which one is right?
/honestview/ here
there should be some sort of healthcare safety net for those who are just fucked. it should be free healthcare for those who work or have worked for 5+ years and are under 35 if you are over 35 and havn't worked over 5+ years you are either rich or fucked anyways. special exceptions should be handled by committees(?)
Libertarians are fucking idiots.
Bernie Sanders is right. That's the thing about National Socialism though; You first establish a national identity (e.g. aryan, citizen, cat owner etc.), then you provide for them.
>>58766666
with whose money? you can't provide for someone without enslaving / stealing from those that have.
Is Rand Paul REALLY that fucking retarded?
Both aren't correct.
I like both of them a lot but Paul is being pretty irrational here. Being paid for a public service isn't slavery.
Free universal health care is shit, but I don't think it should be to the point in America where it costs 50 thousand dollars to get a band-aid on your knee i you go to the hospital.
>>58766222
Paul is technically correct, though I think he walks down the wrong avenue in making his point.
Healthcare is a right, in that you can bandage and dress your own wounds.
>>58766666
Nothing is free you fucking child.
Everything Bernie proposes can only be achieved by heavy taxation.
>>58766870
>but I don't think it should be to the point in America where it costs 50 thousand dollars to get a band-aid on your knee i you go to the hospital.
realistically this only happens to people who think they're being smart and saving money by not paying for healthcare
poor people get tax-funded healthcare already, which was widely expanded under obamacare
>>58766666
>>58766222
You should have the basic right for bad healthcare. You shouldn't have a basic right for good healthcare though, that costs money.
It's the way we have it over here. The shit-tier people like me have to use the public system, but the people who want good healthcare will use private doctors.
>>58766222
what rand said makes no fucking sense
>>58766761
Why do you think we say He isn't his father's son.
>>58766846
He is not being irration,doctors in america are rich,here in my country they earn as much as blue collar workers all thanks to universal healthcare.
Holy fucking please OP tell me you wrote that. Rand Paul isn't that retard? OP tell me
>>58766970
No, you shithead, the Band-Aid still COSTS 50k, but if you have insurance, they will cover most of the cost.
There's no fucking reason for it to cost that much in the first place.
>>58766666
quads confirm libertarians for fucking idiots
what a beautiful day
>>58766761
>>58766846
I get what Paul is trying to say, but he phrased it really poorly. When healthcare is nationalized, you're working at the whim of the government. You lose control over things that were supposed to be perks for going to medical school for an unholy amount of time.
>>58766222
Sanders is in the right here.
I mean, we don't consider the police to be enslaved when they have to investigate crimes in every neighbourhood.
Libertarian hyper-individualism is as always foudned on sheer autism.
>>58766870
>Free universal health care is shit, but I don't think it should be to the point in America where it costs 50 thousand dollars to get a band-aid on your knee i you go to the hospital.
You can thank the government for that.
With the exception of maybe the banking/financial industry, healthcare is the most regulated industry in the United States.
>>58766846
>Being paid for a public service isn't slavery.
Wat.
>>58767017
so you like Ron Paul but don't agree with Rand on this? that's fucking hilarious.
>>58766995
>You should have the basic right for bad healthcare. You shouldn't have a basic right for good healthcare though, that costs money.
/thread
>>58766916
And if women build the entire fucking world they could have more of say in how to run it.
>>58767087
>I mean, we don't consider the police to be enslaved when they have to investigate crimes in every neighbourhood.
The police have no duty to help you in America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
>>58767021
In a nation that isn't as poor as Argentina we won't have a problem paying doctors way more than blue collar workers.
>>58767094
It's not. By default getting paid for a job isn't slavery.
>>58766222
Doctor Paul is closer to right, but the reality is that health care is a commodity. There is no natural right to a commodity, even if it's food, or water. Instead, you have a right to own property, which may include commodities.
>>58767040
>literally can't count to 5
>>58767040
>quads
Look again
>>58766666
>>58766222
>there are people on /pol/ on this day at the end of the current year who actually believe that pic related represents the best healthcare system in the world
People who do not support a public option in healthcare that is free at the point of entry are morons of the first order. Period.
>>58767039
>but if you have insurance, they will cover most of the cost.
That's right! You'll only be $5000 out of pocket! Isn't that so much better than paying nothing?
>>58766666
Q-quints checked
>>58767040
Singles confirm you cant fucking count to 5 or recognize that nothing in this world is free.
>>58767087
So it's just a mystery why police in Denmark investigate crimes more thoroughly in rich neighborhoods than in poor ones?
Both spewing idiocy, but this is the dumbest R talking.
>>58767168
That still means they will earn a lot less.
And if you keep up the heavy taxations your economy will become shit tier like Europe's
>>58766882
No one said it was "free" in the sense that it costs nothing. Literally everyone understands that it has to come from taxes. I don't understand why you retards think pointing this out is some kind of argument.
>>58766222
>that the system can offer
That's the problem right there. System. If you want to be a doctor and help people and make a living at it, good. If you want to be a fat, self induced diabetic, luck you there's a doctor that wants to help. You don't need to go getting the government involved in shit that's not their business to start with. If doctors refuse assistance, or make it unreasonably expensive, that's a societal problem, not a policy problem.
>>58766222
Why don't we just put price ceilings on Hospital bills.
Force hospitals to charge exactly what the material cost were for the operations.
>>58767282
>or recognize that nothing in this world is free.
Except in first world (and many shit-tier countries too) healthcare is free at the point of use. It should be here too.
>>58767168
A Swedish general practitioner makes 1/3rd as much as one with the same education and training in USA, before taxes, with about half of the Swedish GP's income going to taxes.
source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2670288/
>>58766222
Neither. Free healthcare without strings attached cause the growth of extremely r-selected shitliberals who ruin everything with pansy ass, poz bullshit - just look at Canada.
The only way anyone should get "free" healthcare is the way they do now - by joining the armed forces. Lolbertarians don't realize that they don't have a right to be protected by others.
They pretend they will fight individually if the country is invaded, but we know that when the shit hits the fan they'll run to the center of the country and let everyone else do the fighting for them.
>>58767334
>Argentina
>calling any other country's economy shit
When's your next default scheduled?
>>58767344
If you understand you need to tax people to get this then why do you support it?
Cuck fetish? savior complex?
>>58766916
that's true; women would bitch amnd moan about why they should have the babies, because they would now be responsoble for literally nothing at all
>>58767315
were did you come up with that bs?
>>58767195
>It's not. By default getting paid for a job isn't slavery.
For one, I don't think you even remotely comprehended his point. At all.
Two, yes you can very much be a slave even if you are payed. Slavery is when you are forced to labor for another person against your will, full stop. If I throw you in chains, put you in my basement making widgets for 20 hours a day, and threaten to beat/kill you if you resist, I have enslaved you. Me giving you a few pennies does not magically change this.
>>58767247
I agree. Paying for shit is stupid.
FREE SHIT FOR PRESIDENT 2016
>>58767119
underrated post
>>58767444
Why don't you learn from our mistakes instead of electing the only candidate that behaves like an Argentinian populist?
>>58766995
yea like a field medic during world war 2 style health care versus a field medic during vietnma style healthcare
r-r-right finland?
>>58766222
>my goodness
Fucking rand
>>58766222
I'd love to see these two go at it some more, they are essentially opposites in terms of political and economic philosophy.
>>58766666
Nice try satan.
Rand Paul fundamentally misunderstands (or strategically mischaracterizes) the health care debate. Nobody is suggesting that doctors work for free. What people are suggesting is that every person's paycheck have some nominal amount deducted to pay for health insurance for every American.
Basically, that there is one insurance company, and it's the government, and everyone has a policy with them whether they like it or not. Now if an unemployed person needs to go to the doctor, the doctor isn't treating him for free. It's as if he's treating a patient with health insurance. The insurer (in this case the government) pays the doctor for services rendered.
The debate isn't over whether doctor should work for free or not. That's retarded. Nobody should be forced to work for free and nobody is seriously suggesting this. The debate is whether the government should be responsible for taking an insurance premium out everyone's paycheck and providing insurance for everyone (even those who don't work) in exchange.
>>58766222
You have the right to attempt to not die.
You can attempt it as best you can. That does not mean you will succeed.
Hey thanks Bernie. I've been doing drugs and banging dudes for the last 10 years. You can treat my Hep-C now? That's great. The course of therapy costs $70k? Really? Whatever, it's my right. A lifetime of HIV meds is hundreds of thousands of dollars? OK cool, someone will cover that right? Great. And I can't work with all these health conditions now. I can get food stamps, right? OK. Nice.
>>58767359
How do you determine the price of labor?
>>58767513
Slavery is being owned as the property of someone else.
Being an EMT, firefighter or cop is not considered slavery. They are public servants paid to work for the public.
>>58767519
>can't argue
>CHECK OUT MY STRAWMAN ARGUMENT XDDDDD
Libertarians, everyone.
How is public money going to the police force different than public money going to healthcare?
Bernie doesn't know what a right is, and Rand doesn't know that Bernie doesn't know that.
Both are being stupid here. Rand should have just attacked subsidized healthcare, which is what Bernie meant.
>>58766222
Healthcare is not a right, it's a service. A right is something that can be guaranteed, like the right to bear arms. The government won't provide you a gun, but it can guarantee you your right to bear arms - all it has to do is not take them from you. Healthcare, on the other hand, is like claiming that free pizza delivery is a right for every American. It can't be a right because it can't be guaranteed - what happens if there is a snowstorm? Same thing applies for healthcare.
>>58766739
Easy just redirect some funds from defense spending. The US can certainly spare it. Instead of using the money to kill innocent people half way around the world maybe the US can actually spend some of its money on bettering its own people.
>>58767119
bingo
>>58767687
Doctors are not civil servants.
>>58766222
>>58766222
When will people get it through their minds that right != free shit
>>58766222
Healcare is a need.
Needs and rights are not synonymous and interchangable.
You have a right to bear arms
You have a right to freedom of press etc
You need food however you are not entitled to it
You need healthcare however youbare not entitled to it
However it is the goverments duty to help provide for the needs of a nation. A goverment should help its citizens get the jcare they require, but a sigle payer system foolish.
>>58767450
>If you understand you need to tax people to get this then why do you support it?
with this logic a country shouldn't have a military because only cucks will want to be forced to contribute to the national defense
>>58766222
paul is right, though his phrasing wasn't very good..no one has a universal right to free healthcare. The burden free healthcare on the taxpaying segment of society is too great to justify its cost.
>>58766222
Rand isn't, if that helps. He is using the definition of a strawman and appeal to emotion.
No one is being forced to do anything. Doctors are still getting their whistles wet, your healthcare doesn't change that. Nothing Rand says is actually happening or going to happen.
>>58766995
This is correct. Universal healthcare means, for one, that you CANNOT set your own price point. The government does. A physician should be able to decide his own worth, they are NOT created equal, not even close. The distance from an average to a great doctor is ENORMOUS.
Source: I'm a slightly above average doctor. There are some idiots below me, and I work with some guys that are so much smarter than me and know more than I'll ever know. They absolutely deserve more than me.
A top tier cardiothoractic surgeon with a 98% positive outcome rate is worth 100x more than one with an 88% rate (which is about average).
A Universal healthcare system makes it very difficult to have the pricing where it works out appropriately.
but lets take Denmark for an example.
health care is 100% free, and its pretty good for being a universel one. sometimes it can be abit slow, but most people who have money can go to a private hospital and pay cash, so they dont have to deal with the wait time. its a pretty good system, and the docs do get paid alot of cash
>>58766666
Pents checked
>>58767450
Because I think it should be a human right. Because all my life I've lived in prosperous 1st world countries that already have this system and because of it I've never felt stressed out about my health problems costing me my savings because of some bullshit the insurance jews trumped up.
It's cute that the manlet actually thinks he's a doctor
this works for guns as well right?
>>58766222
Trips checked
>>58767703
It's not. The people who think it's an entirely different concept have been conditioned to do so by people who benefit off of your essential services being a for-profit enterprise.
>>58766222
Rand.
Because You have the right to Life under the Constitution
Not the right to a long life, not the right to a free long life, and not the right to a free long life justified by "I believe"
But the right to Life that cannot be taken away from you by the government.
>>58767839
Constitution doesn't mention healthcare.
forcing a healthy person to subsidize sick people (read: nonwhites) is an abuse of government power
it doesn't matter how you explain it
>>58766222
it doesn't have to be a right for it to be provided by the government.
the argument that it's a "right", that the government MUST provide it, is what rand says. coercing health care providers to perform.
that the courts can come in and say that the system must remain, or that so and so's sex change is covered under the 14th amendment.
that's what it being a "right" implies.
that's the problem with positive rights.
it can be a service provided by the government without being a right, though.
>>58767817
>Human rights
You disgust me
>>58767768
So we want the government to handle everything, because they're so efficient? Once they've tackled healthcare, how about food next? Why not shelter? Why don't we all just have government housing?
>>58767875
The fuck are you trying to say? You first generation?
>>58767890
that has nothing to do with what i asked
>>58766666
>a finite resource is a right for everyone
this will surely work!
>>58767736
>redirect funds from defense spending
The US has a very bare bones defense budget at the moment. You fucking liberals always shit the bed and suggest lowering the defense budget. How do you lower something that is already considered to be the bare minimum?
Healthcare is a privilege not a right.
>>58766222
What the fuck that's not at all what it means, we live in 1st world countries fucking act like it or go back to somalia
>>58766222
>implying consent to "conscription" and submission to altruism are not conditions to receive medical education and training
>>58766222
slavery my ass. doctors make fucking amazing money. In Canada they push through as many fucking appointments as they can. 15 minutes is 100 bucks and sometimes you don't even get seen for what you originally went in for and you cannot discuss more than one problem per appointment.
>>58767047
It just sounds like quite the exaggeration, though.
>>58766666
CHEM EM AND THEN SOME
>>58767952
You asked
>this works for guns as well right?
The constitution does not mention healthcare.
>>58767983
This is what we have to put up with anon. It's nauseating.
>>58767778
>I feed, house and clothe my niggers
>therefore it's not slavery
If I have an inalienable right to health and you are a physician, you do not have the right to refuse me service. Compensation is irrelevant, the point is that you would be made under an implied threat of force to do something, with no say in the matter
>>58766222
God, he is such a pussy. But every once in a while Rand Paul says something that is brilliant.
>>58767940
>So we want the government to handle everything, because they're so efficient? Once they've tackled healthcare, how about food next? Why not shelter? Why don't we all just have government housing?
No but its telling you evaded my point entirely. Is taxation ok in certain situations such as national defense? even very libertarian people think that is one of the only justifiable roles of taxation for national defense. If that is true then we are just arguing degrees of what form of taxation is justifiable then and not whether taxation as a concept is justified.
>>58766222
>HURR IF WE HAVE FREE GOVERNMENT MAINTAINED ROADS, YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING IT'S OKAY TO ENSLAVE CONSTRUCTION WORKERS WHENEVER WE NEED A POTHOLE FILLED.
Holy shit, Rand...
>>58766916
if men were able to get pregnant, they'd also deal with it with a quart of wiskey, a hammer, and a night alone in the garage.
same way we take care of our own kidney stones and wisdom teeth.
>>58767736
>innocent
>>58767875
>Retard libertarians actually believe this
>life not being the first word followed by "liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness"
Top fucking kek
>>58767039
I wonder why Healthcare costs are so fucked. Hmmm. Maybe because we have a system that doesn't ensure everyone and the high costs reflect what hospitals have to charge to stay open in such a fucked up system.
>>58766916
he knows how to play his base
>>58767740
Everyone is a civil servant with socialism
:^)
>>58767780
Sounds pretty based.
>>58767983
>>58768061
In the United States, doctors are not civil servants, dipshits.
That is not the case in other countries. Our medical system is not controlled by the government. A doctor is not paid through your tax dollars. A cop and teacher are.
If you have a problem with that, vote to have teachers employed by the state. Right now, that's not the fucking case.
Holy fucking shit.
>>58766222
The one who doesn't advocate for slavery.
>>58767965
>The US has a very bare bones defense budget at the moment.
God Australian shitposters are out of control.
>>58768048
so you are retarded, alright then
>>58766916
If women could produce children asexually, then there wouldn't be a discussion about their right to choose.
>>58766916
>>58766222
What Rand said sounds exactly like what Stefan Molyneux would say in one of his videos. Top kek.
Rand Paul is right.
>>58768160
>The Declaration of Independence is the supreme law of the land
>>58766222
Rand is correct, he takes it to the logical conclusion. It bothers people when they think too hard about it though.
>>58767634
Jesus Christ, I don't know if people are being intentionally disingenuous or if their comprehension skills are so poor they can't follow basic arguments.
The issue has nothing to do with
>pay
and Rand (neither in this quote or elsewhere) does not make this argument, nor do other libertarians.
The issue is one of
>force
because if the government declares that all people have a "right to healthcare", then they obviously have the right to obtain said healthcare. Now "healthcare" does not fall from the sky nor grow from trees. So where does "healthcare" come from? Oh right, "healthcare" is (barring the various medical supplies) fundamentally a service provided by people (i.e. doctors) performing labor.
Therefore, to say you have a "right to healthcare" INTRINSICALLY means you also believe in a right to
>force
the people to provide you with this healthcare. And again, the word we have for forcing someone else to labor on your behalf is "slavery".
>>58768196
You know or Doctors are public servants in almost every other rich and developed nation on Earth.
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humility and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
Written in 1964 by Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University, and used in many medical schools today.
>>58767965
it's very much not the bare minimum, it's loaded with graff and bullshit.
granted, it'd take a decade to actually wind things down, but we aren't in that process or in the process of cracking down on the corruption.
the only thing bare-bones about current defense budgeting is enlisted personnel.
>mfw completely free appointments with doctors whenever I have a problem
>mfw free hospital visits and ambulance rides
>mfw even all the goddamn medication the doctor prescribes is free to me
Goddamn I love the Scottish NHS. And I'm not even from around here.
>>58766879
If you watch the clip Bernie actually starts off his question with "philosophically speaking". Rand Paul gives him an appropriately philosophical answer. Now liberals take Rand out of context.
>>58768231
I can't tell you the sky is blue any other way, faggot. Look the fuck up and understand that there is no hidden message. The sky is blue and you either accept that, or you jerk yourself off saying it's sometimes black. If you actually gave a fuck about having a conversation you'd listen to what people are telling you.
>>58768220
No shit chief. I'm advocating that they should be public servants. Like every almost other developed nation on planet Earth.
>>58767965
>The US has a very bare bones defense budget at the moment
as a defense contractor lmao you could not be more wrong
You don't have the right to somebody else's time.
>>58768173
Or maybe it's just textbook price gouging.
>>58768243
can't tell if tumblr being srs or australia shitposting.
>>58767736
>Easy just redirect some funds from defense spending.
Our defense budget in 2015 was $560 bn USD. If we slashes it to zero and put all of it towards healthcare, that would be $1,761 per citizen — slightly above what Mexico spends per capita on healthcare.
Why should someone who eats healthy / exercises / doesn't smoke etc. be forced to pay the same amount for healthcare as someone who is obese, or a drug addict, or a chain smoker?
If you choose to give birth to a mentally or physically handicapped child based on your religious belief, should other, sane people, have to pay for it?
>>58768160
>life not being the first word followed by "liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness
>retards think the DOI is the constitution
thank god the founding fathers gave us a republic with electoral college and not a direct democracy eh?
>>58768428
The near autistic aversion to the idea of public service on this board never ceases to amaze me.
>>58766666
How can anyones time and effort be a right for someone else?
Doctors are humans, not inanimate objects, how is having their time and skills a RIGHT for everyone else?
>>58767965
>bare minimum
>spent over a TRILLION dollars developing a new fighter jet with the following ratings;
Speed: B
Armor: C
Air to air combat: B
Air to ground: B
Capacity: B
Head to head with:
F-22 raptor in Air to Air: Lose
Russian Mig in Air to Air: Lose
Air to ground compared to A-10 Warthog: Lose
Bombing capabilities compared to modern bomber: Lose
>>58766222
trips.
They're both wrong, though Paul more so.
Bernie is wrong because you can't give every person the best possible health care. You absolutely have to ration healthcare, the system couldn't bear the cost of giving every american a yearly full body scan or some such.
Paul is wrong because there are dozens of countries with universal health care and what he is describing has never happened in any of them.
>>58767503
Did you forget what board you're posting on?
>>58768402
I'm unconvinced this is a good thing.
All the best medical colleges are in the states as well as 90% of new developments in medicine.
And you should really understand that everything the government does takes forever and costs more than it should for lesser quality. Because it's a top-down solution to a bottom up problem.
>>58768442
>If you choose to give birth to a mentally or physically handicapped child based on your religious belief, should other, sane people, have to pay for it?
unless you institute a national eugenics program :^)
>>58768502
Police ar ehumans not inanimate objects, how is haveing their time and skills a RIGHT for everyone else?
EMT's are humans, not inanimate objects, how is having their time and skills a RIGHT for everyone else?
Firefighters are humans, not inanimate objects, how is having their time and skills a RIGHT for everyone else?
>>58766222
"Healthcare" is not a right.
America doesn't have "positive" rights aside from providing you legal counsel.
If healthcare was a right in the same since as the right to free speech, Rand's idea of conscription would be correct.
What liberals want is an entitlement healthcare system: medicare for everyone. Doctors would get paid a shit ton less.
Further, just because something is nice and used by nearly everyone, doesn't make it a right.
Healthcare as we know it is a new development. The drugs, technology, and operations we can perform now are amazing. Back in the 18th century, we didn't have all of that.
Other things that aren't rights but everyone has:
Education (as held by the Supreme Court)
Food
Housing
Clothing
Cars
Computers
Cell Phones
And so on. Most of us need all of this in our life, but they're not "rights." And the government shouldn't provide it.
>>58768495
What's the difference between "public service" and slavery, exactly, if the former is also mandatory cocksucker?
>>58766824
You're an idiot. This is what regulation and administrators are for...pls go.
>>58768567
good point, so have you guys gotten snow jet?
>>58767736
>defense spending
Every fucking time.
The military is one of the few things that the federal government SHOULD be paying for, and you retards want to scrap it.
Do you know why the USA is the economic powerhouse it is? Why we Australians (and a slew of other nations) engage in trade deals that are far more favourable for you than for us? Because your military is so extensive and impressive that you can use it as a bargaining chip when trading with your allies.
But hey, Rodriguez' Liberal Arts degree should be 'free'.
>>58768594
They don't have to help you
>>58768546
Paul was remarking from a philosophical meaning, just because it hasn't happened doesn't make him wrong. If you have a right to be provided healthcare, then if no physician willingly helps you, one would be forced.
>>58768594
none of those are rights
you do not have a right for police to protect you, and they have no duty to protect you
>>58767147
>>58768384
>rand says if something is a right i'm allowed to take it by whatever means i see fit
>i have the right to bear arms
>therefor i'm allowed to acquire my arms however i see fit
you really are fucking retarded
>>58768577
Our country's stats on the average person's healthcare are fucking embarrassing and we rank behind spics and southeast asians in several categories.
>>58766666
You aren't entitled to someone elses work you fucking faggot. What part of that is so hard to understand.
>>58768600
slavery tends to be defined by its non-voluntary nature, its not like you can quit being a slave but you could quit being a physician
>>58768594
Actually the Supreme court has ruled that law enforcement officers are under no obligation to help people :^)
The rest is stupid because thats literally what the job entails for those careers, there are no private firefighters.
>>58766222
Neither of them. Universal Healthcare is a scheme where in you reduce overall costs by averaging out everything that could happen to you and the people who don't get sick take care of the people who lose life's lottery. It's like gambling with your life.
It still bends to MONEY IN = MONEY OUT though, the amount of money you can spend on someone for life extending medication is limited by the proportion of people needing that medication. And further restricted because you should treat mechanical failures of the body before you treat chronic diseases (ie fix broken bones rather than treat cancer)
Now, you can raise MONEY IN so you can get more MONEY OUT, but at some point you're crippling the economy because there's a lot of people who aren't productive enough to pay in to the system and support themselves. (Same reason progressive tax brackets exist).
But like ANY welfare system, it's a pyramid scheme. We can't support giving nice things to everyone, so the people getting those nice things (life saving cancer treatment and the like) have to be the minority of the minority.
>government program
The cut throat system of capitalism is simply better at keeping costs down than a government system would be. I don't have a solution for this problem unfortunately.
tl;dr, the American Economy should be strong enough that we can support universal healthcare, but forcing universal healthcare without burgeoning the economy to support it will fail. Too many leeches right now (because we lost manufacturing to China and Mexico). And we can't forget that the only reason our health care system is good is because of PROFIT MOTIVE, any kind of universalized system needs to integrate into the system in place. You can't demand all doctors get the same pay for the same work, because they all have different qualifications and different situations and that competition is the driving force to improve the system.
Am I cuckoo loo loo in the head?
>>58768442
Further to my last post.
Say you have universal health care and an alcoholic drug addicted woman who already has multiple children with fetal alcohol syndrome comes to your hospital and gives birth to what will just be a million dollar tax burden, do you sterilize her?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/i-didn-t-want-it-done-saskatoon-woman-was-sterilized-against-her-will-1.3324980
>>58768515
we really need to pull a china over that fiasco, and execute not only some generals but also the corporate heads and nationalize the assets of whichever company fucked up and sell them off to competitors.
heads need to roll publicly, and companies need to cease existing wholesale.
the lesson needs to be taught.
>>58768648
yes they do, if you dont live in a 3rd world country, wait i forgot, the US is a 3rd world country.
>>58768648
Yes they do. I know what you're citing and it doesn't mean what you think it means.
>>58768659
Yes they do. The job of the police, firefighters and EMT's is to protect and serve the public.
>>58768692
You're reading that decision wrong. All it says is that no one individual call is more important than another. Their duty is to the public at large, not individuals.
>>58768699
> Her mother was caring for her twin sons and four other children at the time.
>>58768730
>>Yes they do
No, they do not. Your personal opinion does not override the supreme court.
>>58768677
So imagine there are simply not enough physicians to treat everyone, yet everyone nevertheless has a "right" to healthcare. What, exactly, happens then?
>>58767718
Ah, but the governmentcan guarantee you the right to necessary medical services at an affordable rate. All it takes is to pass a law or an amendment. Like the one that says an armed and trained militia is necessary to ensure liberty.
>>58768660
>>58768660
>rand says if something is a right i'm allowed to take it by whatever means i see fit
No, this is Rand pointing out what "positive rights" inherently entail.
As he believes in "negative rights", there's nothing for you to take from others to begin with (labor or otherwise).
>>58767394
>free at the point of use
>free
pick one
>>58768809
>>58768803
I swear to fucking god 90% of the people on this board have no idea what they're talking about.
>>58768665
>rank behind
by what metric?
The only issue people tend to have is the price. And what they think they should be getting for it.
Everyone wants the best of the best, but when the bill arrives they suddenly feel like their lives weren't worth that much.
Look at tit jobs from mexico vs tit jobs from japan. You can get the same operation but you'd willingly pay multiples of what you'd pay in mexico to get it done in japan because they're just so much fucking better at it that it's worth the cost.
>>58768660
All I said is that the constitution does not mention healthcare. THEREFORE it's a false equivalency, faggot. God damn.
>>58768729
k
>>58768730
I think it's pretty clear what it's saying, for the police at least
>>58768660
>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
It protects your right to have weapons, meaning the government cannot take them away. It doesn't guarantee a right to be provided weapons
You have the right to live.
You are not guaranteed to live.
It's that simple.
>>58768803
Two police officers watched a man getting stabbed by a serial killer on the New York subway and did nothing to help him.
But sure, argue semantics all you want.
>>58768865
price per capita, overall satisfaction, infant mortality rate,...
>>58768596
You talk about rights as if they're a fixture in the universe instead of something decided upon by people.
When you say "they aren't rights" what you should be saying is "I don't think they should be rights". And you should be able to defend that position.
>>58766222
none of them. rand went a bit over board with the metaphor, and bernie is a comie kike. its simple, if youre too stupid to make it on your own, you deserve to die. health insurance isnt that fuckin expensive. stop trying to steal oter peoples money just because you dont have any. thats why i hate this piece of shit country
>>58768273
yeah, I would rather condone "slavery" in some philosophically bullshit way than be bankrupted by an infection.
>>58768867
Clearly not.
>>58768900
Were they on the job? Was there another call in progress?
>>58767771
>no one has a universal right to free healthcare
All it takes for that to change is a constitutional amendment.
>>58767247
should have ripped up your social security card, drivers license, and voter card before going to the hospital
nobody to blame but yourself for this one
>>58768924
Are you including abortions in infant mortality? If you'd rather give birth in Mexico than the United States, you're in denial of reality.
The other two points relate to price. So I already addressed that.
>>58768932
thats a pretty good point
>>58768803
>>You're reading that decision wrong. All it says is that no one individual call is more important than another.
Where?
>
A Metropolitan Police Department officer arrived at the scene. In response to the officer's direction, appellant's companion ceased any further efforts to obtain identification information of the assailants. When the officer then failed to get the information, leaving Nichol unable to institute legal action against his assailants, Nichol brought a negligence action against the officer, the Metropolitan Police Department and the District of Columbia.
>In a 4-3 decision, the District of Columbia Court of Appeals affirmed the trial courts' dismissal of the complaints against the District of Columbia and individual members of the Metropolitan Police Department based on the public duty doctrine. The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
> The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
> The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
> The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
> The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
>>58768809
yeah her mother was caring for her FAS kids because she was a junkie, the cbc won't write the truth
>>58768160
thanks for repeating exactly what he just said.
>>58768932
Don't bother man, he's not going to get it. He'll probably tell you that god literally gives him rights.
>>58768978
Yes they were in uniform and on the job. No there wasn't another call in progress, they literally made no attempt to help the man as he fought for his life while they watched from the inside of the conductors room
>>58768173
or maybe its because the government put its fuckin nose where it doesnt belong, and, like everything else they touch, it fucked up
>>58768830
if you are making the implication that they would put physicians into involuntary servitude you are having to make an absurd example to support your claim
"right" is a dumb word to use from a legal standpoint (I agree with Rand there) but you are just taking the opposite putting being a physician in a country with Universal Healthcare as equal to a slave.
Well the one on the right is a retarded straw man, since currency exists, and taxes exist, and the whole debate is whether or not for the government to fund healthcare for all citizens. Nobody would be working for free by any stretch of the imagination.
Basically the real argument is whether or not healthcare should be a service that is provided for taxes collected.
Rand's little foray off into bullshit rhetoric land fails to address the reality of healthcare in the USA: The EMTALA creates defacto universal healthcare albeit in the most expensive way possible as it forces hospitals to admit people to the er if they are in need, regardless of their ability to pay.
So when Bernie is talking about healthcare what he really means is some method of streamlining the process.
Rand is just babbling, basically.
Also, he is not a doctor at all. He created a board to certify himself as an optometrist. That is not the same as being a physician.
He is not currently certified by any board recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties...so he's not even really an optometrist...
He's completely full of shit on this subject, he has nothing to say.
Health care is not free in Canada. Last Year I payed $850 in taxes towards my health care (Ontario). How much do you Yanks pay for insurance?
>>58769055
The only right you have is the right to work toward your own interests. That can never be taken from you by force.
All this other shit is pretty stuff you right on a tin to attract citizens to your park.
>>58766916
We had the right with child support but women took that right away.
>>58766222
It's a service.
>>58769123
How does a right to healthcare work if there's not enough doctors to service everyone?
>>58769012
No they're not including abortion and no the average american cannot afford the best quality of care in the world. That's a myth.
>>58769019
Anon, read what I fucking told you and read their conclusion and tell me how you think I'm wrong.
What I said
>All it says is that no one individual call is more important than another. Their duty is to the public at large, not individuals.
Their conclusion.
>The Court explained that "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
>>58766916
if men had birth control there'd probably never be an unwanted baby in the first place. Check mate.
>>58766222
>free healthcare is slavery
Jesus, get on board with the rest of the Western world and help your people out. I've had surgery for a torn rotator cuff, a sports hernia, and I've had a broken collar bone and countless stitches. Guess how much I've paid?
I'll give you a hint:
It starts with a zero and ends with a zero
>>58769191
>, no specific legal duty exists."
are you actually retarded?
>>58767780
What about the aberrations in the pricing of medical care as it stands now?
There is a reason that a hospital stay will set you back $100,000 and it's not that the hospital provided $100,000 worth of services to you.
The healthcare sector is not a free market at the consumer end
Maybe it is on the physician end with respect to negotiating salaries and such
Hospitals and doctors charge those exorbitant sums of money in anticipation of reaching a settlement with an insurer or medicare or medicaid for pennies on the dollar.
However, for an uninsured person, that price is final.
The system is broken.
Don't say otherwise Doc
>>58769188
>How does a right to healthcare work if there's not enough doctors to service everyone?
like everyone saying this, are you making the implication that physicians would be put into involuntary servitude?
>>58767780
>Universal healthcare means, for one, that you CANNOT set your own price point. The government does.
You do realize that private health services still exist in countries with universal healthcare, right?
That even in the UK with their famous NHS, you can, if you want to, pay a private company $500,000 to treat your cancer.
>>58769191
So a baby is more likely to survive child birth in Mexico than the United States? Please list the countries that beat us on infant mortality. And tell me you'd rather have a child be born in them instead.
>american cannot afford it
No shit. That wasn't my point, cunt.
>>58766666
>>58769229
You don't pay any taxes?
>>58769234
>[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists."
In other words.
The police have an obligation to the public at large not any individual in the public.
>>58769191
What this means is that unless you're in custody they have no legal duty to protect you. Thats it, thats all. Theres no legal obligation for a police officer to help you period, unless they have you in custody.
>>58769265
If it is a right, logically the answer would be yes. However in reality, no, it would not happen because people would never do that, so therefore it is not a right
>>58769105
If you have a "right" to something, then others have an obligation to provide you with that something.
Bernie Sanders believe healthcare is a "right". He's gone on the record saying it probably hundreds of times.
>>58769188
the doctors, instead of spending half an hour examining each patient, instead spend 5 minutes with each patient and tell everyone that aspirin solves everything.
>>58769234
No specific legal duty exists to an individual. Their duty is to the public at large.
>>58766222
National healthcare systems can potentially work in an ideal scenario.
In a prosperous nation with a stable economy and a low unemployment rate, whereby the government makes a healthy suplus, it would not be an issue to subsidise healthcare to those who cannot afford it, as a form of safety net. This was the idea that the UK had in mind when the NHS was created decades ago, when Britain had a steadily growing white British population with high employment rates, low crime rates and a healthy economy.
The USA is a massive nation with huge ghettos, massive amounts of people already dependent on government handouts for nearly every single aspect of their life and most importantly the single largest national debt on Earth. Introducing a national healthcare system whilest in this dier position would be like taking out a loan for a new Porsche when you don't have the money for you next rent payment.
>>58769269
Private health services do exist, but ones ability to pay for them is removed since you now have to pay higher taxes to pay for state healthcare rather than your own private healthcare.
>>58769349
>If you have a "right" to something, then others have an obligation to provide you with that something.
so where are my guns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPmtBg4wPH0
>I'm fine with my taxes funding people to be so fat they are disabled
>>58766222
Stupidest quote i've ever seen attributed to Rand
>>58768675
>what is capitalism
>>58767780
>A Universal healthcare system makes it very difficult to have the pricing where it works out appropriately.
Hw familiar are you with how this works in countries like the Scandinavian ones? I've never, ever read or heard about an MD complain about his salary.
>>58769229
Even HuffPo says canadian healthcare is shit
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/nadeem-esmail/canada-free-health-care_b_3733080.html
>Don't be fooled by claims that health spending isn't high enough or that transfers for health care to the provinces have been insufficient. Canada's health care system is the developed world's most expensive universal-access health care program after adjusting for the age of the population
>And the bill is getting bigger over time. Before inflation, the cost of public health care insurance went up by 53.3 per cent over the last decade. That's more than 1.5 times faster than the cost of shelter (34.2 per cent) and clothing (32.4 per cent), and more than twice as fast as the cost of food (23.4 per cent). It's also nearly 1.5 times faster than the growth in average income over the decade (36.3 per cent).
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bacchus-barua-/health-care-costs-canada_b_6004034.html
>Meanwhile, the average Canadian family of four (two parents, two children) earning $101,724 will pay $11,786.
>>58769188
How does mail work if there's not enough mailman? How do police work if there's not enough policemen? Ect, ect ect.
It's a retarded spin and dodge that has nothing to do with reality, don't be so easily swayed by cheap rhetorical devices, you have been propagandized by a simplistic soundbyte.
>>58769349
>If you have a "right" to something, then others have an obligation to provide you with that something.
Why can't I purchase a MANPADS then? :^)
I always find it funny how other nations think they're more developed than us because they have "free" healthcare even though they actually are paying through a high income tax
>>58768273
Libertarians are so fucking stupid.
The government supplying demand to your service and paying you for it isn't. Fucking. Slavery.
>>58769350
you would make prioritis the paitens, kinda like TRIAGE
>>58766761
His statement is 100% accurate.
If someone has a RIGHT to healthcare. That means doctors are required to provide that healthcare, even if the patient can't afford to pay them. Let's say all doctors went on strike, for whoever reason; if you have a RIGHT to healthcare, then that would imply that the doctors don't have a right to strike, and can be forced, at the point of a gun even, to provide that healthcare to anyone that needs it.
A RIGHT to healthcare does imply that a doctor can be forced to provide healthcare if no other doctors are willing to provide it.
Let's look at it another way. If everyone has a RIGHT to healthcare, and Hitler were dying (I'm going with the Jew meme that Hitler is 'literally' the worst human ever to exist) and all doctors refused to save his life, wouldn't that imply that because he has a RIGHT to healthcare, those doctors should be forced to save his life? Even if they don't want to?
How do you force those doctors to provide for this right if they refuse to give service? A gun to their head? A threat on their families? I mean, it's a RIGHT.
Sanders, and you are a complete and utter retard if you think Rand's explanation has even the slightest drop of sense in it.
NATSOC is ultimate form of government. If only we could combine Trump's nationalism with Bernie's socialism.
>>58769401
You don't have a "right" to guns, you have a "right" to not have your property stolen from you - if you even have that. It's the difference between a negative and a positive right.
>>58769483
>How does mail work if there's not enough mailman? How do police work if there's not enough policemen? Ect, ect ect.
Nobody has a right to mail or police.
>>58769505
It isn't a right either
>>58767736
How do you boneheads get off thinking that the theres enough money going into defense to pay for the our nations healthcare?
Like where do you get these numbers?
Im pretty sure the extent of your thought process is "America has the largest military in the world, so there must be spending like 3x on military what we do on healthcare, of course theres enough money there" and thats it. No further research or thought.
Healthcare is 17 fucking % of the GDP. Do you have any idea what defense is?
>>58769505
>The government supplying demand to your service and paying you for it isn't
What the fuck does this even mean?
>>58766222
>two men are dying
>only one doctor around
>not enough time to save both
>doctor does not want to save either even for all the money in the world
Do you force the doctor to save one of them?
>the doctor is now a slave and has effectively no rights
If so, which one does the doctor save?
>the one who dies had no right to healthcare
Positive rights do not exist.
>>58769489
I don't know what MANPADS are, but if someone restricts you from possession of whatever those are that's wrong.
>>58766222
Here, this is a Canadian friend of mine.
She waited SIX YEARS for medical attention
The idea behind free health care is wrong because it sends the wrong message to society.
It gives people who don't give a shit about their health a get-out-of-jail-free card. They can do whatever they want because they can always just go and see the doctor without paying a cent outside of their taxes.
Meanwhile, people who exercise, eat healthy and look-out for their health will very really actually use the free health-care. And yet these people also have to pay huge taxes for services they don't even need.
>>58769541
>You don't have a "right" to guns
i absolutely do you fucking liberal kike shill
>>58769335
No anon, read the whole fucking case. The woman was getting murdered and/or raped and the cops responded to another call instead.
They brought a case against the cops and the supreme court decided that the police have an obligation to the public at large and not individuals. I don't know why I bother arguing anything here.
>>58767503
Wait, you mean to say you genuinely believe that police treat crime the same way regardless of who is victimized? Seriously?
>>58769579
And how often do doctors turn away patients?
>>58769530
Universal healthcare will not erase private healthcare from existence. Thus your whole argument is void.
>>58769621
>>58769483
>How does mail work if there's not enough mailman?
they cut down mail deliveries to fewer times per week.
>How do police work if there's not enough policemen?
they have fewer patrols, fewer detectives, and more crime.
both of these things happen regularly in the US. there are places that only get mail delivered twice a week, here.
>>58766222
Sanders is right. Libretardians, capitalshits and conservacucks are scum and literally worse than SJWs.
>>58769384
if they dont have the money to pay for a private sector hospital with taxes, im gonna bet that they dont even if you lowered their taxes, go be a stupid sweden somewere else
>>58769269
Why would I pay for a service that I'm never going to use because a private option is necessary?
>>58768099
Are you on crack? Jumping from "we should have social healthcare" to "you want to beat down my door and force me to take care of you" is worse than my craziest ex on her craziest anti-depressants during her craziest PMS trying to start the craziest fight.
>>58769599
Lmao. Man portable air defense system. A homing missile launcher to shoot down aircraft.
>>58769380
>Thomas Sowell is /pol/'s version of Neil deGrasse Tyson.
>/pol/ is literally a mirror image of plebbit, but just as plebby
>>58768459
>implying they don't have literally the exact same ideology behind them
Also, no.
>>58769621
He's completely right, you have no right to guns.
You have a right to keep and bear arms that shall not be infringed.
A right to guns would imply the government must give you a firearm if you do not have one.
I kind of support that tbqh
>>58769625
You're a fucking idiot, I explained all the details of the case I was talking about and you STILL think I'm talking about some woman
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/subway-stabbing-victim-sue-city-cops-didn-stop-attack-article-1.1409451
>>58767687
>emergency services is a human right
>keeping things from burning down is a human right
>investigating a crime committed against me is a human right
>>58769614
You know that healthy people get sick or injured unexpectedly right?
