Would you rather deal with oversteer, or understeer?
Over
>>13925828
Well much depends on the situation.
In my limited driving experience understeer in my opinion is more dangerous but i think gives you more feedback on when it's going to happen.
Oversteer is somewhat a bit more manageable but to me, there's little feedback... it's like more, it begins to oversteer and from there you control it, if you can.
Anyway, Oversteer is better. Understeer usually means crashing the front.
>>13925828
>under~
Dealt with both, over~ is too much for me IRL.
Both are easily controlled, but oversteer serves a purpose understeer is Just a hassle
I can lift off or squeeze gas a bit more to get some angle and tighten my line, depending. Understeer fucks my line and I dojt like heading into incoming traffic
>>13925828
ive had worse experiences with oversteer, but that's in a fwd car. going around narrow corner at pretty high speed and the car oversteered around it, which in short wheelbase car is pretty bad.
in the wet though understeer is just as bad... because theres not much you can do. in dry weather understeer only really bad with crap tires for my car
I'd rather not do either, as grip driving is faster than drifting.
>>13926012
>grip driving
>>13925842
Oversteer is not preferable to understeer, you can coerce oversteer, but oversteer like the viper is complete shit go to a race track and take some lessons
Understeer is safer and can be solved (if possible) by the most instinctive reaction anyone has when faced with a sudden danger while driving: slamming the brakes.
Also, when an impact is unavoidable, an understeering car will most likely impact on the front, where crumple zones are more effective and will cause less damage to the occupants.
Oversteer, on the other hand, requires a certain degree of skill to counteract and the same instinctive reaction stated above will actually make it worse in some situations.
Also, an oversteering car will most likely impact from the sides, where there is almost no buffer between the occupants and the obstacle.
Personally, I would prefer understeer, because I never had the misfortune of dealing with oversteer and, despite knowing what one should theoretically do when faced with unwanted oversteering, I am pretty sure I wouldn't be able to go against my first instinct of slamming the brakes.
>>13926213
Trust me, you pretty much crank the wheel on instinct. The trick is not to turn too much.
>>13925828
Anyone who says understeer is a kekold
>>13926213
Why would slamming the brakes remedy understeer? That loads the front even more and causes worse understeer
>>13925828
I prefer oversteer
understeer is counter intuitive
>>13926226
Because if my high school physics memory is helping me right, friction depends also on the amount of force that pushes two objects together.
So, by loading the front wheels, you are increasing the friction between them and the road and you are potentially giving them enough grip to make the car turn again.
>>13925828
controlled oversteer > controlled understeer > uncontrolled understeer > uncontrolled oversteer
>>13926226
Lern2 physics
It's basically pressing the car down on the front wheels.
>>13926213
When it doubt, go flat out
>>13926012
How's the repair bill on the R32?
>>13925828
Understeer, it's safer.
Also easier to manage just let off the gas.
>>13926353
Yep this is why you see some cars "snap" as the car gets a little sideways and the driver countersteers while lifting off, or braking. The weight shifts to the front and grips launching the car in that direction.
I've done it a couple of times in a mini when I was learning too race, it feels really weird.
>>13925828
Oversteer.
>>13926012
Fuck off Takeshi
Oversteer because you can just not turn the steering wheel as much. Understeer you have to turn the steering wheel even more which can only get worse and potentially even flip your car.
Loose is fast. FWD babies will NEVER understand this.
Oversteer.
>>13926353
>>13926530
FWD understeers on exit and mid corner. You don't trail brake on exit or mid. So your solution doesn't work. FWD is inherently shit.
>>13926619
You are not supposed to react to understeer by turning the wheel more, it just makes it worse.
When understeer happens, you load the front wheels by braking and turn less so you have a bigger chance of getting your grip back.
>>13926888
Yeah? And what if you're understeering because the tires are overloaded?
>>13926670
I don't think we are just talking about racing.
Anyway, understeer happens because the front wheels lose grip, the only way to recover some grip is by loading them either by going easier on the accelerator or by braking (and by reducing the steering angle), regardless of the fact that you are racing or not.
If you are racing, you can set up the car so it doesn't understeer, but you don't just keep pushing like a madman if understeer happens, you lift your right foot and deal with the fact that you have a shit setup that makes your car lose front grip and lose time.
Mind blowing fact: Even RWD cars understeer.
>>13926907
There is no such thing as understeer because of too much load. You are confusing that with wheel lock, maybe?
It is either too little load or too much wheel angle.
>>13926915
there's a lot wrong with your post.
for one, reducing steering and throttle unloads the tire it doesn't load it. using the brakes loads them just as much as throttle and steering. it's simple physics really. a tire's friction threshold is split between all forces acting on it. using the brakes when you are exit pushing is wrong and a common mistake by beginners that puts them into the guard rail when the situation was savable by just not using the brakes.
FWD cars are even more wonky because on low grip surfaces using more throttle will help rotate the car (see rally)
turning the wheel straight and using the brakes is a final and last ditch effort to reduce damage when hitting something is imminent.
if you can't get it to turn in, then trail braking can help, but only until you reach the threshold of the tire. which will be at or just before the apex of a corner. after that, if you're going too fast you're fucked and all you can do is let off the throttle (if you're on a high grip surface). no amount of tricks are going to save it at that point save ripping the ebrake and going full throttle rally mode.
understeer is an inherent problem of fwd cars that cannot be remedied with setup due to all forces acting on the same 2 tires among other things like weight distribution and transfer. can fwd be fast? absolutely. but they still are and will always be held back by their drive configuration.
>>13926923
>There is no such thing as understeer because of too much load
By your logic there is no such thing as oversteer because of too much load. But we know that's false. It's called ripping a skid.
>>13927006
But that doesn't happen because of the load, it happens because the drivetrain is delivering too much torque for the tires to handle.
If you were to increase the load, tires would spin later, if you were to decrease it, tires would spin easier. There is no debate on this. Load increases friction (I.e: grip). Period.
The only way to cause understeering while loading the front tires is by making them lock, which, again, will happen later the more you load the tires.
>>13926995
>reducing steering and throttle unloads the tire it doesn't load it.
Are we both talking about front tires?
>using the brakes when you are exit pushing is wrong and a common mistake by beginners that puts them into the guard rail when the situation was savable by just not using the brakes.
Braking or releasing the accelerator both load the front tires, of course different situations call for different actions. A light understeer can be simply solved by slightly reducing the acceleration, a massive understeer may be solved by slamming the brakes. I don't understand your point here.
>(see rally)
Nobody was talking about rallying or low grip surfaces.
>turning the wheel straight and using the brakes is a final and last ditch effort to reduce damage when hitting something is imminent.
Exactly, turning straight means you are reducing the tire's slip angle to recover some grip and allow the car to brake more effectively. I don't know if you are trying to disprove my theory that less turning+more brakes is an effective understeer recovery method, but you just proved it.
>understeer is an inherent problem of fwd cars that cannot be remedied with setup due to all forces acting on the same 2 tires among other things like weight distribution and transfer. can fwd be fast? absolutely. but they still are and will always be held back by their drive configuration.
I don't know if you are trying to derail the discussion into a fwd vs rwd debate, but nobody was talking about drivetrain layout here.
The premise of the thread was if you prefer dealing with under or oversteer. That's it. No racing, not rallying, no apexes and trajectories.
Understeer is caused by loss of front grip, regardless of the car's layout or if you are racing or not. You get more grip by loading the tires and reducing their slip angle. How much you need to brake, throttle down or steer depends on the situation and is not the point of this discussion
>>13927055
>Load increases friction (I.e: grip). Period.
..............................
Unless you go past the load threshold of the tire. Have you ever heard a tire squeal or seen it smoke? That's an overloaded tire.
Hence why wider tires increase grip. The load is distributed over a larger contact surface increasing it's threshold.
It doesn't matter if the load is coming from the engine, the brakes, or the steering wheel. It's all kinetic energy and the tires resistance to inertia.
You aren't going to oversteer in normal daily driving so I don't know why are you are trying to eliminate racing from the discussion.
>>13927055
>>13927170
The problem here is you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what load is and how it's created. And thus, every other conclusion you make based on it is wrong.
I would rather deal with oversteer. My q45 was SOOO controllable when loose and just handled momentary traction loss with much finesse. My civic on the other hand is a straight line queen. The amount of power it has now makes the flaws of FWD very noticeable. I challenge anyone here to drive a 500hp FWD and a 500hp RWD and tell me which was less stressful to negotiate through a turn.
>>13927210
My assumptions may be wrong, but your (or whoever it was) arguments all point towards my original theory that less slip angle and more load cause more grip.
Which translates to less wheel turning and more braking.
I don't know why you are trying so hard to prove me wrong.
If you want to correct my understanding of the concept of load, be my guest, but you can't tell me that turning less and braking more is not a good way (emphasis on "good", not to be read as "100% effective") to counteract understeering.
>>13926353
It's about more than friction though. By braking you are asking the front tires to do more work. They now have to slow the car and redirect where it is moving.
>>13926995
pretty much correct, the only exception i suppose would be when you have a differential that can do some kinda torque vectoring to pull you round. but that's because it uses the tyres more effectively/fully rather than magicking grip out of thin air
>>13925828
I'd rather preffer if you stop making retarded fucking threads OP
>>13926995
>reducing throttle does not load the front.
Don't give a fuck about the rest of your post, that's dead fucking wrong and you should know it. Seriously extreme cases of this are the textbook definition of lift-off oversteer.
>>13927006
Load as in weight not power I believe that's what that anon meant.
Jesus christ this thread is embarrassing, have none of you retards ever been to the track?
Bunch of wannabes who think rwd is best because you can rip a skid, /o/ is becoming dumb as fuck
>>13927703
understeer on the street because it's safer, oversteer on the track because its more fun
>>13925828
Oversteer is more fun. Understeer just feels like the car is giving up on you.
Understeer is easier to deal with, but I think I prefer oversteer.
In FF's when you over steer, you just point your wheels and floor it. Hell oversteer in FF is preferred.
In my AW11, understeer upon entry into a corner is terrifying,.. it immediately results in a flip flop of forces that's scary.
FR's are cheese.
![205gti004[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/k8GKUib.jpg "205gti004[1].jpg")
>>13928509
>oversteer in FF is preferred
I can agree with this
>>13927494
>>13928055
you are dumb as fuck. thanks for making yourself easily identifiable though.
>>13927170
>>13927210
one of you is talking about a tires frictional load, one is talking about the amount of weight pressing down on the tire.
if you use the tire circle theory
>>13926915
is saying
Braking means more weight over the tire, ie making the friction circle bigger
>>13926995
is saying if you slam on the brakes your asking a tire thats already at its limits to do even more, or try to push beyond its friction circle.
for the average shmuck driver in a shitbox, understeer is much easier to deal with then oversteer. Its much easier to understand
>If i go too fast i cant turn
>to correct stop going so fast
then it is to understand
>if i go too fast the car will turn then the back will slide out and snap around and kill me
>to correct, turn the wheel against the rotation, keep your eyes pointed in the direction you want to go, reduce but maintain throttle to keep weight over the rear wheels
while blindly panicing, even if, to an experienced driver, controlling the rear stepping out is much easier.
most car manufactures build their hipo cars to understeer, because it much safer for an inexperienced driver to slide off the road, then to spin around and hit something sideways or flip.
>>13928609
The fact of the matter is in real life people are losing grip because of snow and ice, not because they're trying to cut a few tenths off their time to the grocery store.
People don't learn how to control understeer, because they never get a chance to understand it.
Everyone slams on the brakes and hits steering lock.
Correcting understeer is unintuitive, which is why you see so many people in ditches around bends facing forward.
Correcting oversteer is intuitive, but does require some experience to not over correct.
>>13928609
>sub 1g limit of grip
lol shit
buy some decent tires.
>>13929387
are you australian?
>>13926353
The problem is ( especially in FWD) braking during understeer counter acts your LSD which just leads to more understeer
>>13929350
>The fact of the matter is in real life people are losing grip because of snow and ice
What is water
What is dirt and gravel and leaves on the road
What is all the army of kids that just got their licence and only want to be hektik on the road and go too fast
But hey, i'm sure all the collective engineering departments of all manufacturers are stupid because they decided understeer is safer, you are the one true enlightened.
>Correcting understeer is unintuitive, which is why you see so many people in ditches around bends facing forward.
No you dense fuck, you see so many because almost all the cars out there are made to be understeering. Understeer is safer not because you are 100% sure of recovering from it, but because you have a lower chance of dying when you hit something.
>Correcting oversteer is intuitive, but does require some experience to not over correct.
Is this somehow disproving the fact that understeer is safer?
Do you have any other arguments other than "hurrr oversteer is easier"? Because to me it all looks like " lemme put this trip up and tell you how oversteer is easier to control so everyone can associate me to a great and cool driver"
