A girl I started dating a bit ago says she's conservative when I asked her about her political position, and when I asked her what conservationism means to her she said love, compassion and empathy. So I asked her how so, and she said conservatisim is at its heart Christian, and that liberals are the ones who are spiteful and hateful. She said great conservative thinkers like Burke and Dostoevsky see people as driven by sentiment and love, whereas liberals think of people as driven by rational self-interest and try to fix humanity through cold, hedonic calculus, which she sees as detached from love.
Is she right, /pol/? or a bit idealistic and full of shit?
>>57239327
con·serv·a·tive.
[kənˈsərvədiv]
ADJECTIVE
1.holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.
synonyms: traditionalist · traditional · conventional · orthodox ·
>>57239327
Appealing to emotions to attack the other side is dumb.
Liberals do it a lot, but both sides are guilty, and they're both dumb.
>>57239327
She's perfection.
>>57239327
She's a keeper senpai.
>>57239327
She is correct.
Anyone on /pol/ driven by compassion and love?
Anyone on /pol/ know anyone driven by compassion and love?
Anyone believe this fag is dating a girl?
>>57240173
I am dating a girl, and precisely because /pol/ doesn't seem loving at all, I figured here it would be worth asking
I've seen this thread before.
>>57240880
Yeah, I talked about this shortly after our first date.
>listening to a woman's opinion
They're just something to put your dick in, brah. Long as she agrees with you and isn't going to bitch all the time it's all good.
>>57240173
American conservatism isn't as popular on /pol/ as either libertarianism or national socialism. I think surveys have shown more people identify as progressive or communist on /pol/ than they identify as conservative, but that may just be my bad memory.
>>57239327
>She said great conservative thinkers like Burke and Dostoevsky
Slip a ring on that bitch, ASAP
Any girl who even knows who the fuck Dostoevsky is, is a fucking keeper in this day and age.
>>57239327
Yeah, I have no problem with her point of view. Conservatism by its nature upholds the institutions that make up society, and the ideals those institutions embody. Women have always been the mainstays of our communities at the most basic level. I find her assertion refreshing, to be honest.
>>57239327
She's idealistic for sure, but you should wife her immediately.
Be careful when people use near meaningless words. It's classic ruse-fu, and you appear weak.
>driven by sentiment and love
What, exactly, does this mean? What is an example? Is the traditionally conservative viewpoint of small government driven by love? Does 'love and sentiment' ultimately translate to 'doing what they think is right'? I bet it does once you tease out the real meaning and application of the core of her argument.
Basically, she used words that made her feel good but don't relate to anything at all
>>57239327
She's speaking through pure woman-logic and she's doesn't seem like much of an intellectual but fuck it m8 a non-libtarded woman is a diamond in the rough so get to roughing her diamond NAW MEAN M8 DO YA NAW WOT AH MEAN
[spoiler]fug 'r[/spoiler]
>>57241466
Well, for instance, she says a conservative has to be adamantly against gay marriage (which I disagree with, a bit--I'm against fags, but not gay people in general), but she also says that if she didn't love people who are homosexual, then she obviously wouldn't care about them engaging in homosexuality to begin with.
you should check for a penis OP
>>57239327
You are truly blessed, my son! She's a keeper!
No, she's a fucking moron who learns about complex topics from soundbytes.
Conservatism has nothing to do with Christianity, for or against, neither does liberalism, and conservatism is not the opposite of liberalism, within a western context, conservatism is a method of implementing liberalism.
Conservatism has no actual ideology that is intrinsic to it, all conservatism is in a political context is to create and implement policy with the lessons of past successes as a major guiding factor.
All western conservatives who are not fringe nazis ect are liberals. Every Republican in your country is a liberal, for example. The USA is a liberal nation, the creation of the bill of rights and the constitution were hallmarks for western liberalism, on par with the French Revolution and the British Bill of Rights.
Some people have a progressive approach to how they implement western liberalism, some people favour a conservative approach.
When somebody says shit that indicates that they think liberalism and conservatism are diametrically opposed, they are telling you that they are ignorant and lazy minded, and learn about the world through pundits and marketers.
As for the primary motivations behind conservatism, that's as varied as the amount of situations in which conservative viewpoints are derived or utilized.
For example, a conservative statement could be "I am against x policy, it is not fleshed out, I do not believe it's prudent to implement it piecemail, come back when you've outlined it in full and funded it".
And it could come from anybody. It's not a side to be taken at the expense of all else.
>>57241926
>>57241731
But that's not a reason to call it love. People that are literally homosexual love eachother and want gay marriage out of love for eachother, why does their love drive them to an opposite conclusion?
Again, she is just calling preconceived beliefs 'love' to validate them. You could literally name any position and spin it with love.
I love gays so much that I want them to be free to discover the world around them to their hearts desire! I love gays so much I want all of them to live in my basement forever! I love gays so much that I just want them to be happy and share their love with the world by getting married!
Furthermore, I could claim she is really driven by self interest, because love is the feeling she is feeling and wants to feel more of, and is therefore selfish at its core.
>>57239327
She's an idiot, but a useful one.
Keep her, anon.
Both conservatives and liberals see humans as driven by rational self-interest. Also; I'm not certain she's actually read much Dostoevsky. Even in his later novels where his "conservative" shit comes from, you'd be very hard pressed to find a character motivated entirely by love and not by their own interests in some form.
She might be thinking of Tolstoy, whom was an idealistic idiot, at best.
>>57241926
quality post
but...
>>57242081
REKT
E
K
T
>>57241926
I dig your classicism man, but this is archaic pedantry considering the context of the question is casual conversation. With a woman. American conservatism is owned by authoritarian Christians fearing otherness 24/7. There are mostly-silent moderates, and libertarians on the fringe, but the zealots are in charge.
>>57242088
She says they do love for each other, but she says lust is not an expression of love, in fact it impedes it.
>Furthermore, I could claim she is really driven by self interest, because love is the feeling she is feeling and wants to feel more of, and is therefore selfish at its core.
Couldn't this also be said for self-interest though? Everything is ultimately driven by love, etc. even self-interest, which is love of self?
>>57241926
You're right. Not much else to say
>>57242294
i think that very few zealots actually wield real power, america is a corporate oligarchy, those christian representatives are only there to garnish votes from the evangelicals and do what they are told
>>57242203
She's religious, she's sees it as our nature to love, but our state of sin which perverts that, and according to her, Dostoevsky explores that theme a lot.
>>57242294
nice meme, reddit fag
>>57239327
You found yourself a woman who understand Traditional virtue. Consider yourself lucky my friend.
>>57242316
Then her idea that liberalism is cold and calculating would be wrong.
She thinks all homosexual couples just fuck all day? Jesus, she's never been around older gay couples. They don't give a shit about sex usually, they just like to be with eachother and be in love with eachother.
She's just a smart bitch who realizes that the right is rising up a little, and since /pol/ is too stupid to women hate, they'll love her for her "conservative" opinions.
>>57242450
sounds pretty fucking gay bro
>>57242450
She doesn't have any problem with same-sex Platonic love. She just thinks marriage is an improper expression and says even the ancient Greeks would think same-sex marriage is wrong.
>>57242523
Love is really gay.
You're supposed to love Jesus completely with all your heart above all other beings in the universe. And he is a man, literally. It's pretty gay. Just non sexual.
>>57239327
She's a woman. Her opinions are going to be emotional. Luckily she's had proper guidance from the men in her life.
Hate is the only pure emotion.
Hate fuels struggle and success.
The world need to be cleansed in hate
Love is for cuks and faggots, your gf is brainwashed by the kikes
>>57239327
< Dostoyevsky
Read Crime and Punishment asap senpai. You don't want to just be the arm candy in the relationship.
>>57242615
And properness is driven by love, right? Or is it driven by traditions?
The main point is that saying her opinions are driven by anything other than her just thinking they are right is silly. We've shown that liberals can also be driven by love, and have different conclusions, thus meaning that love != conservative opinions. She just thinks that marriage (a made up arbitrary system), is meaningful in some way (her current place in history), and doesn't think gay people should be part of it because her notions of marriage don't mesh with gay people. That's all there is to it, someone else could think they do mesh and be equally right, because it's allllll made up.
The Greek thing is an obvious fallacy, that can be countered by anyone.
>>57241731
Christians can hate sin without hating the sinner bruv.
>>57239327
>great conservative thinkers like Dostoevsky
I wonder why do americans never read?
She is full of shit no doubt.
>>57241926
Atheist detected. /pol/ is a Christian board/ boardofpeace
0
>>57242294
It's not "classicism". What I said used to be accepted fact within my lifetime. Pundits and marketers consistently saying stupid simplistic shit does not actually change the nature of our language or the concepts we use it to describe...it just means that they're consistently stupid.
>>57242856
She thinks Western tradition is heavily intertwined with Christianity.
>>57242408
my reading of Dostoevsky resulted in the opposite, basically.
The nature of the overwhelming majority of people in Dostoevsky's novel seems to be to default to a state of sin. Redemption comes through love (Raskolnikov in C&P, Mitya/Grushenka in Brothers K, so on..).
But even if you're redeemed, you're still going to fucking Siberia, lmao.
If anything, it's flawed human nature that makes God/love necessary, not the reverse.
she's a dumb cunt, but at least she isn't a SJW or some shit
>>57239327
Why are you here and not marrying her?
>>57242997
I haven't read him, but I will indeed ask her about that. I might he able to change her outlook.
>>57243098
I haven't been dating her that long, bruh.
>>57243133
Fair enough, good luck then.
>>57242997
>>57242408
I should probably try it in English, sounds like a complitly different books.
>>57242997
But Dostoyevsky dwells on sin because a state of sin is the only thing that can cause suffering. Love is the remedy to that because there would be no suffering if people loved one another (fraternity) and loved God (sinless state).
>>57242865
Yeah, considering Dostoevsky was exiled for being in a socialist revolutionary group, was exiled for 10 years, and then wrote a ton of shit with few threads running between them to create any coherent worldview, I'm always confused where this idea of Dostoevsky as "conservative" comes from. Sure, he said some pretty Orthodox shit in his old age, but I have a hard time believing he was ever actually a tsarist bootlicker.
I'm thinking they only read synopses of Brothers Karamazov and leave it at that.
>>57242088
but protecting marriage is motivated by love for and protection of children
>>57243260
I'd try it in Russian if I thought I could comprehend it.
I've read the first bit of Notes from Underground in Russian, at least. Thought my nose was going to fucking bleed on the page.
>>57243284
His characters suffer because of the sins they commit. Envy and pride that leads to murder in crime and punishment. Deceit and rationalization exacerbate his guilt and suffering.
>>57240701
I would argue that the heart of conservatism in practice is a certain acceptance of both humans and their natures. These are curtailed as necessary, ideally by social pressure. For example, if people from different cultures don't mix well, a conservative assumes that's a basic facet of human nature, and either tries to separate them, or socially pressure everyone into adopting a single culture (patriotism, instilling traditional values in school, etc). This is opposed to a liberal position that argues we should socially condition people to get along with all other cultures, often using social pressure or the force of law. Ditto for issues of race, sex, even income inequality, etc.
>>57243284
Yeah, she says that's in contrast to "the liberal theodicy" where selfishness isn't bad, it just needs to be purified by reason.
>>57243357
She said he was hostile to Enlightenment ideas and Westernization, and expressed nationalist sentiments.
>>57243357
He is about obsession, not about morality and sins and comprehenssions. About real unhelthy obsession. With an idea or game or another person. It's all about fermentation of minds, it can lead you to the monarhism, or to the revolution, to the church or to the madhouse it's not for you to deside, you can only obeyit or resist it.
The thing about Dostoevsky is the fact, that he is not moralist, he is sick realist.
>>57243809
>She said he was hostile to Enlightenment ideas and Westernization, and expressed nationalist sentiments.
He didn't like Poles and Jews, who runs gambling houses and pawn shops at the time. It wasn't a part of "national philosophy" or smth like this.
>>57239327
She's optimistic, which is fine. She sees the good in people(which does exist) more than the bad. What that means for her, however, can mean something totally different.
You'll have to get to know her more, anon.
Also something more for /adv/ than pol.
>>57243706
Pretty much, the conservative ascribes most things as simply the natural condition of man, inequality, hierarchy, cultural separatism etc and says build a system based around these natural things. The leftwinger sees the same thing but says this is not man's true nature and that man can be fixed if you can just get the right combination of pressures.
>>57243706
To expand a bit, I think the crux of this distinction is whether human nature is a more-or-less immutable facet of our existence that can be revealed through science (people are less happy living in more culturally diverse communities) or history/tradition (multicultural societies haven't worked particularly well in the past). Or can we facilely change all of those things and usher in a utopia?
>>57243809
>She said he was hostile to Enlightenment ideas and Westernization, and expressed nationalist sentiments.
That's definitely "post-exile" Dostoevsky, though his earlier statements within the Petrashevsky Circle do indicate a love of Russia somewhat in the vein of the slavophiles, all the while working to implement Western ideals (Fourierism), however. If Grossman's to be believed, Dostoevsky's earlier beliefs were extreme enough to lead him to participate in a heightening of the Petrashevtsy's goals by assisting in the operation of a printing press to disrtibute Fourierist pamphlets.
I mean, sure, some of his short stories and novels that he wrote post-exile do hint that he stood against Western ideals, contradicting his earlier stuff.
>>57243812
Yeah, that's been mostly my reading of Dostoevsky, as well - I put him in the same category as Gogol for his development of realism and showing the depths of the shit the Russian people were going through during the period.
>>57243960
>He didn't like Poles and Jews
He really didn't, lmao. He never gets full-/pol/, but he's certainly very critical.
Sorry for derailing your thread, OP.
>>57244117
>>57244134
We're on the same page here. I will say that, interestingly, I think the right combination of such pressures can't change man's nature per se, but certainly his actions. It just 1) creates a meta-unstable social structure, which doesn't portend longevity and 2) creates structures (e.g. state control) that create worse problems than they try to fix.
You can drive nature out with a pitchfork, but it comes back.
>>57241926
>anglo conservatism
>not just capitalist drivel
Kill yourself.
>>57240173
I'm driven by compassion and love for people of my own nationality and skin color. Everybody else can just die if it means it makes the lives of my people and I even a tiny bit better.
>>57243357
>I'm always confused where this idea of Dostoevsky as "conservative" comes from
His diary? Maybe you should read his opinions on bulgarians, to see to what extend his conservatism goes. You are illiterate mate, don't post things you don't know nothing about.
>>57244384
Yeah, I get he became a slavophile later in life (and more or less thought Russia was the only nation capable of liberating all the Slavs, but also that the other slavs would hate Russia for it in the short-term) and had some nationalistic ideals, but in everything I've seen, he was still constantly butting up against Tsarist policy in some areas, especially regarding censorship, for good fuckin' reason.
>>57244959
That's because tsarist policy was pro-modernization at the time. Just because some of his economic preferences are anti-capitalist doesn't mean anything regarding his conservatism(the better word is reactionary actually). The first reactionaries were anti-Enlightenment and anti-capitalist. Also religion was always a thing for slavophiles, even if they had more republican ideas, than monarchial. There is not a single one of the big marxist thinkers that considers dosto as anything other than reactionary. OPs GF is more right than any any of us in this thread.
>>57242203
you're an idiot too, because dostoevsky is just a meme.
sure he's a pretty smart guy, but honestly there is nothing groundbreaking i find within his work.
its not bad work, its just not really adult reading material either
you get awesome hipster points by reading his shit tho
>>57245543
Nothing is new under the sun, anon. Honestly, he gets most points from me as an "existentialist" before existentialism had really been fully developed. Otherwise it's just interesting and fuckin' beat having to read Steinbeck and shit.
>>57245151
I've probably been tainted by Grossman, might be the issue, seems a lot of his insights are in dispute, but, it looks like there's some reason to believe that the smarmy fuck Dostoevsky managed to hide the full extent of his revolutionary activity and dropped tongue-in-cheek hints throughout his later writings in his diary and some of his letters. I think Grossman may give a bit too much creedence to some of the quasi-socialist stuff Dostoevsky said on very rare occasion (maybe twice), looking back on what I've got in front of me, it doesn't look Fourierist so much as simply a rejection of capitalism - not like he's advocating for phalansteries here.
>>57245543
Hm. she thinks Notes from the Underground was groundbreaking.
>>57239327
>She said great conservative thinkers like Burke and Dostoevsky
>Dostoevsky
>conservative
Girl confirmed for being clueless.
>>57245543
As one of our famous actress once said, then someone complained that Sistine Madonna didn't impress him in person:
"This lady is old enough to deside by herslef whom to impress".
>>57239327
I've read this pasta before.
I hope you get banned.
>>57246259
>>57240967
It can't be pasta, because I typed it up each time.
I want to post but I'm IP blocked.
>>57241110
Nah most people on /pol/ are red-pilled alt right fuckers but most of them are alright I met my hunting buddy on /k/ and it turns out he was originally from /pol/
>>57246504
Fuck yeah, not anymore.
>>57244292
This guy speaks the truth. Except Dostoyevsky was extremely anti-Jewish. Cba to quote though. Everything is easily googleable.
>>57246670
>extremely anti-Jewish.
Considering time he live in - not that extimly at all. Also he didn't like Poles even more.
