I have no power and very little knowledge to change abortion laws, but this is how I feel.
I think it's disgusting. I find it impossible to empathize with women who abort their babies. This is their children, almost identical copies to themselves. Their babies who love and depend on them.
>HOW CAN WOMEN DO IT SO EASILY AND BE PROUD OF IT!?
They must have some kind of mental disease. If they were truly raped I understand. But otherwise I really can't understand how women could download his to their offspring. Women can't be the gentler sex. I can't imagine doing it to my baby if I were a women.
Keep me posted
Poo in
L
O
O
>Killing a life form that isn't even human yet and feels no pain rather than giving birth and having it live a terrible life is infinitely worse.
>>56569840
Except it is human. Sure, a developing one, but still human
You can't know it will have a terrible life you stupid Aussie shit I took the bait
>>56569663
It's disgusting, but there would be 20-30 millions more blacks in america without abortion.
>implying this is a human bean
what are you dumb
>>56569663
>this is how I feel.
>I think it's disgusting.
Take your emotions and shove them up your ass. We don't make laws based around feelings. We make laws based around practicality and ethics and liberties.
>>56570606
Are black fetuses black or pink?
>>56570606
this desu
>>56569984
Anything with Human DNA is now Human to you apparently.
Being a Human is something that's earned by living life. If you haven't lived life yet, you're not a Human, you're a thing yet to have a life.
Lets call it what it is and say it's denying a POSSIBLE life, not killing a life already started. As you said you can't know it will have a terrible life, you can't know it won't die 5 minutes after birth from complications either, but you can make *educated* decisions based on the most likely outcome, which is if your life is shit, the child's life will probably be shit too. Why take the chance and roll the dice against losing odds? That's a little selfish.
>>56570747
Purple
>>56570918
I don't give a fuck about feelings, but I care about consistency. I want clear definition about what "living" and "human" are. When exactly should it become murder and why?
>>56569663
It's a secret campaign to lessen the potential increase of population. A country can only have so much human in it that someone somewhere decided that killing babies is okay to slowdown population growth.
>>56569663
I'm more disgusted by the kike blood ritual parading around america like it's modern medicine, and cutfag goyim defending it and inflicting it on their own sons.
>>56570702
>practicality and ethics and liberties.
Of which ALL are abstractions, therefore subject to individual judgement calls and biases, ergo "feelings".
>>56570702
>ethics aren't feelings
>>56569663
>I think it's disgusting
Fair.
>almost identical copies to themselves
No, they're a collection of generic cells.
>Their babies who love and depend on them
Not babies; fetuses. And they don't feel love because they don't have significant brain functions.
>If they were truly raped I understand
Why the double standard? Within your own argument, your points still stand regardless of who the man is.
There's a reason we can't abort after the organism has become more than just a collection of generic cells with no higher brain function. Before then, it is all the same as killing an insect or plant.
>>56571124
I'm with you on this one, American brother. In the UK, we do not have circumcisions in general unless you're unlucky enough to be born into a kike family or have a medical issue with your foreskin.
Male genital mutilation is absolutely disgusting and often overlooked for the (admittedly more barbaric) female equivalent that takes place behind closed doors.
I will NEVER EVER let any child of mine undergo such hideous practices.
I do not consider somebody brain dead to be alive in any more sense than I consider a tree or bacteria to be alive. Therefore I relate human life with the function of the nervous system. Because of this I do not think the value of a human life is realized until the nervous system develops, which is not until about the end of the first trimester. I do not see anything wrong with abortions up to this point. For some time after this point is even a grey area, however those partial birth abortions are pretty abominable.
>>56575321
>Before then, it is all the same as killing an insect or plant.
Insects and plants don't grow into people if left as they are.
>>56569663
>This is their children, almost identical copies to themselves.
do you have any idea at all about how reproduction works? you should probably read an elementary school biology textbook before vomiting your opinions all over the internet
>>56575918
how do you know what will have evolved in another couple billion years?
>>56575918
That's totally irrelevant though. The potential for life is in every single sperm and egg but we don't treat those like they are humans. Women flush an egg every month and if you're a male who masturbates, you're a total hypocrite since you're letting millions of sperm die, all with the potential to become human beings.
>>56576255
>That's totally irrelevant though. The potential for life is in every single sperm and egg but we don't treat those like they are humans. Women flush an egg every month and if you're a male who masturbates, you're a total hypocrite since you're letting millions of sperm die, all with the potential to become human beings.
Sperm and eggs alone don't grow into people if left alone, so that doesn't apply to embryos. Embryos which die of natural causes is a shame, but using that to justify killing them is like saying old people die of heart attacks all the time, who cares if you kill a few?
Also embryos are already alive, and they are human. Abortion is literally ending human lives on purpose. It isn't a potential life at that stage, it is a life.
>>56576476
Why the fuck would you ever be proud to have an abortion? How is that a fucking achievement?
>>56576519
Fetuses cannot survive and grow on their own. Neither can embryos, unsurprisingly. They are not fully formed human beings and therefore are still the same as eggs and sperm.
>and they are human
Citation needed.
>>56576702
>and they are human
>Citation needed.
Well they're alive, and an organism; thus they belong to a species. If you care to name another species which would be more apt a designation I'd love to hear it.
>Fetuses cannot survive and grow on their own. Neither can embryos, unsurprisingly.
Nor can retards or the elderly, the comatose, or women - and yet we afford all the mentioned groups the rights afforded to members of our species.
Hell, a child isn't a fully formed human being and they're incapable of surviving on their own too, do they not get rights?
Further, as medical advances get better, the age at which a fetus is viable gets pushed back. So does the age of personhood also get pushed back?
What if we can eventually grow a fertilized egg outside the womb? Will abortion then be illegal?
>>56576979
>or women
Opinion discarded, didn't read further. Please burrow back into your little hole, misogynistic manlet.
>>56576702
The Developing Human Being
By Keith Moore, and T.V.N. Persaud
7th edition, 2003
From an introductory definition section:
“Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male. Cell division, cell migration, programmed cell death, differentiation, growth, and cell rearrangement transform the fertilized oocyte, a highly specialized, totipotent cell – a zygote – into a multicellular human being. Although most developmental changes occur during the embryonic and fetal periods, important changes occur during later periods of development: infancy, childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25. Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” (p. 2)
>>56576702
“Zygote. This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm during fertilization. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” (p. 2)
“Embryo. The developing human during its early stages of development. The embryonic period extends to the end of the eighth week (56 days), by which time the beginnings of all major structures are present.” (p. 3)
>>56576702
From chapter 2: “The Beginning of Human Development: First Week”
First sentence of the Chapter: “Human development begins at fertilization when a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell – a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” (p. 16)
>>56576702
“The zygote is genetically unique because half of its chromosomes come from the mother and half from the father. The zygote contains a new combination of chromosomes that is different from that in the cells of either of the parents.” (p. 33)
>>56576702
Human Embryology
William J. Larsen
3rd edition, 2001
“In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual” (p. 1)
>>56569663
Thanks to abortions the African American population is in decline. How could you be opposed to this?
>>56576702
Langman’s Medical Embryology
T. W. Sadler
9th edition, 2004
“Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the female gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote.” (p. 3)
>>56576519
>Also embryos are already alive, and they are human.
Female embryos are not human, not even adult women are.
>>56576702
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ykOIQLHzeu
Im going to throw this out there and not respond because I am tired of going in circles with you idiots
a zygote, created at conception, is the first stage of human development
the lack of limbs / intellect is not justification for stopping its development, since it is a human and will grow into an adult, assuming all goes well (like for us)
the legal entity 'person' is something used by government to process a flesh and blood human into the system
it is not the indicator of humanity - merely a distinction between different states in relation to how much they offer the state
to say that a zygote/fetus/human is not worthy of life because -
a. the mother doesn't want to suffer through the pregnancy, or
b. it doesn't have a comparable "mind" yet
is to essentially say "my feelings are worth more than a human life" or "the state has the power to define when you are human and when you are disposable, beyond the obvious community consensus behind the death penalty"
its a selfish choice
even rape victims aren't justified, as you are still murdering the human, you are still stopping the development of another individual
if the pregnancy was just an accident - tough shit, that's what contraceptives are for - and that is responsibility
cry more, feminists
enjoy yelling at a brick wall, im out
;)
You know what's more disgusting? Black people.
And abortion is the No.1 killer of blacks in the united states.
In this case, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
>>56569663
>This is how I feel
>Disgusting
Cool. How about you mind your own business.
>>56569663
>ABORTION is DISGUSTING
But it's maybe a necessary evil.
Without abortion the US would now have 100 million blacks more. Liberal blacks.
I never understood why people would oppose abortion. Here's my take.
If a woman wants an abortion, she's not yet ready to be a mother. So why would you ruin the kids childhood with a shitty and irresponsible mom just because you don't want it aborted?
How is it not infinitely better to not bring down society with another teen mom and a fucked up kid? Why not let the woman grow older and have kids when she actually intends to? How does that not amount to a better family?
>>56577290
>misogynistic
Welcome to /pol/.
>>56577626
>I never understood why people would oppose abortion.
Especially since it kills offspring of liberals.
>>56569663
I agree, it's not very nice. But I still support it.
>>56577758
My argument wasn't even considering women and their "rights"
I'm speaking strictly from the point of view for a better society and healthier children.
>>56577501
Life begins at erection.
>>56577942
grade school level meme bro
do you honestly not understand this most basic of concepts?
>>56577511
Correct you are, thank you for noticing my error.
>>56577626
>a kid would rather be dead than have a less than perfect childhood
i guess you would support the gassing of all kids in orphanages then?
OP why is having an early abortion much different than flushing your cum rag down the toilet? How can you do that so easily? You're just doing it for fun for fuck's sake.
And anyway, so what? So what if you think it's disgusting. You don't really care. You don't think these women are actual murderers, you aren't actual upset in the way you would be if a real baby died. You just find it a bit icky but you probably find most parts of a woman icky.
>>56569663
>but this is how I feel
That sounds so fucking important and objective.
Abortion is great. Having unplanned kids sucks.
>>56569663
holy shit you're a faggot.
>Their babies who love and depend on them.
dumb faggot
>>56578140
Hahaha holy shit how are those even comparable?
>>56578169
>why is having an early abortion much different than flushing your cum rag down the toile
back to school for you champ
sperm/ova != zygote
I believe it is okay to kill an infant until they begin to form permanent memories, which is around age 3.
>>56578297
because you're making the argument that a kid would rather be dead then have a shitty childhood
>>56578297
You are denying someone life based on the assumption the suffering they may or may not have in their childhood is worse for that individual than death
P S Y C H O P A T H Y
S
Y
C
H
O
P
A
T
H
Y
>>56578352
Fetus isn't a kid
The census doesn't count them. They don't have any human rights under any law. Everyone says "we have two kids and one on the way" instead of "we have three kids"
This entire debate boils down to "are fetuses humans?" to which the answer is no.
Abortion allows degenerates to insure their bloodline will not continue.
f1. Only a degenerate would abort their child
f2. Only degenerates then suffer any actual repercussions from abortion
s. Abortion should be encouraged, as it only harms degenerates.
>>56578494
>This entire debate boils down to "are fetuses humans?" to which the answer is no.
that is scientifically incorrect and quite disingenuous ;)
they are most certainly human
what they are not, are a person
there is a difference, try and comprehend, yes?
>>56577568
>to say that a zygote/fetus/human is not worthy of life because -
>a. the mother doesn't want to suffer through the pregnancy, or
>b. it doesn't have a comparable "mind" yet
>is to essentially say "my feelings are worth more than a human life" or "the state has the power to define when you are human and when you are disposable, beyond the obvious community consensus behind the death penalty"
You realise this is not in any way a valid argument right? The conclusions doesn't even follow.
This is the form it is taking at the moment
1. Only humans are deserving of the right to live
2. Something which has no moral or legal recognition, has no sense of identity, and cannot survive on its own is not human
Your conclusion: I HATE BABIES KILL THEM
Actual conclusion: A fetus is not a human therefore destroying it is only a medical issue
>no functioning higher brain
>no mind
>a person
Lel nope. A fetus is an unthinking clump of cells. Its no more sentient than a plant.
>>56578604
>A fetus is not a human
Talking out of your ass son
a fetus is most definitely a human
the word you're looking for is "person"
>>56578434
I thought you were done posting?
>>56578659
that is old copypasta written about 3 years ago after this debate got old and would not progress beyond going in circles
try not to get hung up on it too much now ;)
So my completely accidental pregnancy (condom broke, allergic to the pill) should have ended in me leaving University to live off welfare to raise a child I never wanted
I was 4 weeks along. Not even remotely anthropomorphic and I have to throw my life away for it? I have to hate this child for ruining my career in science as well as my boyfriend's career in Engineering?
Would rather raise a loved child later in life than a child I would detest for the rest of its existence because it ruined mine.
Get fucked fetuskeks
the mid 90's want their debate back
who fucking cares
fuck babies
>>56578303
So you can't come up with an argument? Because the answer cannot be "well this is zygote and this isn't" because a lot of OP's arguments like "you can't kill a baby it's a copy of yourself" and "it could grow into a baby that will love you" still apply to sperm.
If you really don't give a fuck about sperm but for some reason the instant it becomes a zygote you feel it's murder then you've got some explaining to do. If that 1 second old zygote gets flushed out immediately do you also want to hold a funeral and give the mother grief counseling?
>>56578597
Nice meme tier response. If only you were as good at thinking as you are at shitposting.
>>56578787
adoption exists
that and personal responsibility
no one is likely to blame you or really care, but to suggest that what you did was not stop a human from progressing into adulthood, stopping its life, essentially murdering your child..... whatever helps you operate I guess ;)
>>56578724
my mistake, i should have realized it would be nothing but pasta by your flag
>>56578649
Uh huh, is a sperm human?
>>56578494
so why try and make the argument in this post
>>56577626
trying to reason the murder away by arguing the kid would rather be dead than have a shitty childhood?
see, if you genuinely thought a child in the mother's womb wasn't a human, you wouldn't have tried to argue your way through it... you would have just said from the start "it's a fetus, not a human" without the bullshit reasoning
same deal with women who state they think a fetus is 0% human, but then when they have the abortion, they mourn the death, like it was an actual baby.... you know deep inside the holocaust that abortion is.
>>56578804
mate the argument is that you are woefully under educated if you think that sperm and ova are comparable to a zygote
have some science:>>56577464
>>56577441
>>56577404
>>56577364
>>56577348
zygote = new human dna
yes, it is not a person
but it is human
>>56569663
I have to agree. Even when I tried being pro-choice, I still had a twinge of revulsion toward women who admitted they have had abortions.
>>56570687
That's not even close to what an 8 week fetus looks like.
>>56578811
>meme tier
want to explain why it is meme tier and acknowledge the points or are you just out for suppression of logic that doesnt fit your worldview?
>>56578891
>implying the arguments are less relevant
obviously its not spam because you didnt know it was pasta until I told you ;)
>>56578898
are you an idiot? Or just being facetious?
>>56579005
>>56569840
You try to raise you kid to not grow into a /r9k/ or wizardchan whiner
Babies are disgusting. If I got pregnant today I'd abort that before I even talked to the father about it, desu.
Not only do I not want a giant parasite inside of me, I don't want a person I raised to be loose in the world for the next 60ish years. That'd be bad for everyone, kid included.
>>56579005
None of those quotes really answer trickier philosophical questions which is the nature of the debate here. Yes in a sense human development starts at the combination of an egg and a sperm but that doesn't imply you have a human yet and it's easy to argue that development starts before that.
If I'm building a chair then it is being developed when I start making one of the legs. It doesn't just begin when I start attached them to the seat. So it's really not clear that a sperm is not also the the beginning of "human development" except that in some instance it goes to an egg and in others it goes into your toilet (in which case there is clearly no human development). Which is what can happen to a fetus as well.
You really need to come up with an argument as to why the 1 second old zygote is of so much value but the sperm 1 second before is worthless or why the OP's arguments also do not apply to sperm.
You don't have the skills to do this, so that's fine. I'm just pointing out the issues you are dealing with here.
>>56579339
>giant parasite inside of me
this is what progressive tumblr tier legbeards look like /pol/
they are here in force and and have been here long enough to pick up the lingo
still no closer to convincing people of your position ;)
Lol at all the idiots... 23 chromes isn't human... 46 definitely is... libs need to go back to school.
I don't care if women kill their babies.... I'll just go from interesting chick to hmmm
.. no respect for her offspring. .she murdered them... enjoy your Starbucks
People are just pathetic. lol
>>56579425
>Yes in a sense human development starts at the combination of an egg and a sperm
A scientific objective 'sense', yes
>that doesn't imply you have a human yet
It is human dna
you are interchanging 'human' and 'personhood' as if they are the same thing
they are not
>You don't have the skills to do this, so that's fine. I'm just pointing out the issues you are dealing with here.
Condescension and pretension are masks one wears to hide the fact they cannot meet an argument directly ;)
personally abortion isn't enough.
We proper depopulation methods.
If the usa disappeared that would be enough
>>56569663
I'M AN AMERICAN EXPAT
The only people who choose abortions do it because they were raped, the baby has some sort of serious defect (mental or physical), or because they don't want the child (irredeemable degenerates of society). In none of these instances should the baby occur, so I have no issue with abortion. Think about all the niggers that don't exist because of abortions? Think about all the derps we don't have because of abortions?
Abortions are fine.
>>56578889
And what, spend nine months carrying around a child I don't want so people can whisper things behind my back?
"Whore"
"Bet she doesn't know who the father is"
"Fucking stupid slut"
Just to appreciate a few cells?
Lmao I'd rather be a murderer. And as someone who has a friend who was put up for adoption, I would never, EVER fucking do that to a kid. I'd rather it never became sentient enough for that.
>>56569663
Exactly how many un-aborted will you personally take in and fully support financially without any government assistance? That's what I thought, now shut the fuck up.
>>56579766
>Lmao I'd rather be a murderer.
Obviously, I mean you did get the abortion
> And as someone who has a friend who was put up for adoption, I would never, EVER fucking do that to a kid.
>death is comparable to adoption because of mah anecdotes
P S Y C H O P A T H Y
S
Y
C
H
O
P
A
T
H
Y
fucking legbeards, man
I dont believe for one second these women don't believe they've killed their own children. .. they just don't care.... stay away from psychotic batches haha
They get all depressed about it in 15 years when they realize they fucking murdered their main biological truth.
Let the idiots be idiots. Only put your dick in pro life women. Unless you want to be powerless to stop someone murdering your son or daughter.
>>56579907
I agree with her.
Maybe if men got pregnant you would change your mind
>>56580029
That's because you're a literal closeted fag that needs to white knight so that you can feel at ease having passed yet another of lifes obstacles.
Also pretty psychopathic too. "These women I would some day like to bang's feelings are much more important than human lives"
k bro
>>56580029
Yes because death is always preferable to any kind of life experience, the good and bad. Well since you believe that and probably don't care for an afterlife..just kill yourself? Practice what you preach.
>>56579603
>Condescension and pretension are masks one wears
>;)
>;)
>;)
actually laughed a bit
>>56579907
Well idk dude did you have a kid in lieu of a fulfilling life? Did yourself or your girlfriend, out of a pure accident and not negligence, end up with the potential of having a kid at nineteen? If you are older than nineteen, how would your life have been disrupted and what experiences would you have missed out on because of your kid?
You can call me what you'd like, but I don't regret my decision. I am completely aware that I basically stopped a person from coming into existence, but it's either that or driving myself and a child into a pit of despair and hatred
>>56579603
Sorry honey. That's not what the scientist would say. For ease of communication he says that human development begins with fertilization and it's true that a sperm on its own will never become a human. But if you said "is it objectively true that human development begins at fertilization" he'd just shrug his shoulders and say it's a philosophical issue not a scientific one.
It's like when you are making a cake. When does cake development begin? When the wheat in the field is growing? When the egg is growing in the chicken? When I've got an egg in one bowl and some flour in the other? Or is it only when I've started mixing them together.
You might not care if I threw some flour in the bin but you might care if I took the cake mix out of the oven and threw it in the bin. You'd call it a waste of cake.
You say that a zygote has human DNA but a sperm does not, so what kind of DNA does a sperm or egg carry? Half human DNA? How are you defining human here?
>>56580195
;)
Bring any counter points while we're all jovial?
>>56569792
Atleast you tried.
>>56580149
Human life is disgusting and wasteful.
Depopulation needs to get us back down to half a million
>>56580189
Life and death are just words.
Morals don't matter.
>>56580312
you're a faggot ;)
>>56580278
I'm sorry you made the incredibly stupid choice to murder someone that merely needed 9 months of your time. Money is a non issue next to your own child's life. It's a shame you fell for the rhetoric. Too bad for you, that's one less person to tell you they love you. Sounds to me you needed that most of all. Cheers!
>>56580548
Hypocritical of you since you are ok with genociding non whites and would murder a black guy in cold blood.
/pol/ is hypocrites
We would kill you in real life
>>56580278
Adoption exists.
>I am completely aware that I basically stopped a person from coming into existence
right. Enjoy
>>56580283
You're making up a hypothetical situation and talking in place of a scientist as though you have that credibility. Actual scientists:
>>56577348
>>56577364
>>56577404
>>56577441
>>56577464
a zygote is a new human dna
sperm and ova are obviously carrying the dna of the individual it is taken from
it is not hard to understand
they are all individual cases of human dna
sperm = one persons dna
ova = one persons dna
zygote = one persons dna
its the first stage of human development. It is not a person yet because it does not look like us and that is a term tied to government. I am going in circles here.
also its quite obvious you're a woman.
>>56580427
>Human life is disgusting and wasteful.
>Depopulation needs to get us back down to half a million
thanks for the tip bro
at least your true colours are shown?
>>56580438
the lbfm making my dinner before a bj says different hombre
>>56569663
>I find it impossible to empathize with women
who woulda guessed?!
>>56569984
It's not human.
>>56580633
I never said that lol grasping at less than air. I think you've got me confused with another poster.
>>56580548
When was money mentioned?
>>56580755
You did.
In other threads around /pol
I used to be very good at exposing hypocrisy in pol by looking through people's post history back when we had perma IDs
>>56580672
>ctrl-f (You)
>the lbfm making my dinner before a bj says different hombre
no it doesn't ;)
>ctrl-f (You)
>>56580633
>We would kill you in real life
who is we, bub?
>>56580823
Most people use money in reference to poverty to excuse themselves from accountability when executing their own offspring. I was heading it off at the pass.
>>56580900
Except that I didn't ever say we need to go around executing black people. You're a classic lib and an idiots it seems.
>>56569763
>>56580934
This aint r9k ;)
>>56580939
The rest of the world vs pol
>>56581045
Yes you did.
Your simply lying now. Pure and simple.
>>56569984
It will have a bad life. Birth itself is a bad experience. From there on there will be more and more suffering, the negatives will outweigh positives. It's better not to be born at all.
>>56581057
pendulum seems to be swinging towards nationalism champ
even netanyahu acknowledged this by trying to get on the "good" side early
>"Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews," Netanyahu said October 20 at the 37th Zionist Congress, according to a transcript on his website. "And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here.'
>"'So what should I do with them?' (Hitler) asked. (Husseini) said, 'Burn them.'"
>>56581108
So let's see here..... lib makes a slanderous accusation and expects me to prove them wrong when they've given zero evidentiary support to their initial slanderous claim. Back up further discrediting with any defense submitted as lies.
Seems to be in order for a liberal. How's that brain not working out for ya?
>>56580672
>You're making up a hypothetical situation
What the hell are you talking about? There is a scientific and a philosophical debate here. You are trying to use science to answer the philosophical debate.
Let's look at the cake again. Obviously it's only when the egg and flour are mixed and it is put in an oven that a cake is really being made. The ingredients on their own are not development of a cake.
Yet clearly we consider all the stages before baking the cake to also be "making a cake".
It's the same with a human. In a scientific sense human development only occurs when fertilization has happened because a human will not develop before this happens.
Equally though a human will not develop until a sperm has been released in some form. So here is the philosophical question about when human development begins and it is not something you can answer with science and it is not a debate a scientist would have.
You then have to seriously answer why it's okay to flush sperm but not okay to flush a a fertilized egg.
You are only going in circles because you are not equipped to engage with the philosophical issue at hand. Which is fine. Nobody judges you.
>>56581614
You're a fucking retard mate. You have shifted the goal posts to a "philosophical and scientific (lol)" debate after it became abundantly clear you were talking out of your ass in regards to the nature of a zygote, human dna and person hood. I am not going to stay here all night arguing the same points over and over with some second year uni queer that thinks his paltry observations are silver bullets, I literally have better shit to do - like battling remote control robots I imported from my last holiday with the gf. Have fun being an "intellectual" now ;)
It's murder for convenience. The fact that it's happening and so many people are cheering it on and are making excuses is horrifying.
>>56581614
They don't know this because they're not taught science in the liberal arts, it's all about muh feelings, muh safe space, muh baby murdering privilege!!!
Don't try, they're so wrapped in their own ignorant circular logic that they will NEVER escape. They were indoctrinated by far more brilliant minds than they.
>>56581810
Okay so you're throwing your toys out of the pram? It's okay. Go about in your real life. Nobody has to know your failure on the internet.
There has been no "goal shifting" and I haven't changed my argument at all. I haven't actually disagreed with you about any of your copy and pasted science. You just cannot understand the argument you are being presented with because you don't understand the argument you are trying to put forward which is not in conflict with the point I am making.
>>56581614
>You then have to seriously answer why it's okay to flush sperm but not okay to flush a a fertilized egg.
No, that's just you being retarded. The sperm will never grow into a human on its own. The fertilized egg will.
See the difference?
>>56579742
>The only people who choose abortions do it because they were raped, the baby has some sort of serious defect (mental or physical), or because they don't want the child (irredeemable degenerates of society). In none of these instances should the baby occur, so I have no issue with abortion. Think about all the niggers that don't exist because of abortions? Think about all the derps we don't have because of abortions?
>Abortions are fine.
The problem is only semi-responsible people have abortions. People who don't give a fuck, don't, thus increasing their density in the population.
>>56582387
Only so long as you give the egg the conditions to continue to grow. Which is no different to the sperm.
>>56582156
had a quick run with the toys but its a little late for all that noise. Well done on provoking this response though ;)
>It's the same with a human. In a scientific sense human development only occurs when fertilization has happened because a human will not develop before this happens.
>Equally though a human will not develop until a sperm has been released in some form
What are you actually saying here? That ejaculated sperm is a new human? Or that fertilization needs sperm to occur?
if it is that ejaculated sperm is a new human - then you're an idiot. This is why I am not bothering with continuing this discussion.
If its the latter - yes, sperm is fundamental to the formation of a zygote. Whats your point?
You're either saying something wrong, or something very obvious, casting it as a philosophically based argument then calling me a dunce for not addressing something that is nonsensical. Fucking uni students man
>>56582512
>Only so long as you give the egg the conditions to continue to grow. Which is no different to the sperm.
No, wrong again, you don't have to "give" those conditions to the egg at all.
You have to not take them away.
Big difference.
>>56582860
Concession of this fact would mean getting over his ego, he sounds way to young and head strong for that. Take solace in the likely end for him being closer to our ideals due to continued rumination as he matures.
>>56582947
too*
;)
>>56575491
Damn straight.
Fucking cunt women talk about how an uncut penis freaks them out,
They would scream if I said an unmutilated vagina was gross.
>>56582636
This entire debate is in relation to the OP's point about why he feels uncomfortable about abortion. My argument is that they apply equally to sperm so he should feel equally disgusted about flushing them down the toilet.
The argument is whether or not it is morally acceptable to kill sperm if you feel it is not morally acceptable to kill the fertilized egg (whatever you wish to call it at this point).
You wanted to say "A zygote is a human, a sperm is not. Scientists say that a zygote is when human development begins, so anything before that does not fall under the same moral issue because it is not human."
As I've point out though the question, philosophically speaking, of when human development begins is not so easy as "when an egg is fertilized". If it turns out that human development would include your sperm then purposefully creating sperm just to kill it should disgust you as much as killing the fertilized egg.
If you're just arguing that "a zygote is a human being and a sperm is not" then obviously I cannot argue with you. That is not the argument OP put forward though. At least not in those words.
>>56583232
Did you know that spermies and eggies only have half of a person's genome? A zygote has the entire genome of a brand new person, so it can be pretty confidently said that this is when the development of any given person begins.
>>56582860
That's just a semantic argument. How about in IVF, are you not giving it those conditions then?
At what point does the frontal cortex become active? Shouldn't that be the point at which life is considered to have begun? Before that point it's essentially a vegetable.
>>56583232
>As I've point out though the question, philosophically speaking, of when human development begins is not so easy as "when an egg is fertilized". If it turns out that human development would include your sperm then purposefully creating sperm just to kill it should disgust you as much as killing the fertilized egg.
You're a fucking retard.
A sperm merely carries a copy of some of your DNA, it is no different to one of your skin cells in that regard. The human body copies its cells constantly, and when you're full grown a million of them doesn't make a huge difference because you have trillions of cells.
The difference is a fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus is a human with a unique set of DNA and destroying it destroys all such copies of said DNA, rather than just .001% as in the case of jizzing in a rag.
>>56583232
what you're talking about is the philosophical debate behind the beginning of personhood, not humanity
the human element is pretty objective and down to science
you are hiding behind the ambiguity and unwinnable nature of philosophy to obscure issues that really arent related.
If we are to switch terminology for "person" instead of "human", then your argument is still faulty because of what this anon is pointing out: >>56582860
it is a different situation.
In the end its a bit of a "glass half full or empty" thing - but much more relevant considering the scenario of contention revolves around the choice for another humans life
but to be completely honest family I am tiring of this debate, its always going in circles with people who either can accept the science or like you who obscure the terminology of person / human etc
never ends
hence the copypasta ;)
>>56569663
It's mostly niggers. Relax.
>>56583482
>this is when the development of any given person begins.
then why do they not get any rights under law if they are a "person"? they are not their own person until they vacate the womb.
>>56583787
I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure murdering a pregnant woman is often charged as double homicide. Also, just because someone isn't given rights under law doesn't mean they aren't a person.
>>56583546
A vegetable that would eventually recover.
That's basically what abortion is morally equivalent too: pulling the plug on an individual that would certainly recovery provided life support wasn't withdrawn.
>>56569663
Children have no personality until they are over 1 yr old ffs. They are barely human until then.
Abort a 10 wk fetus?
Easy.
>>56583951
>That's basically what abortion is morally equivalent too: pulling the plug on an individual that would certainly recovery provided life support wasn't withdrawn.
This.
>I know you're going to recover in about 9 months, but I don't want to look after you when you're better so I'm going to pull the plug.
>>56569663
The entire world is disgusting, and the alternative to abortion is often worse.
>>56583918
>murdering a pregnant woman is often charged as double homicide.
Yes because "muh delicate little flower"
>>56570918
It's not just human DNA, the fetus is genomically 50/50 of both parents, so it's a unique human being.
>>56583559
I don't disagree with what you've said. I'm not sure how any of it relates though.
>>56583598
When did I "reject the science"?
In this instance the difference between "human and person" is irrelevant. If I switched to person it would make no difference to my argument. You are confusing this with a different debate that would come further down the line about whether it is okay to kill a "person" or a "human". Which is not the one being had here. The one here is about whether or not it is wrong to kill sperm because, basically, it could grow into a human or a person. That doesn't really matter.
The reason you are going in circles is because you have started some tangential debate which is sort of irrelevant to the one I started with, but as is the nature with 4chan I continued to argue with each point you made despite both of us knowing it had nothing to do with the point I originally made.
>>56583951
>A vegetable that would eventually recover.
But that's the point, they are nothing more than a person only in potential that that point. They are no more of a person than the child that would have been born if I hadn't used a condom last time I had sex.
>>56569663
Did you know that high tier autism and downs is an icreasing retard combo.
Lil shits are basically dumber apes, should those really be born "for the white race"
>>56584075
Okay, doesn't that show at least some recognition under the law to a fetus' right to life? It's not consistent, but there are cases where it seems to be acknowledged.
>>56584184
>or like you who obscure etc
>You are confusing this with a different debate that would come further down the line about whether it is okay to kill a "person" or a "human". Which is not the one being had here. The one here is about whether or not it is wrong to kill sperm because, basically, it could grow into a human or a person
This is an argument made on the assumption that there is no distinction between sperm and a zygote because "potential" trumps and differences. Well if we are to go down that route, what calls for a stopping point? Anything you say would be arbitrary and made with the intention of padding your beliefs. We could say that literally everything in existence is of value comparable to human life because they contain atoms that will one day be recycled for use in a human body. Its naive.
Get a fucking education mate.
>>56569663
Female animals kill their offspring, too. I don't give a shit what a woman does with her body nor her offspring. If you're a man, sorry, females have the vote that matters. If you have a problem with that, fuck someone else
>>56584410
any differences*
>>56584196
Maybe you just shouldn't be having sex if you aren't willing to risk having a baby fuck
>>56584624
You're saying as if every action a person does is logical. Guess what, it isn't
>>56584184
>I don't disagree with what you've said. I'm not sure how any of it relates though.
The point is that abortion eliminates a unique human being from existence, whereas jizzing in a rag does not - thus it is incorrect to compare directly the death of sperm vs that of an embryo/fetus.
>>56584196
>implying you have sex
>>56569663
degeneracy op, pure and simple. This is the beginning of the end of western civilization, which is literally rotting from the inside out.
>>56584410
Your phrasing is a little bizarre (or maybe I'm just too stupid to get it) so I'm assuming you mean something like:
>If you're going to argue about when "human development" really begins then you could go back to a single atom
Well, possibly you could. You can reduce a lot of metaphysical debates down to that kind of level. Especially when you are talking about identity.
>>56584691
>some people act illogically
>therefore the law should respect their behaviour
?
>>56584736
That really depends on what level you are comparing them.
>>56584829
The point is that the earliest stage something can develop into an adult human if left alone is a fertilized egg. A sperm, on its own, doesn't have the ability to do this even potentially. The earliest you could point to something and say "Aha! Here is a new, unique individual human" is at conception.
>>56584829
its more
>if you're going to argue about when "human development" really begins but don't draw a distinction between a zygote, sperm or ova because they all carry the same potential for a human life, then you could go back to a single atom because of their fundamental relevance to a human being".
>>56584794
I'm married, of course I don't have sex.
>>56584858
Abortion is here and it's here to stay. Deal with it. No amount of you crying will change that.
>>56585087
>Abortion is here and it's here to stay. Deal with it. No amount of you crying will change that.
You don't get to make that call faggot.
>Hurr I only like democracy when it's in my favour, then it should stop.
>>56585087
discussion is how these things change. Its a swinging pendulum, back and forth, back and forth :)
>>56585002
>the earliest stage something can develop into an adult human if left alone
And there's your problem.
>>56585011
Yes you could. Such a view would have fairly nihilistic implications though. I believe it's called mereological nihilism.
>>56585382
I am an all or nothing kind of guy
>>56585382
>And there's your problem.
Wherein lies the problem?
>>56585188
But I do. I'm a woman.
>>56585729
B-but animals can't vote?
>>56569840
>not human
I think you mean not an adult, anon. It has human DNA, as well as human anatomy.
>>56569663
Masturbation is disgusting. I find it impossible to empathize with men who abort their sperm. This is their children, almost identical copies to themselves. Their babies who love and depend on them.
>>56570918
>it hasn't lived a life yet
So, what is "living the life?"
Do only successful people qualify as humans?
Are the only humans capable of having children rich ones?
If that's your way of thinking, then you're going to be outrun by the rednecks that don't give a shit if they're poor or not, and the people in poverty are just going to increase while GCBs keep aborting their children because "muh future"
>>56585822
They don't need any votes when they can just kick your ass. Ask the emus
>>56571124
Being bitter won't make your dick larger, anon. It was going to be small anyway.
>>56586038
Emus have a worse KDR than even Russians. Wouldn't expect a woman to understand though.
P.S. I hope one after many beatings, beheadings, dousings in acid, etc. that voting in people who let in a bunch of violent shitskins was a mistake. And that you're among the aforementioned, of course.
>>56569663
Look I hate to bring religion into this but I also don't hate to.
Because a pretty large amount of Americans are atheists, or "Christian Scientists", everyone believes in evolution, global warming, etc.
Education is done by the state's, but because of a Federal court ruling, we now teach the Big Bang instead of the Bible in schools. We've also implemented Common Core and No Kid Left Behind!
Conclusion: The government wants us all to be retarded robots bat apathetically kill our children because "life sucks anyway"
>>56586440
>P.S. I hope one day after many beatings, beheadings, dousings in acid, etc. your gender realises* that voting in people who let in a bunch of violent shitskins was a mistake. And that you're among the aforementioned, of course.
>>56585851
>unironically thinking that sperm is equal to a fertilized and partially developed egg
>>56585729
Men should have a say if the child in question shares their DNA, stop being a roastie whore
>>56571079
Well you're in luck, because the laws around abortion are all quite clear.
It's based on brain development.
>>56585851
Isn't it a lot worse. One life lost from an abortion. Potentialy millions life's lost from masturbation
>>56586658
>Canadians
Jesus get the fuck out.
>>56582947
Pretty much this.
I am pro-abortion. Not pro-choice, pro-abortion. Talk people into it. I hate children for the most part and the vast majority of parents these days are single mothers raising shitty kids who grow up to be shitty people.
I don't kid myself though, abortion is the willful act of taking a human life out of convenience. So, yeah, it is murder. I am fine with kids being killed just so I don't have to deal with them in public acting like little shitheads.
>>56586658
>abortion laws
>in Canada
Is this a new meme?
>>56586603
But you don't, we all know that
If an embryo doesn't have a brain, is it still considered a 'person'?
>>56586874
>Replying to an American
Wasn't talking about Canadian law
>>56587075
Only if mummy says so!
>>56586475
Are you seriously complaining about mandatory education?
>>56587184
Well seeing as he's an absolute mongloid he probably also complains that mom doesn't change his diaper twice a day like he needs
Maybe we should legalize rape. I don't agree with it myself, but that doesn't mean it's not okay for someone else!
>>56586853
fucking edgelord coming through
>>56587434
No, objectively bad things should be banned. Like rape and guns.
:^)
>>56587908
>>56587473
Meant to reply to this confused young gentleman.
>>56586475
>Because a pretty large amount of Americans are atheists, or "Christian Scientists",
Do you even know what Christian Scientists believe? Or that there's only 106 thousand of them in the US
160 thousand out of 300 million sure is a large amount
>>56587908
Murder is objectively bad? Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
Agnostical atheist here.
Abortions should be banned, pro-choice propaganda should be a reason to go to jail.
Canadian feminism is fucking retardness and Canada will be french soon.
Lwow is Poland.
Thanks for attention.
Also I seriously can't understand how people could be so stupid faggots so they are talking something good about pro-choice. Retards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUL4tMXYSvg
>>56588337
no problem senpai
>>56577290
>/tumblr/
>>56576979
>they are alive
>they can't live on their own
Pick one idiot, or did you not go to highschool? Viruses aren't considered living beings because THEY CANT LIVE ON THEIR OWN. They need a host and as such aren't alive.
>not realizing fetuses are LITERALLY BY DEFENITION parasites
So the life of a undeveloped fetus is more important of the life of a woman?
For a woman, no matter what het age is, giving birth means that het life stops
>>56591729
>>not realizing fetuses are LITERALLY BY DEFENITION parasites
Please do show me the definiton.
I expect it in the form:
Fetus
noun
Literally a parasite
Dehumanising others is what people do when they want to not feel bad about killing someone. See: your post.
>>56579074
Is a sunflower seed a sunflower?
No. Its a sunflower seed. Not a sunflower. A seed isn't a flower at all. It doesn't do photosynthesis, its not colorful, have a stem, or have pollen. Its not a flower its a flower SEED.
>>56592282
>>Is a sunflower seed a sunflower?
>>No. Its a sunflower seed. Not a sunflower.
>Is a sperm a testicle?
>No. It's a sperm. Not a testicle.
Btw, with the seed analogy, a fetus is most like a sprouted seed.
It's a step in-between the seed stage and a full plant, but all the major systems are pretty much there.
>>56592282
>argentinian education
>>56588205
I too am against capital punishment.
>>56592578
>is a sperm a testicle?
The other guy was right you're just a meme poster no point in arguing with someone as dumb as you
>>56592762
How so? A sunflower produces seeds; testicles produce sperm.
>>56592578
How long after conception is it a fetus?
>>56592930
About 2 months. Aka 2/3rds through the first trimester.
>>56592919
A seed will grow in the right environment, it's basically a fertilized egg. Sperm is more like pollen. A sprouted seed is a newborn.
>>56593146
>A seed will grow in the right environment
Seeds have to be fertilized, but I'll give you that sperm is more like pollen.
A sprouted seed is a fetus as it isn't able to support itself and relies on energy provided by the parent plant, which is in the seed.
>>56569663
>Being against minority populaction control
>>56569663
Women are not the gentler sex, they are the weaker sex. cruelty is derived from weakness.
>>56593539
>>Being against minority populaction control
It only kills the responsible ones, like contraceptives.
This is not desirable.
>>56593539
if you want to kick niggers out kick them out fucking pussy, dont pretend this passive aggressive woman shit is helping you
>>56570687
That's a miscarry
Fetuses aborted aren't taken out in one piece.
>>56593641
>Less nonwhites
>Not desirable
Aussies truly are the masters of shitposting
>>56593716
>Population control
>Less minorities
>Not helpful
Fuck off, Texas
Also, if you want to have an objective basis of your morality you should be fine with abortion before the fetus develops a nervous system, as before then its merely a clump of human cells whose components are arguably similar to what could be used in laboratory experiments.
>>56593857
The proportion of nonwhites in your country is abysmal compared to mine, and compared to when abortion was ruled constitutionally protected. Your argument has no merit.
>>56580548
Damn, well said.
>>56569663
>eww human blood and guts are gross
>>56569663
>This is their children, almost identical copies to themselves.
Wat? Were you even raised by your biological parents?
>>56580548
>Too bad for you, that's one less person to tell you they love you.
This is a pretty petty argument. I mean, it's typically desperate attention whores who get pregnant just to have someone who will love them "for real". Unsurprisingly, both the kid and the mom end up miserably, shitty people.
Anyway, babies consume more than just 9 months of time. Pregnancy and childbirth is probably the most routine yet damaging thing women do to their bodies, and being pregnant itself is no cakewalk.
>>56576095
>thinking evolution is real
>believing the scientific jew
>>56576655
Feminism is fucking retarded
>>56569663
it's mostly niggers who are doing it
>>56587155
Underrated post
OP, when you scratch yoself badly you kill more cells than when a woman aborts an embryo. You are a foul hypocrite.
>>56577511
Queen Elizabeth sent England in to a golden era of exploration and wealth
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/philosophical/responsibility.shtml
Basically the argument goes:
>a person should accept the consequences of risks that she knowingly and willingly takes
>a woman who willingly has sexual intercourse knows that she takes the risk of bringing a foetus/moral >person into existence
>therefore a woman who becomes pregnant should accept the pregnancy as the consequence of taking >the risk involved in sexual intercourse
>therefore the woman has a duty of care to the foetus/moral person
>therefore she should allow the resulting foetus/moral person to be born
>therefore she should not abort the foetus/moral person
>The power of the responsibility argument can be seen by changing genders. Most people would apply the argument that sex has consequences to men without any worries at all.
>Once a man has parted with his sperm he is considered totally responsible for any pregnancy that results, and for the child thereafter. Few people would think it morally right for the man to demand an abortion in order to escape his responsibilities.
