This fucking thing is still going. Still see a lot on the road too. And built 100% in the USA. What the fuck happened?
GM didn't like that they made a better product
>tfw wrecked my sc2
Don't think we have the same motor, but I have a 05 Saturn Vue 4cyl/5spd-manual and love it. Only problem is the sunroof is a leaky sun of a bitch and the battery grounds have corroded.
>>13967574
The Vue uses a 2.2L L61 Ecotec. with a Getrag F23 5 speed. Same engine/trans combo I have in my Saturn Ion.
>>13967457
>What the fuck happened?
Infighting among GM's brands over Saturn's special treatment.
Saturn got their own headquarters. Saturn was considered, legally, a separate company. Saturn was allowed their own platform, engines, suspension, transmissions, and even their own factory. The rest of GM's divisions didn't get that. And the development of Saturn took 3 billion dollars from other projects.
Saturn was an experiment to tackle the imports. Said experiment came to a close in 1996. With the close of the successful Saturn experiment, there was a meeting with GM to discuss Saturn's future. Saturn customers were too loyal to just discontinue the brand, but GM was not happy with Saturn. Saturn's sales were cannibalistic, with 42% of Saturn owners having already owned a GM car. So with all of the North American GM divisions pissed at Saturn, Saturn found their funding slashed so they couldn't properly develop new products.
Enter Opel. Opel wasn't invested in the American market so didn't give 2 fucks what Saturn did there. So Saturn and Opel began collaborating. This was also the time that Holden was working with Buick to bring the Commodore stateside as the Roadmaster, so Holden wouldn't work with Saturn because of Buick.
And since then Saturn started putting out reskinned Opels.
And were successful at it. GM got pissed again. Saturn had help and was cannibalistic still. So when Saturns UAW contract came up for renewal in 2004, GM stepped in and rewrote the contract, forcing Saturn to be absorbed into GM starting with the 2005 model year. GM was all set to stick Saturn with crappy products (starting with the 2005 Saturn Relay).
Thien in 2006, Bob Lutz came back to GM. He was a Saturn fan and fought to get Saturn the Sky, the Aura, the second gen Vue, and the Astra.
1/2
>>13967792
2/2
Then came the 2009 bailouts. The government told GM that in order to get the money, Buick, GMC, Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer all had to die. Buick was popular in China so they survived. GMC always pulled a profit so they survived. Saab was sold to Spyker Automotive.
Saturn almost wasn't killed. Saturn was almost sold to Penske. Then GM learned Penske planned to import Korean built Renault-Samsung cars (reskinned/rebadged Nissan's) as Saturn's. Given GM's new stance to save Saturn's dignity, the deal got flushed down the toilet and Saturn was killed instead as a mercy killing.
Saturn still has a chance at coming back as Mary Barra has said GM will bring plastic cars back to market. GM still keeps up the Saturn and Pontiac websites, with live chat. I have no doubt both brands will make a comeback.
Dank you anon
>tfw no Saturn Sky Redline
>>13968015
I have the weirdest boner for Vue Redline
>>13968037
>Dat Honda V6
>>13967822
They need to bring Pontiac back as the performance orientated version of chevy.
And Saturn back like they were doing before killed it, using reskinned Opels.
GM wouldn't been in the mess it was had they used their better built euro models over here.
>>13967822
>(reskinned/rebadged Nissan's) as Saturn's.
Jesus Christ, where were you educated?
>>13968121
>implying the SM7 isn't just a reskinned Nissan maxima
>>13968141
Stupid question but.
Samsung has its own heavy industries division, why isn't it attempting to build its own cars?
>>13968153
laziness I guess
>>13968153
GE has a heavy industry division, why dont they build fleshlights
>>13968141
What? Did you mean to reply to me?
>>13968180
But GE isnt the one trying to break into the sex toy market.
>>13968180
>gas turbine powered fleshlight......
>>13968211
You're not Anonymous.
I am!
>>13968153
>>13968160
It costs a fortune to develop a car manufacturing capacity from scratch, and to design a product line; with the large number of established companies they'd have to compete with, it wouldn't be worth it... it would be cheaper to buy out an existing smaller company.
>>13968153
>>13968742
Samsung tried in the 90's, then the Asian Financial Crash happened. The debt the companies and South Korea had was so bad that the country had to bailed out by the IMF. Samsung's motors division was sold to Renault. This happened at the same time Hyundai bought Kia and GM bought Daewoo.
Renault Samsung are still around but only sold under that name in South Korea and a small number exported as Renaults.
Pic is their best selling model in 2013.
>>13967457
SATURN is a shit planet. Saturn is the roman god that ate his own sons to retain power. The Jewish star of david is really the symbol of saturn. Saturn is also called satan. Satanism is the worship of Saturn. Fuck saturn.
>>13968949
>The Jewish star of david is really the symbol of saturn.
No, That's Subaru.
![[Lolidan]_Moetan_-_02_[69BA11C4].mkv_snapshot_09.55_[2011.04.05_19.12.36].png](https://i.imgur.com/aInnXcW.png "[Lolidan]_Moetan_-_02_[69BA11C4].mkv_snapshot_09.55_[2011.04.05_19.12.36].png")
>>13967792
>>13967822
>GM makes Saturn as an import fighter experiment
>smashing success
>they celebrate it by getting mad that it worked and destroying the brand, learning nothing from it.
I mean, even as a GM fanboy, you gotta admit that GM does some really stupid shit. A lot.
That's because it's a detuned piece of shit.
Crown Vic motors last forever, but that's because they're given suffocating heads, unlike mustangs.
Where faggots blow them up all the time.
>>13969136
>I mean, even as a GM fanboy, you gotta admit that GM does some really stupid shit. A lot.
I admit it very often.
Just think of all the shit killed to protect the Corvette.
>>13967822
Pontiac will come back. They have no cool looking, affordable, "sporty" brand to sell to all the millennials like the new Dodge and Scion.
Also I was always under the impression the Saturn was supposed to be an even cheaper Chevy, like the bargain brand of GM. Had no idea they were supposed to be import fighters.
>>13969147
I think you're in the wrong thread buddy.
>>13969207
Yup. Saturn was the import fighter. They even invented a few manufacturing processes that are still in use today. For example, Saturn pioneered Lost Foam Casting for engines, a process Toyota has used since to this day. Saturn actually had the slowest moving assembly line in the industry to increase quality, and still kept up with demand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ_rj-juOHg
Saturn, starting in 1994, started hosting an event known as the "Homecoming" for Saturn owners all over the world, inviting Saturn owners to the factory in Spring Hill, Tennessee to see the cars get built along with a bunch of other activities. The events were popular among Saturn owners for the sole reason that Saturn had the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry, and the highest customer loyalty in the business.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeUfB7SVsvk
>>13969378
Wow that's really cool. I actually have some respect for Saturn now lol
Now what can you tell me about Oldsmobile, I'm too lazy too look it up and you sum up shit nicely
>>13969136
>Saturn brings euro chassis to America
>Sells tons of the fucking things
>GM kills it
>Uses Australian dogshit later on
>>13967457
out of all the 90s vehicles still on the road, i see the most saturns and hondas
saturns were built to take a beating. most the 90s hondas i see on the road are probably engine swapped but theyre still there
>>13969388
>Now what can you tell me about Oldsmobile
Quite a bit.
>I'm too lazy too look it up and you sum up shit nicely
Why thank you.
Oldsmobile was GM's technology division. Just about any new technology GM had usually showed up at Oldsmobile first. The conventional torque converter automatic transmission was invented at Oldsmobile and offered in the late 30's and early 40's under the name "Hydramatic". Hydramatic eventually became a separate division at GM that still makes all their automatic transmissions.
Oldsmobile had the world's first turbocharged production car (1962 F-85 Cutlass Jetfire. Had a turbocharged 215 cubic inch all aluminum Buick V8. The design to that V8 were later sold to Rover and became known as the Rover V8).
Oldsmobile made the world's first FWD V8 car, and GM's first FWD car (1966 Toronado)
Oldsmobile had numerous V8 engine projects that were killed to protect the Corvette, like a DOHC 32 valve variant of their 455 big block V8 which made over 700 HP N/A. And they experimented with turbos as well at the time and those were canceled too.
By-the mid-80's, Oldsmobile was selling talking cars that instead of flashing a light at you to tell you there was a problem would have a computerized voice tell you what was wrong via the stereo.
In 1988, Oldsmobile released another technological advancement, the Quad 4 engine. The DOHC 16 valve 2.3L Quad 4 engine was GM's first in-house designed DOHC engine, and the first engine to combat Honda's early Vtec cars on the same N/A playing field. The power output of the Quad 4 engines were often compared to V8 engines of the time. There were even homologation racing variants of the engine. A 250 HP turbo Quad 4 variant was also killed to protect the Corvette.
1/2
>>13969378
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeUfB7SVsvk [Embed]
man, saturn homecoming truly was the place to be
>>13969483
2/2
Oldsmobile fell into dire times in the 90's with flailing sales despite still making advancements. Eventually in 1998, Olds came up with a plan to bring them back into relevancy. Oldsmobile planned to make hot-rodding available at the dealership, similar to how Scion did years later. They planned to launch a performance division called OSV (Oldsmobile Specialty Vehicles). They started by drumming up excitement for the new project with a number of OSV concept cars.
There was a red Alero OSV concept with a supercharged variant of the 2.4L Quad 4 engine (said supercharger kit eventually became available through GM Performance Parts for the Chevrolet Cavalier).
There was a green Alero OSV concept with a 3.5L DOHC Shortstar V6, which was green lit for production as a proper high performance trim level (it was green lit just 2 weeks before GM announced they were killing Oldsmobile)
There was an red Intrigue OSV concept (pictured) with a supercharged version of the 3.5L Shortstar V6. The 3.5L Shortstar was aimed to replace the GM 3800 V6 in everything. The engine was Oldsmobile's project so when GM killed Oldsmobile, that engine went with it.
There was a green Intrigue OSV concept (also green lit for production) that featured a 4.0L Northstar V8 from the Oldsmobile Aurora.
There was even an Silhouette OSV minivan concept powered by the Shortstar.
There was also an Intrigue 442 concept which had a production-ready Intrigue stuffed full of a 4.6L Cadillac Northstar V8. 442 in that case stood for 4 camshafts, 4 valves per cylinder, and dual exhaust.
With the killing of Oldsmobile, all those drool-worthy projects were killed as well.
>>13969525
Did you get laid there? It's not like it was fucking woodstock
>>13969579
It was an automotive woodstock. People were actually married there. How much you wanna bet someone got laid there in the back of a Saturn SW wagon?
>>13969579
What if he did, anon? He does own a station wagon after all. You don't know his life.
>>13969594
>>13969604
>2 god awful ugly bastards too ugly for amateur porn getting sweaty in the back of a SW
>>13969483
>>13969546
n a related note, the entire reason Oldsmobile's logo was a rocket was because Oldsmobile's engineers thought of themselves as automotive scientists.
Pic related. To promote the Quad 4 engine in 1988, Oldsmobile showed off the fully functional Aerotech concept.. The Aerotech was powered by a 2.0L turbocharged Quad 4 making 800 HP. The concept car set quite a few land speed records including a closed course record for 253 MPH in 1988. 17 years before the Bugatti Veyron. And they did it with 12 less cylinders, 400 less horsepower, and 3 less turbochargers.
>>13969618
>production car
>>13969626
It was a concept and I even stated that you fucking retard
>>13969195
>all the shit Oldsmobile made over the yearsthat was either shut down or unable to be used in their own cars because MUH CORVETTE
>>13969617
you're missing out
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHX0HEVS6lk
>>13969629
>comparing a concept to a production car
Even better, I know you're gay but holy shit
>>13969652
Are you a nigger?
Apparently you can't read.
>>13969652
the concept was to promote the capabilities of the Quad 4 to the hot rod community. It was a "Hey, we just made this new engine and look what you can do with it if you dump money into it!"
>>13969618
>the entire reason Oldsmobile's logo was a rocket was because Oldsmobile's engineers thought of themselves as automotive scientists.
I thought the logo was designed after the Rocket V8s that had been a mainstay of their cars since the 40's?
>>13969618
Three fewer.
Heh.
>>13969662
and the engine was named because Oldsmobile thought themselves the rocket scientists of the automotive world.
>>13969483
>>13969546
>>13969594
>>13969618
>>13969629
>>13969659
Holy shit thanks. I literally knew nothing about Olds until now.
How much better was the 3.5 compared to the 3800?
>>13969671
I learn new things every day.
>>13969671
was rocket science even a thing in the 40's?
>>13969682
Yeah, the guy who designed the V2 rocket and shit was a scientist
>>13969682
>was rocket science even a thing in the 40's?
>>13969662
>>13969671
>dat Rocket 88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lVXVZ5ATwg
>>13969682
>was rocket science even a thing in the 40's?
>>13969673
The 3.5L is just as reliable as the 3800, and, like the 3800, it was also based off a V8 engine. The Northstar to be precise (bet the "Shortstar" nickname makes sense now, huh?). Because the 3.5L project never completely got off the ground, it has no aftermarket support unlike the 3800. It's interesting to think about what ifs, but the fact remains the Shortstar V6 family never came to proper fruition. It was only used in 2 cars, the 1999-2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue, and the 1999-2002 Oldsmobile Aurora. The Shortstar was actually on Ward's 10 best engines list in 1999 and 2000.
Pic is the supercharged 3.5L from the red Intrigue OSV concept.
>>13969682
It was a new field of engineering just starting at the time
>>13969719
That's cool, probably makes it a bit expensive to maintain I suppose. And the lack of aftermarket support sucks.
If you feel like continuing storytime...Pontiac? I'm enjoying this
>>13969698
Man, I love those old Olds-es.
I know most of the GM cars of that era share like 70% of the bodywork, but the 88 and friends just make my dick rock hard. Never could figure out why the Chevvies (especially the tri-fives) became so iconic even today instead.
![1951%20GM%20Ad-02[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/o4mrx1V.jpg "1951%20GM%20Ad-02[1].jpg")
>>13969747
Early 50's best 50's.
>>13967822
Tfw Holden is kill
Tfw you won't graduate from college, save for two years, and pick up an Australian built SS or relaunch Pontiac
Tfw it's going to be FWD V6/I4 made in china
>Mr Jacoby also defended the mooted switch to front-wheel-drive.
>"I'm coming from a front-wheel drive group – the VW-Audi Group – with this company we don't believe there is a true disadvantage between a front-wheel drive … towards a rear-wheel drive."
>Holden said it is prepared for a possible backlash but believes it has made the right move.
>"We know the decision to retain or retire the Commodore nameplate will stir passionate responses among Holden fans and customers," said Holden sales director Peter Keley.
At least Ford is retiring the Falcon name. I feel for you Australians, your malaise era begins Y2k17.
How did that quote go, "When Chevy says you can't build something cool, you go to Pontiac or Olds instead?" Something like that.
>>13969739
>If you feel like continuing storytime...Pontiac?
My knowledge on Pontiac history is spotty as Pontiac has been through many different mindsets.
Pontiac was created as a stop gap division in the 1920's to split the price difference between Chevrolet and the higher end Oakland Motor Cars division of GM. In the 1930's, Pontiac absorbed Oakland into itself, and by the 1940's, Pontiac was the only surviving of the 3 created stopgap brands.
In the 1960's, Pontiac wanted a proper sports car like the Corvette, so they created 2 prototypes in 1964 at John DeLorean's insistence. The car was to be known as the Pontiac Banshee, named after an Irish pixie whose scream means death is coming. The 2 Banshee prototypes were powered by 2 different engines. One was powered by Pontiacs SOHC Sprint I6 engine making around 225 HP. The I6 prototype (pictured) is currently owned by a car dealership in Connecticut. The other one was powered by a Pontiac V8 engine. The Banshee was canceled because it would've been lighter than the Chevrolet Corvette, but more powerful, making it faster. John DeLorean fought valiantly to save the Banshee project and as a compromise, Pontiac got their own variant of Chevrolet's car from Project Panther, which became the Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Firebird.
1/2
If i'm looking for a cheap/reliable car, would a saturn be a good choice; or should i go honda?
also, how's the gas mileage on them?
>>13969483
What engine is this in the pic?
Best thread I've seen in awhile. You've gotta think that GM integrated some of the tech from Olds into the new Cadillac's, IE dual overhead cams and turbochargers.
![W43CARS-2-640x472[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ynQDKsU.jpg "W43CARS-2-640x472[1].jpg")
>>13969824
Read the image- the Olds W43, a preposterous DOHC V8 they built using the big block 455 as a base that put out 700hp+ at the crank. They were presumably up and ready to stuff the fucker into the next year's Cutlass until drunk daddy GM started bitching.
>>13969836
I see. Its confusing because of the angle, it almost looks like a flat-8, which would really blow my mind.
>>13969807
2/2
Pontiac realized they wouldn't get a proper sports car unless they snuck it under GM's nose. Enter the P-car program, started in the 1970's. Pontiac saw the gas crunch of the 1970's as another chance to get a sports car in their line up. The pitched to GM a mid-engined 2 seater 4 cylinder economy car that just happened to be fun to drive.
The P-car program was launched into production in 1984 as the Pontiac Fiero. The Fiero, initially, had stuck to the plans of a mid-engines economy car. The Fiero used the front suspension from a Chevrolet Chevette, and the rear suspension was taken from the front end of a GM A-body. The Space-frame chassis and plastic polymer body panels were also used as a testbed for the concept for Saturn later on.
Pontiac took all the profits from the Fiero and put it into R&D, making massive leaps and bounds in refining the car over each model year. In 1986, the car got a high performance variant of GM's multi-port fuel injected 2.8L pushrod V6 engine.
1987 debuted new fastback styling options for the Fiero.
1988 debuted an all new suspension that made it a proper sports car.
By 1988, GM had caught on to what Pontiac had done and the Fiero was killed after the 1988 model year. GM stated cost reasons but it was more than that. Pontiac made massive profit on the Fiero but because all the profit got dumped in R&D, GM's beancounters thought they were losing money hand over fist on the car. The other problem was Pontiac had a second generation Fiero ready for production and set to debut in 1990. The 1990 Fiero would've dropped the pushrod engines completely. the 2.5L Iron Duke 4 banger was to be replaced by a 180 HP high output Oldsmobile 2.3L Quad 4. The 2.8L V6 was to be replaced with a 280 HP 3.2L DOHC variant of the 2.8L V6. The 3.2L engine eventually met production in FWD cars only as a 3.4L with 210 HP. The V6 powered 1990 Fiero prototypes, due to the weight difference, were destroying the Corvettes on GM's own track.
![hemi-455[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/TEZhhlw.jpg "hemi-455[1].jpg")
>>13969847
Nope, big block V8. I think there's one surviving prototype and the remnants of a second one that was cannibalized to build the first? Could be wrong, though.
>>13969824
>You've gotta think that GM integrated some of the tech from Olds into the new Cadillac's
>new
That went on for decades and decades- lots of stuff was either directly developed by Olds or used in their cars as a test-bed so if it turned out to be unreliable or the public didn't like it, it wouldn't impact the other brands, ranging from the Hydramatic auto tranny to the Quadrajet carb to turbos to etc etc etc.
>>13969876
This stuff is just fascinating to me, why would GM neuter all their brands so horribly?
Is there a neat story to GMC at all? Or is that a relatively new brand with a boring story
>>13969818
Saturn is a great choice, but so is Honda. The Honda will have better aftermarket
![corvette-logo-clip-art-9c8zr0ty[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/eeniYOe.jpg "corvette-logo-clip-art-9c8zr0ty[1].jpg")
>>13969903
>why would GM neuter all their brands so horribly?
>>13969876
You're the fucken guy. I'd honestly read your summaries all day.
>>13969876
why does gm have to ruin everything good.
>>13969903
GMC was a brand started in the 20's/30's IIRC to produce buses and other commercial vehicles. They didn't start making consumer vehicles until the 1950's, and since the 1960's, they've just been Chevy truck's/CUV's/SUV's with GMC badging.
Relatively boring story.
The only thing interesting from GMC was a recent concept car based on the Sonic released in 2010 that was reportedly green lit for production and then killed off just months later.
Meet the GMC Granite concept. There was a hatchback concept and a ute-style pickup truck variant. Both were FWD and powered by the new 1.4L Turbo 4 banger.
>>13969917
To throw away so much profit, and their own brands forming their own unique identities. To be able to appeal to every demographic and hit every price range with huge advancements in tech...Throwing all that away for a car that only old fucks can afford and will drive twice a year during their retirement....
What the fuck GM
>>13969936
Since the bailout, the "protect the Corvette" rule has been tossed out the window. It's a real shame that it took the bailout to kill that rule.
>>13969932
The only ones left are really Chevy and Buick, but those are the favorites of GM so there isn't a real sad tale to tell is there?
>>13969949
I felt Lutz kinda started it now that you mention it. He got alot of really great cars through in his short time. The G8 and GTO are what I really know but you mentioned some other stuff that Saturn got through (the Sky/Solstice?).
>>13969917
GM has been holding the Corvette back for five generations.If they gave the Corvette an actual budget to build the car they wanted maybe the other brands could have built their cars too.
>>13969931
>>13969917
Seriously, the thing to remember through all of this is that to GM, the Corvette has always been the bottom line, the end of the line and the cutting line. Nothing can beat the 'vette in their eyes, no imports, no other American iron, and especially not something from one of their own marquees that the eggheads in the lab cooked up when they were supposed to be slaving away making new tech for GM to put in their flagship car.
'course, it's not just the 'vette, either- there's always been talk of Pontiac having to nerf the Firebird T/As so they wouldn't blow the fucking doors off the same year's Camaros, but I dunno much about the F-body twins myself so someone else will have to back that up.
>>13969951
Chevy got everything they wanted. The only thing from Buick that was canceled was in 1996. Buick tried to work out a rule to import the Holden Commodore sedan and wagon as the 1997+ Buick Roadmaster, but the project fell through.
>>13969968
>Buick tried to work out a rule to
Buick tried to work out a DEAL. holy shit. fucking typos.
>>13969966
>>13969968
You guys are awesome, I don't really have anything else because there isn't anything else lol.
If you want to add some more, I'd like to hear some more about Pontiac and Oldsmobile and their crazy shit and failed projects
![GMC+Granite+CPU+11[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/lQeNA23.jpg "GMC+Granite+CPU+11[1].jpg")
>>13969932
>There was a hatchback concept and a ute-style pickup truck variant.
My brain says I don't want this but my dick says yes, yes I do.
>reading and posting in this thread
>I Can't Drive 55 comes on the radio
>>13969951
There's also Cadillac. And Cadillac even had a car or 2 killed to protect the Corvette.
In 2002, Cadillac announced the new Art and Science design them t try to bring them back to relevancy. This same attitude led to cars like the Cadillac CTS-V, but there were 2 cars part of the Art and Science project that were killed to protect the Corvette.
Car 1:
Meet the Cadillac Cien concept. This was a Mid-engined supercar meant to slot above the Corvette in GM's performance hierarchy. The concept car was powered by a custom V12 variant of Cadillac's Northstar V8. They did consider putting it into production but ultimately killed it to protect the Corvette.
>>13969903
It's like you haven't been reading, every single time they killed a project it was cause of Muh Corvette.
>>13970019
Car #2:
Meet the Cadillac SIXTEEN concept. This was meant to hark back to the V16 cars Cadillac was famous for in the 1930's, and to compete with the recently (at the time) revived Maybach brand.
The SIXTEEN concept was an ultra luxury coupe with over the top decadence. It was also powered by a 1,000+ HP V16 engine.
It was green lit for production before being canceled in 2007.
>>13969932
looks like chevy orlando with some pre-production lipstick
>>13969652
No one ever liked you anon
>>13970050
except the Orlando is on the Delta platform like the Chevy Cobalt while the Granite was based on the Chevy Sonic's Gamma 2 platform.
>>13970056
Y-yeah, w-well t-thats l-like y-your o-opinion a-anon
>>13970019
GM always considers building a mid-engine car and then cancels it.
>cannibalized good brands
>killed anything remotely better than the corvette
>make shitheaded decisions
>dragged kicking and screaming outta the 70's into 21st century by foreign imports
>goes bankrupt refusing get their heads out their asses
>gets bailed with tax money and continues to be noncompetitive
Why do we keep enabling this shit company to exist again?
>>13970078
>GM always considers building a mid-engine car
>>13968107
>what gm should do:
chevy- corvette and camaro, working class trucks/suvs/vans
gmc- upscaled trucks/suvs/vans (no change)
cadillac- upupscaled trucks/suvs/performance barges (no change)
saturn- boring econoshitboxes and crossovers, BUT they get their hopped up redline versions to compete with imports for the low income boy racer/tuner (like the cobalt and cobalt ss for example)
pontiac- high performance cars that arent the corvette or camaro, like the chevy ss (basically to be the srt of gm)
>>13969992
Other fun facts about Oldsmobile I dunno if Recaros mentioned:
Olds had the first automotive assembly line, which made the Olds Curved Dash, the first mass-produced auto. People remember Ford for having the first MOVING assembly line.
Olds was the fourth-oldest car manufacturer in the world, and the oldest American one period, when GM decided to off it.
Olds created what a number of people consider the first muscle car with the introduction of the Rocket V8 in '49; going with what >>13969847 asked, many engines of the time were inline six or eight cylinders, until Olds said no, look guys, split the bitch in half, angle it at 90 degrees around the middle, and sell it on the cheap so all those soldiers that got home from WWII a few years ago with money to spend and technical know-how to use can have fun tuning it how they want.
Olds made the first American-manufactured FWD vehicle in many years, and the first FWD V8 one period with the Toronado (which I think Recs mentioned). What he didn't mention is that they designed this ridiculous 18-foot landbarge with a 455 jammed in the front, pop-up headlights, and whitewall tires, took it to Pike's Peak, and set a new course record. Because Oldsmobile.
Olds had a hilarious ad campaign in the 70's involving Dr. Olds, a guy in a lab coat and his motley crew of various ne'er-do-wells named after characteristics of a car. The next decade or so, they instead decided to market their cars as "Not your father's Oldsmobile," which lost sales because to most people reading it, their father's Oldsmobiles were pretty fucking cool cars.
Olds is the leading result for "brands that make anon's dick hard," and studies show that even the most weeaboo of shitposters has to admit that having a design philosophy that pretty much boiled down to "stick a massive V8 in the bastard, then make daddy GM cry bitch tears while you stick your Hurst shift ball up his girlfriend's pooper" is worthy of support from WAT Racing Development.
>>13970101
Hey man, want to elaborate on the XLR? I get that
>muh vette
is GM's baby, so why did they package this thing up and sell to boomers? Did the low volume help? The use of the C5 platform versus the C6? Did it not cannibalize, because it seems like the economy in 05 and the Denalislut craze would eat the Corvette alive.
>>13970101
Left overs from the C4. Only made because they convinced GM it was a parts bin economy car. They were afraid of the second gen Fiero outrunning the Corvette, but didn't want to give the Corvette team any budget besides making the C5 a rebodied C4. And then the canceled the Corvette all together.
>>13970056
Why am I so gassy?
>>13970164
>>13970151
The XLR didn't cannibalize for a few reasons.
1: It was meant to compete with the Mercedes Benz SL roadster.
2: it was hardtop convertible only s it was much heavier than the Corvette. The body was also steel as opposed to fiberglass on the Corvette. It is a V6 chassis.
3: Most importantly, it didn't use the Corvette's engines. The XLR used Northstar V8s, and because of the big weight of the XLR, it was always slower than the Corvette.
>>13970179
>It is a V6 chassis
C6.
fucking typo
>>13970179
Interesting. It surprises me to this day that GM would green light something like it though.
>>13968957
No that's the Pleiades
Bump for an epic thread.
>>13970099
The world is full of incompetent people, they have to be employed somewhere. Think of GM as the /pol/ of the auto industry.
>>13969546
>There was a red Alero OSV concept with a supercharged variant of the 2.4L Quad 4 engine (said supercharger kit eventually became available through GM Performance Parts for the Chevrolet Cavalier).
I'm gonna assume that's the same supercharger kit that the tripfag KD had on his 250 HP Chevy Cavalier, right?
>>13972786
correct
>>13967457
Saturn Strong
Plastic Shitbox general? Plastic Shitbox general
>>13972736
But anon if that was the case GM would at least nake logical decisions
>>13970204
You have to remember GM's previous SL competitor was the Cadillac Allante, which was FWD< failed and is only remembers because it was absurdly expensive to make (a side-effect of having the bodies assembled in Italy, and then flown to America on custom 747's for final assembly), and the fact that the very last model year, it was available with the Cadillac Northstar V8, the first car to be offered with the engine.
>this whole thread
I feel even worse for wrecking my shitbox now
>>13973363
You're a terrible person.
>>13973363
>California
You should feel bad based on this alone
>>13973363
>all this plastic
>steel hood.
wtf?
>>13973671
Heat, stupid.
>>13973675
No it actually is steel. The only steel body panels on most Saturns are the roof, trunk, and hood.
That's how my Saturn Ion is.
>>13973685
>No it actually is steel.
Where the fuck did I say it was not?
>>13967457
Same thing that always happens with anything related to GM.
so in short all the good cars in America get killed off because of combination of the public's violent rejection of anything new and the mediocre crap pedallers getting jealous and resorting subterfuge and sabotage instead of stepping their game up
kind of sad really
>>13973831
The old president of Honda had a saying:
"When new regulations are passed we hire more engineers, GM hires more lawyers"
>>13973377
I'm sorry
>>13973403
Stay mad that we have fun meets
>>13969483
You should be a journalist or some shit.
You present things in a coherent yet engaging fasion
>>13974378
>we have fun at meets
I'd do whatever to make me feel better for living in a literal shithole state too
>>13974402
believe me, I've contemplated it. I had to learn to dumb things down and make it sound interesting when talking cars to most of my family.
>>13973086
>/pol/ takes over GM
>Bean counters gassed
>Board of directors fed to the forge
>All american supply chain
>TRUMP trim introduced to all vehicles
>All brands operate according to their income
>???
>Golden era of GM comes back and Ford becomes old-hyundai but somehow worse and with cheaper water based paints. Chrysler just kills self only RAM trucks and JEEP marquees survive
Anyone want to add to this?
>>13969378
>>13969195
>>13967822
>>13967792
Are you a fucking GM historian? Seriously though very cool and interesting.
>>13974572
>Dodge survives, only to sell giant RWD barges to niggers
>GM brings Pontiac and Saturn back and become amazingly successful because of their fans.
>Nissan and Renault are run out of business
>Toyota discovers how to make fun cars again
>Honda brings a proper CRX back and a new Integra.
>Volkswagen dies in their own gas chamber filled with diesel exhaust emissions, taking every brand they own down with it.
>>13974572
>/int/ takes over Ford and declares it the whitest car brand
>FCA goes bankrupt once again proving Chrysler and their buyers are cursed
>GM brings back Oldsmobile and Saturn, not Pontiac and the reason given is to spit in Australia's eye
>Nissan splits off from Renault, scraps any current/future plans of CVTs and makes an attractive design language again
>Honda gets its balls back and designs a the X series of 4 cyl turbo iVTEC engines that have a 8500 RPM redline across the board
>Toyota still dominates
>>13973685
>>13973743
Yeah I think he was trying to say:
"How could it be plastic, the heat would melt it, therefore, yes, it is metal."
>>13969719
That engine looks great
>>13974618
I would only buy Saturn if they made an updated S-series that weight the same or less as the original and doesn't have all the chinky bullshit new cars have. which won't happen.
![[a-s]_initial_d_4th_stage_-_14_-_sad_lonely_driver__rs2_[770E873B].mkv_snapshot_06.34_[2015.11.17_20.31.45].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/uMBwyb3.jpg "[a-s]_initial_d_4th_stage_-_14_-_sad_lonely_driver__rs2_[770E873B].mkv_snapshot_06.34_[2015.11.17_20.31.45].jpg")
>>13972736
Did someone say Saturn?
I love these little bastards.
Here, have a pic of my old DD in sled weather
>tfw based suicide third door
Why don't more cars use them?
>>13976867
Mine has 1 on each side
>>13968153
Samsung does have it's own cars for Korean market. Am I missing the point here?
>>13977008
>Am I missing the point here?
Yes. They're all rebadged or rekinned Renaults and Nissans
>>13976953
So based
Why Gm why did you have to kill them off
>>13976867
I'm going to assume because rollover safety standards. Here's mine.. Look at all that support
>>13978120
side impact and rollover standar have nothing to do with it.
My Ion is the 4 door coupe as seen here:
>>13976953
The coupe actually performed better than the sedan in government side-impact crash tests (4 stars fr the coupe vs 3 stars for the sedan)
Safety has nothing to do with it.
You have to remember. Saturn had to engineer shit differently because of those plastic body panels. On most cars, the body panels are structural to the car and help absorb energy in a crash. The plastic body panels don't do that. They just shatter in an accident, as seen here:
>>13973363
So with both the S-series and the Ion, Saturn had to engineer it so all the strength is in the chassis itself that the body panels bolt to.
>>13969876
My first car was an 87 gt fiero... i will forever love that little thing
talk about panty dropper in high school
>just put your book bag here
>pops hood
>is that Ferrari?
>>13968153
Hyundai has a virtual monopoly in Korea.
It would be like GE trying to build a car if Ford, GM and Chrysler were one company.
Does anyone have that image with a bunch of s-series that says "/o/'s winter car, race track car, beater car, etc"
>>13978381
Well, TIL. Have another pic
>>13979324
I know the pic you're referring to, but I don't have it
>>13979453
Thanks for the pic. GM had to engineer the Pontiac Fiero and Chevrolet Corvette similarly.
>>13978472
39% is no where near a virtual monopoly... but k
>>13979698
Hyundai has its hands in Kia, so 33+39= 72% of Korean market.
GM has about 17-19 % Toyota 15%, and Ford 13-14% in the US Market. Those three have 45-48% in the LARGEST automarket.
But in Korea, just ONE company is running on 40 percent, plus it owns 30 percent of the company that has 33 percent of the market. When it says 10% imported cars, that means Toyota, Honda, and whatever other non-Korean cars you want.
Yeah, Hyundai has a monopoly in Korea. They aren't as stupid as we like to think
>>13979765
Hyundai owns 33% of Kia, not all of Kia. If Hyundai owned all of Kia, I doubt Kia would repeatedly do better in reliability studies than Hyundai.
>>13979850
Hyundai is Kia's defacto owner. it bought 51% of the company after it went bankrupt in 1997
it has since divested some of those shares but it remains the largest individual shareholder.
most Kia and Hyundai are identical mechanically
>>13979928
>most Kia and Hyundai are identical mechanically
That's totally why Kia is more reliable.
>>13979944
>19 GMC
>21 Chevrolet
now think about your previous statement
>>13969618
Why did GM kill the Fiero?
And while we're at it, tell me about Pontiac
>>13979973
>Why did GM kill the Fiero?
>And while we're at it, tell me about Pontiac
Went over this topic before.
see:
>>13969807
>>13969876
>>13979765
>Toyota, Honda
The South Korean import business is nearly 0% Japanese. There are issues of nationalism and rivalry, but most South Koreas just get a Hyundai if they want a "standard" commute car. Most of that 10% are luxury cars for people that can afford the huge anti-competition tariff. Mostly German cars to be precise. I heard the tariff loosened up though a few years back.
I never saw a Japanese car during my 6 years in Korea. NEVER.
>>13980053
I saw Japanese cars, Gallopers and Terracans.
>>13979997
Can you also shed light on where Chrysler went wrong?
TELL ME ABOUT PONTIAC BASED TRIPFAG
>>13980678
see:
>>13979997
>>13980422
Chrysler was once known for innovating. A sparkling example of this is the 1934 Chrysler Airflow. It was aerodynamic for the time and the way weight was distributed on it (all weight located between the axles) made it quite high tech for the time. It flopped. No one liked the styling. After that, conservatism set in at Chrysler to avoid another such failure.
The next time Chrysler innovated was in the 1950's. In the early 1950's, they introduced a Hemi V8 engine under the name "Firedome" to combat the Rocket V8 Oldsmobiles.Then in 1955, Virgil Exner's styling trend, "The Forward Look" came into Vogue. Forward look cars were a revolt against the conservatism that had set in. The cars were longer, lower, wider, more stylish, and more advanced than any other car on the market, especially with the torsion bar front suspension. But too much of the cars was new and untested. By 1960, Chryslers reputation was in tatters due to torsion bars snapping and bodies rusting.
Christine herself was one of the Forward Look cars, advertised with the slogan "Suddenly it's 1960!"
1/?
>>13980741
2/?
After the crash of the Forward look cars, conservatism once again set in at Chrysler, afraid of innovating again. From 1960 until the late 1970s, Chrysler was run into the ground by a series of incompetent CEO's, STUPID marketing decisions that left them nowhere to go, and virtually no product to offer the customer by the late 70's.
Chrysler's saving grace was when the father of the Ford Mustang, Lee Iaccoca, was fired from Ford due to the clashing of his personality against Henry Ford II. Iaccoca was immediately offered the CEO position at Chrysler, only to find the company in shambles, with no money to develop new product.
So Iaccoca went to the federal government in 1979 for a bailout. Through sheer force of will, Chrysler got their bailout. Part of the bailout terms required the lowering of salaries of UAW workers, which was met with mixed reviews.In 1980, Chrysler unveiled the fruits of their labor with bailout money, the Chrysler K-car. With its FWD architecture, the K-cars were just the breath of fresh air Chrysler needed to survive. The K-cars sold. And sold, and sold, and sold and sold. The K-car, and all its derivatives (in particularly the minivans), saved Chrysler.
>>13980741
>Christine herself was one of the Forward Look cars, advertised with the slogan "Suddenly it's 1960!"
Wasn't Christine a '58? Only reason I remember is most manufacturers started doing quad headlights for the 1958 model year, while Plymouth and a few others started in '57.
>>13980792
3/?
By 1985, Iaccoca was touted as a hero for saving Chrysler. Many said he was the man who could run for president, win, and clean up the country. And he let the press go to his head. Iaccoca started making stupid decisions. In 1987, with the K-car profits, Iaccoca started buying other companies, including Lamborghini and AMC (particularly for the profitable Jeep brand). Absorbing all of AMC taxed Chrysler heavily, draining most of their capital. And a failed deal with Maserati left Chrysler with a wildly expensive FWD convertible that looked like any other Chrysler. Up until now, the new Chrysler cars has been endlessly reliable. Many owners complained about their Chrysler products not having enough power (despite most cars having a turbocharged 4 banger available). So Chrysler started using a 3.0L Mitsubishi 6G72 V6 in alot of their cars as an option. The V6 made as much power as the turbos, but was much harder to service and perpetually unreliable. But they sold. Customers just wanted to brag about having more cylinders.
Chrysler's reliability, largely due to the Mitsubishi V6, tumbled. Chrysler was in financial trouble again.
>>13980831
4/?
And the K-car was called upon to save Chrysler again. And it did. The K-car derivatives sold, and sold. By 1991, Chrysler had recovered enough to have commission Lotus (then owned by GM) design a DOHC 16V cylinder head for the 2.2L K-car 4 bangers.
Things started getting better in 1993 when Chrysler launched their first all new FWD car since the K-car was originally introduced, the LH car. The LH cars used a new innovative cab-forward design, which allowed the car to retain the exterior dimensions of a mid-size car, but the interior space of a big full-size car. The Cab-forward LH cars were essentially a production version of the 1988 Lamborghini Portofino concept car. The LH cars were bulletproof, and reliable.
In 1995, Chrysler replaced the K-car-derived Dodge Shadow and Plymouth Sundance with the equally reliable Dodge and Plymouth Neon. The cars were advertised for their extremely friendly face, but Chrysler also set their sights on SCCA racing, and soon the Neons were dominating their classes. Nissan, Toyota, and Honda actually tried to get the Neon banned from its class it was so successful. By the mid-1990's, Chrysler was the most profitable of the big 3 automakers. But trouble was on the horizon.
>>13969378
>Slowed Saturn productions lines to increase quality
>still dogshit-tier shitheaps
5/5
In 1991, due to his careless spending leading Chrysler to financial trouble again, Lee Iaccoca was forced to step down. There were 2 men equally qualified to replace him. Bob Lutz and a man named Bob Eaton. Lutz was the one who SHOULD'VE been chosen, but at the time. Lutz and Iaccoca has a massive disagreement over development of the LH cars and the Viper. So yes-man Eaton was appointed CEO instead.
Eaton was a spineless businessman who just went forward with the plans Iaccoca had set forth.
In 1998 though, Mercedes stepped in. What was said to be an alliance was eventually revealed to be a hostile takeover. Mercedes ruined Chrysler's product quality, sabotaged their reliability, and constantly had Chrysler parts made by the lowest bidder until Chrysler was no longer profitable.
In 2007, Mercedes dumped Chrysler like the drained corpse of a vampires victim.
Chrysler has since been trying to find themselves again, and it seems FCA is the one doing it right. With FCA, the future actually does look bright.
>>13980831
How bad was AMC for the record? Did the Pacer and Gremlin really kill the company?
>>13981327
They created some good stuff like their V8s and some bad stuff like the 258 I6. Average car company.
>>13981327
The Gremlin didn't kill AMC.
The Pacer almost did, though there are reasons it was and wasn't AMCs fault.
The Pacer was originally designed to used a rotary engine. A rotary engine that was going to be supplied by General Motors. When GM canceled their wankel rotary engine program, citing problems getting the fucker to meet emissions and fuel economy targets (problems which Mazda has trouble with to this day). AMC suddenly went "OH SHIT! We designed this entire car around that engine and there's too much money involved in this project to just cancel it! SHIT SHIT SHIT! JUST MODIFY IT TO FIT OUR INLINE 6 IN! QUICK!
And so the Pacer went on sale with a heavy inefficient engine it wasn't designed for. The Pacer initially sold extremely well. To the point AMC couldn't meet demand. Had they just taken their time building them to their normal high quality standards, things would've been fine. But the promise of a best seller was too enticing. AMC hired more workers and ramped up production to try to meet demand.
Then demand tanked after the first model year. Every one who wanted a Pacer had bought one and AMC had shot themselves in the foot with it. No matter what they did, they couldnt bring back the demand for it and AMC almost died, had Renault not stepped in.
Nissan is currently in the position AMC was in when Renault took over AMC in the 80's.
>>13980868
Why is the Neon seen as a shitty car in hindsight though if it did so well?
>>13981637
because people bought automatic versions.The Neons used an archaic 3 speed automatic that was troublesome at best.
The manuals, as per usual, were bulletproof. Talk to someone who had a manual and they'll generally heap praise on the car.
awesome thread! Great information, and the two saturn videos made me tear up for my old SC2....
I'm sorry I made you spin a bearing... T_T
>this fucking thread
>>13981633
what AMC should have done was modify the original 6 and taken out 2 cylinders. yes a 4 cylinder.
what could you do now? haul out the 6 cylinder and replace with the jeep 4 cylinder rinning gear. so economy goes up and or mitsubishi (still in the family, mitsubishi bought chrysler in the 80s) 4G63 2 litre turbo.
>>13981734
>mitsubishi (still in the family, mitsubishi bought chrysler in the 80s)
Mitsubishi and Chrysler had an alliance but neither company actually owned the other, ever.
>>13981762
it bought the australian arm of chrysler.
>>13981691
I can post more Saturn videos if you guys want.
>>13981778
and Mitsubishi engines wouldn't swap in.
Besides. The Pacer was killed long before Chrysler stepped in.
>>13981790
what i meant was buy a pacer and put a 4 cylinder or a rotary engine like they planned....
>>13981807
meh. Too much work for too little gain.
Why did GM kill the F-body? Was it really just bad sales and pressure from competition?
>>13982082
falling sales of sports cars period. The Monte Carlo had just been redesigned, so it was either kill the F-body, or kill the Corvette.
What almost killed nissan before renault stepped in.
This thread has been a good read thanks stolenbrideseats
>>13982089
How come ford didn't kill the Mustang if sports cars sales were down?
>>13982177
Here ya go! :D
1991 SL2 test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFAIzeeh1ic
1992 Compact coupe test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2z5VDCtZfg
1996 SW2 test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AQckwz4Qec
1997 SC2 test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hae91KSp9IY
2000 SC2 3 door test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T3Y02xMfpE
2000 L-series test (the first of Opel products to hit America. A reskinned Opel Vectra B)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8QC57zqlpM
2002 Vue test drive 1 (Car and Driver):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gps4lShtBiI
2002 Vue test drive 2 (autoweek):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0dDG56Q5w8
Saturn tribute: I made this ages ago to pay tribute to Saturn. The people I showed the video to IRL actually cried while watching it.
https://vimeo.com/74813266
>>13982152
If I recall, there was supposed to be a front drive replacement for it, but it never went though... I forget what car it was supposed to be though....
>>13982082
There was a rumor around 02-03 that GM killed it because the 1LE was almost as fast as the C5 around their test track. Fbodfather confirmed this was mostly true. So why buy a C5 when a Camaro is 9/10 the car for half the price? Mustang was outselling both fbody twins by a huge amount and GM hates performance cars for some reason. Corvette faced three cancellations and was only saved because the engineers ignored orders and continued building them.
>>13982189
>. I forget what car it was supposed to be though....
Ford Probe
>>13982189
The Capri was talked about replacing it during the fox body period...
>>13982188
Motorweek is so fucking awesome.
>>13982188
97 <3<3... Wow. inflation was, and is still, a bitch
And that music video is strangely heart touching. And tears happened again. goddamn you
>>13982202
>>13982218
thanks!
Anyone AutoX these? being doing it for a year and its a blast- just be mindfull of wheel bearings
>>13982235
>And that music video is strangely heart touching. And tears happened again. goddamn you
Glad you enjoyed it and that it gave you feels.
My father was never a fan of Saturn and almost never shows emotion and even he cried watching the thing.
To cheer you up, here's a Top Gear USA tribute I did for shits and giggles. I like to think I am a master of manipulating emotions.
https://vimeo.com/108895050
>>13967457
There used to be a dude from Arizona that bought one of those Saturns for like $1100, shitwelded a junkyard turbo to it and a jurryrigged boost controller and had it running high 14's for a couple of months before it lost a ring and junked the head. Last I heard he was replacing the fried head for a DOHC one and started touched 12's.
>>13979324
Also requesting this image.
>>13982188
>Saturn tribute: I made this ages ago to pay tribute to Saturn. The people I showed the video to IRL actually cried while watching it.
>https://vimeo.com/74813266
>>13969876
Any more about Pontiac based Recaro's? Maybe their later years?
>>13982726
According to Bob Lutz, when the government killed Pontiac, GM had Pontiac working on an all new line up of all RWD cars. There was to be the Pontiac G8 (Holden Commodore), Pontiac G8 ST (Holden Commodore Ute), Pontiac G8 SW (Holden Commodore wagon, Pontiac Solstice, Pontiac G6 (new Alpha chassis based mid-size family sedan, and a number of other even smaller bastards based n the Alpha Chassis. Pontiac was also working on their own Zeta chassis coupe to be a sister to the Camaro. It was going to be released as the new GTO.
But Pontiac is dead and gone, so we'll never know what could've been.
>>13982188
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2z5VDCtZfg
God I love watching these old shitbox compros.
>>13982754
>Pontiac was also working on their own Zeta chassis coupe to be a sister to the Camaro. It was going to be released as the new GTO
Not as a new Firebird? Weird, but I guess I could have dug it.
>>13983016
The Firebird, by all accounts, was going to stay dead
This was one of the proposed designs for the Zeta GTO
If your engine isn't older than you, and still running, you basically don't know shit about cars.
>>13982754
Naww the old Camaro is the new Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO, GM thought it better suited chevy and chevy needed a car to compete in that range.
>>13983051
Still no idea how Chevy managed to take this car and later decide "nah screw that lets make a shitty sucked in body for it"
Was such a pretty car.
>>13970019
This fucking thing was an untouchable monster in Gran Turismo 4
>>13970044
Also noteworthy, this thing got like 19 mpg I think I read somewhere.
>>13968153
Samsung
Renault
Motors
Side profile of my current DD, just rolled to 76,000 miles... Had a sedan but it burned an exhaust valve at only 141k but I couldn't be bothered doing head work
>>13974572
I'm guessing they would go into disarray once they started arguing over which corvettes were 'real' corvettes and which weren't.
>>13972786
He made me feel proud to own a Cavalier.
>>13981697
Mike Brewer?
>>13982202
What about the Ford EXP?
>>13988007
The EXP was just an Escort Coupe meant to compete with the Honda Civic CRX. It was never intended to replace the Mustang
>>13970099
>Tfw the bailout cost us Pontiac, and any future of the Firebird/Trans Am series.
My feels.
>>13988039
When Mustang loyalists got wind that Ford was planning to drop their beloved pony car in favor of a Japanese-derived front-wheel drive car, criticism quickly mounted against it. The current Mustang's sales began to rise and the future of the rear-wheel drive Mustang was no longer questioned.
>>13988271
I know all of that. But the car was was going to become the FWD Mustang was released, as the Ford Probe.
On a related note, at the same time Ford contemplated making the Mustang FWD, GM contemplated making the F-body twins FWD. after the debacle with the Mustang fans, GM abandoned the project and focused on a new RWD F-body generation. Pic related. one of the FWD styling bucks.
>>13988300
and one of the FWD F-body prototypes.
>grow up in the 90's
>interested in cars as a kid
>learn about stuff from my dad
>he tells me that domestic cars are shit, japanese imports are more effecient and reliable
>have a general distaste for GM and Chrysler, bit of a soft spot for Ford
>this thread
>realize all the GM brands were actually great companies full of smart people who just wanted to make good cars, but were held back by shitty management and dogma
>countless amazing cars were killed off to protect shitty Corvettes
>now all those companies are dead
It seems like every creative industry has this problem. Management and economics getting in the way of talented people making things that are good. Video games, movies, technology, fucking Magic: The Gathering for god's sake. It's disheartening. I want it to end.
>>13968015
Ahem...loving mine!!!
>>13988480
Truer words have never been typed dude. I hate the Corvette.
Why did this thing happen?
>>13969136
>I know this fucking feel
>>13989140
>Aztek
>no aztec warrior wrap
weak
>>13969682
>was rocket science even a thing in the 40's?
>>13980053
Why don't South Koreans like tiny kei cars like the nips do? I know they don't have the same tax regulations, but I would expect similarly-sized cars would be welcomed in SK because so much of it is urbanized and the cost of ownership is so high.
>>13969682
>was rocket science even a thing in the 40's?
>>13989264
>>13989216
>>13969692
>>13969706
I don't get it.
>>13990082
Primitive rockets were one of the original Chinese uses for gunpowder. They're way older than the 1940s, and "rocket science" like NASA does has existed since at least the end of the 19th Century. For the most part, this is pop-culture tier knowledge (Mulan, October Sky, The Right Stuff, every History Channel documentary on Nazi superweapons), which means that guy is retarded.
>>13980831
Another thing to note here was that Chrysler had amazing shit going on in R&D at the time that never made it. Imagine a Shelby designed, italian powered AWD coupe that could've been
>>13980935
In 1998, Mercedes stepped in to drain Chrysler's coffers, and in return, Chrysler taught Mercedes the wonders of beancounting.
But alas, their love was not to last...
Seriously, fuck Daimler-Chrysler.
>>13980831
It's interesting to note that Ford followed almost the same path a decade later under Jacques Nasser when they set out buying almost everything that wasn't moving rather than spending on R&D and better materials for Ford products. The buying spree, and subsequent billions spent on fixing the acquisitions, directly led to the poor quality of 2000's Fords and nearly bankrupted the company by 2007. Now it's played off as Ford being prescient about the 2008 recession but the reality was they had no choice but to sell out all but the core business and hock everything else if they were going to survive even without the recession.
>>13990082
Are you 14 or something jesus fuck
>>13991737
Just doesn't seem that funny.
>>13968153
Because EPA and government safety regulations.
Heavy equipment is far less intricate compared to a passenger car. Not to mention higher profit margins ($20k car vs. $200K excavator)
I'll drive mine until don't know when.
Can I nominate this thread for "Most informative thread, W/O Bullshit of the Year"?
>>13994227
No, it's nomination could hurt the chances of the Corvette thread we're planning
>>13994367
We all know that thread will be completely ruined by Alphonse.
Abandon all hope.
>>13967792
SOMEONE LAYMAN THIS OUT
IM OLD AND I DONT GET WHAT HE MEANS BY SATURN BEING A CANNIBALISTIC PRODUCT
THANK YOU ANONS IM 84 AND I TAKE A LONG TIME TO TYPE
PLS NO DIE THREAD
>>13994405
It means that 42% of the people who actually bought Saturns would've most likely bought a GM car anyways so Saturn stole sales from other GM devisions
>>13994405
Cannibalistic means that it competed with other GM cars for the same customers and stole sales.
>>13988528
Don't hate the Corvette. Hate GM.
>>13989140
Sometimes when something has been corrupted, that corruption needs to manifest itself physically for them to realize how far they've fallen. The Aztek happened because GM let it happen, and because they needed it to.
>>13969876
10/10 thread.
Now drooling over the thought of a Fiero with a Quad4
>>13992762
Gen 3 sedans definitely look better dark
>>13969917
Why is the Corvette so important to GM?
>>13967457
fucking GM
>exhaust on front of engine
>wrap exhaust around the engine
>take oil filter off
>oil spills onto exhaust
fucking GM
>>13967457
>Tfw use a Saturn SC-2 as my DD when I can't ride my motorcycle
>Paid a grand, total steal. Purrs like a kitten, nothing wrong with it, really.
>Just want a new radio, touch up the nicks and scratches in the paint, new front bumper (lolsag) and that's it.
I'll sell it down the road, but until I do, I like it. And the single suicide door is cool.
>>13997358
It is supposed to represent the best that GM has to offer, but many higher ups at GM have been trying to get the Corvette cancelled since the 70s. At the same time nothing is allowed to be faster than the Corvette. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense and just ends up hurting every car.
>>13991947
>>13990082
