Engine Building General?
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I want to build a Chevrolet Small Block or GM Small Block, I think. I really just want to build an engine that revs high, is a V8, and can last lots of miles of hard loads. SBCs are everywhere, so this is just a starting point, not a final decision.
After doing some reading on the 1969 Z/28 Trans Am car, I have a huge want for an 8,000 RPM or higher V8 engine. I plan on putting it into something special.
I'm getting a new job this week that will finally allow me to have some money to play with. I want to overbuild this engine, because i want it to last. 400 HP and above is my goal. Lubrication and cooling are absolutely going to be oversized/spec'd.
A Chevrolet 302 is a 4 inch bore with a 3 inch crank, correct? I would like to get a 350 block with four bolt mains and in either iron/cast iron for duability. (Or whatever meets the best price to durability ratio.)
If I wanted to replicate a 302 with GM engines instead, would I have to get a custom crank? The Gen 3 LQ4 and LQ9 engines have 4 inch bores, so do the Gen 4 L76, LFA, and LZ1. Neither of these engines 3 inch cranks unfortunately, so I would have to get one custom?
I would prefer a manual trans that is native to these engines, but I'm open to anything strong enough to support the power.
I would like to keep cost down in any way I can that doesn't skimp on reliability and durability.
What are my options? I don't have to stick to SBCs, I'm open to other ideas. What about the Ford 289?
isn't it hard to get a SBC to rev high because of muh pushrods??
>>15006153
Sounds to me like you need a 1UZ in your life.
>>15006153
Going for power through revs is expensive though.
A professional engine builder posted up on the FE forum about a 289 he built for use in FIA Cobra (which means period-correct factory castings). The engine did 443hp at 7000 rpm and 390lb-ft of torque. He didn't say what the total build cost was but did mention that the solid lifters were made of tool steel and cost $600 a set. That's just one item of many that have to be better than common oem stuff to live at high rpm repeatedly.
>>15006200
>A professional engine builder posted up on the FE forum about a 289 he built for use in FIA Cobra (which means period-correct factory castings). The engine did 443hp at 7000 rpm and 390lb-ft of torque.
Unless, you have a 1UZ.
>>15006185
Yes and no, High for me is 7 grand plus and 8 grand RPM is completely attainable with pushrods The SBC 302 and Ford 5.0s have done that, iirc. Going beyond that costs serious cash. It's going past 8 grand that gets hard for pushrod engines because of the way pushrods work. DOHC is definitely an option for me. Pushrods are just simple and cheap! I would prefer to go DOHC if I can keep it light-ish. The 1UZ is light, iirc, but using the 3UZ block with 1 UZ heads would be a weight penalty I would be willing to take due to the added lasting strength of cast iron, and it's cheaper than aluminium.
>>15006190
I was thinking that too. I really like the UZ, and I'm a fan of the UR. How do you feel about URs? The one in the Tundra I used at my old job was the tits and super reliable.
>>15006200
I kind of figured things were going to get expensive fast. This is going to be a long term project. As my resources grow, my completion time will shorten, thank god.
>>15006153
If you are going to rev that high reliably you will want a few things. Firstly go an aftermarket block, they are stronger in critical areas, and have a much better finish than stock castings. You will want some serious machine work. You will need a crank girdle, and a valve stud girdle. The lighter the valves the better, as you will be running some very high spring pressures to close those suckers in time. It would also need a solid roller cam. That means valve lash adjustments regularly.
There is a lot to it if you want to make it last. In saying that old school racers turned their shit to 8000rpm with none of that.
Keep the revs under 5000 and go for a SB Mopar
>>15006153
>If I wanted to replicate a 302 with GM engines instead, would I have to get a custom crank? The Gen 3 LQ4 and LQ9 engines have 4 inch bores, so do the Gen 4 L76, LFA, and LZ1. Neither of these engines 3 inch cranks unfortunately, so I would have to get one custom?
gen 3 and gen 4 small blocks, yes you would need a custom crank. Those run about $3-4k on average.
To build a modern 302, and believe my, I've thought about it, what you want is a generation 1 350 block from 1986-1999. Don't touch the Gen 2 blocks unless you want to deal with the unreliable opti-spark ignition system.
I say 1986+ for the block because in 1986, the Chevy small block was modified for a 1 piece rear main seal that's less prone to leaking. The 350 block gives you the 4 inch bore you need to make a 302.
So now the 3" stroke crankshaft. That would normally be a bitch to find, but the bottom end of the gen 2 small blocks is interchangeable with the 1986+ gen 1 small blocks. From 1994-1996, The Caprice was available with a 4.3L gen 2 LT V8 known as the L99... which had the 3" stroke you need.
http://www.cleggengine.com/94-96-chevrolet-265-4-3l-v8-crankshaft-kit.html
Shove that in your 86+ 350 block and you will have a 302. Throw on some vortec heads and a modern, non-tpi fuel injection system and you're golden.
If You HAVE to use a gen 3 or gen 4 LS engine though, and you don't wanna drop 3-4k on a custom crank, the best bet is to get a 6.0L block for that 4 inch bore, and drop in the 4.8L crankshaft. That would give you a 5.4L with 328 cubic inches, which is close enough to the hot 327 Chevy made in the late 60's.
>>15006239
Never drove or worked on a UR, though I do hear they are tits. My mom had an older lexus though with a UZ and while it didn't blow doors off like a BBC in something like that lexus, it was reliable as hell and smooooooth, really pulled all the way through the power band too.
Vh45de is a little over 500lbs, factory redline is 6900
What are my options outside of pushrod engines? The 302 idea is just one of many to achieve my end goal. I like where the 1UZ guy was going too. This engine will be going in a two door, 2 seat sports car. Depending on who manufactures what, depends on the exact car for swap simplicity.
>>15006279
Understood. That'll be pretty beastly in cost, but makes complete sense.
>>15006289
Eh, but then I could just go for a stroker if I wanted to keep things low.
>>15006322
Thank you, Based Anon. I put up the idea of more modern engines for the sake that newer technological advances tend to last longer over time compared to their predecessors. That 328 is very close to the hot 327, which was pretty cool.
>>15006330
That's exactly why I like them! Just like the UZ, super smooth, extremely reliable, and cheap to maintain.
>>15006340
How much work would I have to put into the VH to get it to rev higher? I heard those VH/VK engines from Nissan are quite underrated, but I'd only really put one into an old Z or something. Like a Z31 2 seater with better suspension would be well suited to a VH/VK.
>>15006375
>I put up the idea of more modern engines for the sake that newer technological advances tend to last longer over time compared to their predecessors.
I figured. This is why I said the 1986+ gen 1 small blocks. 1955-1985 Small block V8s had a 2 piece rear main seal prone to leaking. By using the 1986+ gen 1 350 block, you get the most reliable combo of the first 2 generations while avoiding the most unreliable part (the gen 2's opti-spark ignition system).
The great thing about the LS engines is the 1 piece seals, but 86+ small blocks had that too. an 86+ small block is going to be just as reliable as an LS engine, just not capable of AS MUCH power. They're still very capable.
tfw i finally heff 440
>>15006953
Noice
>tfw my van only has a 360
If I'm gonna have single digit mpg why not just put a big block in? Fucking Dodge
>>15006153
Why not a modular ford?
>more reliable
>more power
>more revs
>more fun
>>15006983
Physical size, it's easier to fit a pushrod engine into a car than a DOHC one. Although, if the weight penalty is minimal, I'd definitely go with a Modular.
How high can you spin a modular? Stock and modified. 8,000 RPM plus is the goal.
>>15007039
The dohc 4.6 can hit 10k rpm with a good top end. The stock heads are good for 7500ish. The 03-04 mach 1 has a 7k rpm rev limit on the conservative factory tune.
>>15007111
So 9k would be a good safe goal? Can it be done on the stock block reliably?
>>15007111
>10k rpm with a good top end
Ha, what an understatement
I hope you have 20k to throw at your engine if you intend to listen to this man OP
>>15006153
It really is quite easy, OP.
>Firstly, you want to get yourself a nice billet block with 6-bolt mains.
>Bore and sleeve the block with carbide sleeves for maximum bore size. Have these coated with hexagonal boron nitride for lubrication.
>Get billet heads too, and make sure you buy a nice set of beryllium pushrods, roller rockers and pneumatic valve springs. Port the heads within an inch of their life.
>Beryllium pistons and forged titanium rods are the way to go, with a nice billet crank too. Opt for short rods and large bore rather than the inverse to reach your desired displacement.
>Bolt the rotating assembly in with h-BN bearings. Use ARP bolts for everything.
>Bolt the heads on and use a ductile metal head gasket (copper will do fine). Use head gasket thickness to tune your CR for whatever fuel you're using.
>Top it off with a nice carbon intake manifold (for a lower CG) with individual slide-throttles and variable-length intake runners.
>For headers, you want a set of equal-length 8-into-1 long tubes made from titanium. Wrap these in thermal insulation to lower engine bay temps. Wrap anything in close proximity to the exhaust with gold foil.
>Place a WAT Racing sticker on a clearly-visible part of the engine.
>Enjoy revving to 15,000RPM.
>>15007560
Blessed WAT-eteer.
>>15006153
>high revving american v8
ford 302 familia
![10be-specs-ford-shelby-52l[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/R4v36G2.jpg "10be-specs-ford-shelby-52l[1].jpg")
get a voodoo
>>15007560
>thermal insulation
>exhaust wrap
>>15008489
Less power than an LS7 every where below 7k
>>15008546
Ls7 also has almost 2l of displacement more and is an unreliable turd
>>15008560
Le valve drop meme of 2006
エンジンは一度分解するとかみ合わせが悪いとオシャカになる(壊れて使い物にならない)
>>15008423
sbc-based 302 has the same bore and stroke as ford 302, the only difference is available aftermarket.
>>15008546
>muh torq
get out, mean are discussing engines
>>15008685
yeah, the 302 has a lot more
>>15009121
>yeah, the 302 has a lot more
What do you mean? They Chevy 302 can use all of the 350's aftermarket, which eclipses the Ford 302's aftermarket btw. Just just forged 283 connecting rods.
There are no downsides to a Chevy 302.
Gonna be honest dude, RPMs and most chevy V8s dont mix well.
needs a lot of high end parts
and i own a SBC and LQ9
>>15008590
1.61% of 2006 Ls7 dropped valves.
literally a Meme problem.
>>15009697
see:
>>15006322
The original Chevy 302 Destroker of 67-69 Z28's was known as a cheaply built 8000 RPM screamer.
OP, have you considered the European option of getting an Audi 4.2L V8?
I believe there was a 32 valve version that redlined at 8250 rpm and developed 414 HP stock, and there were plenty of performance options available for it, too.
>>15009466
except for the fact that its a chevy
>which eclipses the Ford 302's aftermarket
lel
>>15010564
>TIMING CHAINS
>I
>M
>I
>N
>G
>
>C
>H
>A
>I
>N
>S
>>15010574
Look at all the adtermarket support for the 350. There's more for it than for Ford's 302.
The fact that it's a chevy is no downside as you seem to imply. There's a reason it was voted the best engine of the 20th century.
>>15006153
probably cheaper to get a used nascar engine m8
you'll be sweeping bits of engine off the street in 3 months either way
>>15010634
You can build a modern chevy 302 for 2-4k. I doubt you can get a used NASCAR engine for that.
>>15010579
who cares when you're swapping the engine?
>>15010652
>2-4k
not with all the trick bits OP wants
>>15010579
>chains
The chain wasnt the problem, it was the tensioners
>>15010671
>TIMING CHAIN GUIDES
would've been seen as spam, most likely
>>15010611
you are pulling shit out your ass, the Ford 302 has a lot of aftermarket
>There's a reason it was voted the best engine of the 20th century.
good meme
you can buy a remanufactured ford 302 for pennies, yet you'll need to make your own chevy 302 yourself, its pretty obvious being able to buy a ford 302 longblock with forged internals and just having to bolt on heads, intake and exhaust mainfold is the cheaper and easier option
>>15010691
>you are pulling shit out your ass, the Ford 302 has a lot of aftermarket
I never said it didn't, just that the Chevy engine has more aftermarket, which is true.
>good meme
Not a meme if it's true. Ford's 302 V8 and the engine family it belongs to are not even mentioned.
http://wardsauto.com/news-analysis/10-best-engines-20th-century
>you can buy a remanufactured ford 302 for pennies, yet you'll need to make your own chevy 302 yourself, its pretty obvious being able to buy a ford 302 longblock with forged internals and just having to bolt on heads, intake and exhaust mainfold is the cheaper and easier option
You can buy a Chevy 302
http://precisionraceengines.com/crate-engines/street-engines/small-block-chevy-sbc/turn-key/chevrolet-302dz-turn-key-crate-engine-street-400-hp
http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/27312/Camaro-302-Z28-EngineV0314DZ-1969/
But it still uses the 2 piece rear main seal and still uses a carburator. You can easily convert it to fuel injection, but changing to the 1 piece rear main seal involves either a new crankshaft and a conversion kit, or a 1986+ block.
But my argument was the Chevy 350 vs the Ford 302, since the Chevy 302 is just a 350 with a smaller crank. The 350 can be built jut as easily and cheaply as a Ford 302. This means you can build a Chevy 302 for the same price as a Ford 302. So why do people modify 350's more than Chevy 302's? Availability. The Chevy 302 was only produced for 3 model years. 1967, 1968, and 1969. The 350 was made from 1967 to... well, they're still making them.
Which brings me to the Ford 302 where it's inverted. Yes, there is a larger 351W variant. but like the Chevy 350, the Ford 302 was used in so much more. Ford 302's are modified more often simply because they're easier to get ahold of. Most people with 351's are generally just 302's with stroker kits since it's harder to find a 351.
>>15010812
>which is true
it isn't though, im having a hard time finding a forged crank for a 302 from a respectable company to begin with
>Not a meme if it's true
>meme magazine
alright i guess, wards has given best engine awards to literal turds in the past
>two options to buy crate chevy 302
>one of them is shady as fuck
also, you can only stroke a 302 up to 347 the 351w is a taller block, which brings us to the next point, a ford 302 is going to be lighter than a des-stroked 350
>>15010891
>it isn't though, im having a hard time finding a forged crank for a 302 from a respectable company to begin with
http://eaglerod.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=40
Eagle makes them for both the 1 piece rear seal or the 2 piece.
>also, you can only stroke a 302 up to 347 the 351w is a taller block, which brings us to the next point, a ford 302 is going to be lighter than a des-stroked 350
Actually, the difference in weight between a 350 and a 302 isn't much. The difference is negligible.
>>15009466
it's physically bigger and a little heavier.
But if you already have a block and a car that fits it then fuck it.
