One thing atheist seem to be unaware of is the law of causality. Simply put, every effect must have a clause
Now let me ask you atheist, which of the following follows the law of causality?
>nothing got infinitely hot and exploded into the universe for no reason (aka big bang)
Or
>the universe was created by a being who was the capability to do so
Example 2:
>RANDOM mutations that came out of nowhere and made monkeys poop out humans
Or
>carefully designed features from an intelligent architect
Why can't atheistic theories follow the laws of the universe but God can?
Here's your reply.
Now fuck off.
>>56770613
Boooring
The law of causality states that you cannot get more out of the effect than you did in the total sum of all causes.
mostly meaning intelligence can't stem from non-intelligence.
God is real.
>>56771264
>intelligence can't stem from non-intelligence
That's like saying dirt can't stem from non-dirt i.e. that's retarded. If every cause had to be the same as its effects then nothing would be different and everything would be one giant space of non-features.
>>56771483
It's a scientific law. Dirt can't come from non-dirt you fool.
Kind of like how a black baby can't come from white parents.
Or how a cat can't come from dogs.
It's a law. There is nothing to debate and it's not stupid, you are.
>>56770613
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODetOE6cbbc
>>56770613
What is the cause of the being and its capability?
>>56771648
Which being?
Humans?
Actually quantum mechanics show that the cause + effect relationship might not affect it. It's a complicated thing
Dark energy is speeding the expansion of the universe.
Eventually, after universe have collided, all planets, stars, etc have cooled off, and the universe is one vast emptiness it will be completely torn apart.
Time and space will be completely separated, and reality as we once perceived it will be utterly destroyed and only a pure white void of pure nothingness will exist.
What caused god to exist?
>>56771739
Quantum mechanics also show that evolution is mathematically impossible.
>>56771681
see
>>56770613
>the universe was created by a being who was the capability to do so
In other words, who designed the architect that designed all the other human architects?
>>56771769
God is eternal.
Infinite regression cannot happen in being.
If there is no first "existence" the gift of it cannot be passed on down the chain of existence.
It's like asking to borrow a book from someone, and they have to ask to borrow it from someone else, ad infinitum, You will never get the book because no one actually has it.
>>56771844
see
>>56771900
This should answer your question.
>>56771900
But that's retarded.
What you're saying is god has no cause, it has just always existed.
How's that any different from saying whatever exploded during the big bang just always existed?
>>56772106
It's not retarded.
It's scientific law.
It isn't any different, and that's exactly what the BBT explains.
Anyone that has a basic understanding of physics knows the law of causality explains it all.
>>56771900
Then the entire premise of this thread gets thrown out because you are just giving the supernatural a pass through the law of causality which you could just as easily do for the sum totality of matter.
If there is a first existence then it had to have a beginning and it still needs a cause.
You can't ask infinitely because there are only so many people and even though you don't know who has it or how the book can to be, there are unknown serendipitous circumstances outside of your experience but inside the laws of physics that caused that book to exist because even the author ultimately had to use sources outside of their direct control to generate any book that would make sense to anyone else.
>>56771592
>I have no clue what a scientific "law" is
>>56772394
That is because God is outside of space and time.
The laws of physics don't apply to God.
God made the laws.
There was a first experience, we know it as the big bang. The cause of the big bang was God.
>>56771900
>God is eternal.
or... god doesn't exist.
>>56772184
No, the big bang says nothing about a being or the necessity of subjective experience, for all they know experience is an illusion, on a hologram, wrapped in a force field.
>>56772106
>>56772184
Going by your logic, our creator must have been created.
>>56772106
This. It comes down to you making an argument that high level mental processes, the same processes that have the MOST built up and convoluted underlying physical structure and complexity out of any known natural forms, are somehow the primordial, LEAST built up and most basic form of material in the universe. Literally the worst candidate for the underlying ground of reality since we know all the mental processes are extremely susceptible to disruption through physical tampering of the underlying neurological structure. This means they are emergent upon a lower, less built up form. Mental processes don't just exist as independent, magic floating ghosts, they only exist in every case that's ever been formally studied and documented in all of human history as a phenomenon emergent from and dependent on underlying physical brain tissue.
>>56770613
Its all a simulation in the end anyway.
>>56772460
That would be yourself you are referring to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_%28physics%29
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/causation-process/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEViOoeBikc
>>56770613
(You)
>>56772503
>>56772512
>>56772521
Watch this video.
You literally are in these videos.
>>56772579
Go back to >>>/b/
>>56770613
>a being that breaks the law of causality because it always existed
Apply yourself. This is mental gymnastics. Either something can break your non-law or not, make up your mind.
atheists cant even prove the universe is finite. dumbfucks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ2yx9e-PyU
Here is another one.
>>56772761
Watch this
>>56772789
And this
>>56772634
>>56772767
>atheism is defined as the assertion that the universe is finite
>>56772489
You abandoned your scientific law that you keep appealing to though and you don't understand that the singularity was the first experience that existed before time, the big bang didn't come until singularity had existed for an unknown quantity that could easily have been eternal and doesn't require sentience, experience, or cause.
>>56771900
>hurr durr
Supposing we entertain you and agree in a higher power, how the fuck do you explain beliefs like Christianity and Islam.
>>56772863
Consider energy cannot be created and infinite means never ending you can't have an infinite universe because you can't create infinite energy.
>>56770613
>the being popped out of nowhere
Nice try.
>the universe was created by a being who was the capability to do so
And this capable being also just sort of existed? Your argument is immediately flawed.
If nothing can't get infinitely hot and explode into a universe for no reason, then neither can a God suddenly just "have always existed XDDDD"
>>56772579
Posted by "IntelligentFaith315"
How can you expect an actual dialogue about such phenomena with anyone? You cant even properly source your evidence. Get your science from actual scientists. Fucking Christians man, as if a Judeo-Christian creator is the 1/2242345234 fucking gods humanity has fathomed. Seriously, wake up.
>>56772932
>>56772943
Watch this.
>>56772789
It's a different conversation when it comes to Christianity or other religions.
Until you accept that God is real we can't have that conversation.
Watch the video.
Look up the cosmological argument.
>>56771264
Causality changes in modern physics because you can have studies in quantum physics give you bizzare readings that tell you that the cause happened after the effect because not every situation is within the same inertial perspective. I am not a math major or working at CERN, but I can tell that the fabric of our reality is more complex in its levels of existence than our perception. I am still an Atheist despite there being godlike potential in higher dimensions. Admitting knowledge is limited is true wisdom rather than the sophist approach of religion to say that you KNOW what caused the Big Bang as a bigger invisible man in the sky like your sacred scripture says. Your unciteable source that has disputable authors and translations.
>>56772988
It didn't.
It was always there.
>>56773001
Watch this video
>>56772789
>>56773030
Watch this one then
>>56772789
>>56773061
Quantum mechanics are meaningless and have no validity.
Watch this damn video
>>56772789
>>56773030
You are brainwashed.
>>56773061
>invisible man in the sky
Atheists always go to that as a way to escape thinking.
>>56773032
I don't need to watch the video to know that religion is bullshit the existence of a higher power or not.
>>56773131
>Quantum mechanics are meaningless and have no validity.
QM is used to make and run your computer. Unless you believe SSD are the devil.
>>56773032
That video is just an exercise in God of the Gaps.
>Science can't explain it, so it must be a miracle, if there are miracles, there must be a god, so if science can't explain something, there must be a god.
>>56773147
Yes, you are brainwashed. I'm glad your alternate self realized that.
>>56773193
>I don't need to understand mathematics to do math
>I don't need to understand philosophy to be philosophical
Okay then
>>56773243
And if there is a god his name is Dr Manhattan erm I mean yeezus
>>56772973
Whatever isn't energy, isn't the universe, and is infinite that you posit as the explanation for current, observable reality, it doesn't need to exhibit high level mental processes. Moreover, it logically wouldn't exhibit those sorts of processes since we know those processes are heavily dependent on a shitload of underlying physical infrastructure being in working order, whereas something preexisting of / more fundamental to reality than energy and the observable universe would not be dependent on a lower physical structure since that would defeat the purpose of it being the more fundamental ground of reality through which physical structures can be explained.
>except muh god muh god is imoone to da law of causality
Atheists are the worst people ever. It comes from having no moral compass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI_F4nOKDSM
>>56770613
EUROPA
>>56773284
The content in that video does not change anything. And your analogies are so fail.
>>56770613
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Reported for being a /b/tier thread.
>>56770613
>RANDOM mutations that came out of nowhere and made monkeys poop out humans
ITT: Atheists trolling other Atheists
>there's nothing
>poof, suddenly there's an architect who creates universe appears out of nowhere
>>56773243
Yes, I'm sure he is just an idiot that gets invited to speak about philosophy at Harvard because he is an idiot making absolute zero logical sense.
Okay kid.
>>56773339
So energy can be created?
>>56773375
kek
You are in this video.
>>56772579
Also read up.
>>56773434
>implying you can get past impossible report captchas
>>56773432
It does because everything in that video is true.
Then what created god? Checkmate christfags
>>56773480
>Yes, I'm sure he is just an idiot that gets invited to speak about philosophy at Harvard because he is an idiot making absolute zero logical sense.
The great part about what you said, especially the logic part, is that it can be made by anyone. Being invited to harvard doesn't elevate his logic above all others.
He's right though man. This video literally just asserts that because some things right now are inexplicable, it's clearly God. I propose, it's the work of Spiderman. I'm equally as correct as this man is.
>>56773432
Argue with this.
>>56773409
>>56773087
>It was always there.
Special pleading fallacy
>>56773601
Did you hear what he said at the end?
The conversation about Christianity is fro another time.
Watch this too.
>>56773409
>>56773406
Atheism != communism | SJWism | feminism etc.
>>56773667
It's not a fallacy.
Look up the cosmological argument.
Watch this video too.
>>56773409
And this
>>56772789
>>56771785
Can you link some article or other source stating such claims?
>>56773480
You are the idiot because you can't even paraphrase it in your own words to make it fit this argument and you didn't even recognize it was a long exercise in a god of the gaps fallacy that appealed to semantics and fairy tales that he admits must be taken with a grain of salt, but prestigious universities have invited ancient aliens researchers and the time cube guy not because their arguments have merit, but because they give the listeners chances to activate their critical analysis and outside the box thinking in a more intimate situation with feedback and interaction.
>>56773701
Actually, no. Refute his and my point. How is it that the great creator is not Spiderman, and you are not a vile heathen?
>>56773168
>escape thinking
Not at all. I was a former Catholic and I still see things that are incredible that look like a supreme being had a hand in it. But I also see counter evidence that to me prevails. I am escaping assumptions, not thinking. To doubt and to ponder is to think. Excuse me while I flip my fedora. I like my beliefs. I enjoy them and I know you enjoy yours. Religion is a social/cultural dynamic that is based on truth claims. The bad thing is that these claims generally avoid criticism. The counter evidence I find is that prevails to me is that I can disprove a culture's arbitrary norms such as the belief that we are created in God's image or created by intelligent design by an omnipotent and omniscient being. I cannot disprove a superior unseen being's existance but I can disprove our claims about said being. I believe there could be a God of a sort, or gods. I do not believe there is one above all else and benevolent, AND follows the scripture of just Anon's favorite religion. Pick one of those 3.
>>56773701
>Did you hear what he said at the end?
The part about how it must be true because it is rising in popularity?
>>56770613
As someone who doesn't believe in any religion, you should know that it has nothing to do with denial of what you are saying. It's just you simply have not proven your offered solution.
At least, that's solution one. Solution 2 requires you to find evidence that humans have NOT evolved, because evidence (although not proof) has been offered to back evolution's theory.
>>56773813
>muh burden of proof
That's what you guys always say.
You need to prove that spiderman is the great creator.
Gosh you guys are never objective.
>>56773806
Tell me what your question is.
>>56773938
No, that is is a discussion for another time.
If you refuse to accept in a creator I won't waste time talking to you about Christianity.
>>56773785
Fuck you and your videos that you can't even understand enough to apply, you are just posting video that are longer and longer because you are getting BTFO quicker and quicker.
>>56773941
There is no evidence for anything ever evolving.
>>56771900
That's break your own laws.
Anyways your sky fairy isn't real, but you're just trolling
Here's your reply.
>>56774041
I haven't been BTFO by anything.
The law of causality is scientific fact.
I'm showing why God doesn't defy the laws of physics because God is outside of space and time.
The only responses I have seen are
>you're an idiot
With no intelligent argument after.
If you have a question you would like to present, I will gladly answer it to the best of my abilities.
>>56774069
It actually doesn't.
The law says every effect has a cause.
It doesn't say everything needs a cause.
>>56773974
>You need to prove that spiderman is the great creator.
I've got proof. Have you not read the comic books you villainous heathen? Do you DENY his holy works?
>>56770613
>all the scientists all over the world decided to just give up the whole scientific method thing at the point of the big bang and have never put any effort into figuring out what caused it so the theory goes it just happened at random lol
>ps we dont have to answer where god came from th-thats unknowable ok
![universe-brain[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/P8aGowx.jpg "universe-brain[1].jpg")
>>56774025
Good then fuck off because this thread isn't about Christianity, its a Spiderman thread because the being the created this universe was most likely some version of spiderman from the marvel multiverse.
This is a picture of the universe, notice how much it looks like a web while you look at it on the world wide web?
That can't be a coincidence, every effect has a cause and everyone knows a web is caused by a spider and a web of that magnitude could only be though of by a man, so it must be Spiderman.
Wow OP you sure seem to be very educated on this why not write a research paper about it?
>>56774216
I never claimed the Bible as proof of God.
I am claiming the Universe as proof and we both know that the Universe is very real.
I'm not arguing for the Abrahamic God either, just an intelligent creator.
Christianity is for a different time. I won't waste time if you don't even accept a creator in the first place.
>>56774391
why does it have to be a creator though?
why isn't it possible that our universe originated in a physical place with vastly different physical laws
you have a shit ton of multiverse theories of universe popping into existence all the time each with different fundamental laws and different directions of the arrow of time
>>56771592
Of course dirt can come from non-dirt. Every bit of rotting matter eventually turns into dirt. Also what is a scientific law you retard?
>>56774149
Oh, so you simply don't understand what defy means in this context because it isn't helpful to your mental gymnastics even though it doesn't go anywhere in explaining miracles? (if something is outside of the laws of physics it is said to defy the laws of physics, but something that is outside can not interact with the inside because that is how barriers work)
You have not addressed your use of god of the gaps and nobody called you an idiot yet, you just understand that using that argument is idiotic because it has failed in so many threads already.
>>56774303
That's fine if you don't want to talk about it.
I'm here if you have any questions though.
>>56774516
Because there is intelligence in the design of the universe and the human brain.
>>56774305
HEY I live next to you
>>56774644
>Because there is intelligence in the design of the universe and the human brain.
That's just like, your opinion, man.
>>56774586
The law states that every effect needs a cause.
Not that everything needs a cause.
It doesn't defy the laws because of exactly what you said.
God exists outside of time and space. The laws don't apply.
>>56770613
>we can trace creation back to this point but before that we refuse to say anything before we have evidence to say otherwise but it looks like from this data that there looks to be this and this
>no reason
>random mutations came out of nowhere
>what is genetics
>what is trial and error
>what is synchronicity
>god's laws are whatever I percieve them to be
You see how birds fly in a flock and how fish swim in schools? That is NOT sentient grouping. That is every individual piece unaware of the collective yet acting in what happens around it.
https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_strogatz_on_sync?language=en
The world does not stop turning if you look at it in a secular manner.
>>56770613
>god can.
Really nigger?
God has a cause then right?
You are going to prove the existence of gods cause right? Then the one before that yeah?
Jesus fuck dumbshit sign up for a phil101 paper infinite gods problem.
Bait/10 for getting me to reply
>>56774706
So you think that there is no design in the universe or the human brain?
>>56774644
>intelligent design
What does this even mean? Complex structures happen in nature all the fucking time.
Hell a single cell is chemically more complex than most things humans have ever designed.
>>56774711
>God exists outside of time and space. The laws don't apply.
So then God can not have a causal effect on the universe either.
It's one or the other; either God is part of the causal chain or He isn't.
>>56774790
Does it matter what I think? Thinking something does not make it true. Intelligence/design is an assumption on your part.
>>56774644
So all patterns are intelligent?
>>56774711
Ideas exist outside of space and time too, are you saying god is just an idea that can't interfere or interact with reality unless you act on its behalf.
>>56774775
No.
God doesn't have a cause.
The law states that every EFFECT needs a CAUSE.
Not that everything needs a cause.
The universe is the effect. You and I are the effect. Life on earth is the effect. The earth itself is part of the effect.
God is the cause.
>>56774677
RARE
>>56774848
>The universe is the effect.
Why can't the universe be the cause? Consider the fact that there is no point in time during which there was no universe.
>>56774848
That doesn't explain vacuum fluctuations that produce particles.
>>56772817
You seem to have trouble admitting to double standards
>>56774790
It was forged by many complex factors over a long period of time, there is no way for something to design it without full knowledge of everything ahead of time and if something did have full knowledge of everything ahead of time and all the time and power to enact that design, on would expect a much more efficient design and less uncontrollable variables.
>>56774793
A single cell is more complex than anything a human has ever designed.
And everything we have ever designed has purpose.
Yet... something even more complex than we can even dream up was the product of randomness?
Okay.... if you want to believe that.
>>56774805
God made space and time.
Before space and time there was either nothing, or there was something. We know there was something, we know that the universe didn't just pop into existence man.
>>56774844
Yes. Because a pattern has purpose. Algorithms aren't random functions, the brain doesn't produce random functions either.
Everything the brain does is to serve a purpose.
Ideas don't exist outside of space and time because we don't and they are products of our minds.
The First Cause argument depends upon the notion causality is absolute, a notion quickly becoming tenuous by modern physics.
Even if its true, it only proves that there must have been a beginning to the universe, and that the beginning must have been sufficient for all future causes. It does not prove that the first cause had to be intelligent, benevolent, etc.
A primordial void, a mathematical principle, or a chaotic singularity all make equally good first causes as a monotheistic deity.
The Deity is immune to the normal causality chain on the basis of his being eternal, but all that does for the first cause argument is tell us that the first cause has to be eternal, that is, outside the normal chain of causality to make the logic "work". Which is equally possible with one of the above examples.
>>56774303
"If Spiderman is spiderpowered, can he not vanquish evil?
If he is able but not willing than is action really his reward?
Then why call him Spiderman?
Spiderman? The guy who shoots webs?
Like a Spider?"
Bendis 10:16 Bendisthians
Bendesis 5:33
>>56773727
>Atheism != communism | SJWism | feminism etc.
Sure it does.
There are no real conservatives that lack a moral compass.
Atheists are Obama. Pelosi. Etc. No morals.
>>56771754
That depends on what you believe to be the fate of the universe.
A possible scenario would be the big crunch/bang cycle, which would ultimately suggest that our universe has been around for an infinite amount of time.
When we die, our energy has to go somewhere - energy can't be created nor destroyed.
>>56771844
This.
If God exists, who designed God, and who designed the guy who designed God? It is much more plausible to believe that God doesn't exist. It makes more sense to believe that the universe has just always existed in an infinite timeline.
>>56775059
>God made space and time.
Prove it.
>Before space and time there was either nothing, or there was something.
>Before time
No such thing. Contradictio in terminis.
>>56774149
Well maybe you don't get a intelligent argument because you are an idiot, ever thought of that? Ever heard the adage you don't argue with idiots because they pull you to their level and beat you with experience. That pretty much applies to your "arguments".
>>56774848
>Not that everything needs a cause.
The if everything doesn't need a cause and the universe is defined as everything, you clearly are saying that the universe doesn't even need a cause which invalidates your superimposed creator scenario.
>>56770613
And just where did this capable being you believe in originate from?
See the problem with your logic now?
>>56771592
>Dirt can't come from non-dirt you fool
Wow, what a fucking retard. I'm sure your sibling parents are proud of your mental skills.
>>56775059
The teleological argument depends on the idea that order does not emerge in a vacuum from 'non-order'. This is not the case, there are numerous examples in nature of spontaneous order, such as crowd-behavior and snowflakes. The laws of physics are sufficient for providing for any further order.
Saying that the laws of physics then must have been created too is begging the question, because it contradicts the initial premise, which is that "Order does not emerge from 'non-order". If the universe is fundamentally orderly, the argument that order has to be imposed is destroyed.
>>56774848
The cosmological argument posits that all effects are in turn causes.
It tries to answer the "what was the initial cause?" Question by creating something that falls outside of it's own parameters.
Kant would state that you are playing a word game.
You are breaking the rules to support the rules that you are asserting apply.
However an opponent would argue that you don't need your rule break (god) cos your rule is bollocks. I would instead say that even if the cosmological argument holds up, it still doesn't explain god, but merely that SOMETHING can fall outside of the rules. Why could that thing not just be the phenomena of the big bangs occurrence?
>>56774949
Because the universe adheres to the laws of physics. That is why.
>>56774988
Watch one of the videos I posted. It brings that up. If something can come from nothing, which is what you are suggesting, why can't God?
>>56775007
What are my double standards?
>>56775050
You just said there is no way for something to design it without full knowledge.
>>56773941
>because evidence (although not proof) has been offered to back evolution's theory.
No real Christian disbelieves evolution. That requires believing that God placed fossils to fool us.
Too many atheists...ok, all of them...don't care about facts. They only care about backing the official line of the Church of Atheism, which is
>we are so smart!1! dey be teh stupids!1!
>>56770613
Except mutations happen for literally everything and is proven.
>>56775198
>If something can come from nothing, which is what you are suggesting, why can't God?
You can replace God with an infinite number of things including an infinite number of variations of God. So it is up to you to prove your specific God exist not me.
Of course God exists, how do you explain the tides coming in and out?
>>56774711
so hold up, if we pray to God and he cant act in our space and time, who respond to our prayers?
>>56775081
>conservatives have a guaranteed moral compass
Oh wow. Does Dick Cheyney look like a saint to you? Was Nixon morally upstanding? Does Scott Walker look like a boyscout? These are REAL conservatives. They may not be your canon of conservatives but you have to do some serious goal post shifting to get out of this shit claim.
>>56775198
>You just said there is no way for something to design it without full knowledge.
Yes and I also said it wasn't designed by something, it was designed by many things.
>>56775130
Prove that there was nothing before time.
You can't.
No more than I can prove God created space and time.
>>56775144
No. It says every EFFECT needs a cause, not that not everything needs a cause.
And the Universe is not defined as everything either.
>>56775059
>Invoking teleological argument.
Jesus Christ man. Did you go and listen to one fundy Christian "mind blowing atheist btfo" argument vid on YouTube?
There are countless very good arguments against the argument from design. Just Google them and stop trying to be such a vegetales biblefm parrot.
>>56775081
Ooh Shut the fuck up!
You can cherish morality and values for purely logical reasons.
>>56775130
>being this stupid
man there are so many of you out there
>>56775198
Are you retarded? It has already been pointed out to you.
Also that spiderman guy seems to have a point. I'm gonna start worshipping spiderman. Fuck off heathen. Accept the holy spider.
>>56775246
Not unless you admit that you believe in a God first.
>>56775288
God exists outside of space and time. That doesn't mean God can't act within it. If God made space and time, God can certainly do whatever God wants with it.
>>56775315
Things don't create themselves man.
>>56775050
Thats stupid humans design stuff without full knowledge of everything all the time. Try a little programming and you will soon discover that you design features by accident at alarming rates, especially if you are new to the field.
>>56775198
>Because the universe adheres to the laws of physics. That is why.
How does that answer my question? Fuck, the universe can be the cause BECAUSE it obeys causality.
>>56775324
I think he meant that the concept of "before" is meaningless in a world where time doesn't exist.
>>56770613
>Simply put, every effect must have a clause
no, read Kant first
>>56775152
Wait a minute.
Are you saying you're all-knowing, so if something is unknown to you, it can't exist?
>>56775377
>being pagan
oh man you are going to get your ass kicked
>>56775223
Wut chuvak?
>>56775059
>Ideas don't exist outside of space and time because we don't and they are products of our minds.
Then all your ideas are bound by space and time and you can't even think of something that is outside of space and time meaning you can't even ponder the concept of some silly god outside of space and time.
>>56775190
>>56775195
I never said God needed a cause.
>>56770613
>every effect must have a c[l]ause
>the universe was created by a being
What caused the being smart arse?
>>56775324
Do you not know what "time" means?
>>56775437
Yup. What I said.
Deep doesn't care bro
>>56775492
God created space and time and you think he cant control space and time?
why so stupid USA?
>>56772521
You know whats funny. This circular logic. I mean causality apparently is disproved by OPs misunderstanding of the big bang and how mutations work. Both have a cause that triggers them.
>>56775377
I've been talking to like 16 different people.
>>56775429
Because the Universe would be causeless if it was the cause. Which defies the law of causality. Does that make more sense?
>>56775430
Time does exist though.
>>56775492
But I can. And I just did. Several other thousands of millions of people do it every day.
>>56775497
You also didn't read what I wrote.
But that's okay, the US school system is notoriously shabby.
>>56775514
BEING DOESN'T NEED A CLAUSE BECAUSE SPACE MAGIC
>there are people who are literally this retarded
>>56775568
Also, if god is somehow exempt from this causality, so can other things be.
>>56775497
I said nothing to the effect that you did. I am saying that all the first cause argument 'proves', if it proves anything at all, is that an uncaused cause exists. Why does that uncaused cause have to be God?
It can just as easily be a mathematical principle, or a chaotic bubbling void, or any number of other things. And all of this falls completely flat, if causality turns out to be wrong, that is, not universal or linear. In a universe where the future can cause the past, your argument makes no sense.
>>56770613
>>the universe was created by a being who was the capability to do so
Holy shit
That still defies causality you fucking retard
You can't just say "he's God so he can defy causality and exist for ever"
Christ fags are literally fucking retarded
>>56775568
We know the big bang had a cause. So what you said is wrong.
Evolution follows scientific laws as well so your post just doesn't make any logical sense.
>>56775528
Time is a measurement.
Prove there was nothing before time.
You can't. I'm just using your own tactics against you because you can't be objective.
>>56775305
>conservatives have a guaranteed moral compass
You made my point that atheists have no moral compass, or intelligence.
You can't argue my point, so you made one up.
Thank you.
>>56770613
So who created the being and so on?
>>56770613
>>RANDOM mutations that came out of nowhere and made monkeys poop out humans
This doesn't defy causality you fuckin idiot
Jesus christ
>>56775580
>Because the Universe would be causeless if it was the cause. Which defies the law of causality. Does that make more sense?
So you invent a being that also breaks the rule in order to get around the idea that something can lack a cause?
>>56775428
They have only redesigned small things from their environment through a lot of trial and failure throughout all the time, but no person designed everything in existence from scratch on their own, however, they architects generally do have full knowledge of what they are designing if it is to work according to design and remain in tact, otherwise it isn't a successful design, are you saying you think your god is an ignorant failure and this universe is just another glitch from a discarded attempt at creation?
>>56775608
if he created it he dont need a cause you fool
jezz, this is why usa is going down, they are so stupid
>>56775456
Internet tough guy detected
Spider man will eat your face after you die. I counter your feeble threat of physical violence with supernatural violence. I win and God won't help you.
>>56775346
Thanks, Captain.
But you missed my point completely and substituted one of your own that you could handle.
>>56770613
Who created the being by your logic.
If a 'monkey can't shit out a human' who made god?
him making himself is essentially the big bang in different words. Your logic is flawed.
>>56775631
If not an intelligent creator, then what?
But we have yet to see that is the case, so the argument does make sense and is still used today.
If it had no validity philosophers and some astrophysicists wouldn't use it.
>>56775580
It doesn't defy shit. Spacetime and thus causality space began with the universe. It CAN'T have a cause, due to the laws of causality.
>>56775683
he created everything, why he can make the rules too?
>>56775658
Yes, i know that. Its just OP that does not get that the big bang had a cause and all mutations have one. Be it adaptation to the enviroment or anything else really, from damages to the genetic material to mixing of species.
The only thing that is hard or impossible to prove and explain is what was before the big bang, and how exactly it came to it.
>>56775195
I did read it.
You said I am breaking my rules by saying that God needs a cause.
Which I never said.
If that's not it, what rule of mine am I breaking?
>>56775580
>But I can. And I just did. Several other thousands of millions of people do it every day.
Ok, good, then you can finally accept god is just an idea in your head because it isn't bound by space and time.
>>56775723
oh man let him come, my God the only true one will kick his ass :^)
>>56770613
Okay, here's the truth: let's say you find that something CAN come from nothing according to quantum and particle Physics. Now, you have to wonder, "where did those rules come from that allow that?"
Now, for the god perspective, you have the problem of where it came from as well. Basically, both sides are forever going up a fucking endless rope of shit trying to figure out the next layer of what made the previous layer ad infinitum.
Now, this does not mean you should join an organized religion - if anything, you should move toward something more vague like deism. It definitely does not mean it should dictate your morality, since morality and philosophy can be derived logically. It also means you shouldn't fall prey to fallacies like Pascal's wager. Finally, remember that atheism is simply a lack of belief, not the belief there isn't a higher power.
>>56770613
> nothing created God
> God created everything
Sounds legit.
>>56775638
No it doesn't.
God is the cause not the effect.
No one said God needed a cause, or that everything needs a cause, we said that every effect needs a cause.
You need a cause. I need a cause.
>>56770613
False dichotomy. Try again.
>>56775818
Because God was always there YOU FUCKING DUMBSHIT HOLY FUCK
>>56775658
>Time is a measurement.
What? No. Time is a coordinate. You can't have a point on a coordinate system prior to the origin of said system. That's like suggesting there's something north of the North Pole. Do you know ANY physics?
>>56771592
Hory shet
I'm late, this guy is fucked
>christfag who knows nothing of atheism or evolution
>comes in here pretending to have actually researched and knows how to science. Go to bed faggot
>>56775437
>Kant
Not a physicist.
Philosophical musings about physical laws?
Very ironic that you make a fool of yourself while mocking Americans.
>>56775546
Not without breaking OP's "scientific law" that necessitates a god yet makes miracles impossible in the first place.
>>56775847
Then maybe the universe was always there.
>>56775741
The intelligent creator argument rests on the idea that order has to be imposed on the universe. It rests on the idea that the universe is naturally chaotic. If the universe is naturally orderly, that argument holds no merit.
If the laws of physics are both eternal and sufficient to provide for the order we see in the universe, or if the universe is eternal, or if a metaphysical principle other then an Abrahamic Deity exists, or if causality is not universal, then this entire argument falls flat.
The cosmological argument is not, by itself, enough to prove what you want it to prove. Even if we assume its premises, it stops at
"An eternal principle exists".
There is a mile of metaphysics between that and a "God" in any kind of monotheistic sense, much less a Christian one.
>>56775683
It doesn't break the rule.
I have said this plenty of times and most people ITT understand that.
Every EFFECT needs a CAUSE.
God is the cause, not the effect.
>>56775745
Then God can't have a cause either.
>>56775768
We have said we have the answer to that for thousands of years man, God.
>>56774149
>God is outside of space and time.
You are a pseudo-intellectual.
You will die like everyone else, and never exist again.
OP says
Causality = dogma
Two things don't have causality
This means that there had to be god who is the cause for those two things
It cannot be that he himself does not understant those two things well enough to actually understand the causes that trigger them, and it also cannot be that we don't understand those two thing enough that we have not found the cause yet. IT HAS TO BE GOD!
>>56775924
This is literally stone age thinking. Sky make lightning,me no understand lightning, gods be angry with us.
>>56775805
Atheism asserts that there is no God or Gods.
>>56775924
>Then God can't have a cause either.
The difference being that the universe exists and God doesn't.
>>56775662
Okay you shifted the goalposts. I can adress that Atheists CAN have a SECULAR moral compass. Thomas Jefferson was an atheist. Religion does not equate to a moral compass. There is a correlation between religion and morality not a causation. Morality relies on the individual.
>atheists have no intelligence
Cmon
Nigga
Really
i'm talking to you, dont be a dick. Jesus doesn't like that
>>56775852
Which means it is a measurement because it has a beginning.
We use time to measure things all the time. Like how old something is.
>>56775546
God obeys the laws of physics, dumbass.
>>56775965
>>56775965
top b8 m8
>>56771596
Unmoved mover
>>56775985
Someone is going right into the hellfireeee
>>56775911
That didn't answer my question.
If not an intelligent creator then what is responsible for all of it?
A non-intelligent creator?
We have intelligence. The design of the Universe and how it came to be shows intelligence.
>>56775590
And yet everything you have, and your very existence, is because of it.
Delicious irony. I could eat it all day, like cheese on a burger.
>>56775940
Nice argument.
>>56775965
Correction: Gnostic atheism does that.
>>56775614
>if god is somehow exempt from this causality, so can other things be.
>if birds can fly, so can cats
>>56775800
Your God doesn't even exist, you'll come to regret those.words heathen.
>>56775985
You can't prove that God doesn't exist.
You can't even objectively prove the Universe exists because we only know it exists because of our experience.
>>56776082
No, it doesn't, and that's the point. Yes, my proposal is a non-intelligent 'creator'. The universe is orderly, that does not prove intelligence.
Your argument is basically
1. Everything we know of that exhibits order is the product of intelligence.
2. Therefore all the order we know of that we don't know is the product of intelligence, must be the product of intelligence.
Its self-contradictory in its basic concept. Its entirely possibly that the universe itself is just the sort of place where order naturally reigns, and doesn't need to be imposed upon it from somewhere else. What looks to you like design is merely the result of the natural order of the cosmos under the right conditions.
You can look at videos online of the behavior of crowds, or the formation of snowflakes, and see that although it looks planned, its actually just a bunch of random features aligning under certain laws to create order.
>>56775631
>In a universe where the future can cause the past, your argument makes no sense.
This is where Kant comes in.
Instead of using reason and logic, let's all just pull stuff from our asses.
Intelligent thought is over-rated.
>>56776130
hey, we arent birds and we can fly
or maybe jets arent birds and they can fly
ballons arent birds and they can fly
>>56775827
>You need a cause. I need a cause.
This logical decoherence is why everyone is still assuming you are saying everything is an effect and everything needs a cause which means god is an effect and needs a cause.
>>56776124
There is no such thing.
>>56776165
My God does exist.
That's why I am here talking with you about God patiently and trying to answer your questions the best I can.
>>56770613
Regardless of belief, there are only 2 answers to creation.
Either something emerged from nothing, be it the energy that produced the cosmos, or a "god".
OR
Something has always existed, be it the energy that produced the cosmos or a "god".
That's it. Either something from nothing, or something always existed. Both are equally crazy.
>>56776016
Do you seriously not get it yet? How can there be a time before time?
Causality began with the universe, at t=0. The universe IS the cause, by those very laws of causality you love to throw around without understanding them.
>>56776165
oooh YOUU will regret those words!
you can fight against me but you cant fight against Him. Dont make Him angry bro, you dont want that
>>56776173
Okay you triggered me, have to comment on this. Why is it that when religious people are talking about their dogmas, they are willing to accept the most slippery standards of evidence, but when talking about people contradicting their beliefs, they're almost willing to be solipsists? This has happened to me so many times, I'll be talking to some very religious person, and they'll be willing to use the most tenuous bullshit to support a doctrine, but when you contradict it they become all "Prove the universe exists".
Its maddening.
>>56776173
When you have to resort to sollipsism to defend your beliefs, it's time to stop posting.
>>56776204
No.
My argument is that intelligence can't come from something non-intelligent.
Which follows the law of causality in that you cannot get more out of the effect than you did in the total of all causes.
A dog won't come from an elephant.
Intelligence won't come from non-intelligence.
>>56775638
>You can't just say "he's God so he can defy causality and exist for ever"
Sure you can.
Think of the classic Flatland example. A two-dimensional being would have no way to relate our third dimension to his experience.
Or you could be using caveman thinking. "If I can't imagine it, it can't exist."
>>56771754
Bullshit.
The Hubble effect is suspect as hell when its observations require 90% of the Universe to be dark energy and dark matter. If galaxies rotate faster than gravity should allow then there's probably something suspect about a nearly consistent redshift as things get more distant.
>>56776248
What if God have his own clock created since forever? What if we arent the first universe that He create?
>>56776016
No, measurements don't have beginnings, they have arbitrary zero points of your choosing, you can put the ruler wherever you want or even do it backwards to get inverted negative results and you can probe any two points in a circuit to get a result.
Signals have beginnings.
OP, why is your god more real than Zeus, Vishnu or any other of the mysterious forces humanity have worshipped over the years?
>>56776220
No. Every effect needs a cause. Not everything needs a cause.
Things cannot create themselves.
>>56776346
What if Superman landed in the Soviet Union instead of Kansas?
>>56776320
Your entire argument depends on the notion that intelligence is 'greater' then non-intelligence in all instances. We have no reason to believe that.
>>56775701
>this universe is just another glitch from a discarded attempt at creation?
Why not?
Never limit your thinking, or you'll miss reality.
>>56776302
>Its maddening.
Because some people are probably more genetically predisposed to believe in bullshit like "gods", which means they are more likely to pursue and accept irrational arguments to support their predisposition.
>>56776248
We know there was something before the Universe.
So no you aren't making any sense.
>>56776302
>>56776306
I'm showing both of you that you RELY on sollipsism to argue my points.
>>56776222
>My God does exist.
As an idea, in your head, just like all the other emotions you constantly appeal to in order to create illogical arguments.
>>56776302
>>56776306
Kek, this is perfect. I actually haven't seen this argument much, though, only the first half. Other than that it usually is some shitty argument like "I just believe it," or "I only believe some it metaphorically."
>Simply put, every effect must have a cause
>Eh.. e-except muh god, I mean..
Special pleading fallacy.
>>56776302
It's because religious people constantly have to convince themselves their imaginary friend is real, in addition to convince others.
Why do you think Muslims can't stop saying God is great? They have to convince themselves every single day.
>>56776320
>Which follows the law of causality in that you cannot get more out of the effect than you did in the total of all causes.
Please stop rewriting basic principles of physics to support your beliefs.
>>56776386
lol, you are comparing all the creation to a comic?
you know nothing man, you only know what other people tell you and you cant imagine beyond that
>>56776375
>OP, why is your god more real than Zeus, Vishnu or any other of the mysterious forces humanity have worshipped over the years?
It's not.
It's just as much bullshit as every other "god".
>>56776368
So time doesn't have a beginning?
You are fucking up man.
>>56776396
Uhm, we have every reason to believe that.
Are you saying that intelligence isn't greater than non-intelligence?
Because that is completely illogical.
You are using your intelligence to insult intelligence.
>>56776457
>We know there was something before the Universe.
No.
And holy shit, do you not know what solipsism means either?
>>56775995
>Thomas Jefferson was an atheist.
Wrong, champ. Deist.
>Religion does not equate to a moral compass.
Wrong again. That's the whole point. Maybe you meant, 'doesn't mean a religious person follows those morals'.
>atheists have no intelligence
Well, you missed two obvious things out of three.
But my point is that none of you consider possibilities. You think 'old white man in the sky', dismiss it, and the whole concept of religion along with it.
>>56776522
I dont see anyone praying for Zeus, and indians are stupid anyway
>>56776464
My God is real.
You have to sit on God's lap in order to slap God in the face.
>>56776507
Fanfiction is fanfiction.
>>56776502
That is what it states man.
>>56776541
Uhm, yes. What is the singularity? I'm pretty sure you were the one that brought it up.
It's a theory that only the self is know to exist.
>>56776564
By your logic, the moment the last Christian dies, the Christian God ceases to exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh0M0EG2jKY
Watch this.
>>56776645
The singularity is the universe.
>>56776564
If the g'damn Romans would have done their jobs and just killed all the fucking Jews in the first place, we wouldn't have this g'damn problem with any of these bullshit Abrahamic religions.
But then again, there probably would have been other bullshit to have filled the void.
>>56776595
Well at least im not going to hell
Burn well my friend
>>56776560
Click my ID. Read my posts instead of creating a strawman. i do consider the possibilities. I acknowledge the godlike flatland scenario.
>>56776214
No, you can't.
But Americans invented a machine you can buy.
>>56776489
>>56776476
>>56776457
What pisses me off, is that be5vbFIG is a sorry excuse for an apologist. I mean, if I was theist, arguing in his position, I would actually try and enhance my argument instead of just repeating it.
The same argument he's using here is found in the Summa Theologica written by Saint Thomas Aquinas, and like this guy's, his cosmological argument ONLY proved that SOMETHING had to be eternal. It proved the cosmos had to be finite in time to avoid an infinite regression. That was all it proved.
But, in Summa Contra Gentiles, he expands on the argument, adding argument after argument after argument to add on the attributes of Deity layer by layer, creating a much stronger argument.
This guy is just saying no you're wrong and appealing to solipsism, and it pisses me off because I know intelligent religious people exist and make better arguments than this shit.
He could have issued rebuttals to alternate theories about the universe's origin, expanded his argument to gradually transition from "This vague First Cause" to "God" to eventually possibly even "The Christian God". But no, he doesn't do that. He begins to make a defense for his faith, but the second someone launches a counter-attack and contradicts him, he rushes behind his initial argument which has long lost its strength, and asserts it over, and over, and over again. You know how this argument will end? With someone going to bed, no one convinced, no one enlightened, and everyone convinced religious people are dumb, all because this son of a bitch couldn't bother to even make an honest attempt at a scholarly defense of the Christian Faith.
Its not that hard to buff up this argument, put your back into it.
>>56776522
Demanding near constant praise and worship, like the universalist god of the three middle eastern goatherder arse-lifting religions, is the exception rather than the rule among patron deities.
>>56776457
>I'm showing both of you that you RELY on sollipsism to argue my points.
No, science uses peer review, other people's experience, and direct objective measurement, a god argument is ultimately solipsism and your arguments are always based on reality just being a trick.
>>56776705
No it's not.
>>56776560
>Okay with deism
>Dismisses atheism
top kek, m8
>>56776507
His point is you shouldn't use such specificity when making assumptions (if you can even argue that you should be making vague assumptions in the first place). That being said, this is a particularly interesting point to make assumptions about, since the concept of time and cause/effect being a result only of a universe that possible isn't inclusive to everything is really up in the air and hard to grasp.
>>56770613
Well Christian let me ask why God decided after an infinite amount of time let's say after 80 quintillion years he suddenly decided he needed a bunch of morons to worship him.
Not only that but he decided that more than 1/3rd of these tiny morons on a tiny planet needed to worship him while the other 2/3rds would ignore his very existence.
Fuck off
If god does exist he is a fucking edgy faggot for inventing cancer, down syndrome and plenty of other diseases.
>tfw I actually believe in God but my god is the one from Futurama where Bender meets the bunch of flashing lights deep in outer space. He literally doesn't care about anything or anyone.
>>56776526
In the case of this casuality, "greater" simply means the cause is sufficient for the effect. That isn't so simplified as "Anything human values esteems good must have come from something human values esteem gooder"
>>56776732
>Read my posts
I responded to that one post.
I'm not reading your collected works, champ.
You called yourself intelligent, then were wrong two out of three times.
Don't blame yourself. Blame your environment for not teaching you to think logically.
>>56776757
I'm not an expert.
I never claimed to be.
I'm merely defending my faith.
I never said you guys were wrong, ever, either.
