>God creates universe
>God Creates humans
>God Creates sin
>God knows the past, present and future
>knows who will sin and for what
>creates hell for sinners, even though he knows exactly who will sin and who will be atheist
>Impregnates prostitute, the baby is himself? Preaches, dies, resurrect, and now you can go to heaven by believing in him
>knows who will actually believe in him
>God creates a pointless universe with pointless rules because he already knows who goes to hell and doesn't
>God creates Hell just for the purpose of sending humans he already knows will sin/not believe
>>55414788
Hell is not really mentioned in the bible, especially when you remove revelations, which was just an allegory for events that already happened.
Additionally, the notion of belief in spite of lack of evidence is not present in the bible at all. The point is that good people glorified and stayed with a god they KNEW was there when given the choice to do otherwise. Everyone will have a fair chance to make their choice, in this life or beyond.
>>55414788
Yes
Yes
No, god created humans and angels. Humans and angels have freewill.
Yes
Yes
Hell was made up by the catholic church to scare people
God is not Jesus. Again the Catholic church makes somthing up
God never intended this to happen.
Hell dosnt exist
>>55415925
And you Ameritards make fun of the mudslimes.
Same shit different asshole.
>>55414788
>God knows the past, present and future
I don't understand this. Where is it ever said in the bible that God can see the future?
>>55415925
>God never intended this to happen
What kind of "omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing" diety is this guy?
>God never intended this to happen
Proof that the Bible is literally just a bunch of boooks written by flawed humans who couldn't get their story straight.
>>55416166
>>55416263
Gods letting it unfold to actually prove his point perfectly. Humans are unfit to rule themselves.
>God gives humans free will
>Therefore there are a million different outcomes in the future
God doesn't exist.
There is no debate. It is self-evident.
>>55414788
Where in the Bible does it say that God is a nice guy?
>>55416185
All things are present to God. Everything that was, is, or ever will be exists because he is aware it exists. This is what it means to be being itself--ipsum esse subsistens.
>>55416452
>Gods letting it unfold to actually prove his point perfectly. Humans are unfit to rule themselves.
That's actually self-defeating. If God knows humans are unit to rule themselves, there's no reason for it to let things unfold -- not that it can, since it's supposedly omniscient and knows every event, but whatever.
>>55416912
It doesn't provide proof of God either, fucking liberal.
>>55416929
Stop making shit up, please. Find me a quote from the bible that claims God to have the ability to see the future.
>>55417081
>There's no proof in the Bible that God can see in the future!!
Why call him God then if he's not all knowing?
>>55415925
>humans and angels have free will
Except when God hardens Pharaoh's heart a few times.
He was gonna let the Jews go like Moses asked, then God changed his mind. What's up with that?
>>55414788
>knows who will sin and for what
not true. he knows everyone has committed every sin in an infinite number of timelines
just because you can only see one timeline does not mean god is restricted to one
>>55417247
Because "God" does not mean "can see the future".
There have been hundreds if not thousands of gods throughout history and mythology, and most of them have never claimed to be able to see the future. Those that do tend to only do so in a very limited sense. So tell me, where does the Christian god make that claim?
>>55417081
You don't understand. It's not the future. God is stated to be responsible for ALL existence. Everything in the world is contingent on something else, they don't carry within themselves their reason for being. God is believed to be defined by that which contains the reason for its existence. His nature is simply to be. It simply follows from what God is said to be that all things are are contingent on him. The future is counted among 'things' in existence.
Colossians 1 16-17
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.…
You ok OP? You seem upset.
>>55417625
Sure, I get that he created the universe. I fail to see how it logically follows that he can see the future.
>The future is counted among 'things' in existence
This is false.
Yeah he knows people will sin, that's why churches are literally there for people to feel ashamed of and will atone for their sins
God does not micromanage shit, he started his religion so he can sit back and observe his creation, any intervention was long done
>>55417807
Psalm 139:4
Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely.
Happy?
>>55417912
Psalms are not canon. They are songs.
>>55417807
Considering He already lays out the ultimate destiny of the world and the joining of the Kingdom of Heaven with the material world. I'd say he explicitly telegraphs the future, and it's a little obtuse to then ask why people think he knows the future.
Do people on /pol/ actually believe in god?
Ha I knew you were all idealist children.
>>55418203
First, yes they are. Second, Canon is defined by the Holy Tradition. The Biblical Canon is only Canon because the Holy Tradition deemed it canon over 1500 years ago. So it doesn't make sense to ask for a Bible verse to prove God sees all things at all time, when that is part of the Holy Tradition, from which the Bible comes.
I can simply cite the Holy Tradition by your own standards of proof.
>>55418231
Knowing the ultimate destiny of the universe is not the same as knowing the individual thoughts and actions of everyone and everything in all of the future.
God created a universe with a beginning and an end. He knows how it will end, obviously, because he designed it that way. Then he created beings with free will. He does not and can not know how they will think or act in any given situation.
>>55418633
Yea but why does that faggot want to be worshipped?
>>55417496
Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
Isaiah 46:9-10
FUCK OFF
>>55418532
Psalms are song wirtten by hundreds of different people over the course of thousands of years. You can not look at the words of the song and say "yep, says so right here" and expect it to be treated as proof. Psalms are a reflection of the bible and need to be treated as such. They are not the word of God.
I can't believe I'm even arguing this with you, holy shit.
>>55418633
I gave you a psalm that said in plain language that he does, but you made up your own definition of Canon on the spot to deny the point. We use them in liturgy and in prayer. They're Canon. That's why they included them in the Bible.
>>55418953
>Psalms are song wirtten by hundreds of different people over the course of thousands of years.
The Bible is books written by hundreds of difference people over the course of thousands of years.
>>55418892
See
>>55418633
Knowing how the universe will end is not the same as knowing the absolutely everything about everything from here until then.
>>55418953
You think the Bible is like the Koran? Like it was dictated verbatim and transcribed by a stenographer? You think the only true words in the Bible come when the Father or the Son are quoted directly?
Post yfw you don't believe this delusional shit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(BDSM)
>>55418894
Christianity is why Europe and Weston civilization is light years ago ahead against other nations. It gave them monogamy and the beta male a reason to live and produce something worthwhile. I can't believe white people are throwing this away. I honestly will never understand white people.
>>55419482
*Western
>>55418894
this to be entirely and perfectly honest, my familiar-relation.
russian-bro knows what is up. I'm a non-believer but believe in the supremacy of the western tradition and cultural christianity is closely linked to that idea.
>>55419284
>>55419101
It's pretty funny watching this guy trip and fumble over trying to explain to mostly himself that he really believes this shit
>>55418763
Because YHWH is a memetic entity and him being in your thoughts gives him sustenance.
>>55419064
>>55419231
>>55419001
All three of you are missing the point. Psalms are not to be looked to for knowledge of God. They are a reflection of the Old Testament. They are not to be looked to for proof of anything.
So I ask again, prove to me that God can see the future. Quote from the bible.
>>55419677
Point out a single logical inconsistency, I dare you.
>>55419694
So god is like a parasite or a leach?
Yo Mary was not a prostitute. Wth you guys
>>55414788
nah, the flaw is simple.
>the universe is non-deterministic
All the possible threads in which time can progress are defined, but the one that gets to be "real" depends on out actions.
God knows you can end up in hell or not, but only you can decide where.
>To appreciate food, you must first be hungry
>>55419748
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).
“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).
>>55419811
your entire existence is a logical inconsistency. no one can be this stupid
>>55419748
Also, the Bible doesn't prove anything. I can't prove anything to you just by quoting the Bible.
>>55419992
So god lives in the multiverse now?
>All possible threads are defined
>guy dies in car accident
>"Everything happens for a reason. This was all part of God's plan"
so much for that explanation :^) wew
>>55419748
>prove to me that God can see the future.
retarded/10
Prove to me that God exists first.
>>55420108
Then from where does your insistence that God can see the future stem? If God cannot be known from the bible, and the bible is all we have to go on, how can you possibly claim that God can see the future so thoroughly that he can see the exact moment in time that each and every single one of us will sin?
>>55419868
All deities are delusions born from humankinds need to give reason to the chaos that is existence. Belief in them them builds a kind of abstract power that the cunning and shameless could use to oppress the timid dullards that make up 90% of the human population.
>God
>Real
Pick one
>>55420365
>the bible is all we have to go on
The knowledge of God that Christianity claims is the direct experiential knowledge of Christ, the Son of God. This experiential knowledge of those who know him the flesh and friend and teacher is the Holy Tradition preserved in the Church in the unbroken line of teacher-to-student in the successors of the apostles and their disciples to today. The Bible arose from this, and ultimately our understanding of God comes from our understanding of who Jesus was, what he taught to his followers, and what they taught to their students, and so on until today.
It's just like how a eastern martial arts masters would pass down their teachings for a thousands years to successive masters.
Bible study is a protestant fixation that omits much of the other textual, physical, and historical elements of Christian tradition.
Pray and you will come to know God. You don't have to be literate to experience sophia or achieve theosis.
>>55421319
Why does god make it so hard to know him?
He likes to play games, it's like he's satan or something.
>>55421319
>avoiding the question
I'm spent my entire life dedicated to understanding the bible and the works of God. If my experiences are just as valid as anyone else's experiences and mine tell me that God does not and can not know the exact details of everyone's life before they are even born and yours tell me otherwise, how do we settle this difference?
>>55421514
It's easy to know God. WE make it hard. We are fallen and imperfect, and inclined to look inward to ourselves as the source of all truth, meaning, and purpose (see: the average modern liberal college student).
The search for God is simply to search for truth beyond ourselves, which is very difficult to convince many people even exists. I don't really think it's the mystical or fantastic stuff that really bothers people about all of the God talk. I think it's the idea that there is something objective, immutable, and absolute in existence, and that thing might not perfectly align with their own personal preferences and feelings. That REALLY pisses some people off.
>>55421711
Your experiences are not as valid as a person who walked with, and talked with, laughed with, and touched Christ in the flesh. Nor are mine. I do not claim special knowledge greater than yours. I believe the Church has preserved the truth of Christ and accurately passes on what the Apostles knew to be true.
How much of Christian writings have you studied? Remember, Christianity is a real historical phenomenon in addition to a spiritual one. It has real people to learn about. You should be interested in early Christian writings, many of which come from men who were a single generation removed from Christ, and studied directly under the Apostles and/or their disciples. Surely they had something worthwhile to say.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
>>55418894
Зaeбaл этo пocтить, oтбpoc.
>>55421802
Yea but if he made us, then why does he choose to make life / having faith difficult?
And why does he need to be worshipped at all?
>>55422371
If he NEEDED to be worshiped, he would have made up little worshiping automatons. Clearly it pleases him that we are free beings, rather than lifeless dolls for him to play with.
>>55422529
>he would have made up little worshiping automatons
What are churches?
So you're saying his existence is just as meaningless as everyone elses
>>55422607
Heh, you can chose to worship God or not. It's for your sake, not his. It strengthens us, not him (like it would a pagan God).
Some ideas are better left to literature than to philosophical debate. Here's something to get your mind off of medieval Scholastics, and on a more enjoyable subject connected to Christian thought. Maybe it will give you a glimpse of the nuances of Christian metaphysics from a different perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOQNGrUcK4c
Hell is misunderstood and corrupted in the translation of most bibles. The word hell was translated from Sheol which simply means the underworld. Everyone goes to Sheol when they die but it's split in half one is a dark bad place you do not want to end up the other is paradise. Sin can and does lead people to the bad part of Sheol but i do not think it is eternal. If you want to find out more about it and how the word "eternal" was translated start searching "Universal Reconciliation". God is not a bad person he does not send people to a burning hell for eternity. The lake of fire was made for the devil and his demons not humans. Jesus died for your sins it's impossible not to sin but you have to try to fight it and limit it as much as possible.
>>55414788
God dont know if youll be goodor bad
Thats what free will is about
>>55414788
>>God creates universe
but that's wrong anon. God is continually creating the universe minute to minute, moment to moment. Without God you would cease to exist. Give thanks to God.
>>55422812
>muh silmaril
>>55422168
>Your experiences are not as valid as a person who walked with, and talked with, laughed with, and touched Christ in the flesh. Nor are mine.
Obviously. Their experiences are expressed via the bible. So if their experiences are more valid we must look to the bible for understanding. So we come back to my original argument, which is that no where in the bible does it say that God can see the future and knows exactly how each man will sin. I say this with certainty because I've read nearly everything there is to read and it says this nowhere.
>>55422812
I guess I disagree that it "strengthens" someone. I was a christian as a child and it just stressed me out if anything. I much prefer not believing in god.
>>55414788
>>55422827
That's right, we are the rats in his maze
>>55423107
>just stressed me out if anything
That's unfortunate. Sounds like it was forced on you as a social obligation rather than something that was meant to be communicated as real, and true, or having anything to do with love, and fellowship.
I wouldn't want to deal with that either.
Guys look at this
>>55423213
Unrelated question: Would a girl who was locked up in a basement her whole life with no concept of god only to die of malnutrition, would she go to heaven or hell?
Does her suffering strengthen god?
>>55423048
How were those experiences expressed for the hundreds of years before a canonical Bible existed? The Church Fathers seemed to be under the impression that God is omniscient.
I frankly can't understand how a perspective that exists independent of time and space is contained by relativistic physics. I just don't think "future" has any meaning when we're talking about things that exist in the immaterial world.
>>55423048
>we come back to my original argument, which is that no where in the bible does it say that God can see the future and knows exactly how each man will sin
I came under demonic attack and some really weird stuff happened where God/The Holy Spirit did know what i was going to do before i did it.
So yeah in my experience God did know and although i did not understand why it happened at the time and i thought free will did not exist. I have a better grasp of it now and it's not that free will does not exist it's that God is omnipresent.
God uses evil as a tool to teach us and yes sometimes it is painful and not easy. This life is short and we are meant to grow and learn from it and realize that once we get to the other side how horrible evil is. I can tell you once this world is done and over we will never want sin in our lives again.
I truly believe that Jesus is powerful enough to save all. It will just take longer for some of us to come to repentance than others Sheol is not eternal.
>>55423443
Hel as commonly portrayed in media and fiction is a pagan concept. It's just a riff on the Greco-Roman Hades, and reiterated in medieval western poetry like the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lose (albeit great poetry).
If you read the likes of St. Isaac's 'Hell and the Scourge of Divine Love', you get an older, non-pagan understanding of what suffering in the afterlife means. You have to remember that this comes from the old Jewish description of God--a pillar of fire, the inapproachable light.
Everyone who dies is in the presence of God--there is no "other" place. There is no place where God does not exist. Our individual experience of God's presence is what we describe as heaven and hell. Hell is to be in the presence of the infinite love of God, and to hate it. To hate truth, to refuse to accept the reality of God. The fire of hell is the eternal fire and blinding light of truth of existence. Hell is a big fiery bear hug of love that burns anyone who can't accept it. To everyone else, it is eternal joy. It's up to us whether we can accept this love.
So being trapped in a basement your whole life has no bearing on whether you will be able to accept love. That depends on whether we chose to close ourselves off, retreat inward, and lose all faith.
>Does her suffering strengthen god?
No. It might strengthen her though.
>>55423267
sheeeeeit
>>55415925
found the jew
>>55424165
Well I could never respect a god so fickle and judgemental
Consider me an eternal hell wanderer
Honestly your beliefs sounds too simplistic, although I respect your choice to belief whatever you've been told
>>55423267
>sin
>suicide
>leave
>>55414788
If people questioned the rules or culture of something like sports and not religion then things would be better. But you have your own so you gotta shill, in a diary
>>55423267
Lust made geo
>>55424396
When did I ever use the world "judgement"?
If someone loves you, and you hate them, they're the bad guy? They're fickle? It just so happens that this someone is the sum total of reality and truth. Truth isn't judgmental, it just...is. You're under no coercion to accept it.
Just--for the sake of argument--forget about God, and all of that. Whatever is truth about our existence is just that: true. Something is either real or not. Now imagine that whatever it is, it's all revealed to you when you die--you clearly see the whole reality of existence. Now imagine a person who had to live on for all eternity indignantly hating the reality of existence that was finally revealed to them at their death. There's no judgement or punishment in that scenario, just facts and denial.
If God is real, suffering because you're pissed for all eternity that he's real isn't really a punishment. It's just self-imposed misery from stubbornness.
I wasn't told this in the sense that I wasn't raised in this Christian tradition. I came to it as an adult.
>>55414788
Yeah, nah. You have misunderstood quite a few things here, mate.
>>God creates universe
Yes
>>God Creates humans
Yes
>>God Creates sin
Man introduces sin
>>God knows the past, present and future
Exists outside of time
>>knows who will sin and for what
Yes
>>creates hell for sinners, even though he knows exactly who will sin and who will be atheist
Created for Satan and followers, death is not natural or part of God's creation
>>Impregnates prostitute, the baby is himself? Preaches, dies, resurrect, and now you can go to heaven by believing in him
Virgins can't be prostitutes, rest is true
>>knows who will actually believe in him
Yes
>>God creates a pointless universe with pointless rules because he already knows who goes to hell and doesn't
Creation is for his glory, and to show us love
>>God creates Hell just for the purpose of sending humans he already knows will sin/not believe
Untrue, see above
With most of this you can come to a further understanding by knowing the relation of free will, predestination, and love. At the same time, scripture tells us those without salvation can't truly understand to the depth believers can
A very good and convenient resource i like to use is "Got Questions?" A collection of articles on website also organized as a phone app
>>55423267
No man made.
Wut
>>55424852
I guess I disagree that we should attribute everything to god, does that mean he is responsible for the rape and torture for the entire span of human existence? And hating a being responsible for so much tragedy means they deserve hell?
That is awful, there are just so many inconsistencies and hypocrisy in religion. It is ultimately a slave and master relationship that was invented at the dawn of civilization to control the weak minded.
>>55414788
>creates hell for sinners
hell was created for the angelic being who choose to be a god unto themselves than give honor to their Creator. Hell was created for false gods. When humans reject God, they are choosing to be their own god, thereby becoming false gods.
>>55425671
Who's to say our God wasn't a false god who gained a lot of followers and given their own universe.
Sorry, the laws of the universe just aren't universal
>>55414788
Feeble human emotions and animal logic cannot comprehend the absolute nature and true will of God.
>>55423107
>I much prefer not believing in god.
the truth is too much for some people to handle
>>55425749
The laws of our universe are the laws of the archons.
>>55414788
> "I never asked to be born"
> "No one should have the chance of life/existence"
> "No one should have the chance to come to know God"
> "I never asked for this"
>>55425925
I think you are destined for hell if you don't worship me
But you are free to continue to believe in your false god or face the consequences
>>55425605
The problem of evil bothers most people, even believers.
It's not a new concept, or an oversight. In fact, wrestling with it is probably fundamental to faith.
I will point out though that the Christian metaphysics of sin and suffering are similar to Buddhist metaphysics of desire and suffering. I don't think there is a genuine connection to be made, but just as Buddhists think it is *literally* impossible to suffer if you free yourself from desire, Christians *literally* think it is impossible to suffer if we are freed from Sin.
Sin isn't breaking of law btw, the original Greek of the New Testament uses 'harmatia'. It's paired with archery terms, and refers to "missing the mark". If someone puts a target in front of you, no one has to tell you that you'd supposed to hit the bullseye. It's not a rule. It's just what you do. Right action, Godliness, is like that. Medieval Roman scholars are the ones who added a legalistic mindset to something that is fundamentally spiritual.
Without Sin, the world would *literally* have no suffering. Sin changed and changes the reality of human experience. Rape, pain, murder, sadness, death itself (natural disasters don't matter if you can't die), they all come from Sin warping reality.
>>55423107
>I much prefer not believing in god
Which concept of God? The old man in the sky strawman?
Or the God of a robust theology?
>>55423267
suicide
scum
hat
k.
>>55426074
Yes but he who claims ownership over all of existence (God) is responsible for all of it outcomes. But no, he pawns it off on the beings he created who have no choice but o worship him or suffer.
>>55425749
>the laws of the universe just aren't universal
read that again :)
a law of the universe would certainly be a universal law.
>>55426065
but you don't have any justification. If you had a bible or something powerful like that, or done something like Jesus, helping people reach salvation, I would give you a listen. The truth of God is powerful because it is the truth, it's self-evident. You are a great person I'm sure, but what have you done for me?
>>55426172
No concept of any god or master, I take responsibility for my own actions and try not to think of anything in particular
But if god wants to take human form and meet me in the ring for a fair fight I will do it. Me and you god 3 rounds I will beat the shit out of you. No superpowers, no nothing, just fists. Give me two minutes I will knock him out cold.
>>55426332
>claims ownership
mmm, not exactly. God created the universe, and continually breaths life into it moment to moment, but God doesn't own you like you own a pencil.
>>55417629
No, OP seems pretty reasonable actually.
>>55426428
I have the truth and ever greater love and you are willfully being blind to it.
Again it's up to you, but if I were you, i'd ask for my forgiveness ASAP
>>55426461
God doesn't give a shit about your petty and selfish attitude. God is the truth, whether you choose to see it or not is your decision.
>>55426526
God has already revealed the truth, you have just posted 2 things claiming some kind of supernatural power.
If you don't reply to this with a picture of your mom's tits you're not worth my time.
>>55426542
Ha god is the most selfish being there ever was.
Like I said, name a place god. No friends, no secret weapons. I will pummel you into the ground.
>>55426542
>God doesn't give a shit about your petty and selfish attitude.
But God created that anon. Everything you're posting right and everything that anon posted he foresaw. For him to have not seen it would prove he is not all powerful. Stop questioning God's creation.
>>55415925
>Humans and angels have freewill.
You mean humans, not angels. The whole purpose of human existence is NOT being flawless automata that serve god unflinchingly.
>>55426601
You are signing your own death warrant son
But that's all up to you, pal
>>55426332
You're anthropomorphizing truth (which is fine, that's God), but then only focusing on the personhood, and ignoring that it's still truth, which is supposed to be accepted for its own sake.
The "I fucking love science crowd" runs circles around facts and evidentiary thinking all day. They claim that facts aren't bias, and should trump feeling. The materialist mindset says that there is no one to blame for one's inability to accept reality but the individual. Nature is neutral. It is what it is.
Simply extend this thinking into spiritual, immaterial truths. If it's wrong to be angry at the universe for the universal constant c, then it's wrong to be angry that actions have final causality (purpose), and living life in a right way means trying to match final causality.
>>55426721
Alright you convinced me im in. But is it alright if I choose to call god, Adolf? The word "god" just doesn't sound right when I say it
>>55426656
he doesn't give a shit if the anon is disappointed that he doesn't fight him.
>>55426683
tits or gtfo
>>55426638
god can't be selfish God isn't a man
>>55426836
God sounds like a corporation
>>55426827
You don't even need to call Him anything. He is simply "I am who I am".
>>55426921
So you claim to be god?
>>55426949
No. What? I'm quoting God. He said, when asked his name, "I am who I am". "Tell them I AM has sent you".
>>55426885
God isn't a person
>>55427007
Ehh i'm out again, it's all too confusing
Hail Satan 666 Fuck Steal Murder
>>55426827
And if you really want to warp your brain, the next step is trying to wrap your head around how and whether or not you buy the idea that Jesus was "I AM" incarnate--the Logos in the flesh.
>>55426461
People like this are going to spend a long time in Sheol... It's not that God don't want him its that he don't want God. The gates of hell are locked from the inside and with an attitude like this hell may very well be eternal.
ITT: the same people who toil over 'liberal mental gymnastics' somehow reconcile having both free will and god being omnipotent.
>>55427082
The throes of narcissism can make you feel the highest of highs
Jesus had great publicists and investors
>>55427142
I want god.
In a steel fucking cage, we can make love after the fight if he wants, but I just want to give him a great big knuckle sandwich naw mean?
>>55427184
>Jesus had great publicists and investors
Is that why he was executed in front of a crowd of people who cheered for his painful demise? good PR?
>>55427154
so you're saying you accept God is omnipotent, but don't accept that (this same God you just accepted is omnipotent) can't create a system that allows for free will?
interdesting
>>55427245
/b/ is down the hall
>>55415459
>hes not mentioned in the parts of the bible i cherry picked for the sake of argument
>>55427251
It's like how most artists are only famous after their death.
Bible salesman, buddy.
>>55427245
Would a masochist find eternity in divine fire pleasurable?
>>55426675
angels used to have free will. after lucifer's rebellion, god took it away from them.
>>55427184
>The throes of narcissism can make you feel the highest of highs
Sounds like you'd know a thing or two about that
>>55427363
Yes its the most exciting way to live
>>55427405
I do, I already told you I am infinitely superior to your god
>>55427407
>>55427445
If you're an actual pagan and no just a edge teenage internet weenie, than I respect you. Truly embracing oblivion is the only honest path of a pagan. However, you can't truly live a life of pagan morality because you do not live in a society that ramifies the material values of paganism, group loyalty, swift justice, and strength above all else.
That's why most modern pagans, new age or otherwise, are usually immature barbarians with no higher values that transcend life. They're hedonists, and irresponsible children.
If you're living to be something more than this, I commend you, and you may even ironically be closer to Christ than you realize.
>>55427253
P1: If God is omnipotent, this means he is all powerful.
P2: By being omnipotent, this includes omniscience (knows all).
P3: Omniscience includes knowing the future.
P4: If the future is known, it is predetermined.
P5: If the future is predetermined,then only one course of action can take place.
P6: If a human has free will, they can choose a course of action themselves.
P7: P5 and P6 are mutually exclusive
P8: By P7, either the future is predetermined, or humans have free will.
C: Either God is omnipotent, or humans have free will, but not both.
>>55414788
>taking religion literally
Why cant people into metaphores anymore?
>>55427588
God is timeless but people are not. Of course there are paradoxes, but that's because humans don't exist in the same scale is God. God is infinite, humans can't even wrap their heads around the concept of infinite.
God gives us existence, and free will, but he doesn't interfere. Of course he knows what we will do, but if he interceded we wouldn't have free will.
If I put a rat in a box with cheese at the end, I know he's going to go eat the cheese. Doesn't mean he doesn't take the action to go get the cheese.
>>55427571
I honesty don't believe much and am a very cynical person based on past and current relationships with people
God can't be almighty since my free will overrides his power. This goes against everything he stands for. The very fact that I have free will means that God has no power over them. This fills me with determination.
>>55427627
autism, and people are lazy so they expect everything to be neat and spoon fed
>>55427791
>my free will overrides his power.
oh yeah you willed yourself into existence right?
>>55414788
>Impregnates prostitute, the baby is himself?
Wait, what? Mary was a virgin, you dumb fuck.
>>55414788
>God Creates sin
stopped reading here
>>55427788
Sorry to hear that. People can suck.
>>55427987
No need for an apology don't patronize me like that.
>>55428069
I don't find enjoyment in hearing people having shitty experiences. It obviously did a number on you, and caused you to develope hardened mental defenses. I pity you if forces beyond your control cause you to be closed to certain experoences, but ultimately you have to ability to break free from that. Nihilism is a hard life, and even harder death.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
>>55428221
I took philosophy once too
>>55428249
>>55427787
>If I put a rat in a box with cheese at the end, I know he's going to go eat the cheese. Doesn't mean he doesn't take the action to go get the cheese.
I would challenge the use of 'knowing' here. Your prediction is based on past experience, and inference. We know animals will go for food when possible from our own experience.
This is different to knowing with certainty future states. The fact is, you don't know for sure what the mouse will do. If you knew for certain the mouse will go for the cheese, the mouse does not have a choice. The future is fixed.
In essence, logic dictates that determinism and free will are not possible. The next stage in the argument, which is what I think you are alluding to, is that God is beyond the natural realm and hence logic does not have to apply to him.
I can't argue against that, as it is an appeal to the supernatural and is basically a cop out.
>God creates angel named lucifer
>God knew all his future actions
>God creates Adam
>God knows Adam will be tempted by Eve
>God creates eve
>God knows adam and eve will eat the forbidden fruit
>God places forbidden fruit tree in garden
>>55428598
>>55428598
>God places forbidden fruit tree in garden
It was his way of testing us because he gave us free will!
>>55419482
Nah the reason europe was so ahead was because it had a fuck ton of kingdoms fighting among themselves, war always brings inovation, its just like islands are better for evolution then a single continent
Even if ultimately God knows where you're ending, it's irrelevant for you, you can still repent and change until your death.
>>55414788
Just because Christianity makes no sense doesn't mean God doesn't exist.
>>55428685
Is it free will if the path is certain?
>>55416468
>god is all-knowning
>he should be able to know billions of outcomes
>free will doesnt make sense
>>55427399
>One son does something bad, punish all sons
Is your god a single mother?
>>55414788
Yes, all you say is absolutely correct (except the words prostitute, pointless and the last sentence).
But it is just your faggotic and ignorant mind that have a problem with this. Life is evolving, you plainly can't evolve without evilness.
>>55423267
>secret
>naked
>passion
I'll take it
>>55429649
I want to believe in Christianity, in the end its christians who push me away
Only you can choose your own destiny.
Life is basically a compilation of choices for you to make.
You can either choose the right choices or the wrong ones.
God already knows what choices you are going to make.
DIBS VADORA
seriously? not a single jurrasic park meme?
>>55430266
I think the main reason humans are trash it's because they do what they don't feel.
You know the situation when you tell yourself "I knew it but I didnt do it", that's fuckin cancer tier
Dont follow Jesus if you don't feel him, kill a human even if this is the thing you feel deep in your heart. If you follow your true feeling / instinct, you'll follow a glorious destiny.
>>55430731
But wont I end up in hell for that?
>>55414788
That is why Christianity and Islam is a joke, Judaism does not teach this, Old Testament isn't this shit. But alas, trying to teach goyim anything is like missing ones foreskin, a waste of time.
>>55430791
i cant answer this i am not god, i just know the best way for me to live is by my will
>>55431235
What do you mean, "by my will."
Why did god interact with the world thousands of years ago when recorded proof was impossible instead of right now in modern times?
Why do christfags think free will means anything when god can not only see everything you'll do in the future anyway but can also blatantly bend free will?
>>55414788
Yeah the whole idea is retarded. It's like programming an AI to do something you don't want then punishing it when it does something you don't want.
>>55416166
youre some sort of strange idiot.
>>55432093
I personally come from a long line of idiots. My father, like his father was an idiot, and we hold fast to the truth of the idiot history that we hand down through the generations. With God as my witness, I will honor the jew scrolls, not for my sake, but for the Law's sake.
Also, my religion is the true religion. All other religion's and oblivious atheism are silly religions, but they too have their lots. Let's see who's right on the day of my judgement.
>>55424987
But God KNEW man would introduce sin?
If it's not part of his creation why doesn't he fix it?
Why doesn't he click his fingers and make satan disappear?
Why to show us love? Why would he want glory? Surely an omnipotent God doesn't have frivolous characteristics such as emotions?
>>55429072
That's not Christianity, paradoxes arrive from even the possibility of a God
>>55428394
I would challenge your assumption that you can understand Godly consciousness.
Again God and man exist on different time scales. Time is not existent to God. Your logic is futile.
>>55414788
>Trying to make sense out of a 3000 years old folklore of goat shepherd people
Shit nigga what are you doing
>>55423267
Rage Maniac
Well...
>>55415459
Believing without evidence is the name of the game and famously, specifically mentioned in the bible in Hebrews chapter 11 verse 1
He knows before he makes you whether or not you'll go to hell...
Which is also mentioned just not by name: www.biblestudytools.com/topical/hell-bible-verses/
>>55414788
> be omnipotent being
> literally do anything u want
> be omniscient being
> IQ score of "infinity"
> create race of complete idiots compared to urself
> only other thinking minds in existence
> whole world of interesting humans to choose from
> vedic mathematicians or chinese engineers
> develop obsession with Jewish shepherds in some desert in Nowherestan
> entrust bronze age jews with vital rules for all humans
> mate with one of these primitive's women
> in order to send 2nd message for humanity
> "never mind the first message"
U wot m8?
>>55424165
sounds pretty good to me
I have unlimited knowledge and power...better have my son-self tortured and killed so i can forgive everyone for what i set into motion and knew exactly that they would do.
Or god is like a dog and he's addicted to praise but never says thanks or anything else.
>>55417251
>What's up with that?
Pharaoh was a nigger.
>>55414788
Try to imagine for a moment you know everything that is, was, or ever will be. You are all knowing and all powerful, so what the fuck are you suppose to do?
He creates life, similar to himself, and allows it to live out an existence with its own free will, probably for his own satisfaction. After a person dies, those who choose not to denounce his very existence live on in eternity.
If he is all powerful, he has the ability to choose NOT to see the future.
Assuming people are made in his image(which is blatantly stated in the bible), I imagine god enjoys seeing his creations interact in a world he created. He probably enjoys seeing people succeed and feels sad when people fail just as we do, albeit on a much grander scale.
Also, I am 100% sure god didn't create hell. Don't quote me on this, but I believe satan created hell and claims the souls discarded by god that choose to denounce him. Satan created hell of his own free will, and god simply allowed it. If I had to yet again guess intentions, he probably allowed it because he didn't enjoy the thought of a being created in his image simply vanishing entirely. However, hell isn't a place of torture, but I don't think its a very nice place considering it is created by an inferior being.
>>55428221
> Its malevolent to allow people free will.
> I like posting things that sound poetic so I can seem smart to all my internet friends. Too bad I'm painfully retarded and have no idea what I'm talking about. I am also an enormous faggot and think maroon 5 is the greatest band of all time.
>>55435224
>Its not malevolent to allow people free will that includes freedom to do evil for people and freedom for evil supernatural entities to do evil to people
>god is so omnipotent that he couldn't exclude evil while leaving free will to choose between doing various goods
>but he seems alright to spit on free will to specifically do evil >>55417251
>god is so omniscient that he doesn't know what people will do beforehand
>but when anyone dies in a car crash "that's all in the god plan, you just don't understand how it's a good thing"
>I like blaming people of sounding poetic, while completely sidestepping the issue they presented by making it about "ur against free will and free will is GOOD, I SAID !11"
>>55434381
Laughed at this post.
>This is the first mention of fedora in this thread, incredible.
>>55428685
At leasst then nigger could have put the tree on top of fucking mount everest, surrounded by barbed wire.
And even fucking then, you know that humans will spread across the world and at some inevitable point, some dick will find the tree and eat from it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArTPpXSnSRo
>>55424987
God also created Satan, existing out of time, knew that Satan would become the embodiment of evil and God created people knowing they would become Satan's followers. Your logic is incredibly flawed.
>>55434381
The Sims, Universe Edition
And the best of all:
>God created us all with the constant need to drink water
>Made 99% of the world water salty that will kill us if we drink
>>55437258
people created Satan
your logic is shit fuckboy
if science created the universe why are people like you allowed to be so retarded?
>>55437810
So when you run out of crazy religo brain washing babble, you go straight to flinging verbal shit at me. Maybe you're right about evolution not being real because you're still an unevolved ape tossing shit at others to make a point. Fuck off.
>>55437588
*tips fedora*
The Bible is real not any of this nonsense.
>>55420723
Don't cut yourself with that edge, son.
>>55438481
It's not edgy when it's true. It makes more sense than the magic jew on a stick.
>>55435016
>hell isn't a place of torture
This. The whole hell being eternal pain and torment was invented by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages so they could intimidate uneducated peasants into paying taxes.
Hell is more like a place where there is no God, so if you are an atheist or hate God, you should feel right at home there.
>>55439678
Seems like a lot of gods followers are liars
>>55437318
Satan created salt water
>>55414788
>I think God is silly
>Thus God doesn't exist!
Daily reminder that the only reason Jesus had to show up at all was because God fucked up
>>55415925
>God is not Jesus. Again the Catholic church makes somthing up
The catholic church made all of it up you nerd
>>55423267
>BAIL
>EAT
>DREAM
huh?
>>55439809
faith =/= religion
christianity went to shit with Nicea 325 desu
>>55414788
I wish I could save Christ weebs from their suffering.
How exactly can we go about educating a group of people that are willfully ignorant, because they are literally terrified of "eternal damnation"?
It's like trying to take crack from a lifelong crackhead. You just can't do it without destroying them.
Is that what it's going to take, Christ weebs? Do we need to literally gas every one of you in order to save the species?
>>55423267
Naked scum suicide, thanks for picking my new band name!
>>55423267
>first three words
>in order of finding
>malice
>curse
>art
what does it mean, anon
what does it mean
>>55439678
But doesn't it say in revelations God will throw satan and his followers into a lake of fire to burn forever?
>>55440212
>implying revelations isn't an anti-Roman pamphlet and religious fanfiction written by some deranged jew in a cave
>>55414788
I know its almost futile posting such a theological hypothesis in a bait thread, but has anyone who is Christian ever thought of this?:
Perhaps religions are an analogy, which would reconcile their similarities in creed but at the same time differences based in cultural roots.
Perhaps God as we know "him" is actually an ethereal entity that created his creation based upon fundamental physical laws that "he" knew would eventually progress into evolution and intelligent life in order to experience it through different "lenses", or humans/animals?
Perhaps this being has a vested interest in experiencing his own handiwork? A vested interest in witnessing the chronicling of human (the apex of his evolutionary creation on earth) history? Perhaps as it draws closer to intelligence, it sees more of itself, but in being bound to a human psyche (us, as "we" think), tries to create a story that can reconcile its pull towards itself in its true form?
In example, the Holy Trinity could be viewed as God the Father (ethereal entity), God the Son (humans, with little understanding of their origin), and the Holy Spirit (the binding of human-god dichotomy, representing the subtle influence of a creator)?
Thoughts? Heresy? Theological relic that I've rediscovered?
Has anyone had this idea?
>>55414788
>600 years ago
>religious people arguing that the earth is the centre of the universe
>proven wrong by scientists
>150 years ago - religious people arguing against evolution
>Now no one with half a brain thinks the earth is 6000 years old
>Today - God people relying on some "first cause" that must be God
So what will all the God people say when the actual origins of the universe will be uncovered ?!
>>55414788
Why couldn't God just not create anything?
Creating the universe has just caused one big fucking mess.
He would have been better off creating a Mrs God for himself.
>>55440056
The weak minded cling to these ideas because they're not smart enough to figure out the message "don't be a dick" on their own.
They prefer a prebaked set of morals that leads to an end-goal because simply being a nice individual without reward isn't good enough for them.
Religion will always exist because it appeals to feelings and is a shortcut to not having to think about life for themselves. Without it, these individuals will just follow whatever other trend there is to justify the proper ways to act.
The explanation behind our creation is simply icing on the cake in religion, so that people don't let their curiosities distract them from their daily menial labors.
>>55440362
They'll continue with their terrified rhetoric that Satan put all that scientific evidence there to test their faith.
Then the crazier among them will begin purging non-believers, the same way ISIS niggers kill anyone not like them.
Religion is literally a cultural cancer among our species. It manifests as something tiny, harmless, obscure. Then it festers, spreads, infects and destroys the surrounding area, until the host succumbs to organ failure.
>>55440305
>Implying the entire bible wasn't written by a crazy jew
You actually think you have it right? kek
>>55416912
Not in the old testament, I'll tell you that much
He is cold blooded as fuck
>>55440450
>Why not just not create anything?
How could we know the motivations of a God?
>>55440471
White I agree with the merit of the basic idea of this, I think that religious authoritative structure was something that evolved out of a much more simplistic notion... over time, to do just like you say.
Does humanity have a mommy?
>>55440481
>That's very well said
I might quote you some day anon
>>55440343
>Yes I had that thought a long time ago
The far more plausible explanation is that God is man-made though
>>55440688
Just make sure to leave out the nigger part.
That wouldn't sound very progressive to your more liberal compatriots, would it.
>>55423267
>Suicide
>Hate
>Men
....b-but I don't want to be a feminist...
>>55440733
Thank you for the validation! I thought what I said sounded a bit more logical, in terms of theological study, than what fundamentalists have to offer. Fundamentalism, in my opinion, is just silly, clinging to ideas that can long since be proved unsound.
Since you had arrived at this conclusion some time ago, I would like to know what brought you to believe God was a man-made idea, though?
I'm stuck where I am currently.
>>55440879
>what makes you believe God is man made
Uh...could it POSSIBLY BE THE COMPLETE AND TOTAL ABSENCE OF ANY FIRST HAND DIVINE EXPERIENCES?
I mean, really anon. I don't hate you for being a spiritual person. I know you want to find good inside of yourself, but have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, some actual divine confirmation might be in order before you devote yourself to toiling an entire lifetime to fathoming the unfathomable?
>>55440343
Or maybe god is someone on the other side of the fourth wall.
A guy who made a simulation. Or an author.
Omnipresent, omnipotent, in full control and with full knowledge, but yet unable to fully grasp the entire universe at once.
How many authors have started stories, only to have them veer into unexpected directions? Didn't GRR Martin say something about his characters taking over his story?
>>55440974
What if all believers experienced god and all non-believers didn't experience god or mis-interpreted the experience?
What if most christians are deluded and most atheists as well, with god only interacting with people that could be considered main characters? What if those "main characters" started religion and everyone else is just hanger-ons who can't relate to what those people experienced but follow anyway because charisma, dogma and the system's usefulness for enforcing moral rules?
Spooky
>>55440974
Actually, since you mention that, it has been my experience with the compound lyergic acid that has brought me to this "frame" or "lens" conclusion.
To put it in terms I can't prove, I get the overwhelming feeling of singularity, that division is a mere illusion.
I find support, if not proof of this, scientifically. There is but one universe. Nothing divides said universe from itself. Being of the universe, there are no real boundaries other than what we perceive at our molecular scale to separate anything from us.
The feeling I get is that we are all but receptors, nodes, if you will, for a powerful, omnipresent entity (God, if you will) that has only a vested interest in experience. I get the feeling that the entity is indifferent to your actions, but strongly feels as though all life should be cherished. Since taking the compound, I find it hard to end life meaninglessly, even if it is as simple as squashing an inchworm.
From what I've gathered in my experiences with what is (in my opinion) the closest frame of mine we can share reasonably with this entity, it is simply using us as vessels to experience its own creation.
Motivations other than that and preservation of life, however, are unclear.
>>55440879
>I'm stuck where I am currently.
Well, I'll try.
Compare the two points of view.
Now there is not just monotheism around. In the past, we had Gods for each and every occupation or type of people and so on.
Then someone came up with the idea that we need a complete solution for our entire life with on God and clear rules.
He called the ones believing in their old Gods heathens, without morals and so on.
Now you have to understand that morals change as people and technologies change.
There's Islam now. It claims to be the last and final religion, solution to all your problems.
How can it be, however, if our moral viewpoints change all the time ?
1200 years ago it was perfectly normal and good for the survival of the tribe to have more than on wife. Now modern technology reduced the risk to die in childbirth for women - so we say: one wife = enough
Maybe you can see now - morals change all the time and so (necessarily) does religion
Come to that point - and you'll have to ask yourself why believe in a God at all ?
>Men made their own different Gods througout history - Gods highly compatible with their viewpoints and morals
>Yahweh creates man
>Yahweh creates woman from man
>Yahweh intentionally creates woman to be inferior to man
Why is Yahweh so cruel?
>>55426638
Holy shit your edgy, taking on god, huh?
>>55441211
If we, and by we I mean virtually every single person being left out of this religious fantasy, aren't going to play any role in the development of the story, then we shouldn't be part of it at all.
I've had unexplainable paranormal experiences. Nothing within them left me with any suggestion that I should place a religious theme upon them.
Trust me, I'm not one of the ultra dense hardcore self righteous "critical thinker" debunkers. I'm an open minded person, willing to give credit where it's due.
If "God" exists, he left us here completely alone to fend for ourselves. That's hardly worthy of worship.
Also, as far as biblical literature, or otherwise, is concerned, consider the source. Ancient sand people, uneducated, un-worldly, living in barbaric stone age times.
We might as well be worshiping a God out of The Elder Scrolls, in a universe that has far, far more depth and lore to it, by comparison.
>>55441295
While rationally this all makes sense, this would have to then apply to be compatible with men of "belief" or what I will name the intrinsic feeling of connection to life as a whole (God).
So, to an extent, yes, religion makes an extremely efficient and effective lawmaker (to God-fearing men). Still, without the "God-fearing" aspect, it wouldn't have worked.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel you are stating that we have outgrown the need for a God as a solution for lawlessness?
>>55441416
>If we, and by we I mean virtually every single person being left out of this religious fantasy, aren't going to play any role in the development of the story, then we shouldn't be part of it at all.
>Also, as far as biblical literature, or otherwise, is concerned, consider the source. Ancient sand people, uneducated, un-worldly, living in barbaric stone age times.
Combine these two aspects.
Religion was used to enforce rules, for which we now have rule of law.
However, rule of law makes no moral statements, so retaining some kind of religion makes sense.
>We might as well be worshiping a God out of The Elder Scrolls, in a universe that has far, far more depth and lore to it, by comparison.
I would rather we just throw Bethesda into a sun.
>If "God" exists, he left us here completely alone to fend for ourselves. That's hardly worthy of worship.
To be fair, if god created the universe for just ten or so people that are the center point of the story, who's to tell him to fuck off?
At least he didn't make this a depressing setting where people can get their soul eaten and be forced to suffer for literally eternity or something like that.
That would be a fucking dick move converning world building.
>>55441477
You are not wrong
>>55425605
I'm with this opinion in that particular case
>>55415925
This is correct
>>55441540
If God created a story for a select group of people to have any role in, then I feel pretty free to tell everyone else to fuck off, and let me enjoy the remainder of my pseudo existence.
We're all tiny fragments of God anyways, according to the religious.
This little fragment just wants to bang Asian pussy, eat pizza, and get fucking Fallout 4 to work on his shit computer.
The big guy would understand. Surely I don't deserve Hell for this desire to live a simple, peaceful life....killing irradiated mutants.
>>55441540
>>55441540
>However, rule of law makes no moral statements, so retaining some kind of religion makes sense
I've described earlier how morals change all the time and so does religion
What the last pope called "moral relativism" is a part of human nature
And therefore it makes no sense at all to retain some kind of religion for that reason
>>55441552
I see the validity in this.
I cannot, however, reconcile my personal experience (which can be categorized really as a profound "gut feeling" under the influence of Lysergic Acid), with this.
I believe that God is more than just a fairy tale myth, but less than a divine interventionist. He may be merely an observer.
Perhaps he takes delight in our victories, through our eyes? Perhaps he feels the same sorrow as we do when ill-fate befalls us or those we care for?
And perhaps, being so vested in his creation, he refuses to lift a finger to alter any of it?
For anyone. There are no "God's chosen people": just people, and God observes, through us. Not because he is heartless does he only observe, not because he has given up on us, but because he does not wish to alter the ultimate outcome or experiences of any of his presumably autonomous receptor nodes for experience in third dimensional life?
>>55441674
>and get fucking Fallout 4 to work on his shit computer.
Be glad your computer is shit.
The game speeds up and desyncs the physics engine if your computer is too good.
But eh, who am I telling that? As a Bethesda fan you are likely quite aware of how much of a fuckup that company is in terms of software engineering.
Remember Skyrim on PS3?
>>55441814
You're rationalizing too hard for an entity that has not and cannot be proven to exist.
It's like you've created a tulpa, and given it power over your personal life, going and praying to it, donating money to it's cause, and trying to persuade others to believe in your tulpa.
>>55441814
>I cannot, however, reconcile my personal experience (which can be categorized really as a profound "gut feeling" under the influence of Lysergic Acid), with this.
>I believe that God is more than just a fairy tale myth, but less than a divine interventionist. He may be merely an observer.
All of this is spirituality and although I'm not spiritual myself I'm the last person on earth to condemn it.
I just always ask myself why people always have to bring in an omnipotent being, a whole set of rules, an ideology and an agenda into spirituality ?
And another one - why are almost all religions so obsessed with the Apocalypse ?!
>>55441859
Yeah, Bethesda is shit. I'm waiting a few months for the modding community to fix the game for Bethesda, as is usual.
>>55442021
Why can't they at least go the Egosoft way and official endorse mods and add them into their patches?
At least Egosoft has the balls to be open with the fact that their games are always released unfinished. And they always get long-term support. Patches upon patches with new features for years.
>>55414788
The kind of people who genuinely believe that there is an ethereal being of astronomical heft constantly breathing down their necks are usually the kind of people who should in the first place.
I'm pretty open about my worldview, and anyone willing to have that talk with me usually comes out of it with a different perspective than what they had before.
Here's what gets me. Time and time again, I've expressed my views concerning the existence of deities such as those believed in by the people I have interacted with. Their reaction is usually one of fear or discomfort about its implications.
>If God doesn't exist and thus rules and morality is rendered useless by virtue of being arbitrary standards of behavior, then why don't we all just live by the cardinal rule of "survival of the fittest" and murder, rape, and steal because there are no consequences?
To which I respond, usually in more politically correct terminology:
>If a deity is what keeps you from turning into an African-tier nigger, then by all means, I'll join you in prayer.
>>55441888
I'm rationalizing this hard because I believe him to exist, else I wouldn't waste time trying to figure it out. It may be a pointless endeavor, but just to speak to like minded people and perhaps bounce some ideas, worth it, no?
In other words, I feel "him" call to me, from wherever. "He" has changed my mind on issues like life and death. For example, I firmly believe that meaningless bloodshed is an atrocity, on any front: whereas I would have been for purging a plague before, now I seek to rehabilitate the affected.
>>55441978
I respect that. The world needs more people open minded such as you. To not be spiritual but not condemn it at the same time is adherent to a rational viewpoint, given the statistical analysis of people who are believers in some sort of God or another.
Your next point is precisely the one I address! I believe that God has no "agenda" other than to observe! Set things in motion at the creation of the universe with a set of variables that will inevitably evolve into intelligent life somewhere, then watch the story unfold!
Maybe he has a set of morals, but he does not enforce them on us. He wishes us to abide them perhaps? For the good of mankind?
But you're right, many religions take advantage of this intrinsic feeling and manipulate them into creeds and doctrine for control and power.
As for why religions deal with the apocalypse, I can only surmise that since they deal with origins, they must also deal with endings as well.
>>55442405
>If God doesn't exist and thus rules and morality is rendered useless by virtue of being arbitrary standards of behavior, then why don't we all just live by the cardinal rule of "survival of the fittest" and murder, rape, and steal because there are no consequences?
To which I respond, usually in more politically correct terminology:
>If a deity is what keeps you from turning into an African-tier nigger, then by all means, I'll join you in prayer.
But that's way too simple. Look at ISIS, they're all doing that stuff BECAUSE of their God or at least they pretend so.
What makes people think anyone would reqiure divine permission to know right from wrong ?
>>55442628
>But that's way too simple. Look at ISIS, they're all doing that stuff BECAUSE of their God or at least they pretend so.
That's what they're supposed to notice.
I'll often follow that up by changing subject to the mysterious Illuminati, where I mention this and let the implications speak for themselves.
>They tell you that there is a sinister organization which is working behind the scenes to ensure mankind voluntarily locks themselves in the shackles of spiritual bondage and establish a One World Religion and subsequent New World Order.
>Then they tell you that the *only way* not to fall victim to this organization's clever tricks is to repent for your sins and acknowledge your lord and savior Jesus Christ (or whatever else they're evangelizing).
