http://blog.caranddriver.com/its-last-call-for-the-manual-transmission-bmw-m5/
why are manuals being phased out in performance cars for DCT's and other slushboxes? are car makers so divorced from reality that facts go out the window?
I could understand for the typical consumer who doesn't give a fuck about performance or being connected with the car will be more attracted to AT, but why must the enthusiasts be punished?
Manual has been superior in performance so it does not make any sense to me that they would only offer them in DCT and other automatics masquerading as manual in PERFORMANE vehicles .
Sorry for the rant /o/ , but we seriously need to fucking do something about this.
BMW better not phase out manuals for the 228i as I have almost enough to buy it next year without taking out a loan.
Like it or not they aren't selling.
honestly? people are afraid of stalling in traffic and being embarrassed. that's it, most other justifications crop up around that fear.
if there was some way to guarantee you can't still in a manual, like some kind of electric assist motor to get you going from a stop as you engage first gear, people would be much more for it.
it's becoming almost impossible learn to drive stick, not everyone has friends that know how, nobody rents stick shift cars, test driving a car from a dealership is something most avoid etc. etc.
>>14813010
>people are afraid of stalling in traffic and being embarrassed
More like, I hate having to give it more gas than usual to get in motion when stopped at a steep incline. San Francisco makes driving a chore.
It's not that it's objectively difficult, but it's not the fun driving experience you get when driving on relatively flat terrain.
>>14812951
>but why must the enthusiasts be punished?
Because companies care about making money hand over fist, and they know that "car enthusiasts" will still buy their cars. Pretty soon you won't be able to get a manual transmission in any car, so people just won't have a choice.
The amount of time, energy, and money that goes into mating a car with both an automatic and manual transmission probably isn't profitable enough for them, they can streamline their products by reducing complexity.
PLUS a lot of these cars have so many modern accoutrements that really need a computer-controlled transmission to work properly. Electro-mechanically controlled differentials, inertia sensing AWD, etc. all work better if you have everything running through a central ECU or family of ECUs. It's like having everyone in your office working on Windows 10, and then you have one guy working on a typewriter. Sure the stuff might be compatible because it's all in English, but they don't work in unison as well as they would if they were on the same technological level.
I think you'll still see manuals in the North American muscle cars for quite some time, it's more deeply ingrained in that subculture. BMW and Porsche have ALWAYS catered to driving enthusiasts, but the brand has, by and large, become a brand of know-nothing cucks with too much money. They don't give a shit about driving a car, they just want something shiny and fast that will do 0-60 in no time flat. A DCT/manumatic/etc. will shift faster and easier, and let's be honest, most people are lazy fucking shits anymore.
>>14812951
>DCT is a slushbox
Couldn't be further from the meme
>>14813034
2/2
And there's nothing you can do about it. I think companies like Porsche might still choose to offer 1-2 select models with a manual option, well into the future. It'll be something sub-par and boring, an afterthought with a ridiculous pricetag and noticeable shortcomings. Cars aren't the mechanical, visceral machines they once were. A manual transmission used to be a linear connection from driver to machine. Cars are basically just computers with wheels now, and with increasing regulations it wouldn't surprise me if safety nazis sought to outlaw manuals because "computers know best!".
I suggest you buy up something decent, and older, with a 5 speed while you still can.
DCT is better for performance
even modern automatic is better
manual is outdated garbage
>muh auto connection
you are fucking cringe
>>14813092
Don't you like the general interaction of shifting a manual, though? The clutch in, shift, clutch out? The rev-matching? The down-shifting technique? The fact that it's an acquired skill you can constantly perfect?
I always draw the parallel to mountain biking, because I bike. I ride a hardtail on horrible terrain, and people think I'm a caveman because I could be riding some full setup with plush dampers front and back. But I like the feel of a hardtail, and the simplicity of it. Same goes for a manual transmission; it's about
>muh feels
>>14812951
>BMW
>>14813136
you obviously never driven an ///M car
>>14812951
>are car makers so divorced from reality that facts go out the window?
It's fine that you like manuals, but don't pretend you're not the one divorced from reality if you think manual transmissions aren't becoming obsolete.
>>14813172
actually I haven't
>>14813122
nigga
Ive driven manual for 6 years Im just operating a machine there is no special connection
>>14813122
Hello friend, please see: >>14813175
>>14813175
>smoother
>faster
>allows you connection with the vehicle and the road .
>superior economy
>massive performance edge in Motorsports as it allows you to actually choose what fucking gear you want
yeah obsolete, fucking child
>>14813092
>I can't operate a manual so it sucks
>>14813122
I'd rather focus on hitting that sweet spot in braking as hard as possible without going outside the limits of grip to then turn in at the perfect time and by the right amount to hit the perfect apex and carry the most amount of speed possible through the corner.
Plenty of other skills to reply upon when driving fast to get that buzz.
>>14813185
>becoming obsolete
You know there's a shitload of people who spend tons of money on "obsolete" stuff? I sold an antique Singer sewing machine I restored for $1470.
You're all retarded if you think "obsolete" means "unwanted".
>>14813187
>smoother
lol no
>faster
lol no
>allows you connection with the vehicle and the road
praise the machine spirit
>superior economy
lol no
>massive performance edge in Motorsports as it allows you to actually choose what fucking gear you want
lol
You are the textbook example of someone divorced from reality.
>>14813183
>there is no special connection
psycho
>>14813198
>comparing a restored old item to a new modern item
Huh? Restored cars sell for a boatload more than they are worth. You don't see companies making them anymore.
>>14813214
>comparing people to "A TO B" faggots because I don't want to play the manual transmission minigames when I drive
>>14813187
We are talking about double clutch automated manual transmissions of the sort that you find in a lot of performance cars here, not some bog standard torque converter junk. In terms of performance an ordinary manual can't compete. Even in motorsport the automated manual reigns where it is allowed and becomes a dogbox where it isn't, the traditional h-pattern manual barely gets a tickle these days.
>>14813219
They sell because of what they are, too. Look at any Mustang, Camaro, Charger, etc. from it's original iteration. The manuals are so fucking coveted they sell for 25-100% more than their automatic counterparts. People love manual transmissions; faggots dislike them.
A real manly man knows how to drive stick, and he prefers it. A faggot pussy cuck prefers an "automatic". He'd rather let a computer do the work for him, because he's a lazy bitch.
There. I did it. I dumped all the masculine rage you faggots were baiting for. Soak it up niggers, bathe in it.
inb4 a flurry of greentext and memeing faggotry
>>14813251
You are beyond reasoning, friend.
Stay mad.
>>14813244
you do whatever you want, but don't pretend to like cars then
This is a pretty dumb thread. Auto makers sell fewer manuals because fewer people are buying them. That's it.
>>14813264
>y-you're not part of the kool kids klub unless you you like what i l-like
k
>>14813282
glad we agree
>>14813282
As President of the KKK, I can say that none of you faggots are members.
>>14812951
supreme enthusiasts are a dying breed
less people care about stick shift than you think
>>14813034
>>14813050
whos the grill
>>14813010
>nobody rents stick shift cars
Correct me if I'm wrong but in America most of the rental companies don't even have manual transmissions for the very reason of the clutch getting fuck from people trying to learn on em or an inexperienced guy money shifting in them.
>>14813308
>less people care about stick shift than you think
And that number is probably still much higher than you think. I wouldn't be opposed to buying something like an M5 later in my life, but only if it came with a manual transmission. The sole fact that they're removing that option means I will never purchase a new vehicle from BMW. That one decision has cost them at least one customer. I guarantee there are more like it.
BUT people ITT are correct in saying that automakers don't give a shit, because we're the minority. BMW is only interested in making money, the whole "driver's car" is just a memory at this point. It's about 4 cylinder commuter cars and cuckfuck crossover mallcrawlers. That's where the cash is at. Their top-end sports models were never sold in high volume anyways, they were always a specialty market.
>>14813190
I can see the benefits of modern autos and DCTs to performance. You can't beat dem shift times.
Nothing makes a shitbox more fun to drive than a 5 speed. They add a bit of life to weak 100hp engine. Sadly shitboxes are moving up market in price and offering silly luxuries like power windows, A/C and automatic transmissions as standard equipment. I will shed a tear when the last true 5 speed shitbox rolls off the production line.
>>14812998
pretty much /thread
>>14812951
nobody wants a landbarge in manual anymore. M5s are huge
>>14813182
You should, you'll never go back to regular BMWs again
>not enjoying 1 (one) aspect of driving many people dislike means you don't like cars altogether
How much of an insufferable cunt can you actually be?
>>14813330
If I could rent a car with a manual transmission I would, and I'd hoon the goddamn fuck out of it and fry the clutch in a weekend. Goddamn clutch dumps and burnouts at every stoplight.
They know their business, they know people like me exist.
>>14813326
grilled cheese I know from uni
>>14813334
BMW knows more about sales of BMWs than you do. If it was predicted to be more profitable for them to keep the stick shift as an option they would probably be doing it.
>>14813334
>I wouldn't be opposed to buying something like an M5 later in my life, but only if it came with a manual transmission. The sole fact that they're removing that option means I will never purchase a new vehicle from BMW.
You were never going to buy a manual M5 in the first place you delusional fuck.
>>14813347
Are you fucking illiterate? That's exactly what I said you insufferable cunt.
>>14813339
>Jason Statham thrashing a manual 735i
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xewS5I4Eho
>>14813354
Face it buddy, the type of people who buy 120k BMWs don't want a manual in their land barge.
Nobody gives two shits about the used market of enthusiasts and what they want. If you wish to influence BMW's decisions, become more wealthy. They actually do listen to their customers.
>>14813352
>You were never going to buy a manual M5 in the first place you delusional fuck.
>projecting this hard
>>14813360
Sure sweetheart go get that loan today then. Otherwise nobody cares.
And if some model you will never afford off-puts you from the last marque holding out with manuals then you were never meant to own a BMW anyways.
Enjoy fantasy land honey.
>>14813359
Again, you're repeating what I already said. There is no argument here, your opinion is congruent with mine.
I think you might have brain damage.
>>14812951
DCT is literally technologically superior to standard manual transmissions. This is coming from someone who daily drives a manual.
There is no problem, though; if you were really an auto enthusiast you would have given up on pretty much every car manufactured after 2005 anyway.
>>14813364
t. bitter poorfag
>>14813364
>then you were never meant to own a BMW anyways.
>I am the resident authority on BMW
>I am the supreme gentleman
kek you sound like a humongous faggot right now
Why don't you just get a sequential, still get a pedal but can shift as fast as any DCT, problem solved now everyone is happy
>>14813381
Yeah I'll just run down to my local [whatever] dealer and order the sequential option. That they offer. Right?
Nigga we're lucky to a NORMAL automatic transmission anymore, half the time we're being assfucked by some 12" nignog's CVT.
>>14813372
>le wrong generation meme
Open your eyes, you are delusional.
>>14813374
t. M owner
>>14813380
>muh brand no make manual i'll never buy one now
yeah you sure showed them kid
>>14812951
I love manuals, and I own a manual. But... I got to drive the 991-generation (2013 or later) Porsche 911 Carrera S last year... manual in the morning session, PDK in the afternoon.
I could not shift fast enough to keep up with the car! The paddle shifters were instantaneous. They made the drive drive like a real-life video game. I could shift in the corners without upsetting the car's balance.
I like the mechanical feel of the manual in my own car, and I would recommend a manual in any '90s or early 2000s car. But it doesn't suit the 991-generation 911... the car too high-tech and not mechanical enough. The paddle shifted suited the car much better.
>>14813396
t.cuck who drives an automatic BMW
lol no wonder you take this shit so personally you fucking faggot
>>14813417
>implying I'd drive an M with a cuck transmission
Nigga pls. I also wouldn't buy an M5 either because they are giant ass land barges now a days. Get an M3 and shove your opinion up your ass jelly poorfag.
>>14813397
And where the fuck will you be driving a car that hard in 99% of daily driving? Nowhere. Manuals are perfectly adequate for public roads, the only place a car like the 991 truly shines is on a racetrack. You can't use 10% of the car's potential on public roads without losing your fucking license.
This benchracing/dickwaving about technological superiority is irrelevant if the car is being driven normally on public roads.
>>14813426
>You can't use 10% of the car's potential on public roads without losing your fucking license.
I feel sorry for cucked cityfags. Do you ride a 250 too?
>>14813423
>driving a $10,000 car
>makes you rich
>on /o/
lmfao
>>14812951
The very modern ones can probably shift faster than more than 99% of users here, but none of it will matter when electric cars overcomes their current hurdles
>>14813431
I envy you 16 year olds who don't need a driver's license in order to get to work to earn a living, or who don't need a license as an integral part of their job.
I can't afford to drive like a retarded swaggot on public roads like you can, I don't live with mum and dad anymore. If I lose my license I basically lose my job, and end up a pathetic busriding child like you.
>>14813010
>people are afraid of stalling in traffic and being embarrassed
Buy a 3.0L diesel or another high powered petrol car instead of getting a pigfat 3500 lb 1.4L shitbox SUV or Van if you don't want to stall. Fucking soccer moms.
>>14813210
Better economy in gear due to
- lighter weight than dct
- less parasitic loss than slushbox or cvt
cagerfags getting cucked by technology hard
it's not too late to buy a bike and enjoy those primitive mechanical feels again you guys
>>14813393
Yep, just go to a BAC dealership
>>14813445
You don't have an industrial park or developing frontage area around you? There's always places you can let a fast car loose. I'm an old man and having a clean driving record and a license is an important part of my job, but so is driving fast on public streets if need be.
>>14813461
>this bitch with his wet clutch 2 cylinder cock rocket
bet u enjoy when ur bf rides pillion don't u, doesn't even need to hold on just slips his wily in ur bum bum
>>14813463
I do have an industrial parkway area near me, it's where the cops go to have their coffee breaks/dinner breaks/ naps. Probably safer hooning in front of a daycare at 10am.
I'm Canadian, too. Hooning in my country is basically akin to a rape-murder.
:YOU ARE NOW ENTERING CANADA: NO FUN ALLOWED ZONE:
>>14813483
is it just me or do all canadian woman look sickly
>>14813502
It's just you.
Perhaps you're of the homosexual persuasion?
>>14813513
>nose rings
>>14813526
She can suck the chrome off a trailer hitch, I think I can deal with her being a "degenerate".
>>14813344
moar grilled cheese
>>14813536
Her face looks like its been stung by bees.
If you find that attractive, get help my homosexual friend.
>>14813546
:^)
>>14813536
enjoy your chlamydia i guess
>>14813541
why would you need more photographs of her? for what purpose?
>>14813050
not OP but I just got a miata and it is the most fun I have ever had. Stalling traffic happens maybe during the first few days but it quickly teaches you where the clutch grabs and shit happens. people need to get over it, manual is just so involved and even more fun. Fuck track computer performance, I want my car to be fun
>>14813513
>>14813536
>>14813551
>Flaunting your girlfriend on /o/
Who in the hell are you trying to impress
>>14813621
/o/, I need their validation
>>14813631
fat jewish women dont impress anyone anon ://
>>14813445
don't get caught then pussy
>>14813434
lmao nga pls
>>14813799
oh yes they do
>>14813451
Spotted the europoor that has to deal with anything and everything nice being taxed.
I don't even need to ask how you feel about that as your post already told me: butt hurt.
>>14813187
>smoother
depends on driver, autos and DCTs do not
>faster
depends on driver, autos and DCTs do not.
>allows you connection with the vehicle and the road
Incorrect, that has more to do with the entire car and how it sits/moves than a phallic object beside your legs.
>superior economy
That isn't a CVT?
>massive performance blah blah blah pick your own gear
Like DCT and shiftable autos?
The literal only point you have is the last, and it's horribly off.
Massive is an understatement.
Massive means that a BMW M3 from 1990 with a manual that's stock should be able to absolutely slam a BMW M3 from 2005 with an Automatic that's stock.
It doesn't work like that.
>muh feels
are great and all, in fact that's the only reason you need.
You don't need to start lying to yourself, though.
>>14814342
Oh, that's right, in motorsports they don't usually use manuals, they use sequential.
Where you can only jump up one gear or down one gear...
Just like a DCT and shiftable auto, and unlike a traditional manual.
Fuck off.
The new M5/6 does not need a manual transmission. BMW themselves said they sold literally 0 manual M6 F12 and M6 F13's. They will keep the manual for the M2/M3/M4 for a while though which is nice.
>>14812951
Manuals aren't faster than DCT how are they better for "performance"?
Also, manuals don't feel well. Just look at the FRS/BRZ, when sales dropped after the first year what did Toyota do? Turbo? Drop top? Nope! Automatic option.
>>14814382
They didn't sell a single manual? How sad.
>>14813190
>I'd rather do x
>5 years time it's required to have stability control that prevents you from ever having the risk anyway
>10 years time cars will be required to limit your throttle if it deems you're giving it unsafe acceleration
>20 years time cars aren't even allowed to be driven
>Is /o/ so divorced from reality that facts go out the window?
They sell fuck all manual M5s why would they continue making them?
>>14813183
>Im just operating a machine there is no special connection
why are you even here?
>>14816001
He's here for the same reason you are. This isn't /special connection/ board.
>>14816011
>its just a car who gives shit lol???? bazinga facebook
fuck outta here
>>14816013
You sound like the kind of hypersensitive teen who would try to commit suicide over a girl.
>>14816023
>>14815999
I agree. BMW has always been a bourgeois brand, not a brand for car enthusiasts and mechanics lovers.
>>14812951
Long story short, the automatics have become good enough to not suck completely and most people buying one of those cars NEW care more about prestige than driving pleasure. Most of them just choose the automatic option when there is one, so numbers for the manual are so low that huge expanses for develloping the car with two different transmissions just won't pay off.
>>14813031
Dude having to do more and be more involved with ur shifting and gear choices on hills is th fucking best. Why even shift gears on flat? Downshifting makes no sense on flat. Driving stick on SF is pure joy
>>14812951
Don't confuse DCTs with autotragics.
>>14816044
>not a brand for car enthusiasts and mechanics lovers.
Was it ever? The E30 was a douchemobile too.
>>14816125
>Why even shift gears on flat?
Because you can select the gear you want exactly when you exit a corner and it feels awesome.
Driving stick in SF isn't pure joy, but I guess it's can seem cool to know exactly which gear to stay in while you go up a hill, especially since lower gears seem to be shorter on most manuals, so it feels like the right tool for the job.
>>14816128
Found the guy who can't shift. DCT is still a stupid fucking prndl or flappy paddle-based system. I don't see anything sportier about driving a DCT vs driving an automatic, except maybe that the next gear engages faster.
>>14812951
because the only people that want manuals in heavy sport sedans are american boyracers that can't even afford a second hand one anyway.
>>14812951
It's a expensive, big and very fast limousine. Nobody but journalists drive m5 on track.
>>14812951
>DCT a slushbox
>ZF 8 speed a slushbox
Just because it hurts your feels and doesn't have a clutch pedal doesn't mean it's slow.
>>14812951
Bench racing sells to normies more than muh feels so the DCT is winning
>>14812994
The new M2 just came out in Manual so you're safe. Not to mention the M135i/M3 and M4s have manual options. Manual doesn't really suit the M5 anymore and it never suited the M6.
>>14815988
A DCT is flat out better than human shifting in pretty much every respect. It's like arguing that manual math is better than using a computer to do raytracing "because it feels better". Sure, do a billion differential equations in a minute, go ahead.
>>14816347
>image comparing the big, fat M2 to a 2002
>the M2 is bigger and heavier than an E36 M3
REEEEEEE
>>14816354
That's a bad analogy. DCTs are faster, that's it. If you're chasing numbers they're where it's at, if you're chasing driving pleasure they're not. It's that simple.
>>14816364
If you could hook up a DCT to have a manualmode sequential gear lever and a standstill-clutch pedal so you could still do mad clutch dumps at the greenlight I'm pretty sure nobody would give a fuck about "true" manuals anymore.
How about synchromesh, is everyone who has one in their oh so "manual" car a poseur who don't even real shift for men? I'm pretty sure anyone here who'd try to drive a Ford Model T would explode the thing in two miles of driving.
>>14816375
Now you're being purposefully obtuse
>>14816354
>a billion differential equations in a minute
I don't think a normal graphics card could do that either, for what it's worth.
>>14816424
In a second no, in a minute I'd give it a fair chance. A Megahertz means a million calculation steps in a second, a Gigahz means a billion.
>>14816375
>I'm pretty sure anyone here who'd try to drive a Ford Model T would explode the thing in two miles of driving.
Maybe if you're granny shifting and not double clutching like you should
Automatics are better in every measurable way.
I <3 automatics.
>>14816430
Protip: none of these pedals is a clutch.
>>14816436
You're probably one of those people with vaginas
>>14816436
Did you stall again or why are you so buttblasted?
>>14816429
> A Megahertz means a million calculation steps in a second
It means clock speed, which means one full cycle of instructions. A billion IPC on a plain ol CPU isn't going to solve a billion differential equations.
Analytically solving arbitrary differential equations is basically impossible. What you want is a numerical method and then iterate, which you could do fairly effectively with a GPU. GTX Titan gives you like 1 TeraFLOPS performance, might be enough for your billion diff eq problem.
That said, analytically solving a differential equation still means you are a superior human being, and similarly being able to shift means you're better than those who can't.
>>14816358
The M2 is actually heavier than the M4 (GTS)
>>14816480
Lol I just slam them through MAPLE because FUCK doing that shit manually
>>14816491
It also doesn't use an S engine and should be killed with fire.
>>14816430
Lmao. Driving a model t is a lot more than double clutching
>>14816491
Why did you have to put the GTS into brackets? Are you retarded?
>>14812994
Buy it now and but 10-15k down
>>14816491
There will be an M2 CSL though. And it will be pretty light weight
>>14813417
My objective opinion rolling through. Modern automatics and dcts are better than manual in almost every way - they shift faster, are easier to use, and don't stall or crunch gears. That's why modern race cars use paddles because of the better performance and lap times. Traditional manuals are just more fun for driving for the sake of driving, as it adds extra challenge and satisfaction in honing one's shifting skills (anyone who thinks otherwise is just being a contrarian or can't drive manual). However cars are an appliance to most people and a manual transmission just makes that appliance harder to use, hence why manuals are selling so poorly and aren't being sold by most manufacturers anymore. Electric motors will probably replace internal combustion engines before manuals are fazed out completely anyway, at which point fuel will probably become harder and harder to buy until the point it would be impossible to drive a petrol car on the streets anyway.
>>14817301
Didn't mean to reply to that comment in particular, just a general comment.
>>14813122
I like you, I also have a hardtail mtb. Feels so much better.
>>14812951
Because you "enthusiasts" are too retarded to properly shift gears and fuck those high precision gearboxes faster than your dad did your mommy's butt and then complain about it on the Internet.
>>14813364
projecting 100% confirmed
im so depressed about this that i dont even care anymore
honestly
i just want insurance to be cheaper
give me an automatic old lexus i dont give a fuck anymore i just want to not waste thousands yearly
>>14812951
>DCT's and other slushboxes
t. Poorfag Ameripoo in a manual 90's Civic insisting his commuter is superior because he can do what every Euroshit has to
>>14812951
>butthurt autotragics complaining about how autos are better
The exact same argument can be applied to self-driving cars. They're faster, smoother, and safer. So all you auto cucks are going to turn in your licences when selfdrivers come out, right? Cause you'll never need to drive again, because a computer can do it so much better then you, right?
>>14816323
>>ZF 8 speed a slushbox
>Just because it hurts your feels and doesn't have a clutch pedal doesn't mean it's slow.
It does have a torque converter, desu
