I used a 2 week free Motortrend trial to watch the Camaro vs M4 head-2-head, and wow, BMW really blew it.
>$81,000
>no steering feel
>poor shifter feel
>less standard features than a Hyundai Elantra
>sounds like crap
>same performance as the Camaro on the track but consistently slower (2 out of 70 attempts) in a drag, and harder to drive fast
Why is BMW doing so poorly at this price point? It was almost embarassing to watch. Do they think their badge is good enough?
Style > substance
C63 amg is better than both anyway
>>14671641
It has exterior aesthetics going for it, and interior I suppose if you strongly prefer subtlety, but that's literally it. It didn't do better in any objective or subjective measure, aside from NVH which you hardly care about on a sports car anyway.
>>14671632
I wanna know how they made it sound like a 4 banger?
Amazing trick.
Also I read they semi fixed the steering and shifter issues recently.
>>14671654
Bmw just makes spongey shifters
>>14671632
Be careful when you listen to journalists. Especially today. It's tough to secure access to a brand-new Camaro if you don't talk shit about a year old M4.
Drive both for yourself. You might be very very surprised.
>>14671677
as true as this may be, bmw really ride off the success of their M series and top models. Kind of like audi except worse
It seems like the 3 "pony cars" don't even compete with each other any more, like they operate on 3 seperate levels. In terms of performance, the Challenger can't touch the Mustang, and the Mustang can't touch the Camaro.
>>14671632
Forgot to add
>poorer braking (not by much, 108 vs 102 ft)
>hiding sound with the speakers
>highly intrusive computer/driving modes, like auto-blipping always being on in every mode except Sport+, which basically turns the gas pedal into a "on-off" switch for the throttle
>>14671632
since when has BMW not relied on their badge?
this means absolutely nothing until you have poorfag autists 10 years from now passing them up on the used market
>>14671689
Maybe it's the M or maybe it's the dozen motorsport entries. Audi rides off of LeMans victories and Quattro. Mercedes needs F1, V8 Supercar and Ay Em Gee
>>14671692
Alright kiddies, lets talk about BMWs
Good BMWs
2002
M3
M5
330
550
635
Not to mention the countless RWD coupes that have a manual trans. And that's pretty good for a company that stayed away from SUV bullshit until 10 years ago.
Not to mention, they've only donated engines to two other cars. The McLaren F1 and the Rolls Royce Phantom, two of the best cars of all time.
that's pretty special, and worth recognizing the badge.
>>14671695
As much as I dislike their complete lack of manual options, Mercedes delivers in every department with their sports cars.
>>14671632
doesn't surprise me. bmw have been going downhill for awhile. I was so disappointed with the current m3
just the fact they even decided to change the model designation around was retarded
>>14671692
up until the e92 m3s were great cars
>>14671677
>It's tough to secure access to a brand-new Camaro you don't talk shit about a year old M4.
its tough to secure access to what is going to be one of the most common mid-tier performance cars in america..? (and its not even GM's halo car) if anything they'd want them to compare it to a Mustang (its actual rival) this Camaro vs M4 thing is just more or less for fun much like the Camaro Z28 vs Porsche 911/Caymen no one is going to cross-shop these ( i don't think) and it just makes people buttmad/gets them clicks.
Kinda like when Best Motoring compares a Lamborghini or something to a Subaru/Mitsubishi.
Apparently the M4 would need to be spec'd above 90k to have the same standard features as the 46k 2SS.
>>14671735
At the start of the video, they have the Camaro and Mustang lined up, but then say that "we've done this a million times before, we know the Camaro is a better car this time anyway, so let's try something different." Mustang drives off and an M4 takes its place.
Porsche makes better sports cars than BMW. Never choose a BMW over a Porsche
A lot of germans here tried to tell y'all that german cars are a maym nowdays, but you never listen.
Everything coming out of this place currently is shit and who ever supports Mercedes and the rest is supporting germanys death, because these car lobbie CEOs are the ones who wanted the "refugees" in first place to not pay proper wages to the workers here.
bmw doesn't really need to try anymore, they sell on badge alone
really the only good bmws left are the 2-series, those are real fun
BMW is dead.
More at 11.
>>14671892
It's like they're not even trying. What do they have going for them? Panel gap consistency? Soft dashes? They're interiors don't look particularly noteworthy.
>>14671892
BMW has been on suicide watch since '09
>>14671892
>>14671918
>>14671926
Either way unfortunately BMW probably isn't worried about any of that as they know they will always outsell the competition no matter what. they don't have to actually (be) the "Ultimate Driving Machine" as long as their buyers believe they are.
As long as they stay within their rivals they will never hurt in sales no matter who 1-ups them which will probably never push them to try as hard as they could leading to things like a Mustang/Camaro (even a mustang with a live axle) being compared to (and coming almost neck and neck in performance) to an M3/4 which probably would've never happened awhile ago.
Caddy is also working on making their cars weigh less which is something i thought BMW would've done since the M2 only weighs 25 lbs less than the M4 despite being physically smaller (kinda disappointing).
E46 M3 GTR and Z3 are my personal favorites from them.
>>14671849
I've had bmws in my life since I was born and the fact that I don't even know what a 2 series is says a lot
is it the former 1 series?
>>14672089
>start a company
>make awesome cars
>make literally 99% of the world want your cars
>start making shit cars
>people will keep buying them because of the badge
I hope you guys remember just how much money Chevy gives to motor trend
>>14671632
Good luck trying to close a 20 million dollar business deal if you show up to the meeting in a Camaro.
>>14671641
Gotta say, not a fan of the C-Class.
But the SL65AMG or E63 Touring? Yes please.
>>14671712
> 2002
I'm not sure I'd call it good, but it's definitely a classic
> M3
E30 - God, E36 - meh. E46 - Good. E9x - mixed. No experience with newer.
> M5
E34 - First. E39 - S62. Fun, but out-classed by an E46 M3. E60 - V10. Subjectively better, because E61 m5 was a thing
> 330
Not when the 335 is a thing, and when it's not, ZCP's are hard to find.
> 550
No. Just... No. But these are usually post-LCI in the used market, so there is that.
> 635
No experience.
>>14672240
Loads of rich dudes in the US drive around in fuckloud tricked out muscle cars here.
Nothing will ever pull me from my 01. There's just no point. I prefer E36 and E46 one's. New one's can get fucked. I would drive an E9X but for typical use I can out-do them if necessary.
https://youtu.be/mu1DPeFQbUE
>>14672240
If you're trying to close a deal like that, you're probably gonna show up in a taxi because you're likely coming in from out of town.
>>14671712
M235i
If we include regular commuter cars and not just performance vehicles, consumer reports said the E39 530i was the best car they ever reviewed.
>Alpha platform is better than BMW who hasnt been good for 15 years
stop the presses
>>14672291
The Euro S50 E36 M3 is godly too. Them and E46 ones for me.
>>14672116
Recently BMW has gotten very pigfat. The 5 series became the same size as older 7 series, the 3 series became the same size as older 5 series. The 2 series is basically what the 3 series should be, it's very similar to an E46.
>>14672974
BMW should have discontinued M cars after the E90. NOW they make an M EVERYTHING. That M no longer stands for Motorsport as much as it does for Money.
>>14672990
Except all of their engines and most of the chassis' are designed with motorsport in mind. Why do you think they went to turbos? More power, higher MPG and when you mount them in the Vee, the engine is much more compact. If they didn't need to worry about racing the 4.4L (like they now do with the M6 GT3) they could have just left the turbos out to the sides and not worried about it.
>>14671692
>507hp V10 powered coupe that sounds like angels trumpets
>manual transmission
>the car is shit it`s just the badge am i rite guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGDonDAVU8E
>>14671892
Hmm, interesting - how is it better? Because the latest GS-F is slow and has a 467hp V8.
>>14673018
One of the best cars ever hooked up to a manual transmission, but no one bought them. Now people wonder why BMW has fallen to the wayside.
Spoiler: It's fucking impossible to engineer the best motors in the world into a damn good chassis when you're not selling cars.
Also, the M6 Gran Coupe is available with a clutch and stick.
>>14673010
Turbos were used to artificiate (word?) power. The end was reached with the S54. Then they moved on to a larger displacement for more (they wish) performance. Now back with the i6 that are all forced induced.
Sure more power could be made with a naturally aspirated i6, but that would require a lot of advanced engineering that would push the cost of an M3 upwards to that of a 911.
>>14673029
http://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/the-clarkson-review-2016-lexus-gs-f/
>NA is better than turbo
>better steering at high speeds
>sounds like a 458 near redline
>no speed limiter
>feels smaller than it is
he says at the end that the m3 or m5 are both 'tremendous' but the gs-f is old school and that's what does it for him. classic clarkson.
>>14673050
turbos find and promote more power by pushing in more oxygen.
>>14671632
Go watch the review on the M2 vs the M4 on MOD
>>14672291
E28 was the first m5 nice try tho
>>14673053
Yeah but that`s still surprising because he hated the Lexus and loved the M4 in the RC-F vs M4 review.
>>14673125
because the m4 was built to drive fast
the rc-f was a fat car with a v8 that was supposed to be the coupe version of the is-f (which he liked aside from the transmission)
he says the gs-f is a capable sports sedan that is enjoyable to drive.
>>14673140
Enjoyable to drive - I don't doubt it.
But it can't compete with the big three - RS6, E63, M5, that's a fact.
>>14671784
Porsche belongs to VW, but /o/ hates VW.
>>14671784
Porsche does make better sports cars. But BMW makes the best practical sports cars with more than 2 seats.
>>14673316
>won't move engine in the middle because muh heritage
>instead bloat car with AWD and electronics to make it manageable
Absolute madmen.
>>14675552
>won't move engine in the middle because muh heritage
they already have TWO mid engine coupes
>instead bloat car with AWD and electronics to make it manageable
911 gt3 is rwd and weighs 1430kg...
>>14672231
>The ACR AND the GTR beat the Z06
>The GT350R beat the Z/28
>Caddy lost to Mercedes
>The Stingray lost to the 911
Whatever they're giving MT isn't enough apparently.
>>14672231
>CorvetteLetsItselfDown.jpg
>>14676938
its hard to cover up shit like this
but the willow springs "retest" where the gtr wasnt present and the z06 had custom traction control/damper settings fined tuned to that specific track from GMs testing the day before... that makes me wonder
>>14673284
>Clarkson says GS-F is better than M5
>other reviewers like it better too
>b-but it can't compete with muh German engineering
Please drive all the cars you talk about before spewing shit.
