Why do German cars have a reputation for being expensive to own and maintain?
Is it that they're inherently unreliable? Or, are the parts just expensive?
As someone who's only ever owned Japanese cars, I'm just trying to figure out what the source of most of these expenses is. Educate me.
>>14517840
In general they're more complex.
Electronic shocks vs normal shocks
FI vs NA
Now that more normal cars have these things the increased cost has become less of an issue.
>>14517840
pointless complexity
expensive parts
silly overengineering which doubles labor costs
not as reliable as people think germans are
the textbook example is the w220 merc
>>14517840
>Is it that they're inherently unreliable? Or, are the parts just expensive?
Both
>>14517870
>not as reliable as people think germans are
Germans aren't reliable, they're precise.
My German razor and pen are fine instruments of their respective crafts, but I wouldn't trust anything German with moving parts to not grenade when the Kraut space magic wears off.
German marques are usually where new technologies will debut before trickling down to the rest of the entire industry, then they're dumbed down and made or cost effective. The Germans are literally pioneers.
Remember when only the S-Class had anti-lock brakes?
any Honda seems to be just as good as any German car.
Hondas top trim levels are pretty nice cars. A BMW might be slightly nicer but is that slight improvement worth 30k more? No. The Honda is more than good enough. And the Honda has better feeling steering and brakes. The engines are good enough too. And they'll last longer.
Soon the marketing of the Germans pulls people in but they don't need it necessarily.
>>14517840
view of a reichfag: purchase is 90%
btw a 320i wagon is about 47000 euros in germany, no-frills!
reliability is a result of engineering, so first of all it depends on amount of tech
imagine a 4cyl and a 12 cyl motor, which one is more likely to break down ? how many parts have to fail until system is getting disabled ?
now think about fucking modern "demands", especially all the electrical engineering or tech for reducing fuel comsumption, all the amount of tech youre driving around with your car.
...so what IS a reliable car ?
>>14517840
Dealers and mechanics don't waste lube on customers' butts, and the aftermarket treats these cars like black boxes, making DIY support far shittier than it ever should be. Parts are usually no greater than 50% more expensive than comparable parts from other cars at their worst. It's paying for labor that gets you.
If you're brilliant, already have tools, and you aren't afraid to handle any job that comes along, you could keep one going on your own for cheap.
You'd better be good, though. German cars are good because they're fancy. They don't like when you let them go to hell. If something breaks, fix it. Do the maintenance, goddamn.
>>14517946
P.S.
Don't buy parts with the brand name on them. Those are marked up all to hell and back.
>>14517930
>two fucking screens
>still an army of buttons on the dash
why?
>>14517935
>...so what IS a reliable car ?
a Lexus
I own the most expensive to upkeep and the least reliable BMW ever and a 2004 E class Merc and they are awesome cars.
>>14517930
Idunno man... I'm not trashing Hondas, but I rode in my friend's Mercedes sedan once and it was ridiculous. Completely silent cabin, and literally couldn't feel a bump in the road. Is it worth it? I don't know, but I was certainly impressed.
>>14517980
The amount of money you spent on both, plus the amount if money on "maintenance" would probably equate to a newer, better car.
Why wouldn't you sell both then get a newer C-Class or 3-Series?
>>14517996
>newer 3-Series
>>14517928
>trickling down to the rest of the entire industry, then they're refined and made reliable and cost effective.
Fixd
>>14518010
So much truth.
>>14517996
3 series is just a tiny peasant tier car, have owned four 3 series bmw's, still kind of own one (bought my gf an e36) but youre right in a way and I actually am selling the merc soon.
The only reason to own a 3 series imho is the fun factor, and all the fun 3 series are really expensive here, the best I could get for the price of my cars is a pre facelift e90 330i.
>>14517973
Yeah, I'd probably go Lexus if I was in the market for a luxury car. Jap luxury is underrated.
>>14518019
New 3 series is pretty much the same size an old 5 series.
>>14518030
yeah and the e90 weighs as much as an e34. Decent cars, really like my cousins 330d msport. Still the interior is far from being as comfortable my E class. Not even talking about the e65
>>14518019
>3 series is just a tiny peasant tier car
BMW 3-Series is
>White Collar Drone: The Car
I'm literally just as impressed when I see someone drive by in an Accord.
>>14517930
While yes I agree the added expense of a German luxobarge car over a Honda is questionable for most normies.
I don't think you've ever driven a similar Era BMW or Merc vs a Honda, there isn't a comparison.
>>14517995
Yeah, except I'm driving a Lincoln towncar and feeling the same thing at $4k.
>>14518086
Yeah I don't look at regular newer 3 series as they are anything special at all. This is coming from a die hard BMW fan. A 335i with a loud exhaust does get my attention though
>>14518181
Honestly, a 1 or 2 series is more interesting to me than 3.
>>14518164
But you're still driving a cop car, trimmed-out to appeal to geezers and nignogs.
>>14518204
2 series are nice, hope to own an m235i or m2 in the next 5 years
>>14517930
>any Honda seems to be just as good as any German car.
kek how about no. and that interior is trash too m8.
Where does Volkswagen fit into all this?
>>14518147
I own a 3 series 330i so I know what I'm talking about. I enjoyed Acuras more than bmws. And I'm sure an accord is similar to a tl.
>>14518298
>base model
Kek
Your opinion is valid when you drive both an Acura RL to a S550. I can promise you the Mercedes is LEAGUES ahead in comfort.
What in the world would you guys expect in those dogshit-tier European automakers that had had serious trouble figuring out how to make even the simplest things such as power windows work properly for decades?
>>14517930
Almost stopped reading at
>any Honda seems to be just as good as any German car.
BMW 3-series is what entry level sedans should be like. For people who care what they drive but can't or don't want to justify spending the money for a 5-series or an E class, it's a good car.
I can never understand why anyone would buy a current model, average car/sedan, when they could own a 2-4 year old BMW, MB, or Audi for pretty much the same amount. The quality difference between your average Euro sedan and your shit-Honda is huge. Honestly, I think I'd rather take public transit than drive something that once had a new-value of less $60-80,000.
The Honda is not more than good enough, the brakes and steering do not feel nicer, they're smoother so that old Chinese women don't snap their neck when they depress the pedal, and the only reason that the Honda's engine may last longer is because it isn't being used like the BMW engine is meant to be used.
You're classing two vastly different types of vehicles together and saying the lesser is better. Sure, if I need amazing fuel economy for the car that I'll only take to the grocery store and to work everyday, I'll get a crappy little hatchback or a consumer-grade vehicle. But until I'm sick of going 300 km/h on the highway, having my ass grabbed and poked by my massage seat, and having my body hugged by my dynamic seats while I turn a corner at 100, I'll be sticking with my MB.
>>14518311
>330i
>base model
u wot
>>14518285
>Volkswagen
Is for people who wish they could afford a premium German car.
Golf GTI is basically a bargain Audi A3.
>>14517840
Lot of people I used to work with owned Mercs, couple with BMW's and for what its worth VW's
Majority of the fucking seems to come from the service departments that they 'need' to go to so the car stays in warranty. So they get fucked hard there, big money in the servicing costs.
But there's also a lot of the other shenanigans they get up to as well like only selling them premium tyres for $600 a corner, unnecessary bullshit with 'brand' fluids and fuck my life, I've even seen a xenon bulb stuck in one cost $200
Its laughable really, but the customer's eat that shit up and go back to their otherwise don't care, don't into cars lives. The big joke is that its "zee German engineering" but put together by monkeys in Africa, SE Asia and various other developing countries- so a whole generation of cars from about the early 90's, all through to the mid 00's where fucking terrible for reliability. They did put some effort into unfucking the quality control, but I dunno really how much better it is in reality.
As for the cars themselves, there's nothing really special about them in terms of innovation, aside from just being overly complicated and black-boxed to the point they really don't want anyone outside of a service centre to touch them.
That's fine by me, I wouldn't touch one.
>>14518362
3 series, retard. Stop trying to pretend it's something better.
>>14518352
>they're smoother so that old Chinese women don't snap their neck when they depress the pedal
I lol'd
>>14518352
Bread pls
>>14518384
I don't like you
>>14517930
>tfw top-trim Accord still isn't as nice as a 3-series
>>14517840
Used to chill with this guy who owned an M3 and worked on it himself. He was also a borderline-autistic engineering student and knew how to build/rebuild engines. Odds are, this isn't you, and you'll have to have some Bimmer tech molest your anus on a regular basis.
>>14518005
>not getting an E90
>>14518497
>not getting an N54
>>14518489
>engineering student
>knew how to rebuild engines
pick one
>>14517930
>any Honda seems to be just as good as any German car.
I'm a r8 weeaboo and even I think you're an idiot for saying that
>>14518645
It's certainly not common, but there are exceptions to the rule. Source: I'm an engineering student who has rebuilt multiple engines, and know one who has as well.
Disclaimer: I'm older than your average engineering student and have been into cars for years.
>>14518664
Well in my household my opinion wins.
>>14518683
fine...
>engineering student
>know how to rebuild engines
>asian
pick two
>>14518687
This isn't your household, bitch
>>14518709
Well I'm in my house so who the fuck are you to tell me any different
>>14518723
>the internet is in my house because I'm in my house
It's a series of tubes, nigga
>>14518645
Idunno, dude. He said he was in some kind of auto-engineering school. Haven't seen that weird fucker in years.
>>14518734
I'm not connected to tubes.
I'm in my house and in my house Honda is superior. You can't come into my house and disrespect me and my family and our viewpoints.
Honda has sold more cars than BMW and Mercedes combined. Checkmate, loser.
>>14518371
>Golf GTI is basically a bargain Audi A3
except no. they arent even made in the same body style in NA anymore.
>>14518762
>>14518762
>Honda has sold more cars than BMW and Mercedes combined
People who can afford luxury cars make up a smaller portion of the population.
>>14518762
BMW was the top selling luxury brand for the 10'th consecutive year in 2015.
>>14518779
BMW and Mercedes are mainstream and you know it. It's their fault they can't sell as many cars.
>>14518762
To moms who are looking for the cheapest and most boring way to transport their spawn around.
And then they sell the cars to Mexicans who butcher the exhaust and steal some fancy wheels to throw on.
>>14518779
Also, BMW and Mercedes have a higher lease-to-buy ratio than Honda. Many customers of luxury cars lease as opposed to buying.
>>14518789
You seem to have completely ignored my point. Luxury cars sell less because less people can afford them.
>>14518793
Yeah because they don't want to wind up with a piece of shit German car.
People WANT Hondas and buy them outright.
Checkmate again
>>14518808
Confirmed troll. Buh-bye.
>>14518815
How am I a troll when the truth wins. Most people can afford a BMW but they choose Honda. Hmm I wonder why.
And then you argue HURR well BMW cost more. Well sir they don't cost THAT much more. BMW failure again by not getting people to see the value in their cars over a Honda - oh right here's hardly more value
>>14518808
>People WANT Hondas and buy them outright.
Let's consider a hypothetical situation where a brand new Accord and 3 Series are the exact same price. Which one do you think will sell more? I rest my case...
>>14518825
Post a Honda that isn't boring.
>>14518825
>Most people can afford a BMW but they choose Honda
Completely false. Your idiocy is astounding.
>Friend became eurofag who thinks anything else is trash, bought a 2011 335i
>Within one year and less than 12,000 miles driven he had to replace the fuel pump once, it's gone into limp mode twice, and had to be towed twice.
>Last unscheduled repair, the fuel injectors suddenly went bad. Would've been a $1200 repair bill but only paid $300 because warranty
>Car is currently consuming a lot of oil, which he always shat on the Infiniti G's for
>Purchased CPO at $35k, if he were to sell it back it's only worth about $19k
If you happen to ignore ALL of this, it's probably one of my favorite cars to drive.
>>14518847
It isn't false. You know it's right and you're wrong because when someone on the internet is wrong the first thing they do is call the other person a troll to discredit them.
Not working on me. You're clearly a professional but you're fucking with a king.
>>14518863
Addendum: The cost of maintenance is what separates the poverty from those with actual money. I'm sure if the 335i cost as much to maintain as a G, that would become the new fuckboy car.
>>14518881
Look everyone. Screencap this. This man comes into my house and says My values are wrong and stupid. And I put him in his place.
He says k. I say have a nice life because I'm more sophisticated and not selfish
>>14518863
I know a guy who owned a 2010 335i from 0-80.000 miles. Literally no failures, the only times he visited the dealership was for mandatory warranty check ups and oil changes.
>>14518899
Have a nice life
>>14518903
Really? Is quality control THAT bad? I really want to like the germans brands, I really do.
>>14518864
I personally don't know a single person who would buy a brand new honda instead of a used BMW, Audi or Mercedes, and I know a few well-off people. I think all of the brand new jap cars in my area are just company cars.
>>14518911
I'm pretty sure 99% of the expensive failures for newer luxury cars are caused by ignorant owners that don't give a duck about basic maintenance or warranty inspections, which just quite often happen to be the wealthier people.
>>14518928
This I can understand. But to have so many problems with only 15,000 miles on the odometer initially? I still can't figure out why.
>>14518863
We've all got our anecdotes. I have service records on my 530i dating back 13 years and in its lifetime it's needed a radiator, water pump, fuel pump, front control arms, and a mass airflow sensor. Pretty fucking good, m8.
>>14518939
I have no idea why this is, actually, but I don't think it's confined to luxury cars. My Honda needed a new transmission after 25k miles.
>>14518908
Thank you. Enjoy your Honda Odyssey.
>>14518883
Repairs are not maintenance. Repairs mean it's badly designed and therefore junk because you can't reply on it.
>>14518961
Meanwhile my 2005 Camry has needed 4 oil changes, 2 air filters, and 2 sets of tires in 6 years.
>>14517840
>Is it that they're inherently unreliable?
yes
>the parts just expensive?
no
Source: I've owned six BMWs
>>14519026
Expensive relative to what? I'd assume part for part they cost more than say a ford or mazda.
>>14519003
Well in 1 year my car has needed nothing.
>>14519043
Not that much. It's not Bentley or even Porsche after all. You do realize that there are millions German cars around the world and they all need spare parts?
>>14519003
Since we're talking numbers... I've gotten road-head in my Civic four times. I think that's worth something.
>>14519003
My 2003 2.5 tdi Audi A4 needed 3 oil changes, some rear bushings and an leaky steering rack fixed, in 5 years. Sold the car 2 weeks ago with 180k miles
>>14518975
6 billion people on earth don't own a car so I will take the odyssey because I'm not a naive bigot like you.
>>14517840
In my experience German cars are engineered closer to the limit. Generalizing, this means some parts need replacing at more frequent intervals than their Japanese equivalents, but it also means other areas of the car are maximized like steering and suspension refinement.
>>14519107
>2003 2.5 tdi Audi A4 needed 3 oil changes, some rear bushings and an leaky steering rack fixed, in 5 years.
That's not as good as his Camry anon...
In 13 years my focus has only needed tires and oil changes. And brake pads and rotors. And new shoes for the rear drums. And a valve cover gasket.
THATS IT
>>14519127
Yep but it is a 3 year older car with quite a lot of miles on.
>>14519112
>6 billion people on earth don't own a car
>I'm not a naive bigot like you.
Confirmed SJW
>>14517935
Lexus
>>14519149
Oh and I used to own a 1999 E46 328ci with 240k miles, it had been crash damaged according to service history but all it needed was some new bushings on the rear, an AC fill up and some TLC as there was some rust on the previosly crash damaged fender and a worn drivers seat. I've also owned a 300k mile E36 323i which only needed attention to paint. So yeah German cars are pretty reliable.
2001 M3 coupe 6MT
New bumper cover $1,300
OEM fuel pump $396
Fuel filter and regulator were little over $100 for OEM parts.
Full brake kit. Blank rotors and Pagid pads. OEM hoses, sensors, front calipers $700
Full VANOS overhaul $800
Valve cover with all required gaskets $100
Cooling system kit $1,300 Price was for a Mishimoto radiator and everything else OEM. You could have gone OE everything for $800 or so.
New timing chain collar support screw that backet out and was causing a minor oil leak $3.44 (Had to drain top half of rad hoses and replace gaskets on top of water pump and water pipe)
New hood release cable $26
Each valve adjustment runs me about $150. New valve cover is the "big" ticket item here. Shim kits are under $50 for OE Wiseco.
Oil changes run roughly $70 depending on where I buy. I purchase 7L of Liquimoly 10w60 and a Mahle filter.
All prices DIY. The ONLY way to go with ANY car.
>>14519423
Let me guess, the cable rusted? I haven't fixed mine yet so I have to manually pull the cable from inside the hood to have the locks working right to prevent it from popping up. How is working on a VANOS?
>>14519423
I put about 800 miles a week on her.
My diff bushings need replaced. I think the clutch master cylinder OR slave cylinder is going bad. I sometimes feel a "pop" when I release the clutch. My 08 TSX does this too except every time. Trans and clutch are perfect in the M3. Will only cost about $150 to replace both in the car.
I have a few lights in the inside not on. Window button lights do not illuminate when the lights are on. Work perfectly though. Driver door doesn't show it's open on the cluster. Nothing that bothers me.
My car - having 108k on the odo and only seeing the track for 3 years prior to even registering for the road - is one of the most mechanically sound 15 year old cars on the road. I would put money on it. The motor is still very strong. I can clip 60 in under 4.5sec and the car is stock. Pulls just as hard until you let off the throttle. Again, clutch and trans are perfect. The S54 isn't prone to clutch and trans failures at all no matter how much they've been abused.
>>14518762
>owns a Honda
>you can't disrespect me and my family
Moog pls go lick human slime somewhere else
>>14519491
No. Where the end meets the plastic handle piece on the inside broke. I still pull mine manually too though I've had the cable for months now.
I haven't done the VANOS yet, but I already have parts on hand. It won't be difficult at all as long as you retime the engine correctly. How to position the cam hubs once you put them back on is a little confusing no matter where you look, but it's nothing that will prevent me from doing the full job myself.
>>14517840
If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
>>14519540
>tfw I live in an apartment complex and can't learn how to DIY with e46-san in my designated parking spot
>>14519634
Yeah I couldn't deal with that.
>>14518164
So luxurious
>>14519991
if it werent for that awful head unit, climate control and gauges, this interior would be actually pretty luxurious and comfy.
>EU for US
>Car manufacturer workers get way higher pay, but tax is drawn from their wage so in the end they have a somewhat high salary in their hands, then the parts are taxed and then they are sent through over the Atlantic which is expensive to USA, a country that have so low tax that you can't really call it that.
Car sells with less profit just so Americans CAN buy it.
>Uuuuuuh haou can it be so ekspensuve?
>US car for EU
>Cheap slavery workers have to ask for tip from the homeless because their boss takes 99% of the money so they can get rich.
>Car quality is decent but cheap because none pay tax on the salary or the parts, or not enough for us in the EU to recognize it as tax.
>Gets sent over to EU through over the Atlantic
>Magically get taxed to hell and back for no reason some cars become 2x - 3.5x more expensive than what they are sold in USA.
Fuel price is like 87% - 89% tax on top of the actual fuel price. It's not uncommon for fuel to be $7-8/gallon. When the fuel went to half the price the cost would drop like 6-9% on it's total price here depending on where you are in non-3rd-world-part of EU.
So no EU cars, ESPECIALLY in USA are not expensive.
>Why do German cars have a reputation for being expensive to own and maintain?
I found out yesterday :'(
>>14517840
I have an audi with audi care so no the maintenance isn't really an issue
>>14519003
You're either lying or you legitimately believed the "only needs oil changes lol" meme and you're seriously neglecting your vehicle.
Not that it matters, you drive a Camry. It breaking would probably benefit you.
>>14519003
>he hasn't done a transmission fluid flush
>he's never flushed the cooling system
>he's never done a brake fluid flush
>he's never replaced the cabin air filter
>>14521594
And the fuel filter. He should have done 3 of those by now.
It'll be fun when either his injectors get fucked or the fuel pump is so strained from pushing through 6 years of accumulated gunk that it dies in the middle of traffic.
>>14521611
>>14521594
Transmission filter too, assuming he has an automatic which is pretty much guaranteed. And his accessory drive belts are going to snap. Probably his timing belt too since he seems to think his car is some sort of magical perpetual motion machine that doesn't need maintenance.
>gook engineers actually thought it would be a good idea to build interference engines with timing belts
Either his parents own the car and they take care of all the maintenance so he doesn't pay it any mind or he's about to have a nice Toyota grenade sometime soon.
>>14518762
>Honda has sold more cars than BMW and Merc combined therefore its better
>Honda has also sold more cars than Lamborghini Ferrari and Maserati
>thus it must be better
top tier logic m8
Here are some examples from our experience with my wife's 2009 Mini Cooper S:
At 33K miles the MIL came on. Heads coked with carbon due to design flaw with direct injected engine / PCV. $800 to remove heads and walnut blast. Not covered under warranty. Warned it will happen every 3 years. Yup, at 59K miles it happened again. Another $800.
At 42K miles brake pads worn to limit. Rotors cannot be turned, only replaced per BMW. $2200 for all new pads and rotors with labor. Not covered under warranty - wear item.
Car has run-flat tires and no spare because of the goofy exhaust routing. Germans, expecially BMW, love these things. They ride rough, wear fast, and are expensive. First set wore out at 20K miles. Second set at 44K miles. Third set almost worn out at 65K miles. Cost for a set? $800 at Discount Tire.
Oil changes are a PITA and messy if you do it yourself. Dealer charge: $120 annually using synthetic.
Radio display is flaky and blanks out when hot/cold. Integrated into dash and difficult to replace. Cost estimate $1K to replace.
So at 65K miles we're into the car for over $6200 and the car may need a $1K item to be fully operational.
And this is a "cheap little car".
Don't ask me about my experiences with Audi!
You LEASE German cars, and dump them when the warranty expires.
>>14521962
>Not covered under warranty
You could have won a legal suit for that.
>>14521962
>Using run flats
>Letting someone charge you that much for a brake job.
Are you fucking retarded?
>>14520021
Autoworkers in the US are unionized. They make more than 60 dollars an hour in some cases.
>>14521911
Those are super cars that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars that only a small percentage of the population can afford. Top tier logic there, mate. Wow I can't believe you even brought that up.
>>14521962
>getting charged that much for a brake job
You should have just let your wife's son do it, I'm sure he's enough of a man to change some fucking brake pads you retard.
