As far as it goes, isn't the new pope just secularizing the main religious concepts even more? The reason Protestantism began in the first place is because Catholicism was secularizing, cheapening and prostituting them. I've seen many Catholics on pol say things like "No... You protestfags simply don't get that we are far ahead of you all!". But look at what the Pope is doing. Isn't he secularizing the shit out of everything even more?
I remember that Kant tried to avoid exactly what is happening (and has been happening), is there really any way to deny it? Now my question is, how can Catholics defend that secularization? Do you people realize that at some point you will simply start completely discarding concepts once they get cheap enough? For example, you discarded the concept that Jesus Christ is enough to save you, and you started claiming that we need to save ourselves with works. If that is not prostituting your most valuable concepts, then I don't know what it is.
And finally: Why is Protestantism considered heresy among some people here again? If it is just trying to avoid the imminent cheapening of Christianity? I want to understand both sides of the argument.
I'm an outright atheist but I respect Christianity and am well versed in its scriptures.
I HATE these novus ordo heretical heresiarchs. Their denials of established dogma, their condoning of paganism, Marxism, homosexuality, and other blasphemies angers me.
I think there's a link between the Dalai Lama and the modern 'popes' in their abandonment of traditional faith in favour of the modern, relativist conceptions of egalitarianism and pacifism. Different religions but the same phenomenon.
People such as these fake popes are abandoning traditional ethics for the lies that freedom and equality are INHERENTLY good. Hopefully there will someday arise a movement to restore the proper understanding that equality and liberty are only good when they serve the higher cause of faith, family, and civilisation - and that there are times when equality and liberty can be merely destructive and evil.
>>55513991
>equality and liberty are only good when they serve the higher cause of faith, family, and civilisation
Faith, family and civilization also aren't inherently good.
>>55513991
* I meant to say I think the Dalai Lama has been a bit similar to the modern popes in that he's more Marxist than Buddhist., just as the popes are more Marxist than Christian.
>>55514064
I can concede that some faiths are bad. But when is it bad to uphold the causes of civilisation or proper family life?
>>55513561
>For example, you discarded the concept that Jesus Christ is enough to save you, and you started claiming that we need to save ourselves with works.
Lmao what?
>>55514096
Same as when upholding liberry and equality is bad. When doing so leads to bad results despite good intentions.
>>55513561
>Why is Protestantism considered heresy among some people here again?
Because it is, by definition, heresy. Not to say that the current Catholic church isn't heretical as well.
>>55514106
That's the first thing most Catholics here say when they argue that Protestantism is heretic. They claim that Protestants don't care about works and that they won't be saved because without works one can't achieve salvation. Saying that is pretty much the same as saying that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough.
Works are something that come naturally.
>>55514187
>Because it is, by definition, heresy.
And why? You just answered my question by repeating it without an interrogation mark at the end.
>>55514152
I suppose it would indeed be wise for social conservatives not to be careless or arrogant when upholding standards of behaviour, since their conception of society, and their methods for enforcing correct behaviour could be flawed. And then as you say, good intentions, bad consequences.
The point I was trying to make is that equality and freedom should be viewed as pragmatic means to inform and strengthen human civilisation, families, and prosperity. I think the left makes the mistake of viewing equality and liberty as an end in itself, which is the root cause of why the left overall makes things worse.
>For example, you discarded the concept that Jesus Christ is enough to save you
"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' " - Jesus of Nazareth, c. 30 AD
>>55514241
NT explicitly says faith + works.
>>55514540
>>55514663
The passage states: "Every tree that does not bear good fruits is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, BY THEIR FRUIT YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM."
Your works are NOT saving you. Jesus is doing that. Your works are simply a sign of what Jesus did in your life, they come naturally. If someone is not producing said works, then that means said person didn't really "embrace" the whole concept. My point is, while Protestants think that works are important and necessary for a Christian because it's a sign of your faith, Catholics think that we need to save ourselves with works.
I guarantee to you, many people who only had faith (but didn't have, say, the opportunity to do any works) will be in Heaven, see the criminal that was crucified next to Jesus. And many people that did amazing works but never had faith will go to hell, because it is impossible for us humans to save ourselves, you definitely NEED Jesus' grace.
>>55514463
>I think the left makes the mistake of viewing equality and liberty as an end in itself, which is the root cause of why the left overall makes things worse.
Well...
I have always though that Left is all about "Ought", and Right is all about "Is", as in "is-ought" ethical terms.Left has a vision of what ought to be, how we can improve society and try to work towards that goal, but often lose sight of "Is", of practical limits and consequences. Right, on the other hand, hold down-to-earth, pessimistic views of human nature, are very aware of "Is", and suspicious of any attempts to change status quo. But they often lose sight of what ought to be, of the fact that unless we strive towards some ideal we are little better than animals. Because of that, Right is prone to mistakes like appeal to nature and Social Darwinism.
>>55514838
How can one not have the opportunity to do good works?
And it's faith + works, not faith alone. James 2:26. Clear as day.
>>55515516
>How can one not have the opportunity to do good works?
See the criminal that was crucified next to Jesus as an example. He never had the opportunity to do works as he converted during the last few minutes of his life. And he got into Heaven by Jesus' grace alone.
You say it's "faith + works, not faith alone, clear as day", so explain this to me:
"“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." - John 3:16-18
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)
"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
Here's my favorite one, this one literally BTFOs you and your speech:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
"THROUGH FAITH"
"NOT A RESULT OF WORKS"
"GIFT OF GOD"
>>55515677
>What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
>You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.
"Faith without works" is a false concept. If there are no works, there is no faith. Even the saved rebel displayed his faith by rebuking the other.
>>55516555
>If there are no works, there is no faith.
Congratulations, you are now a Protestant. You now realize that works are not saving you, it's faith. And it's simply impossible to have faith and not feel motivated into doing works. If someone says they are believers but just keep their arms crossed, then they are most likely just lying to themselves and don't really believe in it. It's literally what the passage I mentioned states, you are saved through faith, not through works.
Benedict was making attempts to turn the church back and evangelize in Europe again. This pope is content to let Europe become an atheist and muslim shit hole.
Why is not the Catholic church attempting to get a foot hold in Sweden or Denmark?
>>55516822
>If someone says they are believers but just keep their arms crossed, then they are most likely just lying to themselves and don't really believe in it.
>most likely
So what if they're not? "Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror." Are you telling me that if Jesus appeared in physical form in front of everyone in the world right now, they would all be saved just by merit of being unable to disbelieve?
I question what, exactly, you think Jesus's ministry was about. The Jews already believed in God. Do you really think he came down just to say "Now you also have to believe that I'm the Son of God in order to be saved, but that's it"? Do you really think Jesus's challenge to people thousands of years after his death on the cross was "Just believe that this event that can't be proven by proper historical evidence happened and you'll go to heaven LMAO"?
>You now realize that works are not saving you, it's faith.
The problem is that "faith alone", as promoted by Protestants, is NOT faith. It's just belief. And most often it's used as an excuse to be selfish and lazy, or as part of their weird obsession with referring to the Catholic Church as being Satanic despite doing the most in this world to carry out Christ's mission.
>>55517165
"Faith" under that context means believing in Jesus AND accepting him as your unique and sufficient savior. The grace of salvation is given to us, not to demons (which also refused God and His grace). You are supposed to have faith that Jesus will save you and you have to wish that and repent, not just believe in his existence.
Protestants say that you only need faith because as the Bible itself states, faith (under the same context I mentioned previously) is accompanied by works. It's a GIVEN. Do you have to tell the trees "produce fruits"? No, fruits are produced naturally by the good trees, it's the same logic here. Actually, wasn't Jesus the one who said this? The whole "you don't have to tell trees to produce fruits" thing? Either that or someone else, but my point stands
Faith without works is empty faith. The RCC and the Lutheran Churches in Germany have written up a statement in the 90's that says exactly this. Luther himself said that works are the result of faith. That is nothing else than St. Augustine.
>>55517588
This, pretty much. Catholics should stop thinking that we have to save ourselves with works, only Jesus can save you. Works are a given for those with faith.
>>55517384
Yeah, but there are different ways though works manifest. Starting or running a homeless shelter is much different than giving free Bibles and Fruit Roll ups to victims of Hurricane Katrina.
Works and faith being almost secularization keeps them equivalent, whereas prioritizing faith leads to hollow symbolic ritual.
The big mistake the Church made was teaming up with America to defeat communism. It turned out American international capitalism is almost as evil as communism. Thankfully Francis is moving away from the Americanism heresy (hence why kekservative Americans are so mad at this pope)
As far as Protestantism goes. It was an excuse to loot church lands and legalize usury, it's not much of a real religion
>>55517713
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
>>55513561
Reminder, Protestants are heretics, praying to god alone will not save you, Jews pray to god and get nothing, only forgiveness from Christ and his followers can save you.
>>55517384
>"Faith" under that context means believing in Jesus AND accepting him as your unique and sufficient savior
>AND accepting him as your unique and sufficient savior
Define how this is distinct from believing. Because it sounds an awful lot like the philosophical intent here is trying to squirm your way into saying "you have to believe AND be a good person" without having to actually commit to doing any good in the world.
As an American Catholic I get pretty tired of Baptists and the like telling me I'm going to hell because "you haven't accepted Jesus as your personal savior", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean.
>>55518074
They're saying "you should only pray to Jesus because Jesus is fallible and shouldn't let others forgive you"
>>55518074
>Define how this is distinct from believing.
Demons believe that Jesus exists too, and so do Satanists. You have to believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior. Like, you have to LET him save you, repent your sins and embrace the whole idea.
>>55518377
But Jesus is in Heaven.
Why would he listen to you in heaven?
People want to be forgiven by someone who has the power to forgive and is here on earth, Jesus does have the power but just praying to him doesn't make your sin go away.
>>55518600
"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
"And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”"
>>55518748
>yet he gave Peter the power to forgive and let him have others have the power to forgive so that the faith can grow
gg, huecunt.
>>55518821
Note that you are just assuming Peter was able to pass his power to others.
And I don't see how someone getting some powers remove Jesus' ones. Jesus literally told us to confess our sins to him and he would forgive us. See the passages. Calling me a cunt won't make what you are saying true.
>>55518945
So that makes Jesus fallible.
If you that's what your implying then you aren't a christian.
>>55518995
>strawmanning that hard
I already told you what I had to. If you still want to deny it, well, I did what I could and planted the seed.
>>55519073
No, what you told me was the Christ our lord was fallible.
Shut up you fucking heretic.
>>55518945
>Note that you are just assuming Peter was able to pass his power to others.
Remember that part about "and the gates of hell shall not overcome it" ?
>>55519214
How does that translate to "you can give that to anyone you want"?
>>55519284
Easy, he wants people to be forgive of sin.
He knew that when he goes to heaven that he couldn't personally say you are forgiven.
Why do you think Judas is in hell?
>>55518377
>Like, you have to LET him save you, repent your sins and embrace the whole idea.
Aside from the concrete idea of repenting, this still sounds too buzzwordy to me.
Like, I'd understand your position if you said "all you need to do is believe in Jesus and repent your sins", but clearly there's another element there and I'm struggling to see how the hidden element isn't just "you need to do good works or at least want to do good works if you're somehow completely unable to". That seems to be what "embracing the whole idea" might entail.
>>55518600
>>55518748
I am more ambivalent on the topic of confession and absolution of sins. It's a good institution that makes people feel better and gives them a concrete way of asking forgiveness, but I'm not entirely convinced by arguments for its necessity. I think it does a good job of teaching children the basics of keeping God in their hearts if nothing else.
>>55519414
>Why do you think Judas is in hell?
The fate of Judas is unclear.
I think Pope Benedict held a speech on it
>>55519284
Are you retarded?
>>55513561
>20fucking15
>Not part of master race Latter Day Saint a.k.a. Mormon church
>>55519524
What I'm trying to get across is that you have to consider Jesus as your ally, simply being aware of his existence is not enough. You have to align yourself with him. It's not a hidden element, it's basic logic, believing in Jesus but hating him would get you nowhere for example.
>>55519414
Read the Bible, anon, he can still forgive you
>>55519524
>but I'm not entirely convinced by arguments for its necessity
Do you think a degenerate who has gay sex, lets niggers cum inside him, burns children, shoots up heroin, yet he prays to Jesus and magically all of his sins are gone should go to heaven?
No.
>>55519636
But I do, and I don't take every word from it as literal fact. If you do, you are retarded.
>>55519636
So if a massmurdering rapist considers himself Jesus' ally he will be saved?
>>55519717
>I do, but I don't take it as a fact
And that is the problem. It's what I said in the first post. Secularism. The Catholic church secularized, cheapened and prostituted Christianity by making no one take the Bible seriously anymore.
>>55519775
Stop twisting my words, I'm not English native so it's hard to write a perfect sentence.
Take Hitler as an example. If he legit believed in Jesus and honestly repented from his sins and begged for forgiveness by the end of his life, he'd go to Heaven. But did he really do that? Honestly, I doubt it. Killing 6 million people is the sort of thing you don't regret, most times.
>>55519636
>What I'm trying to get across is that you have to consider Jesus as your ally
Okay, what if I believe in Jesus and consider him my ally but spend my whole life being an absolute shithead in his name?
Doesn't it make more sense that you have to be an ally to Jesus yourself?
>>55519717
>Do you think a degenerate who has gay sex, lets niggers cum inside him, burns children, shoots up heroin, yet he prays to Jesus and magically all of his sins are gone should go to heaven?
Explain how that's different from "saying it to a priest and magically all of his sins are gone and he goes to heaven."
I'm a Catholic and go to confession regularly but this is a point worth thinking over carefully.
>>55519995
As i imagine it, what matters is sincere repentance, and confession is a mechanism that supposedly helps you sincerely repent.
>>55519846
But the Church isn't Secular. The Church believes in Christ our lord.
Only following the bible makes you an idiot, it's like making a house with only a hammer.
>Honestly, I doubt it. Killing 6 million people is the sort of thing you don't regret, most times.
So that means to you, that Jesus is fallible.
>>55519995
Because a priest can tell you what you can do to make things right and repent, and you shall be forgiven, and if you do it again, the last time you went to confession and the time you do it again shall be voided.
>>55520162
By this point you are only throwing the sentence "YOU ARE SAYING JESUS IS FALLIBLE" as a buzzword, is that a bait attempt or what? I literally never said that, this is just a plain strawman
>>55520229
It's not a buzzword if it's correct.
You just said that praying to Jesus will make your sin go away.
Yet in the next post you said that Hitler who did pray to Jesus will be in hell, even though he did what he had to do.
To me, that sounds like you think Christ is fallible.
>>55520331
Do you really think Hitler thought what he did was a sin? My point is, if Hitler regretted it and asked Jesus to forgive him, he is fine. But did that happen? Hardly, he basically thought he was doing a good thing to humanity.
>>55520387
>Do you really think Hitler thought what he did was a sin?
Yet you just said that he thought that he was a friend of Christ.
And removing Juden isn't a sin, god would understand.
>>55520472
>And removing Juden isn't a sin, god would understand
It's literally written in the Bible that thou shalt not kill.
>>55520502
It's thou shalt not murder.
>>55520612
>he thinks what Hitler did was not murder
And Jews were not the only ones that died in the holocaust, how bluepilled can you be?
>>55520672
>act of war now equals murder
>buying into the holocaust meme
>>55520717
>it's not murder because he's a politician who told other people to kill them
>the holocaust is a meme, but saying it is not real is the truth xD
>>55521071
And I quote
Numbers 21:2
And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If you will indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.
(New Jew King)
