>he's not a Stoic
>he lets himself be governed by material desires, his emotions, and how other people feel
Is Stoicism the most redpilled philosophy?
Postmodernism is the most redpilled philosophy, silly.
>>55472628
>posting a made up quote by Marcus Aurelius
>a fedora tipping reddit one
It seems like the reddit exodus have started.
Kid, reading wiki is not enough, pick up Meditations and read you nigga.
>marcus
>stoic
thats adorable
Buddhism is more red pill than stoicism.
How other people feel doesn't affect your thoughts or behavior? So you're autistic.
"Now departure from the world of men is nothing to fear, if gods exist: because they would not involve you in any harm. If they do not exist, or if they have no care for humankind, then what is life to me in a world devoid of gods, or devoid of providence? But they do exist, and they do care for humankind: and they have put it absolutely in man's power to avoid falling into the true kinds of harm."
Nice try, atheist scum.
Stoicism> Buddhism
Buddhism is about numbing yourselves from pain and pleasure whereas Stoicism is about how to deal with it
>>55472722
>Postmodernism is the most redpilled philosophy, silly.
Kill yourself, so I can resurrect you and kill you personally with muh dick.
>>55473209
It sounds like your description is literally the exact opposite of how it really works.
>>55472628
>implying stoicism isn't just the ideology of being a "good dog"
>>55473209
>American education
>>55472965
Actually, I've read both the Meditations and Epictetus' Discourses.
Marcus Aurelius did write a quote similar to that, but throughout his work he always referenced his belief in the gods.
>>55473168
>How other people feel doesn't affect your thoughts or behavior?
Only if you let it. You have a choice.
Sextus Empiricus > whatever shit you learned in phil 101
>>55473119
>le poo in loo hindu heresy maymays
Russell Brand detected tbqh
Stoicism is the philosophy of machines, not of human beings. It necessarily involves numbing yourself not only to great tragedies but also to great pleasures, it makes the valleys shallower but also the peaks lower.
If your only goal for existence is to avoid harm, to pad yourself, to isolate yourself, take to stoicism, become hard, so hard in will and body that the world is something you could do with or without.
But if you are human, and desire the richest depths of experience, good and bad, if you will accept the greatest of pains and tragedies just to see the highest heights of pleasure and intoxication, of triumph, if you will remain loyal to the earth, then Aristotle or Nietzsche offer much more fulfilling philosophies.
>>55473389
Oh holy shit someone who isn't retarded on /pol/
I can't help but feel that Pantheism is one of your best bets.
Yeah, Stoicism is the best philosophy there is.
>>55472965
Epictetus is the best Stoic philosopher. Marcus Aurelius is more popular because he was a Roman Emperor, but in terms of philosophy, Epictetus is better.
>>55473168
>How other people feel doesn't affect your thoughts or behavior? So you're autistic.
No. You learn that the opinion of other people is not important.
>>55473582
>>55473352
I don't know if you guys know this, but normal people are supposed to take in the opinions and feelings of other people and consider them when they think or do anything really. It doesn't have to be strangers, but if you don't care what your family or friends think or feel you're an asshole or autistic.
>>55473389
That's silly. Is this some kind of reverse Epicureanism?
>>55472628
>muh living on in memory of loved ones.
What a shitty consolation prize. All my loved ones will eventually die, it's unlikely that my Grandkids will even remember me.
>>55473582
There's two sides to this. Integrity necessarily demands a certain rigidness, a refusal to budge without good reason, but someone who utterly eschews all attempts to persuade him or rectify his behavior is a fool who cannot adapt to the changing conditions of life. Besides this, honor is very enjoyable, moreso if you earned it with good reason.
So many of these stoic doctrines boil down to the fact that the great things of life require subtle distinctions and tightrope walking, whereas immunizing yourself through sheer willpower is easy by comparison, and frees one of suffering.
There is something to be said of that kind of willpower, but as someone who used to follow a very stoic philosophy, I cannot help but admit it does numb oneself to greater things.
>>55473742
Realistically, the actions in your life affect the entire future history of your descendants. Not only that, you picked up mannerisms from your dad that he picked up from his father and so on.
>>55473726
No, I am saying that stoicism is a philosophy that takes the conditions of life, and chooses a path through them based on hardening oneself against all extremes of stimuli. It is a life that minimizes both pleasure and pain through extreme hardiness of mind and strength of will.
But there is another philosophy, that takes the conditions of life, and engages them, that accepts the pains that will necessarily come as a challenge, and therefore indulges in the heights and depths of life.
Or in laymans, I'm recommending virtue ethics and eudaimonic philosophies as viable alternatives to stoicism.
>>55473906
You know that suppressing all emotions, both negative and positive is not good for you right? Like it's profoundly unhealthy.
>>55473990
Stoicism doesn't teach total suppression of emotion, rather it teaches unconditional sobriety, mindfulness, and extreme moderation of all emotions to minimal levels.
The stoic isn't someone without any emotional responses, its just someone whose pulled in all his responses to the bare minimum in order to make his passions easier to control. Stoics still laugh, they still have "fun", they still work towards goals, just with a very tamed state of mind.
Only the Ori are true Gods. Sorry.
>>55473722
>>55473755
>I don't know if you guys know this, but normal people are supposed to take in the opinions and feelings of other people and consider them when they think or do anything really. It doesn't have to be strangers, but if you don't care what your family or friends think or feel you're an asshole or autistic.
You do your best for your friends, family and everyone else. But what they think of you is not your problem. It is their problem.
Suppose you have a daughter. You raise her to the best of your ability.
Your daughter loving you is not the reward for this. This is something that you have no control on. Raising her to the best of your ability is your reward.
>>55474242
Extreme moderation of all emotions to minimal levels is profoundly unhealthy. Those emotions don't dissapear. They need to be vented or used or they will result in neuroses or even physical symptoms. What the fuck is even the point? To tell yourself that you're tough because you don't enjoy things like other people do? God this would be something someone on /pol/ would subscribe to.
>>55474317
What your family and friends think of you is fucking your problem. This is highly selfish and pointless.
>>55473906
If you become really wise, you will always be the happiest you can be.
>>55473990
Stoicism is not the suppression of emotions. The suppression of emotions is the philosophy of Tokugawa Ieyasu.
>>55472628
Stoicism is the quinessential ancient version of kekoldery.
It demands no reaction to improve terrible and often malicous conditions in life, but simply to accept them.
If you want to learn where stoicism will take you, maybe you should read of the life of cato the younger, a very famous and extremely devout stoicist until he killed himself because he couldn't handle the disgrace of living in Caeser's rome.
What was even more ironic, is that while he was a rampant political enemy of Caeser and the new birthed roman empire, Caeser himself was intent on allowing him to live, harboring no hate for him.
So much for that awesome "I'm above you all and nothing can affect me if I pretend it away" autism.
>>55474495
Moderating your emotions so you express them as little as possible is suppressing them.
>>55472628
>accepting the state of the world and only controlling your passions
>not saying FUCK THAT and head butting reality right in its fucking Jew nose
Gotta go full on Gurren Langan in this shit, bruh.
>>55474398
The stoic path is based on handling mental problems through mindfulness and reflection in combination with emotional minimalism. Its entire focus is based on the idea that you cannot control the world, but you can control your responses, so you should focus all your efforts on controlling yourself. Total self-mastery is the goal of the stoic as manifested in the ideal of the Sage, whose happiness is based entirely in reflection upon the Truth, manifest Virtue, and petty pleasures of affection and the animal life.
I do not think its the ideal philosophy, because it lacks vitality and is ungodly boring, but its not horrible by any means.
>>55474642
Self mastery can be achieved in much better ways than suppressing all your feelings.
>>55474562
>It demands no reaction to improve terrible and often malicous conditions in life, but simply to accept them.
Stoicism is a philosophy that enjoins one to live a virtuous life, so there's no mandated passivity.
I follow sonic philosophy. Gotta go fast.
>>55474495
Stoicism above all is about being prudent and having self control. It's about knowing of and living by the virtues. It's about not letting the life and other people uproot and hurt you by being the master of yourself.
It's not about being a robot or a sage
>>55474242
That is Epicureanism, not Stoicism.
>>55474398
>What your family and friends think of you is fucking your problem. This is highly selfish and pointless.
It is not. It is their problem.
Let's take a non-stoic situation for a non-stoic problem.
Suppose you have a daughter. She wants to drink with her friends in a frat party. You, as a concerned parent, forbid her of doing so and have her study. She will hate you, at least for today.
Should you feel bad about it?
>>55474719
Moderating your emotions to minimal levels and handling the fallout through introspection is not equivalent to psychological "suppression", which is a dubious concept in any case.
Though I will agree with you, someone like this has a more healthy way of life.
>>55474587
Tackling the world head on, fighting through suffering, striving for great things, loving even if it means losing, in short, a life of heroic passion, strikes me as a far grander way to live, if you've the stomach for it.
>>55474562
>It demands no reaction to improve terrible and often malicous conditions in life, but simply to accept them.
Incorrect. Stoicism tells you to not care about things you have no control over. You have control over your living conditions.
>>55474806
Epicureanism is a similiar philosophy in that its ultimate goal is effectively peace of mind, but the way it carries it out is different. Epicureanism is a form of hedonism based on eschewing pleasures with a high cost while maximizing those that do not bring pains afterwards.
Stoicism is a philosophy of self-mastery through controlling one's responses through lessening the passions. Its attitude towards pleasure ranges from indifferent to hostile.
>>55473990
not being completely in thrall of your emotions is not the same thing as suppressing them
>all this talk of virtues
>all these deontoligists
Virtues are but a heuristic to bring about goods.
>>55474843
This; what's the point of living if you don't leave behind a good story? Regardless of if it is one remembered only by your wife who will outlive you for but a year more, if it is known by heart by the entire world, leave behind a story.
>>55474562
That's not true.
You could also read about the life of Arrian. The Epictetus pupil that became a great Roman governor, the best historian of his lifetime, a great general and a great geographer.
>>55474843
I'm telling you right fucking now, it's well known in the psychological community that suppressing any emotion forces it to be expressed in some other way. They don't go away, they build or they come out somewhere else. It's not a dubious concept, it's very much well known and real.
>>55474806
If your parents don't like what you're doing or advise against you doing something, you should fucking listen to them and take their emotions into account.
>>55474989
He's talking about suppressing them to the point of minimal expression. Telling yourself that your emotions don't guide your thoughts and behaviors is lying to yourself and borders on delusion.
>>55474995
>This; what's the point of living if you don't leave behind a good story?
What is the point of leaving behind a good story?
>>55475123
>What is the point of leaving behind a good story?
None besides that which we give it. If this world is but what we make of it, let us make it good. Personally, I consider good stories to be good.
>>55475086
And I am telling you that that is a lie even if you accept the ridiculous nonsense that is modern psychology.
The stoic approach to emotion is not suppression, it is sublimation, aiming at turning one's emotional responses from extreme feeling and violent eruption into more sophisticated responses through the practices of mindfulness, introspection, and so on.
Stoicism is not about saying "Well I'm going to simply pretend I'm not feeling this" its about saying "Why am I feeling this? Does it benefit me to feel this? How can I resolve this feeling so that I stop feeling this?"
>>55475123
Because you have a very limited life and have no idea when it will get taken away from you. Trying to be as cold, calculating and emotionless as possible all the time for some internalized sense of superiority or control is pointless and a waste of life. You're going to enjoy things as much as you can for some bullshit reason? Give me a break
>>55475086
>If your parents don't like what you're doing or advise against you doing something, you should fucking listen to them and take their emotions into account.
I don't think you understood my point.
>He's talking about suppressing them to the point of minimal expression. Telling yourself that your emotions don't guide your thoughts and behaviors is lying to yourself and borders on delusion.
You:
Emotions => Thoughts
Stoicism:
Thoughts => Emotions
There are two different ways of seeing the world.
Also, I would like to remind you that CBT is actually a watered down version of stoicism.
>>55472628
I love that /lit/ via /his/ is spilling into /pol/ of all places.
>>55475263
>Trying to be as cold, calculating and emotionless as possible all the time for some internalized sense of superiority or control is pointless and a waste of life.
That's not the point of stoicism.
>>55473260
not at all most real Buddhists avoid society and abstain from wordly pleasures whereas Stoicism has been more practical even influencing CBT primary therapy in treating psychological illnesses
>>55475260
Okay man. Believe what you want. Keep telling yourself that forcing yourself to express positive or negative emotions as little as possible has no bad effects on your personality and mood.
>>55473389
>it makes the valleys shallower but also the peaks lower.
That's my normal mental state desu senpai
>>55473389
>If your only goal for existence is to avoid harm, to pad yourself, to isolate yourself, take to stoicism, become hard, so hard in will and body that the world is something you could do with or without.
That is not what stoicism is about retard.
>>55475086
the emotions just happen. one can no more suppress emotion than one can convince himself that sugar isn't sweet, but that's not the point. emotions are subject to reason, which is the seat of agency. just because one feels an emotion doesn't mean one must instantly act it out. that's for animals.
restraint is not suppression. suppression is pretending the emotion doesn't exist. that's denying the direct evidence of the world and unreasonable. restraint is acknowledging the emotion and considering the best course forward. the idea is discovering how to be virtuous despite one's self
>>55475260
>The stoic approach to emotion is not suppression, it is sublimation, aiming at turning one's emotional responses from extreme feeling and violent eruption into more sophisticated responses through the practices of mindfulness, introspection, and so on.
This. If anything Buddhist one is path is suppression. Buddhist philosophy evolved from the extreme pain/misery/and suffering Buddha saw as a Prince saw under the terrible Hindu caste system
>>55475326
Where do they get this idea that stoicism means being an emotionless robot?
If you don't know anything about Stoicism why pretend like you do? ask questions let people direct you to a few works you can read
>>55473119
Stoicism and Buddhism are good companion studies honestly.
>>55473389
What would you say of someone who wishes to endure whatever suffering life throws at him, but does not care for pleasure or intoxication, if only so that he may be strong enough to serve and protect others.
>>55473209
Kill yourself if you actually believe this
>>55475346
Its not a matter of truth merely, from a psychological perspective, you are wrong.
There is a concept in psychology called sublimation, which is
"a mature type of defense mechanism where socially unacceptable impulses or idealizations are unconsciously transformed into socially acceptable actions or behavior, possibly resulting in a long-term conversion of the initial impulse."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_%28psychology%29
So even if you are arguing from the perspective of psychological "science", you are incorrect in saying that immediate emotional release is the best way of handling your emotions.
Personally, I am not stoic, I do not think stoicism is the best philosophy. I let my emotions flood over, and control them through guiding, aiming them at grand happiness and simply bearing any tragedy that comes my way, rather then render myself with only minimal feeling.
But to imply that stoicism is somehow depraved, or harmful, is just plain stupid no matter what perspective you're arguing from.
>>55474295
What about the Goa'uld?
>>55475498
So lets say you're at a really good concert. Are you not going to smile and dance?
>>55475558
People probably think Spock is a stoic or something.
Luna Lovegood is a stoic, in a sense.
If you like manga/anime, Kirame Hanada is a stoic.
>>55475610
No one until you was arguing for sublimation. All I heard before was suppression. Sublimation makes perfect sense and is one healthy way of handling your emotion.
>>55475555
>uddhist philosophy evolved from the extreme pain/misery/and suffering Buddha saw as a Prince saw under the terrible Hindu caste system
The caste system is to be blamed for human suffering, illnesses, aging, and death?
Are you fucking retarded or what?
>>55475590
then you're living for an emotional peak from maximum suffering, which is fine but you'll ultimately be a slave to that which metes out the most pain.
>>55475590
I'd call him a fool, life is not about serving and protecting others. That kind of life is also inhuman, and foolish. You can't make yourself a martyr to the world. You should do as much good as you can while pursuing your own greatness and happiness, but trying to be some hero who saves everyone is not wise. You'll just burn out.
>>55475555
I wouldn't call Buddhism suppression either. Its Middle Path eschews that kind of thinking.
>>55475481
The goal of stoicism is acknowledging what you do and do not have control over, and seeking to react accordingly. It tends to view pleasure as irrelevant, ignore and suppress pain, and seek a "happiness" based in contemplation and virtuous living.
It is effectively a philosophy based around lessening [but NOT REMOVING] your emotional responses.
>>55475498
What is the fucking point of suppressing positive emotion? I really have no fucking clue why that crosses someone's mind as a good idea.
>>55475642
sure, where is there a better place for smiling and dancing than a concert?
i probably wouldn't do that shit at an orchestral concert, though, because that's not appropriate for the venue. but similarly, i have control whether i smile and dance or not.
same way i don't just shit on the floor where i stand as soon as i feel the need to take a dump
>>55475700
You heard it because you wanted to hear it. Stoicism, as a school of thought, argues for sublimation through the practices of mindfulness and introspection. That is what stoicism is. It does not argue for the total removal or suppression of all emotion. Those who say such are misconstruing the philosophy.
>>55473389
this
I want to live like a machine, call the cops; I don't give a fuck
>>55475848
>. It tends to view pleasure as irrelevant
No.
>>55475680
I don't watch anime but I got the Spock reference.
The core message I received when read The Discourses by Epictetus was that if you want a good flow of life you shouldn't let the world make you feel like your not in control your a rational person use reason to live a good life by being virtuous and a realist.
>>55475801
Only if that suffering were to make me a better man.
>>55475848
>life is not about serving and protecting others.
How is it not? To live for yourself is to accept, and even welcome, your mortality. To live for others is to immortalize yourself through your deeds.
>That kind of life is also inhuman, and foolish
What kind of life is human, then? A selfish one where you always act in your best interest? There are greater things than me.
>but trying to be some hero who saves everyone is not wise.
I can damn well try.
>>55475988
He just dun checked his privilege
>>55475929
restraint isn't suppression. we are subjects, not objects
>>55475988
People, you are always in control just realise it
>>55475967
So being a normal person? What scenarios are we talking about where someone would suppress their positive emotions?
>>55475978
Well that is not how it was presented at first in this thread. What you're saying makes sene.
>>55476112
Restraining your emotion is suppressing your emotions.
>>55476046
mortification of the flesh is a long and hallowed tradition in the catholic church. return to the bosom of christ brother
>>55476046
The noblest type of human life is one where one finds a way to pursue one's own self-interest by aiding in the self-interest of others. That is a royal philosophy worthy of honor and respect.
If you want a good example, look to Job at the beginning of his story. A rich happy man who made a life for himself through strength and industry, did no one unfairly, and enjoyed his life.
Trying to be the savior of the world, not ever caring about your own wants, your own desires, your own happiness, it the philosophy of a machine, its not the life of a person its the life of a phenom-
I'm sorry I just realized this conversation was turning into Fate Stay/Night and had to stop and laugh.
>>55472628
>living a life free of materialism
>stoicism
I think you mean Buddhism friend
>>55475749
>The caste system is to be blamed for human suffering, illnesses, aging, and death?
much of the suffering during the time of Buddha was because of Hinduism. It was more of a reactionary movement against Hinduism which is apathetic towards all human suffering as it is still today. i.e. People are predetermined suffer because of their Karma or the sins they committed in their previous lives (see: Reincarnation) He developed his philosophy on aging, death, etc came later in his life
>>55476234
I was raised Catholic, and while I appreciate and adore the community it creates and fosters, it is not for me. The only thing which I make myself a subject of is man and his will.
>>55476123
>When would you suppress a positive emotion.
Literally any time you need to act with moderation or temperance would be an example of "suppressing" a positive emotion. Stopping at 3 beers when you would gladly drink more is an example. Working out when you would gladly sit idly is an example. Etc
>>55476123
>So being a normal person? What scenarios are we talking about where someone would suppress their positive emotions?
Suppose you really like a vase. It is the best damn vase ever. You should remind yourself that it is just a vase and not put too much value into it. Otherwise, when your grandson breaks the vase, you will feel bad.
>>55476123
well, if by "positive emotions" you mean "good emotions" there's no reason to restrain them. but good becomes bad when there's too much of it. like overeating or being a drunk. now you're damaging yourself in the pursuit of pleasure. what's good about that?
If you're not motivated by material desires then you're just a tool for people who are.
>>55473119
they are very similar
>>55476281
Epictetus wrote that it's best not to put to much value on external things if you wan to remain in control of yourself and align your self interest with being virtuous
>>55476160
>Restraining your emotion is suppressing your emotions.
A buddhist would say that by observing the emotions for what they are; transitory states, bodily reactions to stimuli, ultimately not real in an objective sense, you acknowledge that emotion, but don't let it ruffle you, for better or worse.
It's not really restraint as in suppression, it's not being bound to the emotions you're feeling.
The difference might be too subtle to understand if you've not practiced meditation and actually felt the difference. It's a long shot between whiteknuckling anger and just realizing you can let your anger go and think rationally.
>>55476393
>If you're not motivated by material desires then you're just a tool for people who are.
If you are motivated by material desires, you are a slave for money. Someone not motivated by material desires is free.
>>55476123
also, not being able to control your enjoyment of a thing is pretty much the definition of autism. like loving my little pony so much you fail to notice how much of a fucking freak you've become.
>>55476267
But if denying my self-interest at some point, to some degree, would enrich those around me, why should I not? I seek pleasure through my works, I do not work to seek pleasure.
>it the philosophy of a machine
A machine capable of thought may still find joy while carrying out its function; it is not my place to put myself above my fellow man. If I were to lead them, it would only be for their benefit.
Of course, I guess you could say that maximizing the self-interest of others IS my self-interest.
>>55476368
>>55476387
Both of you used not getting too drunk as an example of not being too happy and that is easily not how it was described earlier in this thread.
>>55476370
You lost me on that analogy man.
>>55476426
Emotions are real in an objective sense. You can see them on brain scans, in people's facial expressions, they change based on the balances of your dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin. They're real.
>>55476549
Really none of your guys' examples reflect anything that is unique to people. Everyone regulates their emotions, but if this philosophy is based on that behavior, I assume it's to a higher degree than average.
>mfw having a civil discussion of virtue and ethics on /pol/
what is happening to the world
>>55474967
this.
most of these retards ranting against stoicism, are using babbys first philosophy book version of it, or the internet meme version.
if you read the actual writings it says don't worry about shit you cant control, devote all energy to things that you can. it is a practical philosophy, and since i started studying it it has helped me improve various parts of my life.
stoicism is one of the influences on modern cognitive therapy
>>55476621
I disagree entirely. A life motivated by a perceived duty to others or an attempt to help everyone you can is not a good one.
Put yourself first, help others because they are your friends, and do no wrong to anyone. That is the basis for morality and noble conduct. Anything beyond that is just for show, and trying to go too far that way will only burn you out.
Stoicism is a philosophy for the powerless. It's literally a guide on how to be happy in your problems rather than fix them.
That's not to say it's completely useless, some things really can't be helped. I think it's very practical to study for that reason. But it's not masculine, it's a slave's philosophy. Epictetus was literally a slave! With that said it's probably the best slave philosophy as it isn't whiny/blame other people/have pie-in-the-sky-ideaology.
>>55476728
This is the /pol/ I enjoy most, though some just can't stop with the bait
>>55476794
There seem to be two different definitions of stoicism in this thread. One where you just take all the pain, one where you work on it by introspection and moderation.
>>55476654
what about that one crazy chick who just can't get her shit together because she has no self control? everybody knows one. she could probably stand to regulate her emotions a bit better
>>55476762
It is also anti degeneracy.
>>55476794
>Epictetus was literally a slave
so was marcus aurelius!
>>55476794
Stoicism is only partially slavish. It doesn't say only control your reactions, it says acknowledge those things you have control over.
The problem of course is that it sets the barriers of control pretty low by its nature, but its not so simple as
"I'm going to sit here meditating for three or four months and wait for this to all blow over."
>>55476654
Everyone practices moderation to some extent, in the same way everyone technically does some physical exercise. That does not make every /pol/ack an athlete. Stoicism's virtues may not be unique, but diligently practicing them does make a difference. Though again I am no stoic, I can see the appeal.
>>55476889
That's nearly always in reference to negative emotions.
>>55472628
>Is Stoicism the most redpilled philosophy?
Yes. The Sophists also kicked ass.
>>55472628
No. Stoicism is an asshair's breadth away from solipsism. The real redpill is about knowledge, not action. What people do with the knowledge of how shit everything is is up to them.
>>55476794
Marcus Aurelius was a Roman Emperor.
Cato the younger a powerful Roman Senator.
Arrian was a powerful Roman Governor.
That's about as powerful as you can get.
>>55476762
talking about it now it seems to me that stoicism is more or less a description of what people ideally already do in their lives most of the time. i like that. it's grounded. not "here's this crazy shit" but "you already do it just do it more and better and things will get better"
>>55476773
>A life motivated by a perceived duty to others or an attempt to help everyone you can is not a good one
But what if I decide that this is what pleases me most, and that this is a good life?
>Put yourself first
I put myself first by putting others first; I am but one man, worthless compared to the entirety of man. I can do more good by working for others, than by working for myself.
>Do not wrong anyone
A good sentiment, but ultimately it is not enough. Man is strong on his own, yes, but we are indomitable together. a hundred men working for themselves cannot compare to the riches of ten men working for each other.
But can stoicism make anime real?
>>55476654
>Emotions are real in an objective sense. You can see them on brain scans, in people's facial expressions, they change based on the balances of your dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin. They're real.
You can imagine a unicorn and it'd show up in a brain scan. Is the unicorn real? Or did you just imagine it?
Let's do the other classic example in buddhism; you're up late at night and walk into a dark room. You see something that looks like a snake and you're scared. But then you turn on the light and it's just a rope. The snake was never real.
Emotions control you only as long as you think you're a slave to them. This is backed up by science too, by the way. You can read about how people get stuck in emotional loops, depression is one example of that. You get sad, you think the sadness has a real cause, you continue thinking about how sad you are, this depresses you further. It just goes on.
The point is that with some training you can learn to break out of strong emotions like anger and sadness without suppressing them (or whiteknuckling it as I said earlier). You just realize that they're just emotions. They're transitory. They're like a colour filter preventing you from seeing clearly. And you can choose to see that, and in seeing it the emotion dissipates like the snake turns into a rope when you turn on the light.
Again, I know this sounds strange and like some mystic nonsense if you haven't studied or practiced this. But it's really very simple.
>>55476962
even when she lets some dude drop a load in her sans condom? you do that shit because it feels good, then you're stuck with some shitty kid for the rest of your life
>>55477027
Well not quite, it does have its negative aspects. Its form of moderation is a bit ascetic even if it isn't entirely suppressive, it does involve some measure of numbing yourself, its emphasis on purely logical responses makes it the enemy of whim and strong passions, which can be fun if channeled properly, and its moral ideal is essentially monk-like, someone whose happiness consists primarily in truth and virtue.
I'd recommend Aristolean virtue ethics for a more humanized similiar philosophy.
>>55476728
pol is alright man, things are gonna be alright for most of us I hope
>>55476904
I love the this passage from the discourses in which Epictetus says in the face of insults you should be like a rock. For if someone stood in front of a rock all day and cursed at it you would think they were mad. You can't control the impressions you receive but you can analyze them and if they are no good don't form ideas with them
>>55477130
who needs to live well when we can just wallpaper over the problem with various pharmaceuticals?
>>55477104
>he doesn't like Rin
What a faggot
>>55476794
>Stoicism is a philosophy for the powerless. It's literally a guide on how to be happy in your problems rather than fix them.
Actually, stoicism was a niche philosophy alongside others (like epicurianism) practiced only by a few, while the majority were religious.
Stoicism wasn't popular among the powerless, religion was. Stoicism required education and only a few could get that education or personal guidance, they were usually well off, or the slaves of the well-off.
> But it's not masculine
What a strange thing to say. Rationality over emotion seems almost stereotypically masculine over feminine.
It's almost like you're just saying bullshit on the internet.
>>55477104
I thought he was against Rin and for Luvia.
>>55472628
How can you live a good life if your wife for example is murdered and you become brain-damaged but still know what happened?
fuck that stoic shit, it's like any other hippy "just relax man haha" philosophy
>>55477224
it's like playing the dozens. the only way to win the dozens is to not get mad, because if you get mad at an insult it's because deep down you think it's true. no one gets angry at a joke about their mother being a fat whore unless their mother really is a fat whore
>>55477096
>I am but one man, worthless compared to the entirety of man
This is entirely contrary to my very nature. It is my life and my way of living it, and I owe no man anything. I do not believe in duties one can take on unwillingly, or in moralities that are not founded primarily in one's own happiness.
I am not arguing against cooperation, but against the notion that you should make yourself a servant of the human race. Such a person is a good slave but not good for much else. Do good, make sacrifices, help others, but do not neglect yourself or forget that you are the reason for the earth. There are ways of putting yourself first that don't involve putting everyone else nowhere.
Stoicism is very red pill I agree.
Stoicism led me to Christianity, which to me is the ultimate red pill.
I liked stoicism but it didn't deal with the absolute, it was missing a transcendental aspect. Christianity gives the missing piece and is quite compatible with stoicism.
>>55477306
Luvia is better than Rin. Musonius agreed.
>>55476160
>>55476426
>>55476654
There is a methodology behind taming the emotions within Stoicism. It does not involve hiding from them, nor suppressing them, nor ignoring them. It involves understanding them. Here are the stages of an emotion born in the mind:
1. impression
2. unconscious value judgement about the impression
3. proposition - conscious value judgment about the impression
4 the mind accepts or rejects this proposition (assent)
Example:
1. Huge wave seen from ship
2. This is a bad thing as it will drown us
3. The wave will crash us and drown us
4. This is not a bad thing
Why is this not a bad thing? Because the only Good in the universe is Virtue, and death does not touch Virtue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmOs8Zqw5o
>>55477201
but i don't think stoicism thinks there's anything wrong with strong emotion when it's used for virtuous ends. i don't think the idea is that emotion is value-neutral and only becomes good or bad in reference to its effects
suffering, for example, ceases to be bad when it becomes the raw material of beauty
>>55477384
By controlling your judgement. There are harsher examples than that on the Stoic literature.
>my mom is depressed
>I heard her crying and telling my dad she needs help but the doctors just tell her to deal with it or prescribe drugs
>I'm stoic and unemotional and don't know how to comfort people
What the fuck do I do? Am I a failed son?
>>55477421
>Such a person is a good slave but not good for much else
When all men are slaves to each other, and all work to enrich each other, who can call himself poor?
Needless to say, this does not imply literal subservience. I do not work to enrich the life of murderers or dishonest men, nor those who care only of themselves at the expense of others, nor those incapable of caring for others in the first place.
>you are the reason for the earth
The earth shall happily spin without us, what matters is what we make of this world. Why not make it good, for all men?
>>55477391
And even if it was true what good would it do to get all upset? At that moment you should be able to say to yourself he intends to insult me but I don't value his words and they are of little consquence
>>55477546
And what does stoicism say about that?
>control your judgement bro
In cases of so much injustice, "controlling" your judgement equates to giving up
>>55477553
If you were a stoic, you would try to teach her about stoicism.If she learned it, she would be immune to depression.
>>55477553
Just ask what you can do for her, tell her you don't know what to do or how to feel, it's okay to show emotion, just do what is right in your mind.
>>55475336
Buddhists hide away to avoid distraction so they can dive deeper into their minds.
It is a technique booster, not the end goal way of life.
Once they are enlightened they come back into the world and enjoy the fuck out of it.
>>55477633
When Vespasian sent for Helvidius Priscus and commanded him not to go into the senate, he replied, "It is in your power not to allow me to be a member of the senate, but so long as I am, I must go in." "Well, go in then," says the emperor, "but say nothing." "Do not ask my opinion, and I will be silent." "But I must ask your opinion." "And I must say what I think right." "But if you do, I shall put you to death." "When then did I tell you that I am immortal? You will do your part, and I will do mine: it is your part to kill; it is mine to die, but not in fear: yours to banish me; mine to depart without sorrow."
>>55477553
>What the fuck do I do? Am I a failed son?
You can do simple things like tell her she means a lot to you. Do something she enjoys, if she has some hobby, talk to her. Cook her a meal. Clean up her house as a surprise present.
You're not responsible for or capable of changing her depression, all you can do is nudge it a bit with support.
>but the doctors just tell her to deal with it or prescribe drugs
Drugs are incredibly ineffective against serious depression. They've even had to revise the DSM to reflect this.
Sporadic use of psychopharma is actually worse than none at all.
> don't know how to comfort people
Mostly it's just being there, listening, doing things together. There are no right words you can say that fixes things.
>>55477553
“The sage will not feel pity, because he cannot feel it without himself being in a pitiful state of mind; but everything else that is done by those who do indulge in that emotion will also be done by him – and this readily and high-mindedly. He will succour a sorrowful neighbour without joining in his grief. He will give a helping hand to the castaway, hospitality to the exile, alms to the destitute. … He will allow a mother’s tears to purchase the freedom of her son, will release the prisoner from his chains and the gladiator from his barracks, and will even give burial to the criminal’s corpse. But he will do all this without any mental agitation or any change of countenance” (Seneca: De Clementia, Book II, chap. 6, §§ 1-2).
Even Seneca admitted we weep and laugh. Much literature regarding Stoicism is about the ideal of Stoicism - what is called the Sage. All true Stoics admit the Sage is an ideal nobody on Earth achieves. It is a goal.
>>55477553
>I'm stoic and unemotional
I believe you've mistaken Stoicism for Autism
>>55473119
stoicism
> the key to being happy is understanding what situations you have control over and not lamenting in those you don't
> buddhism
The key to being happy is to be a degenerate sub-human without any passion or desire.
>>55477553
Well first ask her what is the point of being depressed? Whoever profited from by being depressed? It is pointless.
She values external things too much and she wont re-evaluate her ideas about her self she should make it her job to eliminate all the bad opinions she has because they are like cancer
Let her god gave her everything she needs to live a good life, god mad her rational
>>55473467
>mention of pantheism on /pol/ of all places
I'm actually surprised.
I doubt there are any here though.
>>55477540
Stoicism in most of its forms does not approve of strong passions since they are difficult to control and impede its rational logical view of the world.
>>55477575
I will call myself poor, and I don't care what the earth wants. I am selfish, and I love my life and my love of my life. This type of moral posturing is not a good happy noble way to live, and I will call anyone who devotes his ENTIRE life to helping others a slave and a fool and an idiot, if such a life doesn't benefit him too.
If you want a better view of my philosophy regarding this, look up pathological altruism, or virtue ethics vs deontological ones, or hell, the entire economic doctrine of socialism.
There are negative aspects of alturism, empathy, and "heroism", that I think should be avoided and I think this philosophy of yours falls into the pitfall of "Well everyone says its good, so it must be good".
>>55477758
what
I'm kind of an idiot, help me out here
>>55477384
>How can you live a good life if your wife for example is murdered and you become brain-damaged but still know what happened?
This is a reality of every day. It's actually a famously stoic thing of you to think about. Marcus Aurelius talks about taking a moment to remember your child might die during their sleep when you tuck them into bed.
>fuck that stoic shit, it's like any other hippy "just relax man haha" philosophy
It's quite the opposite. It's quite hard to look at life's realities and mortality in the eye every day of your life. To realize not only that you will end, but that your legacy will be wiped out and forgotten. That all you know and love will wither and die.
To do that and still believe in virtue and right action isn't avoiding life or shrugging your shoulders, it's digging in and facing reality.
Post nihilism > nihilism > pessimism > cynicism > stoicism
Is Taoism the best philosophy for women since it makes you a more complete person rather than a better wife? Do Western philosophies offer a better alternative?
>>55477846
Buddhism "end goal" is not not to have any passion or desire, but realize that craving brings suffering to you and others.
It's way more autistic and easy to lost yourself compared to stoicism tho.
>>55477872
>I will call myself poor, and I don't care what the earth wants. I am selfish, and I love my life and my love of my life.
That is your choice to make; man is an individual, after all.
>This type of moral posturing is not a good happy noble way to live
To you, perhaps; but it brings me joy, I find happiness in my works.
>Well everyone says it's good, so it must be good
It is good to me because I feel good doing it. Of course, I feel tired, worn, and dull by day's end, but I am happy.
So long as others who are worthy of happiness are happy, then I too shall be happy.
>>55477876
My take - we all live according to what we believe is right. In this scenario, both had their duties before them. Both were expected to perform their duties.
>>55477876
He's saying that stoic philosophy can involve not giving up, but carrying your ideals through to the bitter end, not fearing the consequences of following them. This is retained even in the common language form of the word "stoic", which is only tangentially related to the philosophy, where "facing your end stoically" means doing it with unflinching resolve.
>>55477990
>>55477821
there is a part in seneca where he talks about some guy who was about to be put to death. while he was in prison waiting to die he was playing checkers. when the guard told him it was his time to die, he told the guard to make sure that everyone knew that he had won the game of checkers, and not to let the other player say he won.
0 fucks given
this was the ideal way to approach death.
you will die no matter what, wether execution, or defecating yourself in an old people home. the key is to control fear to really live. control what you can, but dont worry about things you cant control. live with dignity
>>55477876
This is how a stoic deals with a tyrant.
He will oppose the tyrant, even if the tyrant is much more powerful. Fight the injustice.
Who /zenoofcitium/ here?
>>55478032
I'll still call you a fool though.
>>55477854
Anybody else who has read Epictetus here? What's your favorite passage from the discourses?
>>55478136
And I would call you selfish and egoistic, but we are allowed to have our own opinions.
Take care anon, I wish you the greatest of successes in your life, whatever you decide those successes to be.
>>55478350
You too.
>>55478021
>Is Taoism the best philosophy for women since it makes you a more complete person rather than a better wife? Do Western philosophies offer a better alternative?
Taoism is very hard to get into. Most people who do are really some vague buddhist. It's not really surprising since buddhism adopted a lot of the ideas and metaphors (basically look at Zen if you want the synthesis).
Taoism doesn't make you a more complete person. In fact I don't think that statement even makes sense to a Taoist.
What do you think "complete person" means, and why would women need different philosophies than men? If you're alluding to subservience and being okay with your role in life that's more Confucianism.
