign an oath. This is no muck about job, its serious business. Part of your oath is pledging to provide care entailed in your job description whenever it is asked of you (within your legal working limits).
If you fail to abide to this oath, police do not break down your door and force you into slavery like Rand suggests. You will just be fired. If you refuse to provide this level of care in the first place then you wont get the job.
If there aren't enough doctors in the USA willing to abide by this new oath, then you can bet your bottom dollar there are thousands waiting in another country to swoop in and take your job. This is exactly what has happened in the UK.
>>58770796
>ad hominem
>>58770659
Remember that time your country banned kinder eggs.
Remember that time neither of these things had anything to do with the issue at hand?
Why can't you even debate?
>>58770114
do you actually think that everybody being allowed to own guns is the same as government mandated healthcare plans for poor people payed by tax payers?
am I supposed to #feelthebern or something?
>>58770865
>If there aren't enough doctors in the USA willing to abide by this new oath, then you can bet your bottom dollar there are thousands waiting in another country to swoop in and take your job. This is exactly what has happened in the UK.
So... what you're saying is, the quality of healthcare in your country plummeted by importing third world educated doctors?
>>58770753
That's my point about immigration.
Socialized systems cannot sustain increasingly large volumes of lumps of shit. No matter how many higher class people come, ya know?
As long as there's someone willing to pay for someone else's ride, it pays off. Because they expect if they were in that situation, they'd get it back.
But people see more and more in increasingly culturally diverse societies, people do not have your best interests in mind when they opt to buy a massive tv and get fat because 'the state' will pay for it. As if the state is not a collection of citizens paying into the safety net.
>>58768459
It's the declaration of independence moron, not the constitution. It's a fucking propaganda document listing their reasons for supporting the revolution and a pledge by the signers to fight against the listed tyrannies; it's not a legal document like the constitution.
>>58770487
>however I think "healthcare as a right" is more a rhetorical tactic.
That's the problem. The left likes to misuse words to confuse people. Telling everyone they have a right to shit they don't deserve is just an attempt to brainwash people into asking for bigger government.
>>58770777
You strike me as a coward who is more than willing to live in a system he loathes because he is to too afraid to actually leave the safety of it or too much of a chickenshit to actually take actions against the state or it's supporters
Keep feeling good making your positive rights arguments because its all you will ever do. All talk no action. Typical ancap.
>>58770589
We had plenty of money as well. During the good years the thing just grew and grew. Now when the economy isn't doing so good the system shows it's inflexibility.
>>58770691
The country has problems. If you want to start a thread about that we could discuss it there.
If you're just throwing insults because you can't debate, that's fine too.
>>58770865
Huh, no wonder people die on waiting lists because there aren't enough surgeons.
Must be great getting all those third world "doctors," though.
Hey, actually, that gives me a great idea! I'm going to bribe a Nigerian "University" to sell me a diploma, and go to work in Britain as a GP. What could go wrong?
>>58770114
Either they force the doctors or they force someone else to pay for it. Either way you are enslaving one person to provide a service to someone else.
>>58770819
>To say that all private medical institutions are only after your money and nothing else is bizarre.
They do. Not everybody is a healthcare expert. Some people dont know what the best course of action is to deal with their symptom, especially old people, and they are completely vulnerable to extortion. Furthermore, private healthcare in the UK is such a niche market that the firms can get away with stupid high prices. The consultation will be expensive from the very get go, and all of the options they will provide you with will be expensive, and the doctor will always encourage you to take out the absolute most expensive option because this usually involves the most comprehensive diagnosis, even if it isn't necessary. However with the issue of healthcare the consumer isn't always in the position to know what is best, and cannot accurately determine what level of care they should opt for.
>>58770889
You're right. It's more like whataboutery.
>>58771019
Actually, impeaching your assertions isn't just great rhetoric, it's great logic, too. If you want to be insulted by the state of affairs your people brought about, that's fine, but you really shouldn't blame me for it.
>>58770991
>take actions against the state or it's supporters
I'm a Christian pacifist. What exactly do you want me to do that I don't already do, which is speak about immorality of it all to the sinners who propagate it?
Statists wouldn't know anything about moral principle though.
>>58770865
> like Rand suggests
But Anon, that is not what Rand is suggesting
>>58766222
Every "right" protected by the government implies violence. There is no rule of law without the implied threat of violence. If the opposite were true, we would not need a government.
>>58771078
As I said, it's quite easy for someone to get advice from multiple doctors before you make a decision on what to do. Heck, you could probably get most of it from the internet nowadays.
You don't go to one guy and then do what he says, especially if it's a complex matter where very few people know what to do. That's outright stupidity which should be punished and not rewarded, if anything.
>>58771078
I think I would rather always be offered the most expensive option the the least expensive. Just sayin'.
>>58770927
This is precisely what has happened.
>>58771046
Believe me I am no advocate of this system.
>>58770455
shit son.
first of the two common thing about those two services is that, most of them are necessery to live a "western life" which instate gives these companys to some degree a monopoly, to chose the rates upon which they want to sell their product, government approvel might be expensive as fuck, i think most of us would agree that we want them, to make sure we dont go back to a 19th century state, were people get used as fucking geuinpigs to test shit on, but in principle, if the goverment owns these instetutions, they can focuse 100% of service, instead of spending time makeing sure it makes profits, people dont lose a shit ton of money to get treated for simple shit, and you motivate more people to get an education and become productive.
>>58771121
If you are a pacifist then you have already submitted under the force of the state voluntary.
Ancaps wouldn't know anything about moral consistency though.
>>58771084
Not really. I was making the point that the concept of "rights" in your country is completely fucked and posting some NHS paragraph about rights is meaningless.It proves absolutely nothing by itself.
Now if you want to make a case as to WHY it should be a right, go for it.
>>58771205
A right to free speech does not imply anyone has to listen or provide you with a loudspeaker, it just implies no one can stop you from speaking. Yes there is violence involved if you violate someone's rights, because you do not have a right to violate someone else's rights. I don't know why you idiots don't understand this concept, for fucks sakes go read up on positive-negative rights. Anyone who knows anything about the subject will tell you Bernie is a fucking idiot for suggesting positive rights are an actual thing that can exist.
>>58770725
they aint, they are haveing trouble keeping people in the EU as it is. and you know aswell as i, that they aint gonna put sactions on another eu nation or use force, because in the long run that will fuck them up
>>58771274
>then you have already submitted
noun: submission
1.the action or fact of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.
Pretty sure I don't do that.
Statists wouldn't know anything about moral consistency though.
>>58771272
You're reading too much into the motives of doctors/educators.
>government agrees to pay you whatever you require
>insurance divorces the client from the costs because they'll pay it as a pool of clients
>nothing is checking your price
>you can set higher prices whenever you like
And it's about as deep as that. You CAN charge however much you like, so you do charge however much you like.
>>58771207
>As I said, it's quite easy for someone to get advice from multiple doctors before you make a decision on what to do.
Every single consultation with a private healthcare firm will cos you hundreds of pounds. It isn't easy unless you are rich and have money to burn. For those of us less fortunate we are forced to gamble our health with our money every time we feel a lump or a pain. This system is not ideal and i'm sure there is a better alternative.
>>58771224
Of course but sometimes feeling a pain in your abdomen just requires a quick blood test for intant reliable diagnosis, however I think you will find many private firms in the UK will try and persuade you to take out far more expensive options even though it is not necessary, and for the people who do not know any better (old people etc) this is a very uncomfortable situation. They may feel they have to spend their life saving to be on the safe side. It can just be a waste.
>>58771272
In a free market these companies would compete with each other, the best possible healthcare for the lowest possible price.
In the current government subsidized market, these companies, especially the insurers make serious money because the government guarantees payments so they can jack up the prices all they want since the government will always pay for it.
I'm not saying we don't need tests and approvals for new drugs, I'm saying the current system is very ineffective, both economically and medically.
All these drugs that exists for you to buy, they're all private. The state didn't pay for them, they didn't research them, they didn't create them, private companies did. They're free to charge as much as they like for their products, as is any other company, that doesn't mean it would do any good.
McDonalds could easily decide that from tomorrow and onwards, their cheapest burger is now $50, wow, amazing, all that profit they will make.. if only people bought that $50 burger.
Right now a lot of people are losing tons of wealth every year, wealth that the government takes and spends on others that doesn't have a right to it, in the name of whatever "right" they say it is.
>>58771415
>1.the action or fact of accepting or yielding to a superior force
you have by definition yielded to a superior force by living in the United States, you can make up all the justifications you want but by virtue of living in the US you have yielded to the authority of the state.
Ancaps wouldn't know anything about verbal consistency though.
>>58771469
As opposed to the NHS that you probably have spent more on throughout your lifetime?
>>58770819
okay then, tell me a system, that would work better in the north? a system like the us?
our taxes have created alot of high paying jobs, creating even more jobs in the privet sector, and keeping the the level of poor people in our nations very low, which means generally we have a big middel classe that spænds alot of money, giveing life to the whole system, the problem with a capitalist system in the north now, is that the cykle will be broken, and our economies will get fucked.
>>58771380
I know as well as you that your politicians are just as hopelessly corrupt as everyone else's, and infested with the brain disease that is leftism. They will use their dominance over the EU to compel you politically, lest you be labeled racist bigots. Your craven leaders will cave. A triumphalist mosque will be built in Copenhagen on the foundations of the Krudttonden cultural center.
Also, you should stop using the word "ain't." Not only does it mark you as low class, but you don't seem to understand when you should use it.
>>58771578
>you have by definition yielded to a superior force by living
So the baby born in the next 4 seconds "by definition accepts and yields to the superior force of whatever state happens to claim dominion over the region that child is born in"?
STATIST LOGIC AT ITS FINEST SENPAITACHI!
>>58771564
>In a free market these companies would compete with each other, the best possible healthcare for the lowest possible price.
Ideally. Or you will end up with a tycoon dominated market like the video games industry where two or three companies like EA, Activision & Ubisoft rape everybodies wallets because they've eaten up the competition. I highly doubt that healthy competition would last in such a massive high end market like medicare. This isn't like high street hair dresser chains or Chinese restaurants competing with each other.
>>58771415
>Pretty sure I don't do that.
yes you do
you yield to force by not applying it yourself
a fulcrum weighted on one end can only be balanced by weight on the other, pacifism isn't a neutral position it is a negative one.
>>58771633
for the average earner, the NHS tax burden comes to about £1000 per year, which seems rather reasonable to me, that is about the same amount that I spend on maintaining my car.
>>58770941
they can, it just depends on the method of how you chose to implimet it, for an exsample, lets say your a cunt who dont feel like working, and just want to live off the state, well the only way you can live of the state aka wellfare checks is by working 37 hours a week getting only enough money to rent a small room, and barely enough for food, the bascis to survive, so must of the end finding jobs anyways
>>58769148
About $1000-$1100. It's taken from my paycheck before taxes. Granted, it covers my spouse as well.
>>58771786
big difference between an infant and a rational adult who understands the system he is in, yet does not leave.
you are the one who has an issue with the state, not me, and by staying with the ability to leave you are being complicit in supporting the state
:^)
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/W3h5n9h.jpg "latest[1]")
