Mechanics nightmares
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You are currently reading a thread in /o/ - Auto
You are currently reading a thread in /o/ - Auto
BMW plugs have always been a pain to replace but new ones are just insane. Had an '07 335ix come into the shop today for new plugs. As per standard with new cars there was a bunch of plastic shields that I needed to remove, it was annoying but not too bad. After getting all that off and then getting a coil out I came upon this bullshit, a 14mm 12 point spark plug. God, only BMW would decide to use a non-standard size spark plug. What is even worse is that the spark plug hole is sized so that a standard 3/8 drive deep socket won't fit into it. The socket needs to be a thin wall 14mm deep thin wall 12 point, good luck trying to find that. So I end up buying a cheap regular size socket and spending some time on a lathe to make it fit, because who in their right mind is going to pay ridiculous money to buy a special spark plug socket from BMW or Snap-On. So what should have been a quick 30 min-1 hour job has turned into a several hour ordeal.
Only the Germans could design such a stupid and overly complicated piece of junk and make such an easy job this hard and terrible.
>>13980397
Jesus christ.
I wonder what BMW charges for their specialty 12 point socket...
>>13980413
What does it matter? Bav auto sells it for less than $20. Op probably wasted that much in time spent making the other socket.
http://www.bavauto.com/fland.asp?part=KT20345&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=KT20345-335ISEDAN-2007-422834&gclid=Cj0KEQiAkIWzBRDK1ayo-Yjt38wBEiQAi7NnP-CMznRnvhW_L4LNWUy8zTbz9MXgVm0Gro1U6bdn7gUaAv_68P8HAQ
>>13980397
>Only the Germans could design such a stupid and overly complicated piece of junk
It's actually a smart way for them to make more money.
You're the stupid one for buying a BMW.
>>13980427
$15*
>>13980427
That's not too bad.
But dude working in a shop doesn't really have time to order and wait for the specialty socket just to change a spark plug. BMW could just use normal parts, ya know.
>>13980413
38.95
pt # 149213
And thanks OP Now I'm worried BMW pulled this shit on its older models.
I have an 03 e39, and so far its actually been easier to work on somewhat. At least I have a heads up
>>13980430
Wow you cant read. Look at the 2nd sentence again.
>>13980427
Probably took him 10 minutes to lathe it, I doubt he makes $120 an hour
Not to mention I doubt the customer is willing to wait days for shipping for a dumbass proprietary socket.
>>13980439
Now its a sercice that he can offer. Even with the tool he made now he can only make more money. I dont know why mechanics whine about stuff like this. It only keeps them in business.
>>13980440
Nah youre fine.
Glad I have a '97 M3. Well built car.
>>13980441
You edited the post.
>>13980493
Lurk moar
>>13980499
>moar
back to /b/
>>13980440
>'03 E39
From what I saw online they only started doing this in '07.
>>13980503
>implying
You're just butthurt you're an illiterate fucktard.
I will also add, complain as people will about AutoZone they were the only parts store around that has plugs for the car in stock. Napa, National, Advance, nothing.
And just on principal I would never go to the dealer to buy their special tool. Wouldn't give them the satisfaction of getting the money no matter what the price was compared to making it. At least something this simple.
>>13980499
Wat
>>13980517
fuck you man
>>13980555
Kek™
>>13980510
Great.
Honestly it hasn't been to bad to work, even with the shitty cooling system, it took less than a hour to pull the radiator and put it back in, I had more trouble with older American cars with seized hoses.
20/22R, simple ass engine but you have to remove the head to do a proper timing chain service. On a 2wd that involves disconnecting the steering center link, removing the crossmember, removing the oil pan, distributor and wiring, disconnecting a bunch of vacuum lines, the air pump/egr lines, exhaust manifold or downpipe, removing radiator and hoses, rocker arm and shaft assy, cam gear, cyl head, then timing cover.
>If you don't pull the head the timing cover to cyl head flange will mar the gasket and leak.
At least it's 20+ years old grimy rusty and corroded. Hardware will break as well
>>13980633
Working on a friend's Camry was similarly annoying. Fucking front fender that could be held by 4 bolts had like 20 bolts holding it on.
>>13980450
Because on flat rate you get paid for completing the job, not making tools
>>13980397
>BMW plugs have always been a pain to replace
kek
that's what you get for working on newer cars, faggot.
The E46 and prior BMWs I work on are easy as fuck.
>cars made in the past decade
>easy to work on
Good luck!
>>13980723
I'm not flat rate. I'm an independent shop and get paid by the hour. I'm not complaining about spending time to make a tool, that's part of the job sometimes. I'm complaining about how BMW took something stupidly simple that anybody should be able to do and made it stupidly complicated for really no reason.
>>13980853
They did the same thing with coolant lines, they are hard plastic and use O rings and clips for connectors. They always fail, meanwhile there are cars that are 50 - 60 years old with rubber hoses and hose clamps and 0 issues.
>>13980713
My sisters accord required you to pull the bumper and then the headlight assembly in order to change bulbs.
>>13980870
muh modular construction
muh ease of assembly
Modern cars are designed to go together as quickly and efficiently as possible on the line, ease of service and longevity aren't even on the charts anymore. They're built to be disposable.
>>13980870
But since the other parts of coolant system fail regularly, those clips and hoses make the job easier.
>>13980576
As tune ups go BMWs have been the 2 worst cars I've done. This car was one because of the special tools needed for no reason besides they wanted to. The other was an early 90's 7 series with a V12; 2 caps, 2 rotors, 14 wires of which several cross from one side of the engine to the other, and the plugs are on the outside of the V of the engine with only like 2 inches of room between the engine and side of the car for you to work in. Oh and the intake manifold comes up and out of the V to be in your way as well.
>>13980576
>>13981026
Engine bay looks like this. This is one of the hardest tuneup jobs anybody could have to do.
Oh look, another mechanic bitch fest.
>>13980482
>Well built car.
Nah
>>13980884
Barely. Certainly not enough to jusitify sacrificing the longevity of the parts.
What do you guys use for a labor guide? im gonna start doing some side jobs in my shop at home but don't know how to quote the jobs
>>13980397
i read this entire posting with scotty kilmers voice in my head.
>>13980397
I've needed to use turned down sockets to get plugs out.
Its the new cool trend for engine designers.
>>13980397
Are those the Platinum +4 plugs? Compared to regular coppers they made my E30 run like shit and fouled super quick.
>>13980397
hey its BMW trying to make you take it to the dealer. same as the non-removable bonnets on their cars.
Exhaust manifolds on a 4.6 exploder/mountainqueer.
F150 and super duty's are annoying enough, but lets give you even less space to get those broken studs out.
>>13980397
BMW doesn't make spark plugs. Contact Bosch with your concerns.
But, if you worked at an authorized BMW technical center you wouldn't have to deal with this problem as they receive all the specialized tools.
The good news OP is that now you will always have that tool for future e90s. Good on you!
#FlatRateProblems
The best tools are handmade ones.
I devised a few ways to use empty cardboard air filter boxes as serpentine belt retainers, and to protect A/C condensers while also holding a flashlight to make removing alternators easier.
Modified an E-clip installation tool to retain E clips by magnetizing it and wrapping it once with tape.
I've made some extra-long punches and awls from spent sway bar links
Made impromptu pipe-plug impact sockets by grinding grade 10 bolts square
Made hose clamp pliers from a pair of old linemans by grinding slits in the jaws
Specialty/custom trim removal tools by heating and bending body putty spatulas with a heat gun
>>13987679
BUt BMW went along with it and probably codeveloped it in a way with Bosch. And even if they didn't, they are the ones that designed the spark plug wells so you need a thin wall socket to get down there.
>>13981040
M70's were fucktarded though, Why build a V12 if you can't even make it a proper V12 with one engine management system, and I'm willing to bet they probably designed the engine to be worked on out of body.
Furthermore you can get more power from the m60, or hell even a boosted M30, so its better off buying a early 735i or a later 740i
The only good point about them is what mclaren did with theirs in the F1
>>13980427
>what does it matter?
Let me explain to you why it matters. Bmw could have used a normal 6 point just like every other car manufacturer to make it easier on the consumer to change their own spark plugs. Now if you want to do it, you need to PAY for a tool, WAIT for it to be delivered, then ONLY use it for one thing on one car ever. And why must you go through this? So that they can get more money. HURR DURR why does it matter? Wait until you see all the other special tools you'll need for every other piece of maintenance
>>13987593
I've found that, too - Super 4s made my R1150RS surge but the standard plugs with two earth electrodes ran normally and they also caused my Saab 9-5 to reduce boost and put the check engine light on because it was detecting knock on all four cylinders.
>>13990379
And on other engines they did. In this N54 (I'm assuming) there wasn't enough space for normal sparkplugs because of the direct injection. I have an N52 and it has normal sparkplugs. It was a tradeoff that was made during engine design, I doubt it that it was in any way intentional (to make money by not allowing customers to service it themselves).
>>13990416
>I doubt it that it was in any way intentional (to make money
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The only reason car companies try to do any stuff like this is to make more money. There's pretty much no reason to use torx, allen, or inverse torx bolts ever, and yet they are used extensively. They are fasteners invented to fix a problem that never existed and made so that you as a mechanic have to buy more tools.
As for the clearance in this engine for a sparkplug socket, there is more than enough space for BMW to have machined it bigger so a standard socket would have fit. They just didn't. It was done completely on purpose so that normal tools won't fit.
Would like to point out Nissan and mini have the same plugs. Honestly it's like why? But my boss bought the socket from strap on so its no big deal but if you don't know you're up shit creek. Many things are like that for us. If you don't know about it you're fucked, but the only way to know is to do it. Catch 22 really
>>13990441
Really torx is god tier, hated it when I started but it's really the best. If you have right size it'll almost never strip. You'll break the socket before you strip the bolt. Allen is fucking dogshit though, fuck that noise.
>>13990441
>There's pretty much no reason to use torx, allen, or inverse torx bolts ever,
Jesus you are an idiot.
Speaking of spark plugs, this was fun
>>13990441
>There's pretty much no reason to use torx, allen, or inverse torx bolts ever
Torx is a very good profile for transmitting torque. Way better than hexagon profiles.
Allen? Better when you have to deal with small room for tools.
They have all the reasons to do so. They would not use such screws if they didn't have to. After all they must buy the screws as well. If regular cheap hexagon bolts were sufficient they would use them everywhere.
>>13990491
We all know that bolts on a car rust. No matter where they are they will rust. I just have always found it stupid to have to try and clean rust out of a hole in the center of a bolt so you can then try to get a tool into it to get it out. And let's not forget that allen and torx bolts will strip and when they do its a bitch to get them out. And I have never seen a reason for inverse torx. Whenever dealing with that crap if it's in a difficult place I always try to replace them with a standard hex bolt.
>>13990581
>I replace fasteners on people's cars without permission because I don't like them and engineers are stupid.
Wow, you're impressively autistic. It's a wonder you conduct business. I'd beat the shit out of you if you did some shit like that to my car.
>>13990581
You don't gotta tell me about rust, I love in queerbec and some of the cars we see are fucking nasty. But legit, I almost never have that problem with torx. There's some rust in the hole, fucking hammer that bitch in. It's so rare that I see a torx head strip, especially larger sizes. Smaller ones, like 25 and under maybe, but large ones? I see way more 6 sided bolts and nuts strip. Of course it's because they're more common but still. Torx is god tier, I'll stand by that point. Allen is gay dogshit, external torx is fine, triple square is weird but the same principal as torx.
>>13990601
Not him but engineers are typically at best ignorant becuase 99% of the time they don't have wrench on the cars they design.
And if you get but bugerhurt becuase he... he.... he.... didn't put the right bolts back in!!!! then you should've done the job yourself.
>>13992122
>Not him but engineers are typically at best ignorant becuase 99% of the time they don't have wrench on the cars they design.
Yea, nah.
>then you should've done the job yourself.
I do. Mechanics are hacks and I don't trust them.
>>13990783
My main problem with external torx and 12 point is that there really is no need for them to exist. Hex bolts did the job perfectly fine since the beginning of cars and now for some reason in the past 10-15 years engineers decided that hex bolts were a problem that needed to be fixed. When in all reality hex does no different of a job than inverse torx or 12 point, and everybody already has tools to work with hex.
>>13980633
Are you sure you HAVE to? Suzuki paid something like 22 hours for chains on their v6 because of the front cover to oil pan overlap. I just cleaned and re siliconed the piece of pan flange that was disturbed and they NEVER leaked. It was a 6 hour job.
