>there are people on this board, right now, who actually oppose universal health care in the United States
I hope you fuckshits end up getting something that insurance either won't cover or only partially covers and that you have to file for chapter 7.
It's a complete fucking disgrace that the insurance companies are allowed to write laws and run the direction of the medical industry in this country in the first place.
Sorry I don't believe in paying for your lazy ass to live off my dime faggot
There are over 300 million people in this country and those who aren't niggers are having no problem getting healthcare as it is.
i have nothing against it but all illegals need to be kicked out first. there is no way we cold have universal healthcare while 50 million criminals suck the system dry
>>55419025
Lock down the border, boost the economy, THEN we can have universal healthcare.
But not as it is, it would be unsustainable
>>55419158
such a weak argument. you pay for people who dont have health insurance already, man. you'd be paying less all around if we had a single payer system.
inb4
>idc if i pay less if im still paying for other people
or
>universal healthcare is terrible quality hurrr
>>55419025
Come get some of our SUS, it's wonderful.
>>55419025
Who is that?!
>>55419025
It's not so great. I went to a doctor on October 15th, he said I need to see a specialist. That's been set for February 16. Can you fucking believe this? I'm going to go to the good old US of A in December and see a doctor there.
>>55419243
You're right.
They're having trouble paying for any of it instead.
>>55419158
I guarantee you're getting subsidies of some kind right now from the gubbment.
Hope you get sick and see what a nightmare it is, faggot. Not that genetics, environments, or upbringing have anything to do with a person's susceptibility or development of illnesses, right? Those fucks should've just worked harder and maintained their oat intake and squatted a bit more, lazy shits.
Fuck this thread.
I want sauce
>>55419158
Even if you have insurance, you're paying for other people. That's how it works.
>>55419424
Obviously one wouldn't expect you being from Reddit to know the first thing about other countries' quality of healthcare.
>>55419025
maybe they are rich or inmortal
>>55419424
Tell me how you're going to implement a single payer system in a country of 300 million people
You managed without it so far, I don't get the fuss.
>>55419484
>I'm going to go to the good old US of A in December and see a doctor there.
How much will that run you, moneypants? What's this specialist for anyway?
February 16th is better than never ever or at the cost of your entire financial well-being. Do you even know what a hospital stay in the US tends to cost?
>>55419492
>They're having trouble paying for any of it instead.
Of course, because half their money is being taken from them and given to a dopehead on welfare.
>>55419025
You want socialized healthcare in the US go join the military and then try using the VHA.
Protip: it's utter shit
>>55419025
Well, if get taxed I WANT IT BACK IN SERVICES.
Probably would be better if the taxes were cut so I can do whatever the fuck I want, but if I'm going to be taxed I WANT HEALTH CARE AND ROADS.
>>55419619
Some skin problem. I'd rather get it treated fast and pay money than wait and risk it getting worse. Every year 50 000 Canadians go to America to get treatment. Trust me, you don't want universal healthcare.
>>55419865
Again, how much does it cost, moneypants?
>>55419025
You are a disgrace
>>55419158
What you mean to say is that you don't believe in the unalienable natural right to life that every citizen of the world has.
So basically you're an uneducated close minded kekfuck who can't be bothered to consider the fucking Declaration of Independence or The Social Contract.
Eight times more americans die due to lack of health insurance than due to gun related homicides. http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/
Educate yourself fuckwit.
>>55419948
Why don't you move down here then, canukek? Surely you're wealthy and skilled enough to make it in America, right?
I just want to know who that is on the gif
>>55420002
More people die from getting kicked by a horse than they do by being bit by australian shoe spiders. That doesn't make spiders less creepy, does it?
>>55419930
A few grand.
>>55420381
Do you even know what a false equivalency is?
>>55420701
Well, at least you'll get your psoriasis/acne prescription a bit faster. Hope you can dole out for the meds.
>>55421203
Yeah I do, I just saw no relevance in what you had to say and decided to dismiss it entirely with a nonsensical reply.
>>55420381
The fact that more americans are die from not having health insurance than die from gun related homicides actually serves little purpose in my argument.
Ironically you latched onto it as the only portion that you could conceivably refute, and then failed to do so any way.
>>55421493
So basically you're stupid on two accounts.
>>55422356
He's just another shill.
Don't worry, he's gotta get to bed soon anyway. He wouldn't want to lose his insurance that is subsidized by his bossman already, right?
It's pretty incredible that people think it's okay for small businesses to pay out the ass to insure their workers but simply taxing people more and freeing up the administration of any of that shit for more productive uses would just crash the economy outright.
>>55422514
How do you reach that conclusion I wonder.
>>55420002
>social contract meme
When did I sign this again?
Also show me where universal healthcare is under the Constitution
>>55422563
Where do you think money comes from anyway?
>>55419025
I'm not paying for abortions for whores.
>>55419025
I have the money, so I deserve the best healthcare, screw you poorfags.
My family has the best private medical insurance in this country. My mother was diagnosed with liver disease a long time ago. She was in and out of hospitals for many, many years. Not once was she ever "dropped" or "reevaluated" by insurance companies. The insurance company was billed over $1 million over the past 3 years for her costs. Sadly, she passed away anyway, even after all that. But in the end, we barely paid $10,000 for all of that out of our pocket in deductibles. According you to communist shills, we would be in chapter 7 bankruptcy ten times by now.
Your insurance just sucks. Get off your lazy fucking ass for once in your damn life, work hard, and stop using trash coverages like Panda Insurance, HAP or Medicad.
Good medical service is not a right, it is something you earn. Billions of people have went without good healthcare for 1000's of years, and civilization has been just fine. I'm not going to spend another penny out of my paycheck to pay for another cunt's birth control plan or drug addict's rehab because some communist said I had to.
>>55423052
Don't worry, (as evidenced by OP's active and opinionated presence in this thread) it's all Jebist false-flaggers.
>>55419025
Universal healthcare only works when an overwhelming majority contributes. Right now, there are too many parasites leeching off the state. Right now it is unsustainable.
Our healthcare system has been slowly collapsing under the pressure of immigrant leechers.
>>55419255
this
>>55423052
This. And sorry for your loss, matey, I hope your mom's doing well in Heaven.
>>55419424
what about the people that dont pay
>>55419025
I WANNA SMELL THIS DIRTY LITTLE WHORE'S ASSHOLE
If the fucking minimum wage wasn't so fucking peasant worthy people might actually work but you see , the rich must get richer.
Keep paying private health insurance whilst supporting genocide for the 20mil without healthcare, if only you fags were smart enough to realise that tax would equate to less than your private healthcare.
>>55419025
The vast majority of healthcare is done because people are stupid and make bad decisions. And not even just short term mistakes, but chronic and constant self destruction. If you suggested governmental coverage for say, only infectious diseases and accidents, I might be game. But I'm not paying for a fat person's hip replacement, an alcoholic's liver transplant, or a smoker's chemo.
>>55420002
Healthcare isn't a right, fucktard.
>>55422746
Then you should wear a condom, mate.
>>55425769
I think he was referring to whores that other dudes fucked.
>>55419424
The real solution is to stop letting them into emergency rooms in general if they don't have the $$$ to pay.
>>55419547
hahaha i lived in Canada for 10 years you idiot.
>hurr redditor detected meme
>>55419602
the logistics of that aren't my job to figure out. it works fine in plenty of other countries around the world and i doubt the number of people living there has a astronomical impact in implementing such a system
>>55425516
>tfw I had an ex dress in a slutty french maid costume and dust my dick with feathers
Miss that slut
>>55425803
That's not a solution, that's how you get mass rioting.
Hospitals take people who don't have insurance even though they know they can't pay. That they will have to sell the debt to a collection company and write off the difference as a loss on their taxes is just part of the business.
>>55425694
If illegals got deported, the middle class was larger, the people voted for it, had the ability to opt and and be privately insured, and it worked like this, I think I would support it.
>>55425919
>Hospitals take people who don't have insurance even though they know they can't pay.
This is exactly how my town's hospital went under.
Family never gets sick, nor any diseases or conditions. Hardly ever have to pay for healthcare except when they start to age in their 80s-90s. Feels like I won won some kind of lottery.
>>55425838
>lol I don't know I FEEL like it would work tho
kill your self.
>>55425919
No, they do it because its a law you dumb fuck. If it wasn't a law they wouldn't do it. This Is america motherfucker. Land of the free, not land of the kinda free but daddy government will bail you out when you decide to be retarded until you start doing retarded things because you know nothing bad will ever happen to you and you begin to force other people to pay for you and let the government have complete control of all medical services land.
>>55419025
Sauce of that gif?
How much do you hate this fag?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y162FE-4z7A
Part of me is for it just because we need to do something about doctors who are blatantly milking the wealthier ill and accelerating their deaths to boot.
Penn Jillette was on 6 different blood pressure meds, when he was a fat fuck. Why's that weird? Because there's literally no fucking reason to take more than one. They all do the same thing, and the only thing taking 6 does is increase the chance of some unfortunate interaction. They do this to every fucking elderly rich person in this country. "Oh yeah, you need this surgery and this procedure because I totally won't make more money that way." Half the time, whatever it is they do just ends up creating new and worse problems.
>>55425838
And I in the UK for 7, what of it?
>>55419025
Yup. We want to actually survive a trip to the hospital. Not die at the hands of some retarded, 3rd World subhuman "doctor", chosen by Govt.
>>55419025
Speaking as a veteran (welfare queen, free drinks tomorrow) If what you want is ANYTHING like what we have right now with the VA, then you are the biggest fucking retard on the planet.
Look at the VA hospital in Phoenix and the shit that is going on there. Me personally it's been almost 5 fucking years since I've been out and I've still haven't seen a doctor yet for my fucked up back from 6 years of carrying a god damn ruck.
At the very least they could have some asian woman stand on my back for a few minutes.
>>55419025
Just give me the source of that maid ass, family.
>>55419025
>universal health care
does it work on Mars?
>>55419410
thread/ social goods and services are way overburdened now and only super poor use them as it is, imagine if every amerian had to use them
>>55419025
>gibs me dat
>>55419025
source?
poor jamal needs dental care after he gets into a fight over some cornbread, now pay up cracka
Stop shilling, Reddit.
>>55419025
Sorry bro not a Socialist don't try and force me, that's why we have the 2nd amendment ;)
American healthcare is completely different from the rest of the world
1) it is head and shoulder above any other healthcare system in the world. We have the best doctors from the best schools (American schools) using the best equipment (largely produced in America) in the best facilities
2) We use diagnostic procedures WAY more than anywhere else int he world. Things like CT scans, x rays, etc do absolutely nothing to actually help people get better but they do provide information. People in America are willing to pay a premium for information while other places in the world are not for whatever reason. Prime example: colonoscopies are routine here and all men are expected to have one around the age of 50 to check for prostate cancer. Places with with universal healthcare do not cover this kind of thing because it is 100% information rather than actual medicine and cures.
tl;dr different country, different system
>>55425803
>that statue on the left
could the romans actually have been black? wheres that based canadian when you need him!?
>>55419025
i oppose the fact that my insurance rates have tripled so welfare leech dindus can get free oxycodones for "muh backache"
>there are people in this board who have literally never kissed a girl ever
>>55427197
well you have socialism for veterans, socialism for baby boomers, socialism for niggers and socialism for big banks and corporations, when did you used your guns to go against them?
but oy vey if someone wants socialism for me the average aged middle class then I will go bundy ranch on guburmunts ass.
>>55426234
>This Is america motherfucker. Land of the free, not land of the kinda free but daddy government will bail you out when you decide to be retarded until you start doing retarded things because you know nothing bad will ever happen to you
Unless you're one of their corporate bum buddies. Then it's land of break the law, scam regular middle class stiffs, keep all the takings and get bailed out NP.
>>55428941
why is hatred is always downwards? for example this >>55428618
I never seen americans complaninig about their insurance price hike so that shareholders can make more profit / ceo can get a good bonus etc. No no no its always some niggers medicine or some poorfags surgery, hatred is always directed towards bottom.
They don't even touch babyboomers much, even though they are a huge financial burden. Maybe because they have relatives etc in that group.
I'm not saying go sympathize with the nigger or the poor and not look after your interest. But for them there is absolutely no possibility that their interest conflicting with the interests of the rich and to suggest otherwise is taboo.
I'm a torry myself when I point out how poor and middle class interests are seperate they agree with me but when I say middle class and rich have seperate interests they call me a marxist.
>>55419025
I came here for ass and there is no ass
>>55419424
>you pay less under single player
Objectively and demonstrably false.
>universal healthcare isn't terrible quality
Also false.
>>55419479
Trishia oaks
>>55422514
>thinking an illustrative metaphor was being used as an objective argument
You are just dumb as rocks.
>Be 24
>don't smoke
>don't drink
>exercise regularly (cycling, weightlifting)
>live in extremely low crime area
>insurance is 238 a month
>get notice from Blue Cross Blue Shield
>gonna raise my premium by $80.32
>new monthly bill is $318.32
>be my parents
>mid 50s
>insurance is $1,400 a month for both
>get notice from Blue Cross Blue Shield
>premium raised by $400
>new monthly bill is $1,800
>thanks to obamacare I have to have an insurance policy
You all can suck my cock. I'll fucking vote for Bernie if I don't have to burn through 300 bucks a month for this fucking bullshit. My parents don't deserve to lose nearly $2k for healthcare costs when they're perfectly fucking healthy individuals that live healthy lifestyles.
It's either time or money when it comes to this and a lot of people don't have the time to be sitting around dying of cancer.
>>55426518
>Gov't can't even run the VA, it's a total shitshow and people are literally dying due to their incompetence
>"Let's have them manage healthcare for EVERYONE"
Liberals
>>55430116
Honestly, Free health care should only be accessible to people that aren't hazardous to their own health, Why should you have to wait around dying while a massive lardass that smokes is in front of you?
>>55426234
ya most people that become doctors do it because they like to help people.
even if it wasn't required by law hospitals would still take people in.
>>55423052
>this system works for me
>so how can it possibly not work for other people
>>55419025
When it runs well it's great, but it's also one of our most bloated and inefficiently managed public services.
Might be a bit hard to implement in a nation as physically big as the USA too. Plus >niggers and other assorted lowlifes being a drain on resources and generally making people a bit disgruntled about this shit coming out of our taxes.
>>55419025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBFoC1gkExI
Universal Healthkeks btfo
>My idea is soooo good that it deserves to be put into place by force
Here in Canada, we get to blow 10% or so of our GDP on said universal healthcare only to have some of the longest, if not THE longest, line-ups for it in the OECD.
>>55425838
Half of all americans don't pay taxes because they are either students, welfare scum or pensioners. You tell me how you're going to provide more than 300 million people healthcare. You people disgust me. You realize that america has the best doctors and hospitals in the world and is responsible for creating life saving drugs and medical treatments but at the same time you detest the very mechanism that makes all of this possible.
>>55419025
I work a fucking job that provides me health insurance. I contribute to society and dont depend on handouts. Fuck off shitter.
>>55419025
>implying I won't become a millionaire before getting sick and be able to pay for the best treatments
>>55431475
STATISTS BTFO
BERNIEFAGS BTFO
OBAMAFAGS BTFO
>>55419025
>filing for bankruptcy because of medical bills
literally does nothing to help you except stops the calls and letters for a few years, debt is still there afterwards.
>>55419243
>There are over 300 million people in this country and those who aren't niggers are having no problem getting healthcare as it is.
Millions of white children grow up in abject poverty without proper care so your cuuckservative heroes can be "anti-racists" and say that if they provided health care to all whites as they should, they'd have to provide it to all the niggers as well. This is untrue as the law was never intended to render niggers equal rights to ethnic Europeans.
You degenerates will be swept out with the trash when the time comes for the glorious awakening of the white race.
>>55420002
>What you mean to say is that you don't believe in the unalienable natural right to life that every citizen of the world has.
Human rights were invented by white people FOR WHITE PEOPLE - not for any other kind of people. It is cultural appropriation for non-whites to claim they have them.
>>55430149
>cops are evil corrupt and racist
>you dont need a gun you have the police
similar line of thinking
>>55419492
>I guarantee you're getting subsidies of some kind right now from the gubbment.
heh, a projective freudian slip from the state shill
>>55422563
>simply taxing people more
fuck off, you just lost the moral high ground
>>55432547
>fuck off, you just lost the moral high ground
MUH TAXES MUH LIBERTARIANISM!
>>55430488
>most people that become doctors do it because they like to help people.
That must be why so many doctors volunteer on their free time and only ask for 80k wages.
Top kek m8
>>55419025
Universal Healthcare blows. Almost every GP I've been to in the past 5 years has been a woman, and they all have fucking sucked. I've had to go through a bunch of online sources before I figured out what's wrong with my gut.
My friend would have died if he took the advice of the woman doctor at the local walk in clinic. She said he just had strep throat, prescribed the usual meds, and sent him on his way. She didn't even do a goddamn swab to verify. She was fucking wrong. The antibiotics didn't do shit since it wasn't strep. He managed to get himself to the hospital, and fortunately the actual competent doctors there solved the problem. A chinese specialist cut open the inside of my friend's throat because it was almost swollen shut.
I'll agree that unexpected life-threatening things should be taken care of free of charge. But the average person shouldn't have to be footing the bill for all the procedures that some landwhale with colon cancer would have to go through.
>>55419025
>>there are people on this board, right now, who actually oppose universal health care in the United States
I oppose it, and don't want it here. Thankfully the vast majority of my fellow countrymen agree.
It seems to me that all the republicans think that Obama wants to sell their double wide take their gun and give it to blacks and mexicans.
Why do you think this?
>>55430608
>this system doesn't work for me
>so how can it possibly work for other people
>because i'm a failure everyone should chip in to help me out
>>55432804
Do you have anything helpful to add? Other than poor people are failures and should be left to die, that is.
>>55427524
>colonoscopies are routine here and all men are expected to have one around the age of 50 to check for prostate cancer.
They check for colon cancer. Not prostate.
>>55432801
>strawman
Doesn't even have anything to do with Bernie. Your just attacking Republicans for some reason. I guess you think were Republicans?
>>55432854
Yea, most idiots are. Not all
>>55432826
Explain to me again why I should have to pay for other people's problems? Inteligent poor poeple will be ok. Retards should be left to die. Especially when that retard wants to legally steal money from other people.
>>55432776
>But the average person shouldn't have to be footing the bill for all the procedures that some landwhale with colon cancer would have to go through.
You should be dedicated to helping members of your race. Health care in the United States is insanely inefficient and exploitative - run by organized Jewish cartels that artificially inflate prices to insane levels. Universal health care in functioning white countries works fine - you simply cannot invite hordes of non-white parasites into your country to parasitize whites. Whites are naturally bred to want to be useful - in general they will work rather than remain idle. Other races don't have centuries of civilized breeding, which constitutes an artificial selective force - like in animal domestication, which has produced the greatness of the white race.
Single payer healthcare is as natural as single-payer police and fire protection - it doesn't fit into a capitalist model as the goal of health practitioners should be to REDUCE DEMAND for health services by promoting HEALTH. Similarly, police should REDUCE DEMAND for prisons by promoting LAW ABIDING behavior.
By contrast a car company should INCREASE DEMAND for cars in order to maximize revenue - the fundamental nature of a consumer good like this is to create demand. The fundamental nature of health care is to reduce it.
>>55432929
it's not stealing your money it's following the law and paying your taxes.
It's because everyone should have the right to live. If your religious then your god commands it.
why is the obamacare tax "stealing" and not the income tax or gas tax? Can some republictard explain this to me?
>>55425838
> you are an idiot if you don't want single payer
How do you think single payer will work?
> well umm, well other countries, umm, have it, hmm, having 25x the population doesn't, umm matter. I openly know nothing about the subject but, umm, I know I'm my heart it will just work.
The population does matter. When there is a very large chunk of the population that pays 0 in taxes(some could be considered negatively considering they live off of supplemental income), May or may not even be here legally, and/or are in such poor physical and mental health to begin with (sees pays 0 in taxes), yet feels entitled to gibmedaps, it really does matter. I'd be willing to bet money that there is a sizable chunk of population that solely work to provide health insurance, along with minor necessities that welfare doesn't, for their family. If they had health insurance provided I believe they'd leave the work force entirely.
We already have almost 100 million freeloaders in this country. Expecting hard working Americans to pick up the slack is selfish.
Pls of you think out will get any cheaper because of single payer you're delusional. Prices will just remain the same, with a 4 fold increase in usage. That money has to come from somewhere
One huge problem with healthcare efficiency here is overblown healthcare administration and "defensive" medicine. Doctors have foolishly traded their freedom to run their own business to the monolith of "administration". They in turn have changed healthcare into more of a business than ever.
Also, damn patients and not wanting to pay for -anything- as it is. Oh no, you have a $50 copay. You have a $100 a month cellphone plan and buy stupid bullshit all the time. Paying money for your own health? OH MY GOD, THE HUGE MANATEE.
>>55432973
>It's because everyone should have the right to live
Well, that's true; I'm glad we don't have death squads going around. However "the right to cutting edge medical technology to stave off death and disease from mostly highly preventable causes" isn't that.
>>55433085
He's right guys. There's nothing we can do and poor people should just keep dying.
Pro tip: when your putting a argument together make it with substance, freeloader this, stupid shit that. No substance or addressing any real issues like the poor people dying.
That's why sanders will be elected he's telling America what he can do. Republicans are telling Americans what they can't do. Keep it up
>>55430116
This is why I didn't like Obamacare. They could've just made it so that pre-existing conditions don't disqualify people and that's it. Everyone gets to stay on their same plan, not have to pay for extra shit that they didn't need before the ACA, and not make it a requirement for people who don't want to get health insurance.
>>55419025
>>55419025
lel murrica is 3rd world
>>55432973
I'm not religious and everybody already has the right to live. People should not have the right to get have their fuck ups covered by the government.
>>55432946
Come back when you've kicked all the niggers out of the country. Even then fuck off. The reason medical costs are so high is because of government subsidies and insurance work. Why should the government be in charge of anything other than governing. Next time your going to the hospital ask to pay cash instead of using insurance. If you actually think socialism is good in any sense you should just end your life now.
>>55433085
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq
>The United States has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. Over 31% of every health care dollar goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. Because the U.S. does not have a unified system that serves everyone, and instead has thousands of different insurance plans, each with its own marketing, paperwork, enrollment, premiums, and rules and regulations, our insurance system is both extremely complex and fragmented.
>The Medicare program operates with just 3% overhead, compared to 15% to 25% overhead at a typical HMO. Provincial single-payer plans in Canada have an overhead of about 1%.
>It is not necessary to have a huge bureaucracy to decide who gets care and who doesn’t when everyone is covered and has the same comprehensive benefits. With a universal health care system we would be able to cut our bureaucratic burden in half and save over $300 billion annually.
>>55433209
>poor people should just keep dying
Most people die from preventable disease. Diabetes, vessel disease, high blood pressure by and large are secondary to activity and diet. Colon cancer is highly correlated with red meat consumption. Alcohol is related to all cancer. I can go on. What do you think people actually die and suffer of?
The answer to mortality among the poor isn't (universally) healthcare. It's education and a change in culture. Those will provide larger dividends.
Also, if you are financially responsible for your own health, that provides an incentive to actually care about it. People are strange creatures, let me tell you. They won't pay $15 to save their life, but will spend that much on overeating and waste.
>>55433080
I think income tax is stealing. Everything else is fine. The government needs to pay for some things, but things like welfare, peoples tuition, peoples retirement, and programs for gibs me dats should not be happening.
>>55423052
>barely paid $10,000
That bankrupts most people you muppet
>>55423052
>$10,000 is not a lot of money
Holy shit fuck off Mr. Moneybags
>>55433249
To bad you weren't this angry at goldman sachs 10 trillion dollar bailout because of their economy crushing fuck up. Or the trillions lost on the fuck up in Iraq. You just don't like to fuck up spending money on poor people. Admit it your a racist. That's fine, but just come clean
>>55419025
>People dont want to give you free stuff
>You wish horrible things upon them.
Commandment 10
Thou shalt not covet.
>>55433339
ok, I got you. It's their fault their sick so we could save them but probably shouldn't. That way we can "teach the other poors a lesson" you know like when someone goes into the ER from a car crash, shouldn't of been driving that car why waste money on them?
>>55433464
I don't even think you read what my post said.
It said that health care costs would be less in the US under a single payer system. Tax payers would have to pay less money.
Why would you not want that?
>>55433436
It sure is reddit in here. Of course i'm racist. 90% /pol/ is racist. I thought that was a given. And so what if I am?
>To bad you weren't this angry at goldman sachs 10 trillion dollar bailout because of their economy crushing fuck up.
wasn't aware of this. Why do you assume my position on it?
>Or the trillions lost on the fuck up in Iraq
>lost
>fuck up
I think we did a fairly good job removing kebab.
>>55419025
SOURCE. NOW.
>>55433494
So you're saying that most poor people die from auto accidents?
Your argument is irrelevant because most people die of preventable diseases, not catastrophe. Again, if we had to choose WHERE TO INVEST MONEY FOR A GREATER BENEFIT TO SOCIETY, it would be better spent toward health education, not covering healthcare costs.
>>55419025
>there are people on this board, right now, who actually oppose universal health care in the United States
I can't speak for the US or other countries, but here we do have universal health care.
Public hospitals are overcrowded, underfunded, understaffed, poorly equipped, have long waiting lists and bribery is common practice because it's a well known fact that medical workers are horribly overworked and underpaid.
Basically anyone who finishes medschool with a scholarship just fucks off to a private hospital or goes abroad so that's even less money that goes to health care.
Does the whole universal health care thing actually work anywhere?
>>55433588
>medical workers are horribly overworked and underpaid.
They are the same in the US
>>55423052
>>55433365
>>55433435
$10,000 USD as a yearly income would place you in the Top 16.01% richest people in the world by income and, this makes you the 960,490,777th richest person on earth by income.
http://www.globalrichlist.com/
>>55433365
>Be dead
>Be broke.
Pick one, faggot.
I can make more money. I can not survive your 3rd World bullshit NHS crap.
>>55433542
He's saying that the quality of healthcare (i.e. as shown by wait times) is not equivalent. So of course costs are not equal, they cut on actually providing care.
>>55433546
lol wasn't aware of it. A real "thinker" you are. Keeping up with current events. By current events I mean fox news.
You can be racist all you want just say it up front don't talk about your freedoms just say I dont want to pay for nigger health care
>>55433618
It was other three years. Not a year. Also, who cares about THE WORLD? Talk about the US, where the median income is 50k. God you're a tard.
>>55433284
where are they getting that info? can't find any sources on that web page
>>55433631
No, they don't cut on care, they cut on bureaucratic costs.
Like shown here:
>>55433284
>>>The United States has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. Over 31% of every health care dollar goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. Because the U.S. does not have a unified system that serves everyone, and instead has thousands of different insurance plans, each with its own marketing, paperwork, enrollment, premiums, and rules and regulations, our insurance system is both extremely complex and fragmented.
>>It is not necessary to have a huge bureaucracy to decide who gets care and who doesn’t when everyone is covered and has the same comprehensive benefits. With a universal health care system we would be able to cut our bureaucratic burden in half and save over $300 billion annually.
>>55433577
ok, lets go ahead and lecture that cancer away you fucking idiot. Go stick your head up Donald Trumps ass that way you both can live in fantasy land
>>55433612
Doctors make an average of 195k. What are you talking about?
>>55433671
The post that was linked said:
>Here in Canada, we get to blow 10% or so of our GDP on said universal healthcare only to have some of the longest, if not THE longest, line-ups for it in the OECD
That's what I'm referring to. The "longest line-ups". Does that factor into your cost analysis?
>get letter in the mail
>health plan I bought last year, through obamacare, is no longer being offered
>new plan has a 3 grand higher deductible, 10% higher copay and 20$ higher premium per month
Thank god I was able to get amazing health insurance through my grad school or else I would be screwed. How can anyone see this shit and support it? It's like a generation has been raised as perpetual children that ignore reality when it suits them.
>>55433694
Most cancer is preventable. Lung, the most common cause of cancer deaths, is a preventable disease. What part of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" don't you get?
>>55433723
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq#rationing
>Won’t this result in rationing like in Canada?
>The U.S. already rations care. Rationing in U.S. health care is based on income: if you can afford care, you get it; if you can’t, you don’t. A recent study found that 45,000 Americans die every year because they don’t have health insurance. Many more skip treatments that their insurance company refuses to cover. That’s rationing. Other countries do not ration in this way.
cont
>believe
No I don't as it requires no thought
I think that there are no universal rights as there is no evidence they exist independent of humans
>>55433780
>If there is this much rationing, why don’t we hear about it? And if other countries ration less, why do we hear about them? The answer is that their systems are publicly accountable, and ours is not. Problems with their health care systems are aired in public; ours are not. For example, in Canada, when waits for care emerged in the 1990s, Parliament hotly debated the causes and solutions. Most provinces have also established formal reporting systems on waiting lists, with wait times for each hospital posted on the Internet. This public attention has led to recent falls in waits there.
>In U.S. health care, no one is ultimately accountable for how the system works. No one takes full responsibility. Rationing in our system is carried out covertly through financial pressure, forcing millions of individuals to forgo care or to be shunted away by caregivers from services they can’t pay for.
cont
>>55433651
But its not just about niggers. I also don't want to pay for other peoples shit.
>>55433807
>>The rationing that takes place in U.S. health care is unnecessary. A number of studies (notably a General Accounting Office report in 1991 and a Congressional Budget Office report in 1993) show that there is more than enough money in our health care system to serve everyone if it were spent wisely. Administrative costs are at 31% of U.S. health spending, far higher than in other countries’ systems. These inflated costs are due to our failure to have a publicly financed, universal health care system. We spend about twice as much per person as Canada or most European nations, and still deny health care to many in need. A national health program could save enough on administration to assure access to care for all Americans, without rationing.
So we gonna get a source on that GIF?
>>55433780
>>55433807
>>55433819
And of course this article:
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2012/july/single-payer-does-not-equal-increased-wait-times
Works for us. I love our system. Granted that I do have an insurer, I also benefit from medicare. When I was younger, my family could barely feed us. The Medicare system allowed for anti-biotics, check ups at the doctor, and even my psychiatrist visits (I would probably be dead along with some other people without that last one). Might not work for America, on account of the shit economy, Zionism, and niggers, but it works for us.
>>55433546
And now you have ISIS and another war for the Jews. You have merely replaced a small kebab with an extra large kebab with humus, exclusively for Goldstein.
>>55433858
>America has a shit economy compared to Australia
Are you fucking kidding me?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29
>United States 17,348,075
>Australia 1,442,722
>>55433671
>Over 31% of every health care dollar goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc.
I just looked this up, but it's wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt:
Finnland spends 2.1% on administration.
The UK spends 3.3% on administration.
The US spends 7.3% on administration.
It does have a citation for 2003 you can look up at least and I assume all other costs (overhead, profits, salaries etc.) are roughly the same so strictly speaking bureaucracy costs aren't that much higher in comparison.
Sure they're twice as much, but overall you're paying 5% more at best with roughly the same coverage if you compare the size of the US to EU countries. Though I can't comment a quality of the service, but you can probably look that up too somewhere and I'd bet the US has it better than we do at least.
That 31% just looks like statistical illusion to make the number seem bigger than it actually is.
>go to hospital for chest pain
>wait 4-5 hours in waiting room,
>finally get put into a room
>still have to wait another hour for a doctor to arrive
yeah real fuckin' nice healthcare up here
>>55433209
I'm sorry, but honestly if they were worth something to society, they wouldn't be poor and dying.
The worthy of society shouldn't have to lug around the worthless solely because of muh feels. Nothing is really free anywhere in the world, and that's all Bernie is running on. You can't take from those who work and just give to those who refuse.
Up until the age of 12 I was surviving off of food donation boxes from churches because my father refused welfare. My father worked his ass off to take care of me and my brother, just to barely scrape by sometimes. If there's one thing I know, is what's it's like to be poor. You know what though, we survived, and as I grew older I continued to better myself, as has my family. I currently have a cushy job working all expenses paid in Hawaii, because instead of sitting around on welfare like the majority in this country on welfare, crying "poor pitiful me, give me more money from dem programs ", I worked my ass off to pull myself out of the slumps.
Don't Fucking dare try and tell me that jamal, jose, or Cletus have a right to my money when I bust my ass every day to ensure I can survive.
Fuck you, fuck welfare niggers of all races, and most of all fuck Bernie Sanders.
>>55433780
>Many more skip treatments that their insurance company refuses to cover. That’s rationing. Other countries do not ration in this way.
That isn't true. There are services that still aren't covered by single-payer health plans.
Most healthcare spending is done at the end of life. From Canada's healthcare website for example:
>A number of services provided by hospitals and physicians are not considered medically necessary, and are not insured by provincial and territorial health insurance plans. Uninsured hospital services for which patients may be charged include...private duty nursing services. Uninsured physician services for which patients may be charged include prescription renewals by telephone; the provision of medical certificates required for work, school, insurance purposes and fitness clubs; testimony in court; and cosmetic services.
The phrase "are not considered medically necessary" is important. If a healthcare effort is considered futile, would it get covered? If not, who foots the bill? If a treatment is experimental? Not deemed "standard of care" by whatever authority is in place?
Rationing still happens, and on a cost basis.
>>55419025
Before Obamacare, I spent way less money on healthcare. I paid like 20 bucks per month for catastrophic insurance. It was great. Rather than spending 200 bucks per paycheck (employer subsidized) for the best health insurance in the state, I spent 20 bucks, and went to the doctor once per year for a checkup and an allergy shot.
Now I HAVE to pay 200 bucks per month. Smart adults realize that if they make healthy decisions, they can have random acts of massive bad luck covered, and the rest of it can be covered, easy-peasy. I spent less money on 5 years of catastrophic insurance than I did for 1 year of "Employer subsidized" insurance.
>>55433920
http://www.latimes.com/business/healthcare/la-fi-medical-prices-20120527-story.html
>>55433959
Rationing happens in the US as well.
Also all of those sound entirely reasonable for not being covered by insurance. Those things are already not covered by insurance in the US as well.
>>55419484
This. Only beta yanks think universal healthcare works. Check my flag. The NHS requires more money every year, its simply a flawed concept. You don't maintain such a system you manage its inevitable collapse. The bigger the country the more unrealistic it is to implement. About 60m of us here and we can't handle it. If the US didn't allow insurance companies to get in bed with the government they wouldn't have a problem.
What makes me laugh is the 'morality' based arguments for such a system. You must be incredibly naive if you think that replacing money as a barrier to access healthcare with state based tax funded decisions, is better. NICE turn down medicine all the time because *they* think it's too expensive. So in reality what you actually get is less choice, the decisions are just moved somewhere else away from the patient so even if you had the money for the medicine yourself the state can still deny you access to it. Also how about this? How far will lefties allow a single patient's care go as it uses more and more of others' allotted care? Not going to stop someone with a rare illness after £10k treatment? £100k? £1m? It's a flawed concept when you establish a system on feels.
>>55433852
>http://www.pnhp.org/news/2012/july/single-payer-does-not-equal-increased-wait-times
>Now it’s possible that single payer systems can lead to increased wait times. In Canada, they keep spending far below what we put out. They do so partially by spacing out visits for elective procedures and such. That’s a conscious decision, and it leads to some people waiting for elective care. But that’s an outcome of their financial conservatism, not the single payer system.
This statement is dumb. Yes, it is because it is a single payer system where the government is the insurer who deems what is acceptable for spending and what isn't.
I don't get sick and the ACA made shit far more expensive across the board.
So I either pay out my ass for something I don't use or get penalized for not paying for something I don't use.
Brilliant system.
![1330489475627[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/Tc9fboY.png "1330489475627[1].png")
>>55423052
>I got mine, fuck everybody else
'Murica
>>55434000
Yep, and none of that would happen under a single payer system because all services would have a standard set price, and insurance companies couldn't just charge you whatever they felt like.
>>55434035
No, it's because there are more patients than doctors available. When everyone is insured of course it will be more likely there will be wait times. It has nothing to do with if they will refuse to provide you with care or not, that just simply doesn't happen.
>>55433898
And how much of that is owed to China?
>>55434073
Since when do people owe each other things for simply living in the same place.
>>55434007
This is the problem with the public trying to make any sort of medical policy decision making.
If a woman comes to the ER with a perforated intestine causing sepsis, then shock, resulting in an MI, she's in pretty dire straights. The only hope she has of survival is surgery to open her abdomen; it's a 0% chance versus a 1% chance. The surgery, under strict medical terms, might be considered futile. Would a single payer system cover this cost, or force the hospital to eat it? Might that influence a physician's decision to offer intervention if they have significant institutional pressure on them to not proceed?
Also, insurance companies here do pay for certain experimental procedures. Here, for example:
http://www.dor.kaiser.org/external/DORExternal/research_report/research_clinical.aspx
And I hate Kaiser.
>>55433932
Is Canada really this shitty? Or do you just not know how to staff your medical centers?
I'm yet to wait more than 20 minutes for a doctor.
>>55434152
Most Canadians that can afford to choose to get their cancer treated in the US. This is for very good reason.
>>55434113
Lol now I know you know absolutely nothing about economics
>muh Chinese debt!
Here you go friend:
http://moneymorning.com/2015/07/10/how-the-u-s-debt-works/
So China owns a percentage of that. By doing so, we have made the value of their currency go up and have boosted their economy. If they ever asked us to pay back our debt, they would be literally crashing their own economy. It would be suicide. They don't want us to pay back our debt. Government debt is not the same at all as individual debt.
>>55434147
>Would a single payer system cover this cost
Yes, the Hippcratic Oath would still exist
>>55434080
The original statement was that the single payer system will increase wait times. Wait times are a measure of healthcare quality, as it extends the burden of disease. Physicians numbers, as government employees, are controlled by funding. Less funding, less physicians, more wait time. If you spend more, you get more.
So, as I was saying, there is less quality in the single payer systems cited by you, as reflected by longer wait times, so less cost is not a surprise. If they were to staff their system with an equivalent number of physicians, a more accurate cost comparison could be made.
>>55433932
>chest pain
This is called triage. Unless you were quite literally having a heart attack they don't give a shit. You have to wait at a hospital for hours in the US just for chest pain as well. Just chest pain isn't life threatening unless you are having a heart attack, and it's very easy for them to tell if you are.
>>55434249
With a single payer system you can cut administration costs and put the money into buying more doctors to offset that. It's around $300 billion to spend on more doctors.
>>55434232
>55434232
Insurance companies are bound by the Oath? No, physicians are. We're talking about payment of treatment. They would do the procedure all right... but the patient would foot the bill. There is nothing in the oath about not paying for service.
>>55434146
since person 1 can be conscripted and sent off to die to protect person 2's property.
Other people are paying for a whole bunch of shit you use and they don't. That's how taxes work. If you believe in taking money from people to pay for the military and the police, then you believe in wealth redistribution by government. Everything else is just semantics.
>>55433955
>implying this is true
You have to be pants-on-head retarded to grow up poor and think that the only reason people are poor is because they are too lazy to work. I'm talking serious brain damage.
>>55434073
Well why not? Are you saying the opposite is better? I don't have so give me? If more people took responsibility we wouldn't have so many problems.
>>55434179
Yeah, because the USA is ten times the size of Canada and is able to support a far greater array of specialists.
>>55434264
Never been to the ER for chest pain in the states, but I've been in for a few other reasons, and never had to wait.
>>55434289
Yes, and when you have a publicly owned power plant, you don't pay for "power plant administration."
You pay it to the politicians, who make all the major decisions regarding that power plant despite the fact that they have absolutely no idea how one works or what is needed.
This is how private power plants are able to compete and even flat-out beat most public power plants.
One can safely assume that, in America, the results of the Public owning healthcare would be similar.
>>55434366
It's because the USA has the highest cancer survival rates in the world.
>oppose universal health care
We have "universal" "health" "care" in the United States. We have since 1986 when Reagan signed EMTALA into law. What you're demanding is compulsory government health insurance.
>>55434293
Single payer healthcare covers operations like that though anyway, so it is entirely a moot point.
It doesn't cover things like, cosmetic surgery, private nurses, fitness clubs, etc. Things that US insurance already doesn't cover. It would not cover the exact same shit that insurance already doesn't cover, and cover even more that insurance doesn't cover currently.
ITT kids talking about things they have no experience of. Funny how most of the universal hc proponents are American. Hmmm..
>>55434389
Insurance can be purchased to cover anything not elective, e.g. cosmetic surgery.
>>55434289
I'm not going to defend hospital administration. Ever. EVER. It truly is a shame that physicians felt that they would have someone else run their business.
But it isn't binary; it isn't the current system or single payer only. Wrenching care from administration as well as tort reform would do wonders. Administration is not a fundamental part of healthcare; it's a rather new involvement, all things considered.
>>55434367
Here's a video as proof:
https://youtu.be/RaQdd8bUaXk?t=36m11s
>>55434389
>It doesn't cover things like, cosmetic surgery, private nurses, fitness clubs, etc. Things that US insurance already doesn't cover. It would not cover the exact same shit that insurance already doesn't cover, and cover even more that insurance doesn't cover currently.
Ho ho ho that's all covered here m8 which is why the NHS is collapsing. People just want more and more, want to work less and live longer, that's how stupid the common man is.
Government can just borrow more though, right? That's why people genuinely believe the Tories are killing the NHS, not the fact it's an utterly unsustainable idea.
>>55434434
>Funny how most of the universal hc proponents are American
Because we're desperate for getting care that we can't afford to get now that you spoiled Brits can already get for free
>>55434389
>Single payer healthcare covers operations like that though anyway, so it is entirely a moot point.
It isn't a moot point, that's what I was trying to get at. The surgery stated there might be seen as futile and unneeded by whatever body governs what gets paid. There is a line between what is "medically necessary" and what isn't. Who do you think makes that decision in a single payer system?
>>55434462
>It truly is a shame that physicians felt that they would have someone else run their business.
Yes, it is. Unfortunately, they tend to feel they have no choice because of the mountain of federal paperwork involved with providing health care in the US and the risk of frivolous lawsuits for which they cannot recover litigation fees.
>>55434486
I don't care. The point is that if you have something serious (say, and axe wound), you go right to the front of the line in the US. I can't speak to Canada one way or the other.
>>55434512
The UK economy does not work at all in the same way the US economy works. See here: >>55434204
Secondly, the US GDP is fucking MILES ahead of the UK. Your economy is just absolutely in shambles compared to what ours is like. You don't even come close to ours. If we got single payer health care, any kind of influence it could possible have over our economy would literally just be a drop in the bucket to how immense our economy is.
>>55434515
>Free.
Only the poor would describe it as that, anon. Because it isn't free. It's at, "little to no cost for the poor," and "increased cost to everyone else."
You want a solution? De-regulate. Then, when you know that you have impatigo, you don't have to pay 120 bucks out of pocket just to get a piece of paper allowing you to pay 30 dollars for a cream to rub on it.
It really is that simple.
>>55434522
No. No it isn't. It's because they are a bunch of fractious backstabbers. The addition of more women and minorities haven't helped, it's not a very cohesive group.
As far as litigation that definitely doesn't help. But if the AMA was actually a useful organization instead of the CPT funded tits they are, things would be different.
>>55434528
You go to the front of the line with something serious in Canada too, it is called triage.
>>55419025
>I hope you fuckshits end up getting something that insurance either won't cover or only partially covers and that you have to file for chapter 7.
I hope you move to Canada/UK for "free" healthcare, but then end up being unable to afford your present lifestyle because of higher taxes. I then hope you start getting symptoms of a deadly illness but you cannot be sure since you are put on a waiting list for 3.5 years just to even test if you do have that illness. I then hope that during that 3.5 years waiting to receive some sort of treatment YOU FUCKING DIE YOU PIECE OF SHIT COMMUNIST FAGGOT!
>>55434365
>Are you saying the opposite is better? I don't have so give me?
Not that it's a binary choice, but yeah. In one case, you're taking someone's money. In the other, you're leaving someone to die. I think if you look it up in the penal code stealing ranks a lot lower than negligent homicide.
>>55434434
if you think the American system is so great, why are you living in the UK?
>>55434515
You must be fucking joking. 'Free'? The ride is only good while the money is there, which won't be for much longer. It's unsustainable. Fact. The bigger the population the more unrealistic it is to implement. See >>55434512
And >>55434023
I work for the NHS BTW. I hear consultants joking about 'bracing for the collapse'. There's so much shit patients do not know.
>>55434579
Neat. Wasn't my point.
>>55434576
Can you detail to me how deregulation is going to lead to lower prices?
>>55434609
>The ride is only good while the money is there
You're in the UK though, see here: >>55434562
>>55434311
>If you believe in taking money from people to pay for the military and the police, then you believe in wealth redistribution by government
This is an average Sanders supporter everybody.
P.S the U.S. is not in a constant draft and police and military produce useful things for our country. Paying for people's shit for no reason other than fee fee's is stupid.
>>55434583
>I then hope you start getting symptoms of a deadly illness but you cannot be sure since you are put on a waiting list for 3.5 years just to even test if you do have that illness. I then hope that during that 3.5 years waiting to receive some sort of treatment
or the next day. That's how long it took me to get my last doctor's appointment. But you clearly have watched a fox news special or something so you'd probably know more about it than me.
this is you. this is what you sound like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GvDyJobHTM
>but then end up being unable to afford your present lifestyle because of higher taxes
hmmm - newest iphone, or not being left to die if I get sick? iphone or life, iphone or life - fuck, it's a tough decision but I think I'll have to go with life.
>>55434264
>i've never been inside a hospital before.
>>55434585
>if you think the American system is so great, why are you living in the UK?
Nice 2D thinking mate. USA HC is ridiculous but that doesn't mean ours isn't either. Like I said I work for the NHS and see everyday how flawed a concept it is. Don't get me wrong all the individuals who make up the trust are great but things are only golden while the money is there and we've been borrowing to fund the NHS for years. It's mathematically unsustainable, its a fact. You can't have it all. Every year it requires a bigger budget as people live longer, work less and want everything covered by tax payers. You can only kicj the can down the road for so long. The only way to keep the NHS up is to increase taxes to a disgraceful level.
>>55434693
I offered proof: >>55434486
Every time I've been to the ER unless you are actually in any serious danger you wait, there are always lines
>>55434625
Sure. I'll give you a fairly recent example. Remember that guy who jacked the price of an AIDS pill up by like 7000%? Used to be around 7 bucks per pill, and is now in the hundreds or thousands of dollars per pill?
Another company came in, and made the pill into a capsule, so that they wouldn't violate patenting. Selling it for a dollar per pill. But, if they were to run it through the FDA regs, they would have to pass those costs on to you, which is the explicit reason they said they weren't.
So, due to not applying for FDA approval, they were able to get a pill out immediately at 1/7 the price of the "old, cheap" price.
Every bit of medicine that goes through the FDA faces the same thing. Now, sure, creating the pill costs a lot of R&D, which those guys really didn't have to do much of, but when you get a solution that works, AND have to push it through the FDA on top of that, it inflates the cost even more.
>>55434641
So hey, why is US GDP higher than the UK's? Could domestic policy have anything to do with it? I mean, we should just copy all their policies. It will just work better here because we have more money, and the GDP will be unaffected by adopting every socialist policy under the sun! When we increase taxes on businesses, surely there shall be no ill effects.
>>55434331
Why work, when you can get just as much money as you would by actually working(considering education and job knowledge/abilities), while sitting at home doing drugs and pooping out babies? America has a welfare problem in that we are far too lenient with who gets federally backed aid, and for how long.
I do honestly think that there is a solid majority in the US that refuse to work simply because they are too lazy, and really don't have to given the "safety net" in place. You can be black and get Obama bucks, you can be fat and get Obama bucks, you can be a retard and get Obama bucks. Most of those in welfare are a drain on society because most are fully capable of working, but won't because there's no reason to given the welfare programs in place.
It's not my fault that you dropped out of high school at 14 to join the crips, because you decided to have unprotected sex and got pregnant, or because you decided that you wanted to run away.
Why should it be my, and America's responsibility to take care of those who refuse to trade care of themselves? Why should it be my, and America's responsibility to take care of you because you made poor decisions in the past? Why should it be my and America's responsibility to take care of you and your 7 kids from different baby daddies because you refuse to practice safe sex?
Fuck all you lazy fucks.
>>55434673
>P.S the U.S. is not in a constant draft
you have to sign up for the draft, so even if it hasn't been used in a while it legally could be at any moment.
>police and military produce useful things for our country.
see, that's a matter of opinion. I bet quite a lot of your fellow citizens think that handing out parking tickets and blowing up sandniggers is less useful than, say, paying a doctor to turn a cripple into a productive member of society. As I said, semantics.
Weak bait man, peeps needs foods xxxxxxxDDDDD
>>55434810
Better than conscription. The draft is a very good motivator to keep people's eyes on their politicians. In theory, it should keep corruption to a minimum, because the people SHOULD revolt against any draft that is not in direct self defense of an invading/overly aggressive force.
>>55434641
Don't understand your point, seems we are in agreement that it's just a money hole that constantly requires more money. It's essentially a debt with no financial ROI. Also, it incentivises people to not bother working. Why work when the tax payer with shell out for your food, housing and healthcare? Socialism sure sounds great, for those not paying for it.
Universal healthcare that is not driven by market forces essentially turns healthcare into a zero sum game, when it previously wasn't. Eg where do you draw the line for a single patient's care? How would you solve disproportionate care? Protip you can't
>>55434673
Except the consumer spending slows down when a good chunk of the consumers have no money to spend. That slows down the economy and reduces corporate income. This leads to job cuts, and higher unemployment. Federal tax income falls, and since more people have no jobs, they don't have money to spend either. And the circle continues.
>live a healthy life style
>don't make stupid risky decisions that could cause me serious harm
>never have to visit the hospital for anything
You can keep your expensive Healthcare
>>55434810
>see, that's a matter of opinion
No, it isn't. Why don't you think a politician just runs on a "no more parking ticket" platform, get elected, and stop the issuing of parking tickets? Because people realize it is a needed thing.
The more abstract one is blowing up sandniggers, which is more about regional alliances that at the end of the day benefit us.
>>55434709
>increase taxes to a disgraceful level.
I'm actually conversing with someone who can talk calmly about leaving millions of people to die in the gutter but will describe raising taxes past a certain point as 'disgraceful'.
As for the impending collapse of the NHS - it's lasted seventy years. Let's see if we can get another few decades out of it before we give up and go back to only providing healthcare for the rich.
>>55434716
The ER is for serous danger. Your not supposed to go there if your rummy hurts. The few times I've gone to the ER I was treated within 30 minutes. You should schedule an appointment with your doctor for anything that can wait.
>>55434909
Or go to an urgent care. For things that aren't quite emergent but you want addressed the same day.
>>55434868
Not everybody can live a healthy lifestyle you privileged faget
>>55434894
>No, it isn't. Why don't you think a politician just runs on a "no more parking ticket" platform, get elected, and stop the issuing of parking tickets? Because people realize it is a needed thing.
But when people vote for a president to provide government run healthcare that doesn't count.
Also, I don't think you understand what an opinion is. The fact that people vote for it does not make something a fact.
>>55434959
>Not everybody can live a healthy lifestyle you privileged faget
Why not? Is healthy food expensive? Is not fucking everything that moves a huge task? Do you get paid to smoke? What the fuck do you mean by that?
>>55433663
im late but
>using median when talking about american money
stop that
>>55434909
I wouldn't even bother giving this dude an explanation. The fact that he is pushing socialized medicine so HARD means that he's already made his mind up about it. And since he's made up his mind about it, he probably hasn't done any research.
>>55434959
Actually, it's very easy and very cheap to live a healthy lifestyle. It's the vices that get you into trouble. But if they can't afford a healthy lifestyle, I have no idea how they could possibly afford an ER visit. Those are super expensive, so much so that even with the best insurance in the state of Kansas, there would be a minimum of a 100 dollar bill for each time I would go.
Most health plans are at least triple that. It makes the copay for the regular doctor seem rather timid, no?
>>55434993
He's most likely trolling.
Eating healthy is stupid cheap and exercise is free, so there's really no excuse. It's just that people are lazy and addicted to their self destructive habits. These people usually have no foresight and just do what feels good at the moment.
>>55434865
Your right. I know lets tax the fuck out of everyone so they're really poor, then give all that money to government so they can waste it on people that don't work or useless projects. That sounds swell. The government is so good at doing everything else.
>>55434991
You were saying that police/military being useful was a matter of opinion. Certain things are objectively needed. A civilization having some form of defense has been universal since the dawn of humanity. Not so healthcare.
>But when people vote for a president to provide government run healthcare that doesn't count.
They also elected a congress that didn't really like that afterwards.
>>55435097
Should have caught that myself.
Yeah, socialized medicine is really about pushing the costs of stupid behavior onto others. Again, back before Obamacare, catastrophic insurance wound up costing me 5 bucks per week.
>>55419025
>if you disagree with me, I wish violence or terminal illness on you
Real tolerant, you faggot.
>>55435057
i'm not late but
>using the world as a benchmark for income when talking about what an individual can afford in one country
stop that
>>55434904
>leaving millions of people to die
Your being a little dramatic here. Millions of people are not going to die. If they are that bad at life, maybe its good to weed out bad genetics. People have been living without uni care for a long time now. I don't understand why we suddenly need to implement it now because you want to save the poor childrens.
>>55434810
Are you saying that the only people able to enforce the law should be the people able to afford their own private law enforcement?
A national self defence force is most definitely needed, as that is the thing that keeps other nations from coming and taking what isn't theirs.
>>55435143
>socialized medicine is really about pushing the costs of stupid behavior onto others
Best summary of the problem as it relates to a society.
>>55434904
Listen mate, saying it has lasted 70 years is so naive I now know you're probably a child who doesn't even work or pay income tax.
Do you have any idea how many schemes have been tried since the 1960s in order to prop it up just a little more? Ever heard of PFI schemes? New labour realised the NHS cannot continue in its idealistic form (even though no politicians believed in the idealism hence its beginnings as a mere optician subsidy amongst a few other trivialities) so decided to collect private investment for public subsidies, guess what? That failed too, and left and right call it the failure it was.
It's very telling that instead of addressing my points you've brought emotion in to play. Did I say millions should die instead if raising taxes? No, you're putting words in my mouth and is a sign you don't know how to respond.
You could have asked me many things about my 10yr experience working for the trust to better your understanding but instead you cling to confirmation bias. You'll learn that hearing all sides of an argument and having opinions that can change is what creates a healthy and informed opinion.
I shall not converse with you further as you have nothing to contribute to the debate. You've already shown youre trapped within a "must be x or y" mindset.
>>55435232
That and more lives have been saved by hygiene and habitat than anything else. Might want to include vaccinations as well, which are under "prevention" and not "treatment".
>>55434993
b-but muh coke is cheaper than water
>>55435138
actually, most countries didn't have standing armies paid for by the government until - well actually that's an extremely complex area to go in to but it certainly wasn't the norm, historically. Likewise, governments didn't start paying for police forces until the 19th century.
>>55434904
Back before Health Care was socialized, catastrophic insurance cost people 20 bucks per month. This insurance plan meant that you were completely on your own for the first 10k, but after that, they would cover everything. Also, keep in mind that it is very easy to declare bankruptcy.
Anyone dying in the gutter is someone who is either stupid (like literally lacking in IQ) or so lazy that they expect others to pick up the slack for them. 20 dollars per month is nothing in the states.
>>55435319
So you're saying that there was no law enforcement entities until the 19th century? Huh, that's interesting. Guess it was just anarchy until police were invented.
>>55434783
Around 35% of the population is on welfare.
Unemployment rate is 5.5%. And only a quarter of the unemployed recieve unemployment benefits, meaning that a solid 1.5% of the population get paid for being "lazy to work".
Rest of the population is getting financial assistance for housing, child payments, food stamps, etc.
Notice how the overall number of people getting assistance is far GREATER than the number of people receiving unemployment benefits? Or the number of unemployed people overall?
That's because even when people do get jobs, those jobs often are not good enough to cover their costs of living.
Around 15% of the working population is underemployed, meaning that they are working, and want to work even more, but are not given the opportunity to. This is the very opposite of "lazy".
The welfare system you have imagined is nothing like the real world.
And, I mean, you grew up dirt poor, right? So I shouldn't have to explain this situation, because you know what it's really like to live on the lower side, right?
>>55435346
Haha, it's funny to treat patients who have no grasp whatsoever on their disease process. It's actually sad and futile, really. Did a couple of bypasses on this guy's legs to save them... he'd leave AMA, do cocaine, and then wonder why his legs became cold again. Later, rinse, repeat. Eventually did a bilateral above knee amputation on him, last time I saw him.
>>55435378
He also just said militaries didn't exist in ancient civilizations.
>>55435378
Funny that you mention that. If you look back on history, it was typically:
>Invent law/pass decree
>Enforce it on the poor
>Let the rich slide on it
A national police force is what made the rich accountable.
>>55435464
At least we can sit back and breathe easy that this dude has pretty much bankrupted himself while disfiguring his body to the point that he will not have any (more) offspring. And thus, nature digs up laziness by its roots.
Now, if only people would study welfare.... Fun fact, right up to the point where welfare was instated in the states, the percentage of people living below the poverty line dropped by 1 percent per year. After welfare, that percentage has more or less stayed stagnant, if not grown a little.
And to think that some people's solution to this mess is just to throw more money into welfare.
>>55435557
He already had 10 kids (that he knew of). Of course, being that he was never there for them, none were with him ever. I also liked how he felt he was doing me a favor by consenting to surgery. How long I sat with him, every time, trying to explain in the simplest language what was going on. Just never sunk in.
>>55435644
I know a guy like that. He has 8 kids that he knows about through 5 or 6 mothers. So, with all that child support, what does he do? He goes, gets a vasectomy, then quits his very well paying job (worked at General Electric), and now spends his days refilling shelves at Walmart.
The state will take care of them, after all!
Then my wife sees him on facebook going on about how rough single moms have it and how they are so strong. She couldn't help taking a few jabs at him. Firstly, the fact that he wasn't willing to pay for his own children. Secondly, that the moms were relying on the state.
He doesn't talk to us anymore.
>>55435307
>Listen mate, saying it has lasted 70 years is so naive
Well it was founded in 1946 so saying that is not so much naive as factual.
>Ever heard of PFI schemes?
Yes. New Labour brought in a bunch of private financing so they could keep the costs of their increased NHS spending off the books. It wasn't a matter of continuing the NHS as it was - they were increasing spending significantly. And they failed because involving the private sector in healthcare inevitably ends up in hospitals getting scammed.
>Did I say millions should die instead if raising taxes?
You say we shouldn't have the NHS. Without the NHS there are millions of Britons, as a matter of basic mathematics, who simply cannot afford private healthcare. Whether you say it out loud or not, that is what you are advocating for so don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth simply because I take your plans to their logical conclusion.
>brought emotion in to play
you were the one who called higher taxes 'disgusting'. I was simply referencing that.
>You could have asked me many things about my 10yr experience working for the trust
okay, what is it that you do, exactly, and why does that qualify you to comment on the state of the entire NHS?
>You'll learn that hearing all sides of an argument and having opinions that can change is what creates a healthy and informed opinion.
Oh I heard you all right. It's just that what you said is bullshit. Being nice to idiots doesn't create healthy and informed debate, it's what creates a deadlock where no one is right or wrong and nothing gets done. Some opinions are simply illogical and un-factual, and constantly and aggressively picking away at their inconsistencies is how truth is arrived at.
>I shall not converse with you further as you have nothing to contribute to the debate
well look at that, everyone - he's declared victory. Guess I'll just pack up and go home.
>>55435831
>Well it was founded in 1946 so saying that is not so much naive as factual.
Just because you purchased your first computer back in 1990 and have upgraded all the OS's and parts (in the same box) doesn't mean that you have a 25 year old computer anon. It's been modified so much to keep it afloat (and it's still failing), that it isn't the same law that was passed 70 years ago. That was the point he was making.
Now yes, if the law had been unchanged since its inception, or even relatively unchanged, then I would side with you. But it's been radically changed.
>>55435378
>Guess it was just anarchy until police were invented.
actually, generally the local landowner just paid a couple of thugs to keep people in line. Except in the cities, which did pretty much descend into anarchy as they started growing with the onset of the industrial revolution. The rich paid for private security and the poor got by as best they could, often relying on criminal gangs to enforce some sort of order.
>>55435497
professional militaries paid for by the government. We are taking about taxes here, remember. In the middle ages for example central government had very little power and soldiers were mostly vassals of some lord or another - i.e. the lord gave them some of his private property in return for their military service. Or take the thirty years war, where almost all the participating armies were mercenaries fighting for whoever could pay them by whatever means on that particular day. Or the citizen-armies of the Greek city states, where every adult man of the polis was expected to serve in the army in times of need and support himself out of his own private finances. Professional, full time armies paid for by taxes collected by the government weren't unheard of but they were certainly the minority throughout history.
