>fwd sedan
has been since quite a while.
>>13898759
how is FWD sedan bad?
I drive one
I can compete
I actually kind of like it..
but,
>>13898765
this
The thing is that the modern BMW drivers are way more interested in prestige than raw performance at the limits.
Modern FWD cars perform really well and to feel a big difference, you have to drive your car at its limits which most modern BMW drivers are not interested in.
>>13898777
RWD was BMW's USP
>>13898759
If you think that spoiled girl talking on her phone while driving in her FWD BMW thinks FWD stands for anything other than "Fast Wide Dildo" you are terribly mistaken.
>>13898777
>not knowing what understeer is
Get out
>>13898805
Yeah, sadly it WAS.
They just kept that thing going until they were established in Murriga.
Now the USP is just the badge. It is totally sufficient and since the drivers are completely ignorant, they can install cost efficient FWD drivetrains and 80% won't fucking car or even notice it.
>>13898819
>understeer
>bad
nigga you don't even drive.
>>13898759
>implying Mini isn't built by BMW
>>13898819
Kill yourself dude
my FWD Sedan could beat whatever rwd shitbox you got hands down
>>13898825
You're right. All the greatest race cars are FWD.
You literally know nothing about driving
>>13898825
>>13898836
You are fucking stupid and no nothing about actual driving if you think FWD is superior to RWD. there is a reason no one, other than the tards at Nissan (look how well that worked) ,build FWD race cars.
>>13898826
what's your point? minis have always been FWD
>>13898873
LOL
>>13898825
Understeer is not fun nigga, we want to hoon in roundabouts, walmart parking lots and play pretend rally on dirt/gravel back roads.
Besides, working on FF vehicles, or any transverse engine ain't fun.
L-FR drive is the best
>>13898791
This is correct. Rip e46, e30, and I think e92
>>13898885
My point is that BMW has been building FWD cars for a while
>>13898873
FWD and RWD are on the same level scrub
>>13898825
>>13898836
I bet these guys are "enthusiasts"
>>13898918
In what way? If you think in the world of motor racing, then you've gone full retard
>>13898942
Yes in the world of motor racing.
>>13898759
>>13898819
>>13898836
>>13898840
>>13898873
>>13898890
>>13898933
>MUH RWD
FWD is better for the city. All you need to do is drive in straight lines at the speed limit. You're not going to be drifting or going around sharp corners at 80 miles per hour. Get your heads out of your asses.
Fucking christ who the hell cares?
Bunch of buttmad rwd land barge v8 faggots bitching about front wheel drive again.
This board sucks.
>>13898944
Give me an example of FWD beating RWD, from the last 50 years, at LeMans or in F1
>>13898955
We're talking about performance limit driving
now A-B
Idiot
and fuck you for suggesting that FWD is only good for A-B
>>13898910
Not BMW branded ones though
This is the final death of the BMW brand. They were dead to me with the release of the F30, but now they're buried and I've moved on to a literal dead brand
>>13898967
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdo7NNT_pW4
purest form of motor sport
>>13898970
This guy gets it. If all you cared about is A-B, don't buy a BMW
FWD vs RWD is the dumbest debate ever.
Yes. They're different.
Yes. They're better at different things.
No. One is not inherently all supreme over the other.
No. The mass market does not push it to the limit every second of every day.
Yes. People want different things and that's why there are different cars.
The target audience for beamers in America consists of the rich baby boomers and successful people or the elderly who wants comfort.
When's the last time you heard an 80 year old woman complain about "BU BU BUT MUH UNDERSTEER"
>>13898979
I'm sorry, that doesn't look like Monaco or the Mulsan Straight. And no, rally isn't more "pure" than any other series. Also, the last 2WD car to win at Rally's highest level was RWD.
>>13899015
This post completely missed the point.
We ARE talking about driving at the limit
We're talking in terms of sports and automobile enthusiasts
fuck off anon
if you're going to defend FWD, do it in a way that doesn't make it seem like a shitty commuter econobox for old people
>>13899022
Wrong.
>>13899025
No we are not.
This thread states that BMW is dead because they made a car FWD.
I stated that the majority of people buying beamers don't drive like that.
Grow up and buy something else if you want performance.
>>13899032
This is not what the thread is about
So you think FWD cars can't perform well?
the only instance of fwd vs rwd in a level playing field i can think of is touring cars.
bmw ended up raping everyone so hard they changed the rules
>>13899044
Literally never stated that.
They perform better at different things. Personally I drive through corners for all of 30 seconds of my 20 minute highway commute to work and the same route back.
I drive a fwd autotragic Corolla because it's cheap, it's comfy enough, and it gets decent gas mileage for how I use it.
Don't get me wrong, when I get my second car it's going to be manual and RWD for the sake of having something to hoon in with friends.
The average consumer just doesn't look at the "whippin' it" abilities of a car anymore.
Does it suck? Hell fuckin yes. I would LOVE to have cars focused on performance instead of purely aesthetics and MUH lineage/pedigree.
But that's just not a good business model anymore.
>>13899066
So you admit that RWD is better
you're a dickhead
>fwd cant corner
>fwd cant hoon
go fuck yourself
>>13899076
Lol you're so jaded that I don't even want to discuss anything with you.
I present facts regarding the benefits of one versus the other, and you assume I'm shitting on RWD.
I tell you that I like my fwd econobox for work and want a RWD for fun, and you assume FUN = BETTERRRRR
The most fun is not the most practical. We wish it was, but it's not.
Shouldn't you be studying for driver's ed right now?
The average BMW driver probably doesn't even know what drive train he/she has. Keep in mind 99% of BMW's will never see a track or any kind of aggressive driving what so ever. People buy German luxury vehicles for the name they couldn't give a fuck if it's FWD.
>>13899090
This
>>13899088
why do you browse /o/
we're talking about fun
and you're literally making up your own argument to avoid talking about fun and performance
you're shitting on FWD you dickhead
you're acting like FWD is garbage that only exists for econobox
>>13898970
Go eat the shit out of your mom's ass you flaming faggot.
FWD isn't a piece of shit like you homos think it is. Kill yourself.
>>13899102
i'm literally arguing in support of FWD asshole
>>13899025
How many people are currently "driving at the limit" you fucking faggot? Not many.
>>13899101
Why do you browse /o/ if a differing opinion makes you mad?
FWD is of course hoonable, but it's not as fun to me. Why would I want something that transfers weight away from the drive wheels in my moment of accelaration? Why would I want a fun car that can't into drift?
I'm being the adult here and accepting the facts.
I bet you also support Donald Trump.
Good
BMW is responsable of autismal rwd fanboys
>>13899110
that's great, but that's not what this discussion is about
Most BMWs are awd here save for Ms.
>>13899101
Also
>making up an argument to avoid talking about fun and performance
>I literally stated that my fwd Corolla is nice for gas mileage and my straight line commute
>I stated that RWD is more FUN for hooning in
I stated the facts about fun and performance, put your glasses back on because you might need the help to reread that post again.
>>13899116
>fwd
>cant into drift
i dont think i want a driver as bad as you hoonin in a RWD
>>13899134
Fuck you for thinking that RWD performs better
you're a piece of shit
>>13899141
Why would I want to drift my daily driver econobox when I could instead get a shitty rwd civic for like $500 and have an easier time drifting it to begin with?
http://www.kbb.com/car-advice/articles/which-wheel-drive-is-best-for-you/
Your argument is summed up as "EVERYONE DRIVES LIKE ME AND SHOULD LIKE THE DRIVETRAIN I LIKE BECAUSE I SAID SO"
>>13899149
But as far as physics are concerned....it does perform better in corners and flat out accelaration....
Step your game up
>FWD sucks omg understeer
>muh dorifto kingu RWD
it's like you guys never watched 90's BTCC or rally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD1yOqNTpGo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpL_72hx3Js
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvXJnFqv_Jg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEi3PLeEARs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW0FqyuttXs
uneducated Amerifucks.
>>13899153
>FWD is for shitty econobox practicality shitbox
>RWD is for fun, true performance, hooning
Again, go fuck yourself
you don't know anything about cars
![james-may-laugh-o[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/1Q6oay0.gif "james-may-laugh-o[1].gif")
>>13899149
>>13899163
How am I wrong though? You state I know nothing about cars but everything I posted is fact.
Your argument is akin to showing someone the definition of a word and they react by throwing the dictionary out the window and beating on your chest like a nig ape because they don't want to believe it.
>>13899171
Can you help me with this GM shill fuck >>13899168
He honestly thinks FWD is good
>>13899132
eat a dick
>>13899182
Are you calling me (the Corolla owner) a GM shill?
>>13899189
AE86?
>>13899189
What?
>>13899182
They can be good properly tuned and driven correctly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHpSrgHflVI
>>13899163
Fwd supercars when?
>>13899195
Lol no I said it's FWD, it's just a 2003 Corolla breh. Closest I've had to an 86 was a 1991 Tercel and they're only somewhat similar in regards to shape.
>>13899201
>stock silvia vs. tuned civic
>civic wins
WOW NO SHIT
>>13898759
>yfw a couple of years ago, there was a survey among 1 series owners who thought that their 1 series was fwd and couldnt tell the difference
>>13899221
>300hp
>stock
You realize that Kei Office was Tsuchiya's own personal tuning company?
This entire thread is a kek and a half
>>13899234
I'm the dude talking about the benefits of both and just laughing at the guy being buttmad thinking I'm calling FWD garbage by pointing out the flaws and benefits of BOTH drivetrains.
I love it.
>Just because your box of crayons has different colors than my box of markers doesn't mean one's better.
That's how I feel about drivetrains.
Watching someone get assblasted about it when I don't even care what he drives is the best.
>>13899288
you ARE calling it garbage because you're saying FWD is bad for racing and performance
>>13899293
Never stated racing, I stated cornering and 0-XX acceleration.
In those instances of course RWD is better.
It's literally pick your poison dude.
UNDERSTEER or OVERSTEER either way you're getting there.
>>13899293
Also since when is racing literally the only important factor in determining if a car is garbage?
With that mentality I bet you think a Model T is the bee's knees compared to a modern FWD car because "AT LEAST MUH T IS FR"
>>13899312
so you admit RWD is better
thanks dude
FWD is for idiot poorfags
>>13899329
I can't let you put me in your basket with that mentality though.
I like FWD.
I like RWD.
But here's the real SHOCKING kicker...
...I like them for different reasons and different driving styles.
>>13899348
One being performance, the other being a shitbox you give your retarded niece
>>13899351
I wouldn't trust my neice with either, but then again she's 7 lmao
In terms of just availability and price and ease of handling I'd much rather someone UNDERSTEER off the road rather than OVERSTEER into the oncoming.
One is good for flat out hooning.
One is better in slippery situations due to it's inherent weight of the engine already over the wheels.
It all gets fucky when you divide it up into FF, FR, RR, MR, MF (?) etc. though
>>13899376
>FWD is the safe option for people bad at driving
>RWD is for true racers
thanks
>>13899380
>AWD*
ftfy faggot
>>13898885
Minis have a glorious racing history! Lots of SCCA autocross records, too.
I'm not going to say that FWD is great, but it can be done well and for most people its advantages (interior room) are more significant than its disadvantages (can't adjust car's attitude with throttle).
I’d be more concerned about the 3-series becoming dull to drive despite being RWD.
>>13899380
True racers should be able to perform in either. RWD is just like wearing an athletic supporter versus not wearing one while playing tackle football.
Sure you could still do it in FWD, but why bother trying to make something work outside of what it's designed for?
New civic type r destroys everyone's cars here no one can even compete with a new Civic Type R who knows if even the new Focus RS can get better lap times, it's fucking faster than the new m3
People are gonna cry like little bitches when fwd lsd technology breaks through like honda did
>>13899393
top kek m8
>fwd will never ever be good at performance
i love you
>>13899399
I don't know how you guys keep turning my statement into absolutes but it's kind of lame.
FWD is still perfectly fine, but IF I'M INTENDING TO HOON IT AND WHIP CORNERS, then yes, I would rather have RWD.
Given that I just drive to work at the moment, I really couldn't care less what my drivetrain is and it just so happens that the car I found was FWD.
There are plenty of balls deep FWD cars, and there always will be.
>>13899417
name one
>>13899428
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Front-wheel-drive_sports_cars
>>13899376
Oversteer happens to FWD cars too. I’ve spun my wife’s Acura. What’s true about FWD is that you won’t get oversteer under acceleration.
Similarly, RWD cars understeer all the time too. What makes them tricky for inexperienced drivers is that they can go from under- to oversteer pretty suddenly.
FWD is shit and for econoboxes and your grandma
FWD lovers are poorfags and/or cockholders
>>13899445
Yeah I just like to generalize that when I'm dealing with people who can't accept the finer details. Shit happens no matter what you drive.
It all comes down to how you drive, really.
>>13899451
>look mom I posted it again
>also don't tell anyone I drive FWD
>man I hate FWD
>FWD is soooo gay
>thank god I'M not gay
>I know I'm hetero and important
>I debate needless facts that have no effect on my own life
>online
>LOOK MOM I POSTED IT AGAIN
>>13899463
Jokes on you, I drive FWD.
My last two cars were RWD.
First one was less shitty, second one was more shitty.
I prefer my FWD econobox to the second RWD car, but I wish I could get another of my first RWD car.
Meanwhile, I wish my econobox was RWD.
>>13899455
lol
so you're saying i can compete in a 95 Camry?
>>13899475
I mean if you were to modify it to put out better hp/torque then why not?
You do you, man. That's the point of cars. They're all different, you find what you like and you make it your own.
>>13899474
I drive FWD, I want a RWD, but I don't see either as the end all be all supreme drivetrain.
Why limit yourself?
It's on par with MUH V8 mentality desu
>>13899474
FWD is shitty dude im so sorry
FWD is for stupid retards
>>13899455
And suspension setup. A stiff rear anti-roll bar relative to the front one will make a FWD car (or any other kind) oversteer under deceleration (corner entry), and sometimes even in steady-state cornering.
Only a RWD (or rear-biased AWD) car will oversteer on corner exit. Not all of them – you can set one up to be crappy enough to understeer all the time. But it’s a prerequisite.
>>13899475
You'd have to swap out half the suspension...
>>13899488
If it were for retards they wouldn't sell.
Welcome to the SHOCKING reality that things that are different can still be good.
But you can't hear me while huddled up in your don't tread on me flag, can you?
>hurrr FWD IS FOR POOR FAGGOTS KEKEKEKE RWD MASTER RACE
>literally only rwd car most anons on here can afford is a 1600 dollar beat to shit miata or ex police car beat to shit crown vic
>>13899487
IMO the handling of RWD cars is more predictable and easier to control in adverse conditions, not to disregard the fun factor.
FWD is better for traction if you can't get AWD but I hate the understeer.
>>13899488
It was a choice between a decent FWD car or a shitty RWD car, couldn't afford a decent RWD car. I'm so sorry, brother ;___;
>>13899500
The miata is better than buying a shit civic or integra gsr
>>13899510
except it isnt
>>13899490
That's actually really cool to know, thanks for sharing :)
On another kind of related topic since you mentioned AWD, how do you feel about AWD with bias? Does it still provide some of the fun of RWD is it's just biased to the rear rather than true rear?
It's kind of appealing to me but I'm still iffy about it.
So far my only true AWD experience has been my friend's R32
Why do 'murifat talk about rwd and driving pleasure when they can't even drive a manual?
>>13899513
If FWD is good, why is almost every honda owner under the sun trying to figure out a way to become RWD or AWD
>>13899546
because some of us are Yuropoors and rather enjoy our RWD cars while mastering the art of manual shifting kthxbye
>>13899545
100% right
>>13899547
Because easy shitbox drifting
>>13899545
>front mounted AWD
>god tier
tob kek
>>13899547
they dont
you are a faggot
>>13899561
oh fuck, you're right.
>>13899567
FWD is garbage
i hate fwd
i hate fwd
its shit
its shit
no fwd car is better than my miata
i passed up integra gsr
i passed up countless civic Si
i passed up everything
everything
for this miata
its good
it has to be
>>13899161
FUCKING THIS.
>>13899576
I was referring to his picture, retard
>>13898885
That was when Minis were small and British, not a grille and lights slapped on a boxy BMW chassis
>>13899576
your shitposting is not even fun or interesting
>b-but
fuck you, learn to shitpost like the pros
>>13898971
>what is the 2 Series Active Tourer
>>13898759
What is this?
>>13898840
>HURR DURR RACING DEFINES DAILY DRIVING
This is the most retarded argument in the RWD vs FWD battles
![bmw_serie-2-active-tourer_968[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6BemRYK.jpg "bmw_serie-2-active-tourer_968[1].jpg")
What about this op?
![P90171434-990x659[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/PFx2qEf.jpg "P90171434-990x659[1].jpg")
>>13899627
or THIS
BMW really pissed me off when they made the "M6 Gran Coupe." Sure it looks good, but
1. IT IS NOT A COUPE
2. The M6 has ALWAYS been a 2 door, there is no reason to make a 4 door M6, just call it an M5 LWB or something like that
>>13899515
AWD with rear bias is probably the fastest configuration of all, but it can be done so differently that it’s hard to say whether it’ll be fun. You can get it in one of the recent Acura sedans, and they’re not really fun to drive. But a lot of AWD cars are. Usually they’re fun simply because they let you go fast, and more throttle isn’t always punished with understeer the way it is with FWD. They minimize how much you slide around, so if your idea of fun is oversteering then stick to a Miata or Mustang. That’s not necessarily the best thing to do on normal roads.
>>13899637
The new acura sedans aren't rear biased, at most they can send 50% to the rear. 90% of the time they are FWD.
>>13899635
True that. It was the last drop for me, as BMW fan with 10 years dedication to the brand. I sold my last BMW recently and I decided not to buy another one in visible future. Those FWD ones and the whole mass market strategy is just a fucking joke. BMW is rekt
>>13899546
>not knowing that the American market is the only reason BMW still sells a manual
"The BMW M5 is available with a manual transmission only in the U.S., and only then because frustrated customers complained about the standard dual-clutch."
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2014-bmw-m6-to-offer-manual-transmission-345807/
kill yourself, europoor
BMW was kill when Pischetsrieder stepped down in 1999
>>13899635
>>13899657
>implying bmw cares about you used shitbox buyers
top kek
>>13898759
Implying any BMW driver is hektik enough to need rwd
>>13899668
I don't care that they don't care about me or people like me. It's business and I understand it. I just don't like the way they decided to take.
>>13899647
Oh crap, you're right. My bad.
>>13898759
wtf Why does it look like a Mazda
>>13899737
it's cool. Only cars that have non-AWD RWD models (that also make AWD models) will be rear biased. The big Acura sedans are still based on FWD Accord platforms. To be fair, so are pretty much all Audi sedans.
the problem is not that rwd is better than fwd
it's that bmw has fallen so far they're going against one of their fucking core mainstays
>>13898890
>rwd is better if you're a teenager
oh, i get it now.
xdrive e90 master race here, conquering the canadian winter while still actually gripping around corners.
>>13899025
>if you're going to defend FWD, do it in a way that doesn't make it seem like a shitty commuter econobox for old people
o-okay
>>13899547
>implying teenagers that "drift" with their fwd riced hondas even give a fuck
>>13899822
>>13899822
i give a fuck
>>13899499
>If it were for retards they wouldn't sell.
Use your head anon. Popular =/= good. Nickelback sells mlions of albums and is shit.
FWD is shit and is for shitboxes. End of story.
>>13900006
>being this salty new type R wrecks your shit
>>13900020
New Type R has a terrible 0-60 for having 300 hp at its weight. Fwd is garbage, get the fuck over it.
>>13900034
Face it bitch. F1 will never be FWD. why? because FWD is inherently inferior in a road car. You know this but don't want to admit it. Deal with it or kill yourself. It literally makes no difference.
>>13898759
BMW was kill when they stopped making the 2002
>>13900034
With pilot sports it's 4.6 to 60 lmao
>>13898759
you have got to be kidding me, now i can't say that BMW has only made RWD cars, fuck shit hell.
Mazda save us please i hate this gay earth
>>13900325
FWD BTFO
>>13900350
>weaboo trash
>>13900397
WEABOO
E
A
B
O
O
Selling points of BMWs used to be relatively small size, good handling, N/A inline 6 and RWD. This doesn't have any of those features and that's why people are upset. I personally don't give a shit, as the local BMW dealers are treating their customers like shit, but if I was to buy a new BMW it should have the features mentioned above.
>>13900430
>tfw all the sales reps at my local dealership (there's one literally within walking distance from my house) are all kind of douchey
>but all the parts and service staff are awesome and like my 540i wagon
i'd go there more often if the parts cost markup wasn't so incredibly massive
>>13899451
LONDON
O
N
D
O
O
>>13898759
They aren't kill yet, but I reckon the downmarket drift will get them before too long. Teenage girls and lower middle class types like cars like this because people they aspire to be drive BMWs. Trouble is, people like that start seeing BMWs being driven by teenage girls and lower middle classes, they'll go elsewhere to preserve their status (Tesla? Jaguar? Alfa Romeo? Hell, Cadillac?). Which means the lower middle class types and teenage girls will stop valuing the brand, which will mean they'll turn to other brands which offer more features for the money for their fwd shitbox needs. Which means BMW has lost most of their audience, and is now kill.
It'll take a while, but I can totally see it happening.
>>13903692
Yeah, people are still badgefuckers though.
>have coworker
>he's a manlet who always overcompensates in all aspects of live
>buys a 328i
>starts bragging to me about car
>say "too bad it's a three series" nonchalantly
>he turns red and stutters, "y-youre just jealous"
Oooooooh, a $38k bmw. I'm so impressed! My STI limited cost more than that.
Badgefuckers are literally cancer.
the m4 is the only relevant model anymore but at 70k price point i'd rather have a cayman s better yet a 991 C2S. their cars are just lame now a days.
>>13904057
>their cars are just lame now a days.
all you really need when all is said and done, is a nice corolla
>>13904057
I don't know about that - I believe the more powerful 2ers are still supposed to have a bit of old BMW spirit to them.
>>13898759
I wouldn't stress too much. These are primarily meant for the Asian and Latin American markets. BMW doesn't have a super cheap sedan that's obtainable for the masses in these developing lower middle income markets so this is designed to give them market representation in regions where a 3 series is too expensive for most people and enlarge their consumer base into the lower middle class. They're going to be built in Mexico and China and possibly won't even be released in other markets.
>>13904072
the M2 is an underpowered M3
the current M3 is horrible how can the even heavier and less power M2 be any good?
>>13904088
Dunno. Perhaps you should try driving one to find out?
>>13904098
why bother, already have my dream car
>>13899627
those weren't core models
if the 1-series can switch to FWD whats to stop the 3-series switching?
>>13904088
>M2 is an underpowered M3
You are literally THIS retarded
>>13904130
are you being ironically retarded?
>>13904124
If you've never driven it, and don't intend to drive it, how do you know it drives badly?
>>13904267
>putting words in my mouth
it looks like a lackluster m which is the current trend at BMW
>>13904088
>M2 1495 kg
>M3 1595 kg
>M4 1572kg
>>13904360
my bad you weeb fuck meant to say when compared to the 1m which is arguably the best car they have put out in recent years
>>13904379
>1M 1495 kg
>>13899161
>yfw rwd cars are carrying ballast to give fwd a chance
If BMW is so good why aren't they in F1?
>>13904260
M2 is an underpowered M4.
Also, the M2 doesn't use the S55 engine, but a slightly modified N55. The S55 engine is very different from the N55.
>>13904081
>what is brand dilution
>>13904477
they've had some of the most iconic f1 engines and teams in history u pleb
>>13904807
Something that's probably not going to matter very much considering this is going to likely end up being about $28,000 which is still a lot of money in Mexico and China. Most people there drive $14,000 Nissan Versas or VW Polos. Like I said. These are unlikely to be sold outside of developing markets, the same way that they Ford doesn't sell the Figo in any first world countries. Mercedes is also building an A-Class sedan for the Latin American market to slot below the CLA. These vehicles are literally being designed to be at the high end of the tiny econo-box segement for countries where econo-boxes are the norm. It's a very smart move to gain market share in developing regions and gain brand loyalty in markets where in 10-20 years, more people will be able to move up to bigger cars like the 3 & 5 series. I don't think this will dilute the brands image if they're smart about it. They could probably even sell it in the US as premium if they offered it as a hybrid or something.
>>13898995
WTF? If all you care about is A-B, then of course you get a BMW. Luxury cars are just for point to point, and BMW has evolved from sports car to luxury car manufacture.
>>13899554
>some of us are Yuropoors
So you like getting raped for emissions?
>>13904002
>$38k bmw
Must be shit.
>>13898759
Been dead since the last e46 rolled off the line as far as I'm concerned.
>>13909604
nah man
