http://gas2.org/2016/02/14/the-low-down-on-the-epa-race-car-modification-flap-doodle/
I saw this today and started looking into it further. The EPA is trying to make after market modifcations illegal on Production cars.What does /O/ think of this new law. How will this affect you?
Good.
Car enthusiasts are cancer
>>14563165
You're about 2 weeks late. Gtfo
It'll never pass, if it does it'll ruin the lives and livelihoods of tens of thousands of people, if not more
>>14563165
>The EPA is trying to make after market modifcations illegal on Production cars
Any modification that is related to the emissions system of your street car (intake, exhaust, tune, etc etc) has been illegal since the 70s.
I think this new stuff is just to extend it to 'off road' vehicles.
>it has been illegal for 40 years in america to modify your exhaust
top fucking kek land of the free
>>14563165
You're two weeks late OP.
two its not a matter of if it will pass or not the EPA can and does make regulations that are effectively law with out having to consult congress.
Its more of a matter if they will enforce it or not.
The only way they can be stopped is if they are sued, which is what sema is doing now.
Driving a car will be illegal by 20-30 years
>>14563165
>EPA just killed literally millions of jobs
>>14563188
>implying Murrica cares about the lives and livelihood of nine thousand chinese and a thousand mexicans
>>14563307
How about the thousands of Americans?
>>14563307
BBK products are made in the usa
Wait
If you are not meant to "tamper" the emission controls of your vehicule, and replacing said part is considered "tampering", does that mean that pretty much any car older than 40 years cannot legall be used on the streets, since rust and use kill most exhaust pipes.
>>14563347
As long as you didn't do anything to it yourself, it's legal.
As soon as you start fitting any aftermarket part that is not tested and approved by the EPA, your car is no longer legal.
>>14563368
What it you replace it with a stock piece in better shape though?
>>14563392
That's been tested or at least approved, since the car went on sale with it.
>>14563307
Even if those products were made outside of the US, there's always fags who pay for their installation, so a local grease monkey gets to pay their electric bill.
>>14563347
No I'm talking about anything that would make your car more track ready. From how it's stated it will cover more than emmissions devices. It would cover just about any aftermarket part.
>>14563404
It's probably a dumb question as I'm not from murrica and don't have much of a clue as to how these things might work but why can't aftermarket parts be certified then? Certification for new products and safety/quality/environmental labeling is a routine thing in the EU.
>>14563392
>>14563368
>>14563347
If it's a replacement part for a broken or underperforming piece you need to fix it to pass emissions testing. If you use a tune that defeats emissions controls or remove catalyst and charcoal canisters you are breaking a law. Unless you fail emissions testing you won't be investigated.
>>14563416
>>14563424
They are trying to keep drift Missles off the road. Most catalogues advertise "48" state legal referring to not outlawed everywhere but California and 1 fly over state. But removing catalytic converters is pointless. Because it doesn't gain any power if it is working properly and your car is properly tuned.
>>14563201
>Any modification that is related to the emissions system of your street car (intake, exhaust, tune, etc etc) has been illegal since the 70s.
I think this new stuff is just to extend it to 'off road' vehicles.
This is completley fucking false.
Even the super restrictive CARB evaluates and stamps aftermarket exhausts so that they may be installed in commifornia which has much mor restrictive laws than the EPA.
Nothing on a federal level says altering your vehicles tune is illegal. The legality of such a modification is state dependent based on emissions testing, if any.
Nothing about intakes is related to emissions at all. You fucking retard.
>>it has been illegal for 40 years in america to modify your exhaust
>top fucking kek land of the free
You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
>>14563456
>You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
Yuropoors for ya.
>>14563456
>the proposed rules are a clarification of provisions that have been in effect since 1977. Under EPA rules, it has always been illegal to modify the emission control system of any engine intended for street use.
Not try explain how removing your cat isnt modifying the emissions control system.
Stay mad america is literally german tier
>>14563512
Quoting a story that is wrong still makes you wrong, retard.
It is illegal to remove the emissions equipment from a street vehicle under EPA rules. It is NOT illegal to modify the exhaust. If you had ever been to the U.S. you would know how fucking stupid your assertion is. Like 30% of vehicles on the road have modified exhausts. More when it comes to trucks and performance cars.
If it were illegal to modify your exhaust then exhaust repairs would not be possible. Changing the muffler of a car has no impact on emissions of that vehicle.
Changing a stock cat for an aftermarket cat is a standard repair procedure when a catalytic converter goes bad. If that aftermarket cat happens to flow more than the cat that came on the car, so be it.
Further, emissions testing or inspection is not mandated on a federal level by any law or governing bureaucracy. Every state dictates whether or not it wants to visually inspect emissions equipment and/or sniff the exhaust of the cars on it's roads. Many states doe not do this at all. In those states almost anything goes, and is completely legal.
See videos below.
https://youtu.be/t65VypaaRJU
https://youtu.be/sE5W4VJQ1X4
https://youtu.be/3GQxXT0BpB4
You better believe these street legal cars have "modified exhausts".
tl;dr You are a complete fucking moron and you have no idea what you are talking about.
>>14563582
That last video should have been this one. Not the Camaro.
https://youtu.be/1yVnho0xqow
>>14563582
>It is illegal to remove the emissions equipment from a street vehicle under EPA rules. It is NOT illegal to modify the exhaust
So a catalytic converter isnt emissions equipment and isnt part of the exhaust? Americans going full retard trying to defend their germany tier laws.
Enjoy having your car confiscated for throwing the cat away.
>>14563165
Daily reminder.
This is what you get when the government ducks over a muffler shop owner
>>14563610
>So a catalytic converter isnt emissions equipment and isnt part of the exhaust?
Cool straw man, I never said this.
You can modify the exhaust, including the catalytic converter, without removing the emissions equipment (and thus breaking any laws) retard. Do you even understand what modifications are?
Jesus it's like I'm arguing with a 12 year old who just found out what cars are.
Please cite the Federal law that says modifying the exhaust of any car is illegal. I'll wait.
>Enjoy having your car confiscated for throwing the cat away.
Cool shit you pulled out of your ass retard. Citation needed.
>>14563653
>Cool straw man, I never said this.
But I did and you tried to argue it. So yorue saying im right?
>Do you even understand what modifications are?
yeah, removing the cat and throwing it in the bin. Stop trying to move goal posts faggot.
>Please cite the Federal law that says modifying the exhaust of any car is illegal
I already cited the law saying removal or modification of emissions equipment is illegal
>Cool shit you pulled out of your ass retard. Citation needed
>"its not illegal to remove or modify emissions control equipment"
citation needed
>>14563683
>But I did and you tried to argue it. So yorue saying im right?
No, you said modifying an exhaust is illegal. Which it isn't.
Removing the emissions equipment is illegal. Modifying it is not.
>yeah, removing the cat and throwing it in the bin.
No. You can modify an exhuast without removing the cat you fucking retard. Have you literally never head of high-flow catalytic converters? Jesus you are a moron.
>Stop trying to move goal posts faggot.
How hilarious. You don't understand the difference between modifying an exhaust and removing emissions equipment completely.
>I already cited the law saying removal or modification of emissions equipment is illegal
You cited no such law. You cited a "green" website that erroneously referred to a law that said such.
Cite the law or shut the fuck up.
>>"its not illegal to remove or modify emissions control equipment"
>citation needed
You are making the claim, retard. Burden of proof is on you.
I see this whole "logic" thing is way over your little retarded head.
>>14563706
>No, you said modifying an exhaust is illegal
I said modifications to the emissions control system part of the exhaust is illegal, which it is. Maybe you should learn some reading comprehension instead of only seeing what you want to see, ass mad faggot.
>You can modify an exhuast without removing the cat you fucking retard
Again, see above. So ass mad you cant even fucking keep up with the argument and are making your own. Removal of catalytic converter is a popular modification in america, is it not? (MUH STRAIGHT PIPED V8 MO FUGGA). Its also illegal.
>"im just going to plug my ears and continue to deny facts because they hurt my feelings!"
>>>/r/eddit
>>14563201
>>14563347
>>14563582
>>14563610
It's illegal to modify your exhaust already. The caveat though is you are allowed to repair the exhaust with aftermarket parts as the EPA recognizes that exhaust systems wont last the life of the vehicle in many regions.
It's completely unenforcable. They don't know if you changed your pipes because the old ones rotted out or because you wanted louder pipes.
>>14563739
>>14563706
you faggots are both right...and stupid.
it is against federal law to remove or modify the oem emissions equipment provided with your automobile at time of manufacture.
It is NOT illegal to replace these components with higher performing aftermarket units as long as it passes all applicable emissions testing for that make, model, year, configuration
Some more facts to trigger the delusional american
>It has been illegal to modify any emissions equipment on any engine sold for road-legal use in the US since the Clean Air Act was amended in 1977
>modification is defined as “removing, disconnecting, damaging, or in any way rendering ineffective any emission control device or element installed on a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine.”
http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/9101CVY5.PDF?Dockey=9101CVY5.PDF
It is also illegal to install a turbo charger on engines that didnt come with an epa-approved turbocharger from factory. So installing a turbo on a 2003 mustang is... ILLEGAL.
http://itepsrv1.itep.nau.edu/itep_course_downloads/~GeneralAQInfo/Pollutants_Sources_Controls/Mobile%20Sources/DontTamper_EmissionControls.pdf
Stop being idiotic sensationalist kneejerkers.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a28135/heres-what-the-epas-track-car-proposal-actually-means/
They specifically mention road cars, not track only cars. Nothing would have changed.
>>14563264
>tens of milliions of jobs
What a fucking stupid thing to say. There aren't even "tens of millions" of Americans.
>>14563165
Luckily the EPA police isnt a thing.
>>14563850
>Nothing would have changed
because laws preventing people from modifying their emissions control system (straight pipes mo fugga) or installing turbo chargers on non epa-approved engines (muh turbo na6 miats) have already been illegal for decades
>>14563739
>I said modifications to the emissions control system part of the exhaust is illegal, which it is.
Wrong. There is nothing illegal about replacing or modifying your catalytic converter. Replacing yoru catalytic converter with a higher performance catalytic converter is a performance modification that is perfectly legal.
Things like mufflers swaps or swapping for larger/higher flowing piping are also exhaust modifications.
You can both modify the exhaust as a whole legally and you can modify the emissions components of your exhaust legally. You are completely wrong and have no idea what you are talking about.
What you cannot do is completely remove emissions equipment from a car that was so equipped when new unless that car is to be use offroad only.
>Maybe you should learn some reading comprehension instead of only seeing what you want to see, ass mad faggot.
I can read fine. You are simply saying things that are completely incorrect and it blatantly clear you ahve no idea what you are talking about. Your level of 'expertise' on the subject is the bullshit you read on the OP's story, which is hilarious because that's a retarded "green" website that got it's shit wrong and didn't even cite anything.
>So ass mad you cant even fucking keep up with the argument and are making your own.
I'm keeping up just fine. You seem to be mad that you said some stupid shit and were shown to be wrong. Then you said more stupid shit and I asked for citations, you were unable to produce said citations so you got even more mad.
>Removal of catalytic converter is a popular modification in america, is it not?
No, it's not. Especially not on a car that's meant to be road legal.
Removing the cat is not the only possible way to modify your exhaust.
>"im just going to plug my ears and continue to deny facts because they hurt my feelings!"
In order for your bullshit to be even considered slightly 'factual' you must provide some sort of real citation backing up what you said
>It has been illegal to modify any emissions equipment on any engine sold for road-legal use in the US since the Clean Air Act was amended in 1977
>sold for road legal use
So what if I buy a vehicle intended for off-road use and then register it for road use?
>>14563644
Fuck yeah Killdozer!
>>14563771
Replacing a portion of your exhaust with a portion that was not factory, in attempt to repair or otherwise, is a modification of the exhaust of the vehicle.
This is completley legal at a state and federal level in every state.
Each state has various levels of restrictions (and testing) surrounding this.
The yuropoor has no idea what he is talking about.
>>14563786
>it is against federal law to remove or modify the oem emissions equipment provided with your automobile at time of manufacture.
No it's not. It is illegal to remove the emissions equipment period. You can replace the emissions equipment and/ exhaust of a vehicle so long as there is emissions equipment on the aftermarket exhaust. This sort of modification is completely legal for repair and for performance modification of a vehicle.
What is not legal is the removal of emissions equipment and replacing with an exhaust without emissions equipment.
>It is NOT illegal to replace these components with higher performing aftermarket units as long as it passes all applicable emissions testing for that make, model, year, configuration
This statement is in direct conflict with the one prior.
Removing OEM emissions equipment is not illegal so long as emissions equipment is also replaced in the modifications of the car. If that aftermarket modified exhaust has emissions equipment and happens to be higher flowing and higher performance, so be it. There is nothing illegal about this.
>>14563896
What you're missing is that exhaust is a big part of emissions equipment. Most engines won't meet emissions standards once they have aftermarket pipes and a tune.
>>14563896
>There is nothing illegal about replacing or modifying your catalytic converter
If it meets the same emissions it had from the factory, no. Installing a gutted out 'hi-performance' cat that is purely there for looks and doesnt function as it should is illegal.
>Replacing yoru catalytic converter with a higher performance catalytic converter is a performance modification that is perfectly legal
if it meets passes emissions testing or is EPA approved, sure
>which is hilarious because that's a retarded "green" website that got it's shit wrong and didn't even cite anything.
dude, read the site again. various links provided to "non green" sites which have even more factual information. fuck off with your bullshit.
see >>14563795, should add more clarity
>modification is defined as “removing, disconnecting, damaging, or in any way rendering ineffective any emission control device or element installed on a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine.”
>>14563795
>Some more facts to trigger the delusional american
Your reading comprehension is terrible. As is your grasp of the argument at hand.
>>modification is defined as “removing, disconnecting, damaging, or in any way rendering ineffective any emission control device or element installed on a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine.”
This says you cannot remove or disable the emissions equipment on your vehicle. No where does it say you cannot modify your exhaust or replace it with higher flowing components while keeping some form of the emissions equipment intact.
All this is saying is it is illegal to completely remove or render your catalytic converter ineffective. This is not saying you cannot modify your exhaust or touch your emissions equipment.
>It is also illegal to install a turbo charger on engines that didnt come with an epa-approved turbocharger from factory. So installing a turbo on a 2003 mustang is... ILLEGAL.
What the fuck does this have to do with anything?
I thought this was already shut down?
>>14563941
>What you're missing is that exhaust is a big part of emissions equipment.
Parts of the exhaust are part of emissions equipment. Namely cats and pre-cats. There is nothing in law about removing, replacing, or repairing the pipe, muffler, or catalytic converters of an exhaust in a vehicle so long as the emissions components are still present after the modification/repair.
>Most engines won't meet emissions standards
EPA emissions standards are for new cars sold. There are no EPA standards for used cars and there is no EPA testing or regulatory body for determining or enforcing use car emissions.
This is handled on a state level if at all by the respective states individual emissions regulatory bodies.
>once they have aftermarket pipes and a tune.
Many cars meet emissions standards with aftermarket pipes and tune, even in CA.
>>14563859
Wat? There's like 350 million people in the US
>>14563955
>This says you cannot remove or disable the emissions equipment on your vehicle
which was my entire argument from the beginning you fucking spastic. again with your reading comprehension and only seeing what you want to see
>Any modification that is related to the emissions system of your street car (intake, exhaust, tune, etc etc) has been illegal since the 70s.
and modification as defined by the EPA in this case is,
“removing, disconnecting, damaging, or in any way rendering ineffective any emission control device or element installed on a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine.”
>No where does it say you cannot modify your exhaust or replace it with higher flowing components while keeping some form of the emissions equipment intact
If those modifications dont meet the same emissions standards as the factory car then it is illegal. Deal with it.
>What the fuck does this have to do with anything?
it means america is literally worse than germany when it comes to engine modifications. turbo chargers on a na6 is allowed in germany if the specific aftermarket kit is approved by the relevant authority. in america it is flat out illegal.
>>14563512
The emissions control system us the electronic component of the car that controls the operation of the engine based on data it reads from its sensors. The catalytic converter is monitored by the emissions control system.
The catalytic converter can be replaced without altering the ecs. The ecs cannot be altered legally because it controls what the car thinks is okay to let fly out your tail pipe.
>>14563954
>If it meets the same emissions it had from the factory
Wrong. Even a bone stock car with OEM emissions equipment won't meet factory emissions standards after a certain amount of time.
There is no Federal or EPA standards for used car emissions. Nor is there any means of testing or enforcement for these non-existent standards.
>Installing a gutted out 'hi-performance' cat that is purely there for looks and doesnt function as it should is illegal.
Cool straw man. No one said anything about installing a "gutted out cat" that is "just there for looks".
I said a high flow catalytic converter. There is nothing illegal about replacing your stock catalytic converter with an aftermarket higher flowing catalytic converter.
>if it meets passes emissions testing or is EPA approved, sure
There is no used car EPA emissions testing or standards. You have no idea what you are talking about.
The EPA has standards a new car must meet and the law says you cannot disable or remove the emissions equipment on your car. That's it. It says nothing about replacing or repairing the emissions equipment on your car with aftermarket pieces.
>dude, read the site again. various links provided to "non green" sites which have even more factual information.
I don't care that you think those links prove anything. i'm telling you you need to provide the actual law that says you cannot legally modify your exhaust or emissions equipment in the U.S. as you originally asserted after you read it on that bullshit website.
>see >>14563795, should add more clarity
Not at all. That deals with removing or disabling the emissions equipment, not with modifying your exhaust or replacing it with aftermarket parts.
>>14563512
Pic related
Yours truly, an American with aftermarket exhaust on all of his vehicles who hasn't been taken to the Al Gore Gulag for Earth Crimes yet.
>bonus kek, they're an e46, e36 and an R13 F650GS
>>14563165
>governments and agencies pushing tighter and more strict emissions laws onto consumers (the public)
>gotta pay thousands a year to insure a shitbox
>tax is £250 a year for literally 20 year old 4 cylinder shitboxes
>being taxed for having a car
>if you fail emissions testing you get charged more or fined
>if someone crashes into you, YOUR insurance goes up significantly
>literally getting fucked from all angles just so they make more money off you
>meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of work vans, trucks, and registered vehicles seemingly getting away with it, spewing clouds of decatted black smoke you can smell from a mile away
>this is ok
Oy vey, you better not put a 0.2 inch wider diameter exhaust on, or tune your car to your liking. We'll take your shekels 8Bccccccccxxxddxzzxxxxxxxx
>>14564008
you realize carb'd cars have cats, right? emissions control system is literally any part designed to cut down on emissions. its not a fucking ecu.
>>14564013
>i'm telling you you need to provide the actual law that says you cannot legally modify your exhaust or emissions equipment in the U.S.
and i have, read the PDFs i linked you gigantic fucking faggot
>German poster somehow determines that you can't modify cars in the US through a complete misreading of the laws
>suddenly feels better about his bone stock diesel hatch he will drive for the rest of his life
>posts walls of text for an hour as even the thought that his country might have something on the US in the car department is literally the greatest thing to ever happen to him
Holy fuck, I am so glad I live in a state with no emissions testing.
And why the fuck is some edgy European in here frothing at the mouth over shit that doesn't even concern them?
>>14564032
Im not german.
>determines that you can't modify cars in the US
learn to reading comprehensions
>so ass mad at facts he creates situations in his head to make himself feel better about the situation
>>14563933
This is from 1991 and the guidelines are very strict. Basically anything other than stock pipes are illegal. Even aftermarket pipes are suppose to maintain the same diameter and configuration as the factory pipes.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/exhsysrepair.pdf
>>14563174
3edgy5me
>>14563976
>which was my entire argument from the beginning you fucking spastic
You said:
>>14563201
>Any modification that is related to the emissions system of your street car (intake, exhaust, tune, etc etc) has been illegal since the 70s.
This is completely false.
It is only illegal if you disable, remove, or render ineffective the emissions equipment of your car.
You can replace the entirety of your vehicles exhaust so long as it still has as many catalytic converters after the modification as it did before. Even if those catalytic converters are high flow, high performance catalytic converters.
>and modification as defined by the EPA in this case is,
Removing or disabling the emissions equipment of a car is not the only way to modify the exhaust. See above.
>If those modifications dont meet the same emissions standards as the factory car then it is illegal.
Wrong. There is nothing in the law that says aftermarket replacements must match any OEM component or standard in any way. If you claim that there is such a thing in law you are going to have to provide a citation.
There is no EPA testing or standards for used cars. And used cars, even with OEM emissions equipment don't necessarily meet factory emissions requirements.
>it means america is literally worse than germany when it comes to engine modifications.
Wrong. You have no idea what you are talking about. You have proven in this thread you are talking completely out of your asshole and the entirety of your knowledge on this subject comes from the fucking article in the OP you read like 30 minutes ago. You're a fucking moron.
>turbo chargers on a na6 is allowed in germany if the specific aftermarket kit is approved by the relevant authority. in america it is flat out illegal.
Cool arbitrary metric bro.
>>14564053
>is it tampering to install dual exhaust pipes on a vehicle that came with single exhaust pipes
>yes
looks like its illegal to modify your exhaust system, regardless of whether the cat is there or not
>>14564027
No where in those PDF's does it say you cannot modify your exhaust or replace your OEM emissions equipment. Cite the exact passage or STFU.
You're a fucking retard.
>>14564081
>It is only illegal if you disable, remove, or render ineffective the emissions equipment of your car.
and modification in that case as defined by the epa is....
>“removing, disconnecting, damaging, or in any way rendering ineffective any emission control device or element installed on a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine.”
>There is no EPA testing or standards for used cars
so i can go buy a used 2016 mustang, throw the cat away, install a turbo and it would be perfectly legal? citation needed.
>your knowledge on this subject comes from the fucking article in the OP you read like 30 minutes ago
ive provided links to actual EPA documents which support everything I say. Again with the "seeing what you only want to see" bullshit.
So ass mad you have literally gone full retard and changed the argument to whatever suits your delusions
>>14564100
>No where in those PDF's does it say you cannot modify your exhaust
see https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/exhsysrepair.pdf
>illegal to install dual exhaust pipes on car that came with single exhaust, even if second catalytic converter is added
Looks like its illegal to modify your exhaust, regardless of emissions equipment !
>>14564069
That says changing the exhaust configuration, such as taking a single exhaust single converter setup and changing it to a dual exhaust dual converter setup is considered tampering. NO where ddoes it address changing a catalytic converter for a higher flow catalytic converter.
And while it does mention the size and length of the pipe is specified by the manufacturer and may change the emissions it does NOT say doing so in the aftermarket is considered tampering UNLESS changing the configuration (such as going from a single cat to a dual cat dual exhaust setup)
It never says in there that changing the length or size of the exhaust pipe is considered tampering with emissions, only that changing the exhaust configuration is tampering (such as single to dual without an equivalent setup for that engine in another vehicle.)
>>14564097
Changing from single to dual exhaust is tampering (unless an equivalent setup exists from the OEM). Increasing the flow of your stock exhaust configuration via higher flow piping/cats/etc is not illegal.
>>14564097
>The general rule is that a motor vehicle emission control system (which includes the exhaust configuration) may not be changed from an EPA certified configuration without subjecting the repair shop to liability for violating the federal tampering prohibition. configuration, including the location of the converters, and exhaust pipe diameter and length, are items specified by the manufacturer because engines and some of the associated emissions systems are generally affected by the exhaust system backpressure, which subsequently affects vehicle emissions.
Yeah, it's basically illegal to modify. Only legal to repair. It's even stricter with the cat. You have to have valid reason to repair the cat.
http://www.walkerexhaust.com/support/understanding-catalytic-converter/epa-converter-basics
>>14564143
>NO where ddoes it address changing a catalytic converter for a higher flow catalytic converter.
go to
>>14564166
A high flow cat may affect the backpressure.
>>14564143
>such as taking a single exhaust single converter setup and changing it to a dual exhaust dual converter setup is considered tampering
So a modification to the exhaust is considered tampering, and as such is illegal? Thank you!
>NO where ddoes it address changing a catalytic converter for a higher flow catalytic converter
The argument was never about replacing a cataclysmic converter with another catalytic converter. Stop attempting trying to change the argument to suit your butt hurt delusions, thank you!
>It never says in there that changing the length or size of the exhaust pipe is considered tampering with emissions
Read again nerd
>the exhaust configuration (which clearly states includes the pipe diameter and length, length and diameter being specified by the manufacturer) may not be changed from the EPA approved configuration (how it came from factory)
butt mad americuck being btfo because he doesnt even know the rules of his own nation roflmao
>>14564112
>and modification in that case as defined by the epa is....
Removing emissions equipment is not the only way you can modify your exhaust. Trying to argue otherwise is idiotic.
You claimed you cannot make any modification in relation to emissions equipment. Replacing your cat with a high flow performance cat is a common modification in the U.S. and is perfectly legal.
You are wrong.
>so i can go buy a used 2016 mustang, throw the cat away, install a turbo and it would be perfectly legal?
Another straw man. No one said anything like that.
You are breaking the law because you are compeltly removing the emissions equipment from your car.
Again, there is no emissions standards for a used car. In your example you are in violation of the law because you tampered illegally with your emissions equipment, not because you failed to meet some nonexistant EPA used car emissions standards.
>ive provided links to actual EPA documents which support everything I say.
You've provided liks to EPA documents but you cannot provide the exact passage that backs up what you claim. Providing a citation that does not back up your bullshit is not a valid citation for your argument.
>Again with the "seeing what you only want to see" bullshit.
Yet you cannot provide the citation and quote the passage that backs up the bullshit you are claiming.
>So ass mad you have literally gone full retard and changed the argument to whatever suits your delusions
Why would I be mad that you have bade some bullshit claims and are upset that you cannot back them up at all?
It seems to me that you are clearly upset that you have made retarded assumptions and failed your own argument.
>>14564123
>see https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/exhsysrepair.pdf
Once again. Posting a link and being unable to quote the passage within said link that backs up your assertion is not evidence of anything.
>Looks like its illegal to modify your exhaust, regardless of emissions equipment !
Going from single exhaust to dual exhaust is not the only possible way you can modify your exhaust.
>>14564178
>go to
been there
>A high flow cat may affect the backpressure.
Changing something that "may" affect something that "may" effect something else is not valid legal indictment. In order for something to be proven to be illegal it must be PROVEN that changing the back pressure of an exhaust somehow ultimately effected the emissions produced by the vehicle.
In order to prove this you must also have a baseline for the quantity of emissions prouced by the vehicle before the modification or alteration of the exhaust. No such 'used car' emissions standards exist with the EPA.
The EPA cannot prosecute and prove that your modifications had a detrimental impact on the emissions of the vehicles unless they somehow had quantified controlled emissions testing of your vehicle before the modifications or alterations were made.
No one can be prosecuted for a supposed crime based on what someone (or some entity) thinks "might" have happened.
No, new car emissions standards cannot be used in this way. Even a completely stock used car will have different emissions than a new car. These standards are not applicable.
Unless a crime can be proven to have been committed no crime was committed. Something cannot be said to be illegal unless it can be proven to be illegal.
>>14564244
LOL all my arguments are correct and you're literally only hung up on "huur replacing a cat with another cat is a modification too so it's legal and everything you say is wrong!". Jusy that one fucking thing. You can't even bother arguing anything else because you're ass mad as fuck and just want to pick on one single thing so you can say I'm wrong
Stay ass mad you can't legally change the length or diameter of your exhaust, the configuration of the exhaust, or make any modification that would have a negative impact on the emissions produced by the vehicle. Including installing a turbocharger on an engine that never came with a turbocharger from factory.
> daily reminder it's illegal to turbo charge muh vortecs and ls engines
> also illegal to install dual exhaust on a single exhaust vehicle
> or do a hectic 3" system on your honda that came with 2" exhaust from the factory
TOP FUCKING KEK America "the land of car enthusiasts"
>>14564244
>>14564255
Jesus, you're in so much denial you're demanding us to spoon feed the info to you. lol, It's all fucking illegal. Get over it, I doubt the feds are going to bust down your door down over it.
>The EPA guidelines state that replacement converters may be installed only in the following situations:
>The vehicle is missing a converter.
> A state or local inspection program has determined that the existing converter needs replacement.
>The vehicle a 1995 or newer model that is more than eight years old or has more than 80,000 miles on it, and a legitimate need for replacement has been established and documented.
It's illegal to arbitrarily decide you want to throw a high flow car on your car. It's even illegal for you to replace a cat.
>1990 Clean Air Act Amendments even prohibit private individuals from installing "converter replacement pipes" on their own vehicles. Anyone who installs such pipes would violate section 203(a)(3)(A) and (B) of the Clean Air Act (Act).
>>14564190
>So a modification to the exhaust is considered tampering, and as such is illegal? Thank you!
A modification, in this specific instance.
Not ALL modifications as you have claimed.
Stop being willfully stupid.
>The argument was never about replacing a cataclysmic converter with another catalytic converter.
yes it was, your original statement was that mo modification could be made regarding the emissions equipment of a vehicle. Replacing a catalytic converter with a higher flowing catalytic converter is just such a modification which is completely legal.
>Stop attempting trying to change the argument to suit your butt hurt delusions, thank you!
You are attempting to change the argument to try and backpedal out of your original completely false statements. Just admit you are wrong and stop acting like a fucking idiot.
>Read again nerd
I read it. It makes general statements about what might effect emissions regarding back pressure based on manufacturer specification. No where in that document does it say actually changing back pressure is "tampering" or "illegal".
It says changing the configuration (such as going from single to dual exhaust) is tampering. It says nothing about increasing the flow of the original configuration as being tampering.
>>14564226
cool samefaggotry.
It's hilarious how you do this in every thread you get shit all over in and you always samefag in the same exact way.
>>14564290
>LOL all my arguments are correct and you're literally only hung up on "huur replacing a cat with another cat is a modification too so it's legal and everything you say is wrong!".
You claimed modifying your exhaust emissions components was illegal. You ahve been unable to prove this assertion.
Replacing your cat with a high flow cat is a modification to your exhaust emissions that increases performance and is legal. This fact alone renders your entire original statement competently false.
Please try again, this time without getting upset that you were wrong.
>Stay ass mad you can't legally change the length or diameter of your exhaust
Citation needed. Link and exact passage.
Stop pulling shit out of your ass.
>the configuration of the exhaust
Never even a point of debate.
> or make any modification that would have a negative impact on the emissions produced by the vehicle.
Citation needed. Link and exact passage.
>Including installing a turbocharger on an engine that never came with a turbocharger from factory.
This has absolutely nothing to do with anything discussed in this thread.
>TOP FUCKING KEK America "the land of car enthusiasts"
Your asshurt is palpable.
>>14564296
>Jesus, you're in so much denial
I'm not in denial. I am flatly stating the facts. You are just upset that you don't agree with them.
>>14564032
shut the fuck up im an american and lived in germany for a year their car culture is much better than ours and not to mention most highways are unrestricted and a much better selection of cars. besides tuv shit germany is dank. americans are so fucking stupid and so is this countrys laws.
>>14564343
>>14564343
So far you have only managed to provide one example of exhaust modification that isn't illegal. Everything else I have said is correct and you're attempting to invalidate those facts by picking on a single thing. The definition of full on ass mad.
> citation needed citation needed citation needed
Already been provided.
> huur it has nothing to do with the discussion in this thread
Why not? This thread is about draconian laws regarding engine modifications. Not especially about whether it's legal to replace a cat with another cat, which you're so hung up on :^)
All this fucking denial kek
Enjoy not being able to install a turbo charger on your mustangs camaros civics and 240sx you ass mad faggot TOP KEK
> bbbut i can replace a cat with another cat and that's the only thing that matters waah waah!
>>14564385
>So far you have only managed to provide one example of exhaust modification that isn't illegal.
That's the great thing about idiots like you making blanket statements about shit you are clueless about.
I only have to provide one example of how you were wrong to demonstrate that you were fucking wrong.
See how that works?
Thanks for admitting that you're a retard that said stupid shit that was completely wrong about something you have no idea about.
>>14564352
You've stated your opinion as fact and really haven't backed up anything you've said. You're not allowed to replace your cat. The cat can only be replaced under certain conditions at a repair facility and with an approved converter. read the links. You need to read the epa link in its entirety.
>>14564400
> this post
Thanks for proving you're an ass mad faggot in full denial mode
>>14564402
Don't bother
He's one of those faggots who demand everyone spoon feed him and they still cry when it isn't "good enough" (more like when it conflicts with their delusions)
Jusy look at >>14564400
He literally says that all the facts I posted are invalid because he autistically focused on one tiny thing which i said several times I did not care about
>>14564412
>>14564430
You literally said that modifying the emissions equipment of your exhaust was illegal in the U.S.
You've no admitted that modifying literally THE exhaust emissions equipment in the exhaust, the catalytic converter, is not illegal.
This is not harping on a small technicality. This completely destroys your entire assertion.
You stated modifying the emissions equipment in your exhaust is illegal. This is a patently and completely false statement as you've now admitted.
No amount of pointing to the certain other situations where modifying your exhaust (such as changing it's configuration) might put you out of compliance will make your original assertion true in any way.
Stop being upset that you were wrong and you got called on it. Stop trying to weasel out of being wrong. Just admit it and stop being a fucking idiot, and refrain from talking abotu shit you are clueless on in the future.
It's that simple.
>>14564705
> the sky is blue
>"nah uh i see a cloud there you're wrong faggot!
Literally you at this very moment, kid
Please refer back to all my other, more specific, non Blanket statement points. Oh but of course you don't care about that because you know they are all correct and you're unable to prove otherwise.
Modifying your exhaust system IS illegal. This is a fact.
Replacing a catalytic converter with another catalytic converter is more of a repair than a modification.
Are you also going to go full autist mode and claim that painting your exhaust pipe pink is a modification, therefore it's legal to modify your exhaust system?
Maybe you can't see it through all your anger. But attempting to invalidate several facts because of one tiny point you chose to get hung up on (which I never specifically stated by the way, you just happened to choose it) is the highest form of autism.
So...
Enjoy not being able to modify the length or diameter of your exhaust, throw the cat away, go with a dual pipe system over a single, install a turbo charger on an engine that didn't come with one from factory, and countless other popular modifications that are deemed illegal in the hundreds upon Hundreds of pages of epa laws and regulations
> but huur duur none of that matters bevause I can replace my factory cat with an aftermarket cat!
Top fucking kek
>>14564783
> the sky is blue
>Literally you at this very moment, kid
Not an equivalent argument at all. Try again.
It's like if you said:
>ALL CARS HAVE SOLID ROOFS
And I told you about convertibles
then you started throwing a tantrum saying:
>THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN SOME CARS DON'T HAVE SOLID ROOFS. I'M NOT WRONG!
You said modifying the emissions equipment on cars in America is illegal. This is a flat all or nothing blanket statement. Literally THE PIECE of exhaust emissions equipment can be modified legally.
Your statement was completely wrong based purely on the fact that you can in fact modify the exhaust emissions equipment legally. This fact renders your statement completely false.
It's hilarious watching you try to weasel out of the fact that you were blatantly wrong by claiming it was "only a single instance" that you were wrong or some such nonsense. Especially hilarious when were talking about literally legally modifying the very emissions equipment you flatly claimed was illegal to modify.
>>14564844
> still hung up on his autistic bullshit
You've failed to address any other point I've made and you continue to fixate on "well replacing a cat with another cat is a modification so...."
Is that all you've got dude really? In such denial of the harsh reality you pick on one thing and one thing only in an attempt to invalidate everything else I've said and continue to say
> It's hilarious watching you try to weasel out of the fact that you were blatantly wrong by claiming it was "only a single instance" that you were wrong or some such nonsense
I and it's hilarious you keep fixating one that one thing to avoid Confronting my other points!
Okay let's have it your way
I was wrong to make a blanket statement like that :^)
Now refer to my other points faggot
>>14564891
I don't care about any other point that you've made. My point was that you were wrong. Literally the statement that you made that I initially argued against was wrong and I have effectively demonstrated that.
You hav eproceeded to get butthurt about being wrong and taken the argument off into left field in order to try and weasel out of the fact that you were wrong, which is hilarious.
You said exhaust emissions was illegal to modify.
I demonstrated that this claim was wrong.
You proceeded to sperg out because you were wrong and claim that you weren't wrong because in some instances it is illegal to modify the exhaust.
This fact does not matter. Even if in some instances it is illegal to modify the exhaust, you can legally modify the exhaust and exhaust emissions equipment. That is the point, that is what you claimed counter to, and that is why you were wrong.
You were wrong and now you just cannot deal with the fact that you were corrected and shown to be an idiot.
>>14564920
More like. ..
> facts are posted
> you're upset at the fact America isn't the modification haven you all make it out to be
> choose to fixate one on point in an attempt to invalidate the rest so you don't feel as bad about the reality if the situation
>"no no I dojt care about anything else just this"
Enjoy not being to turbo your mustangs or camaros or civics or 240sx shit heaps :^)
>tfw own a car exempt from needless bullshit regulation
have fun, faggots
>>14564957
>> facts are posted
You posted no facts, just plain wrong assertions.
>> you're upset at the fact America isn't the modification haven you all make it out to be
Red Herring. This was never even a point of debate before you posted your flatly wrong statements.This was only ever brought up by you as a diversionary tactic once your statement was called out.
>> choose to fixate one on point in an attempt to invalidate the rest so you don't feel as bad about the reality if the situation
You made a statement and I showed that statement to be wrong with the very piece of emissions equipment you claimed was illegal to modify. This completely blew your entire assertion out of the water as factually incorrect bullshit. This fact upsets you severely.
This is not just "one point". This is THE point. You claimed exhaust emissions equipment could not modified. Literally THE piece of exhaust emissions equipment (the cat) CAN be modified. This simply and completely renders your entire assertion wrong.
>>"no no I dojt care about anything else just this"
Your assertions that other types of modifications are illegal is irrelevant. You didn't say "it's illegal to remove the cat" or "some exhaust/emissions modifications are illegal". You said it was illegal to modify the exhaust emissions equipment, period. This is wrong and you were proven to be an idiot talking about shit he has no idea about.
You literally walked into this thread, read the OP article, then started asserting shit based on the bullshit you read in that article from a "green" website. literally your entire argument initially hinged on shit you read in the OP's article until you were called out and had to dig deeper into the issue to try and weasel out of your bullshit assertions.
You are hilariously pathetic.
>Enjoy not being to turbo your mustangs or camaros or civics or 240sx shit heaps :^)
I don't care about any of those cars. Nice to see all you've got are these desperate logical fallacies.
>>14564957
>> you're upset at the fact America isn't the modification haven you all make it out to be
What's funny is despite all your irrelevant bullshit about exhaust laws. America is home to some of the quickest, fastest, and most powerful street legal cars in the world.
So what exactly are you even arguing?
>>14565040
> wall of text hammering on about the same shit
Holy fuck dude you literally have autism
Modifying your exhaust system is illegal.
And before you start carrying on about high flow cats.. entirely irrelevant because performing a repair isn't a modification, and the cat can only be replaced under specific circumstances (it's no longer operating properly).
Or are you a dumb ass ricer who thinks performing maintenance is SIKK MAWDZ BRUH?
>>14565064
Those ls powered drag cars running twin turbo systems aren't legal for street use according to the epa
Try again
>>14565087
>I'm wrong and cant admit it so you have autism.
LEL
>Modifying your exhaust system is illegal.
And again you say the same completley incorrect bullshit. Een after admitting that you can modify your exhaust system.
Your cognitive dissonance is palpable.
>swapping out for high flow cats aren't mods
HAHAHAHA
Now you're just getting desperate.
>>14565087
No. And I have to agree with him. You're that stupid shitposter who thinks he is winning arguments by being obtuse and stupid.
>>14565101
> yeah bro I replaced my dirty old panel filter with a fully hectic oiled k&n "high performance" panel filter, it's a mad modification I recommend it
Literally you kid
>>14565098
and yet there they are, all driving around, on the street, legally. Not a cop in sight to haul them off to jail or "confinscate" their car as you earlier claimed.
It appears the U.S. actually IS the mecca of automotive aftermarket that you are so desperately trying to argue that it isn't.
https://youtu.be/YGbPD5uvOEo
>>14565114
>literally trying to argue welding in a high flow exhaust with high flow cat is equivalent to dropping in an air filter.
hahahah so desperate it hurts.
>>14564783
>Enjoy not being able to modify the length or diameter of your exhaust, throw the cat away, go with a dual pipe system over a single, install a turbo charger on an engine that didn't come with one from factory, and countless other popular modifications that are deemed illegal in the hundreds upon Hundreds of pages of epa laws and regulations
But I've done all those things. my toyota didn't even have a cat when I bought it. or much of an exhaust at all, really. nobody gave a shit.
what the fuck is this thread even about anymore? honestly, I got lost about halfway through.
>>14565108
There's no argument. Take it up with the epa if you feel they are wrong
>>14565123
> high flow exhaust
Meaning it's different length and diameter to factory exhaust? Illegal
And Like I said a cat can only be replaced if it's no longer operating properly, using an aftermarket replacement instead of oem isn't a modification. Sorry you stupid ricer
>>14565135
>Meaning it's different length and diameter to factory exhaust? Illegal
Citation needed. AGAIN
HAHAHAHA cognitive dissonance.
inb4 no actual citation
>>14565132
Your car Is illegal
I do illegal things all the time as well but it doesn't make it legal because I don't get caught. Your mentality is childish
>>14565141
The links have been posted in this thread several times and the exact passages quoted
Crying "citation needed" when you've already been shown is a sign of pure desperation brought about from a combination of denial and anger. It is poor form to act like that and more suited to the lgbt boards of reddit. Thank you.
>>14565135
>America isn't the haven of automotive aftermarket Americans think it is
>look at the unenforceable and irrelevant laws on the books!
>ignore all the 1000-2000hp+ street cars roaming around legally!
>those don't count!
>the irrelevant laws do though!
>the highly modified world class and world leading street cars in America don't mean America has a huge car culture!
>it's the irrelevant laws guys!
Literally you.
>>14565157
You still have not posted a reputable link and a quote from that link that states modifying the length and diameter of exhaust pipe is out of compliance with any U.S. laws.
You never posted anything to this effect in this thread
You have repeatedly made this claim absent any proof to back it up.
Your claims have no weight and carry no validity. You have been proven to be an imbecile multiple times in this thread and it is blatantly clear that you literally entered this thread knowing nothing about the subject and you based your entire assertion around the bullshit you read in the OP's link.
>>14565161
Sorry friend but a twin turbo ls engine isn't street legal according to the epa
It is not up to your local dmv to enforce the epas rules. Just like how it's possible to register imported cars younger than 25 in Florida even though they are federally illegal
Stay mad America is literally Germany tier though
>>14565183
>guys trust me!
>the actual car culture and the street cars driving around doesn't define american car culture!
>it's the irrelevant laws!
>trust me guys!
Literally you.
>>14565146
>don't get caught
caught breaking a law nobody's really enforcing?
can it really be called a law at that point?
>>14565175
http://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.epa.gov%2Fsites%2Fproduction%2Ffiles%2Fdocuments%2Fexhsysrepair.pdf
now I know reading compression is lacking with you, which is understandable as you are American and have a lower level of education in the English language than kids from third world Latin and European countries
But you'll have to try understand lad
>>14565202
Again, posting the link means absolutely nothing.
Quote the exact passage you claim proves what you are asserting.
>inb4 you cant.
>>14565212
> no no proving me with what i wanted isn't enough
Would you like me to come to your house with it printed out in a size 64 font with pictures drawn to help you understand?
>>14565216
>still cannot provide the actual citation backing up what he is claiming
Hilarious.
Your credibility is nill. If something in your link actually backed up your assertion you should have no issue quoting it. But no such quote exists and just as before, you are full of shit.
Fucking hilarious.
>>14565228
I am going to stab you in the face.
>>14565228
It's already been quoted several times by both myself and another poster in this thread
Please stop shit posting in an attempt to heal your anal pain tyvm
Stay mad it's illegal to perform any modification to your exhaust system
