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Politicians on all sides talk about bringing manufacturing back.
But are manufacturing jobs really that important?
I mean, what's so bad about offshoring production to China and Cambodia and importing the other goods? Why not keep focusing on growing the IT, finance, and management consulting sectors?
op is one of those everyone needs to go to college retards senpai
>>66911595
>failed community college
>even if I go back good programs required 2.5 cumulative gpa
college is no go for me. Unless I just go for some kind of cert
>>66911530
Because you need a degree for those jobs, while manufacturing you don't. The push for everyone to go to college, even if they aren't cut out for it, has made the job market saturated with bachelor's degrees for people that shouldn't have them, and now a degree is the bare minimum even though you have to pay thousands to get it. If that trend continues then the next generation will need a master's as a minimum to get into any kind of career.
People need these jobs so that they can accept not going to college, and leave it to those who can actually succeed, and still contribute to society while making an honest living. Plus nogs tend to like those jobs so it would help in getting them out of technical fields where they tend to struggle.
>>66911530
offshoring manufacturing is bad because:
- your (unemployed) workforce becomes reliant on hand-me-downs from tax on bankers and managers
- otherwise valid hand-me-downs are become widespread, turning into government subsidies of the offshoring companies
- your manufacturing is gone. you know, in case you actually need to fucking manufacture shit because the country you offshored to doesn't like you anymore, or your trade deficit has bled the country dry and the banks+businessman find the next rich host.
>>66911595
>>66912488
It'd not that the government should subsidize college. It's that the government shouldn't actively interfere with the free market by trying to bring back manufacturing to the US.
What do you think makes those other nation's economies so strong, you silly doughnut?
Of course we need manufacturing jobs.
>>66914190
But the US has the most powerful economy in the world, and we've transitioned far towards a service-based economy.
>>66912592
>your (unemployed) workforce becomes reliant on hand-me-downs from tax on bankers and managers
the unemployed workforce can find low-paying secretarial jobs and other service jobs while they study at night to acquire the skills necessary to make it in the current job market. It's their fault for being too lazy to learn new skills.
>otherwise valid hand-me-downs are become widespread, turning into government subsidies of the offshoring companies
Which hand-me-downs are you referring to? Governments are subsidizing companies to reshore their manufacturing, which is a tremendous waste.
>your manufacturing is gone. you know, in case you actually need to fucking manufacture shit because the country you offshored to doesn't like you anymore, or your trade deficit has bled the country dry and the banks+businessman find the next rich host.
There are plenty of low-cost labor around the world. You don't have to rely on a single one like China. And technology and finance jobs create enough value to the economy that it's worth a trade deficit.
Gee I hope USA doesn't ever need to fight all those nations who have manufacturing
>>66911530
>are
>jobs
>important
Wtf am I reading?
Manufacturing = making shit
This includes everything from high end tech to pointy sticks.
Your developed countries should pursue high end manufacturing that needs a skilled workforce with a working life of 50 years to succeed.
Your poor countries should focus on simple production until they can modernize and compete. Their lower wages will let them be competitive for low skill jobs even with the shipping offset. A balanced economy will save a country from a bubble collapse in their only industry.
>>66914893
>There are plenty of low-cost labor around the world. You don't have to rely on a single one like China. And technology and finance jobs create enough value to the economy that it's worth a trade deficit.
So you're FOR using slave labor then, good to know the democrats haven't changed for over 2 centuries.
>>66911530
It is impossible to bring them back to any country in US/EU once they left without heavily subsidizing them. Meaning covering all the losses an employer would have by operating a plant with expensive workforce in France instead of China.
Those jobs went to China first, then they will relocate to Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Kenya...they are never coming back, except in the čaše of global economic meltdown and return to closed protectionist national economies before WW2.
>>66911530
The U.S has become a service nation. There is nothing we can do about this until companies can be equally or more profitable here. Raising tariffs/taxes for companies that outsource, and lower their tax burden here will surely help.
The thing about raising tech workers is, they age with the tech. Old tech workers rarely know what to do with new tech every 10-15 years. Then you have an aging workforce that can't work because they can't do anything with the tech. But a steel worker can do that job all their life. You need to balance it out.
>>66911530
A nation that can't make anything but burgers and spreadsheets.
>>66916193
I'm not a democrat though.
>>66915653
That's why the US has a world-class military. So it can stomp any country that tries to play trade games with us. And the US is diversifying its offshore manufacturing. There's very little threat here to the United States.
>>66916230
>>66916345
>It is impossible to bring them back to any country
>The US has become a service nation
that's what I'm saying. I just think it's ridiculous how the governments try to bring the manufacturing jobs back and are trying to halt further offshoring
>>66913964
That wasn't the argument I was making. I said that we need these jobs BECAUSE not everyone is cut out for school, and it shouldnt be the government's responsibility subsidize school costs. The only reason Sanders is popular is because the market is saturated with unemployed degree holders because they were promised that the degree would guarantee them a job, which it doesnt anymore, it's now considered the bare minimum. If these manufacturing jobs were in the U.S. then the market wouldn't have been saturated. Bringing them back may give people who shouldn't go to college another option and hopefully desaturate the market a bit.
This would eventually lead to an increase in wages for jobs that do require a degree while still generating jobs.
>>66911530
Manufacturing and resource extraction/trading are the backbone of any western middle and working class.
Guess what things most western countries don't have anymore.
>>66917050
>I'm not a democrat though.
nice try faggot.
>>66911530
Finance and Management are the burger flipping of national wealth.
I.T. to a lesser extent.
Without real output you are coasting on previous wealth.
Great if you're a tiny, strictly managed nation like Singapore. Not so great for places like the U.S. or Australia.
Manufacturing is one of the reasons Germany and South Korea have been able to maintain their relative economic strength.
>>66913964
so cute how you think it's a free market
>>66917090
There aren't enough positions to make it economically viable.
Having everyone study to be Engineers just dilutes the engineer wage pool.
>>66911530
If it weren't for Manufacturing I'd still be a NEET leaching off my parents hoping I could find a job after paying for a piece of paper known as a "degree".
>>66917840
I don't think you're understanding, I'm saying the exact same thing as you, the problem is there are too many degree holders. Bringing in manufacturing jobs will lessen the need for degrees, reducing the incentive for people to get degrees. This benefits those that go to college even if they shouldn't, either due to lack of commitment or poor major choice, by giving them another option than trying to slug through college. It also helps those that should get degrees because they will have less competition for jobs that should require a degree.
because you can't sell at 1st world prices while paying 3d world wages forever.
>growing the IT, finance, and management consulting sectors
because those industries are pointless and only exist to facilitate actual industry, such as manufacturing/shipping/drilling/construction.
.
If you can't figure it out, let me spell it out for you, china and others will take over finance, IT and management on their own soon enough.
>>66917090
Most people can learn some programming in night school and community college. It's just that they didn't think they needed to do the work. Now that they're unemployed, they should be willing to go back and work hard. That is unless the government subsidizes them (which we both agree that the government shouldn't do). And yes, there are _some_ people who are just not cut out for school. Well, the country still needs burger flippers, doesn't it?
>>66917327
>>66917518
>Manufacturing and resource extraction/trading are the backbone of any western middle and working class.
Source? It seems to me that the service industry is now the backbone of the middle class. And it is obviously creating wealth and value. If it wasn't, then why would companies be hiring service workers/contracting professionals?
>>66917629
Sure it's not a completely free market. But these subsidies are still making the market less free and more constrained.
>>66917861
Now you're leeching off daddy government's subsidy bucks. Good for you.
>>66911530
Have you ever used a Chinese made tool?
Their manufacturing quality is garbage
>>66919187
There ISN'T a middle class anymore.
Because manufacturing is dead.
>>66919187
>creating wealth and value.
Creating less wealth and value for the middle and working classes.
Hence trickle down.
Hence stagnant wages and lower purchasing power.
Free Markets and Globalism are great for some, bad for others.
Manufacturing leads to skilled labor and production of real wealth, rather than just wealth redistribution, which is what service economies rely on.
>>66919187
There aren't enough jobs though, and tech is starting to get ivaded by H1-b visas. Eventually programming, software development, and IT will be handled either out of the country or in sourced using immigrants that can be paid less.
The job market is not an infinite well, and in the not too distant future tech jobs will be nonexistant. There's already enough competition in the job market for those jobs, telling people they need to go to more school to get a job is how we got into this mess in the first place. With manufacturing jobs there will be more options for people to take instead of something involving academic pursuits.
>>66911530
You can't have a country full of managers, investment bankers, comparative religion scientists and Medical Doctors at least not for longer than 5 years before it falls appart.
You need lower qualification jobs where people can earn good money. Not everyone should/can get a bachelor degree without devaluing that the degree to shit. (A US bachelor is a worthless degree in Switzerland, employer put it on the same level as "finished elementary school".)
It's actually the US education system that is failing completely.
>forcing everyone to go to High School for 12 years where at least 50% can't keep up with 9th grade things
>everyone has to go to college we even find one for the special ed retard to hand him over some kind of Bachelor degree, hell even if you want to become a carpenter you better have a college degree
>lack of apprenticeships where you can leave high school after grade 9 or 10 and learn a trade over 3 years 3-4 days doing actual work for a company and spend 1-2 days in school to learn the needed theory rewarded with a degree that allow them access to higher education their field.
Jobs gone, middle class in decline, minimum wage burgerflippers and taxi drivers with shit tier Bachelor degree on the rise as there is no low entery requirement with the chance to get promoted trough hard work and experience without a paper job left.
Get manufacturing/manual labour jobs back, put people as young as 15 into the workforce (if they earn their own money even your niggers won't nigg around) leave college for those that can get a useful degree from it, if others want to go into higher education later why not do a bachelor with 30 while having a actual job to support it?
>>66919343
It seems to be good enough for most people. Otherwise there'd be far more demand for western-made hand tools.
>>66920237
>just wealth redistribution, which is what service economies rely on
I don't that's true at all. Tech support and management consulting help firms become as streamlined and as efficient as possible, and finance helps great ideas get funding and become successful. That seems to be the production of real wealth to me.
>>66911530
There are a few benefits to a stable manufacturing sector. It provides stability, and makes the economy slightly less susceptible to market fluctuations. It lessens socio-economic inequality between classes, and provides people with decent paying jobs who wouldn't fare well in a service based economy otherwise (class divide).
When you boil it down, outsourcing lesser manufacturing jobs like isn't bad, and its a completely natural phenomenon to developed, post-industrial nations like most of the western world. The downside to a manufacturing intensive economy is that it doesn't really grow in terms of wealth, and it isn't exactly feasible with the benefits and wages people in the west demand these days
>>66922193
Tech yes.
Consulting and management? They don't PRODUCE anything of real value.
You're rearranging seating.
>>66922035
The undergraduate academic/ bachelor degree bubble in North America is an entirely separate issue. The topic of discussion is manufacturing in particular, not youth unemployment.
>>66923094
It's the same issue. In the 90's a concerted effort was made to send more North Americans to college, to compensate for the off shoring of manufacturing. Now there are too many graduates compared to vacancies.
>>66923094
You need them for people who need a new job out of their sector (structural change), you need them for young people, you need them to get long term unemployed back into labour.
I linked it because a retard in school can be the perfect guy to run a team that does nothing but simple assembly task or is so autistic that he's the perfect QA manager for product x.
Those simple manufacturing jobs are a step stone and the spine of the economy.
>>66911530
Because the US has shitloads of low skilled workers who are unsuited to white collar work
>>66911530
F-35 runs on China made microchips.
That's why.
>>66911530
>OP cant stop sucking cock
Wealth is grown through producing things. Usually that involves manufacturing. You dont produce, you dont make money.
America has been living off the entire worlds money through the dollar being the reserve currency of the world. Basically, our dollar has the buying power of the worlds economy, not "america's".
>>66925492
Don't forget the military.
We anglos get to "manage and consult" foreigners like OPEC because if they make a move to manage themselves they get liberated to hell and back.
Which is fine, but it would be nice to produce our own goods rather than run as a middleman.
>>66922902
But management consulting does help produce value. They help firms cut cost and become efficient.
It's like saying an engineer doesn't produce anything because the machine he designed is the one producing goods. Engineers design equipment and consultants design firms, both of which produce value.
>>66911530
Can't sustain a country on that. On a whim, compare it to households
>household #1 only buys takeaway, no fridge, nothing, only one shop
>household #2 has a fridge, full stock, shops once a year for durable scratch products
>shops close/supplies in stores run low/household cut off money supply
>household 1 dies in 3 weeks time
>household 2 lives without change for a year
This is why you need local produce. Once China or Cambodia tells you to fuck off, you got nowhere to turn.
They WERE important.
The thing is if it's not the cambodians or the Chinese it's gonna be the robots. AI has coe to the point where it's getting increasingly cheaper to buy an automaton than hiring a person to do the same job at lower output at lower quality. They used to be a way for the lowerclass to gain middle class status but the way technology is working it's not gonna happen
>>66927330
It does. 100%.
But it's in the end assisting someone else to maximize the profit of their production and resources.
The British were never great at manufacturing and exporting. But they were great at management and consulting.
But this requires continuous expansion of markets.
In the end I'd rather be the guy with the pigs than the guy telling him the best way to breed them.
>>66911530
Manufacturing is the easiest sort of labor to build a local economy around. If a town gets a factory, that has a ripple effect as real money enters the economy in exchange for real value.
The claim that all developed nations must eventually gravitate towards service-based economies is false. The Germans understand this, they've gone through extreme lengths to allow their manufacturing industries to continue thriving through currency manipulation, and it has served them enormously well.
If they can do it, why can't we?
Manufacturing jobs will come back but only to oversee and provide maintenance on automated factories.
So basically 15 jobs where there used to be 2000-3000.
>>66911530
>But are manufacturing jobs really that important?
when the money grubbing clowns moved mfg. jobs overseas they didn't realize that along with the factories, the tire stores, grocery stores, barbers and beauty shops, gas stations, cafes, coffee shops, doughnut shops, clothing stores, shoe store, etc, had no clients.
It ruined America.
>>66928632
This.
Germany's economic dominance is because they retained their manufacturing given to them by the Americans. Same with South Korea.
>>66911530
Federal Acquisition Regulations code requires defense business product to be manufactured and/or sourced from an approved country. Typically, depending on what you're manufacturing or buying, it's cheaper to go local rather than import from an approved country.
>>66928081
Never. Good. At. Manufacturing? Industrial revolution, biggest empire, massive monies? Not ring a bell?
>>66930053
It's okay. Bring in cheap foreign labor to decrease wages and thus prices so Americans can afford to purchase these goods again. When wages decrease too far we can simply compensate with generous welfare schemes funded by government debt.
Prove me wrong: protip you can't.
>>66930406
What great manufacturing exports were the U.K. known for? Rapist priests and convicts.
Also don't confuse technology development and military for manufacturing.
Those things the British were GOAT at, hence literally the GOAT empire.
>>66911530
Because no-college jobs ARE class mobility and all the stagnation and recession you've neen seeing are what happens when an upper middle class lawyer's son tries to descend to a lower middle class programming spot-work job but gets rejected in favor of minimum pay wife burners from the land of devil worship and waking nightmares.
There, I talked about Indians without resorting to that stupid rhyme.
Manufacturing jobs never help a county.
It's best if we switch to an all-consumer economy.
I mean, what could go wrong?
>>66931106
Look at this picture.
Are you honestly telling me this couldn't have been achieved quicker and easier by having them buy their way out of the rubble?
>>66911530
OP
Related discussion:
>>66781342
>>66781342
-
Check money velocity
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M1V (Top was 2007 Q4 at 10.7, now down to 6.3)
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M2V (Top was 1997 Q3 at 2.2, now down to 1.5)
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MZMV (Top was 1981 Q1 at 3.5, now down to 1.4)
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/Mult (Top was January 1987 at 3.1, now down to .7)
Actually I didn't update the Numbers. They all continue to get worse, Trend Down.
-
Hey OP
What is the alternative to Globalism, Trade Economy that benefits the Leaders of US Trade, and Consumption Based on Debt/Credit Spending?
- Money Created from Labor
- Consumption based on Labor
- Less Usury in Govt Budgets, Less interest Payments
- Less Money leaving local economies to pay for Foreign Trade, Wall Street or European Loans
- Mercantilism
- Less Service Based UK Type Economy
- Value on Products, Property, Ownership, Skills like in making things with your hands, building your community, state, region instead of Washington DC, Wall Street, FIRES Industries, London, China
>>66928632
>>66930095
Strange. All I hear is politicians screaming that we need to get those underprivileged kids into university. They're making the schools easier and easier every year to accomplish just that.
So the same thing is happening in Germoney. Everyone wants them big university degree bucks but no one wants to actually work for them.
>>66911530
Manufacturing jobs provided job security and revenue to small towns and working-class families.
>>66931816
That's one of the best threads i've seen on /pol/ in years.
>>66911530
The used to teach in Business School that manufacturing jobs created more of a multiplier effect in the economy... more than any other kind of business.
The multiplier effect would have increased money velocity as well.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/Mult (Top was January 1987 at 3.1, now down to .7)
-
But it is not just manufacturing that has gone offshore. Services of all kinds too.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/USINFO (After 2008 Financial Crash 2.77 Million down from 3.7 Million) All Employees: Information Services
If you question offshore manufacturing, then you also question Capital, R&D, Technology, Corporate Jurisdiction, Tariff inequality going off shore. You also end up with closed up factories that are a kind of waste and eye sore. And you get wealth extraction in Trade imbalance (Deficit). If you lose your tax base/tax revenue, ... then you have too much federal debt, and too much overall household debt.
Chart is someone else's work.
>>66781342
Depends what you mean by "manufacturing".
Talking about mass produced garbage that's pretty much fully automated now?
Car factories where humans are still needed?
CNC factories?
Small jobbing shops?
I work at a small job shop and it's only getting more lucrative, I don't see how this can be shipped overseas for "cheaper labour". You need to be highly skilled and hit tolerances within 0.0002 of an inch.
Skilled manufacturing will always stay, it's the massed produced shit that will probably stay overseas.
The only way to generate wealth is through production of commodities and manufactured goods.
Service Economies can only skim wealth from the commodity and manufacturing economies they provide services for.
normal protectionist tactics to force jobs in developed markets are just harmful.
If you want to invest in industry and commodities to improve the economy. You need to increase the value of domestic labor. Then find new foreign markets to sell your products. The USA should be trying to get market share in Africa and South America. Competing against the Chinese.
>>66914893
>But the US has the most powerful economy in the world, and we've transitioned far towards a service-based economy.
Q: What happened to the Capital Flows, Money Flows of all kinds?
Economies used to be be judged on if wealth is flowing out.
What if an American Colony had a King who's Banks and Elites took the wealth of the economy and didn't allow the colony to prosper or keep it's wealth? Would there be a revolution? Of course. This happened all over Latin America.
How is wealth Extracted
- Harvesting Resources
- Taxes that are non-local
- Usury
- Trade
- Capital Flight
- Skills Flight
- Migration of Population to new lands
- Offshore Banking, Offshore Financial Centers, Offshore Incorporation, Incorporation in Regional Tax haven
>>66914893
>the unemployed workforce can find low-paying secretarial jobs and other service jobs while they study at night to acquire the skills necessary to make it in the current job market. It's their fault for being too lazy to learn new skills.
Q: What if Capital Leaves the Community?
What if sources of Investment see your economy as risky?
What if your Tax Base falls and your government now relies on high Property Assessments to Extract Higher Property taxes?
What if Federal Subsidies and Programs are cut and your community now faces budget and infrastructure problems?
Communities, Cities, Counties, States all rely on Wealth, tax revenues, investments, financial ratings, balanced budgets, good credit ratings...
Skills of the People
Growth in Population (demographics)
Retaining the wealth produced locally versus wealth sent to Transnationals, National Banks, Foreign Banks, Foreign Goods.
>>66911530
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-10/how-central-banks-have-made-wealth-inequality-worse
Says the Bank of International Settlements, BIS' Quarterly Review, Analysts Dietrich Domanski, Michela Scatigna, and Anna Zabai.
Central banks' attempts to kick-start advanced economies following the financial crisis have made the gap between the rich and poor wider, suggests the Bank for International Settlements.
