11 speeds
>gears are too close
>chain is too stretch
>back is too wide
I'm proposing a constitutional ban on having more than 10 gears on your rear cog. Nobody NEEDS more than 10 gears.
>>977291
It's the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Needs.
>>977291
>t.casual
You also don't need;
>indexed shifting,or gears for that matter
>Freewheeling cogs
>anything other than rod or spoon brakes
>pneumatic tires
>anything other than steel westwood rims
>>977291
>Unironically creating a troll thread about 11 speeds
I'm sorry I can't hear you over how crisp my XT M8000 is.
I'm torn on this
On the one hand, progress is good
On the other hand, THE ONLY REASON THIS 12 SPEED BULLSHIT IS HAPPENING IS BECAUSE OF STUPID 1X HORSE SHIT FUCK YOU
So in light of the above, any cassettes with more than 10 gears should be illegal
>>977296
don't really need a bike desu
>>977291
>doesn't understand improvements in materials technology
>doesn't understand improvements in machining and manufacturing technology
>doesn't understand that fewer jumps in tooth count between gears means smaller jumps in cadence from one gear to the next
>doesn't understand that what 'recreational' and 'commute' riders want factors very little into product line decisions
OP someone like you should probably just get a city bike with flat bars, an internally-geared rear hub, and a toothed rubber drive belt, it's good enough for the type of riding you do, and you won't have to worry your silly little head about all these technical details anymore, you'll JUST RIDE, okay?
>>977291
Actually, 11s is pretty important for people racing at a highly competitive level. 9s has two bad shifts, 10s has one bad shift, 11s is silky smooth.
If you are not racing, the benefit of having a perfect cassette may or may not be worth the extra drivetrain wear & cost. It's a personal choice.
https://www.sram.com/stories/introducing-sram-eagle-1x
OP is a fucking retard lmao
nobody NEEDS more than one gear
>>977323
Wat? What bad shift(s)?
'11s' doesn't define the number of teeth changed by each shift, do you mean, if they were all say, 11-28 cassettes, then 11s would have smaller shifts than 9s? Or wtf are you talking about?
>>977291
of course nobody NEEDS it, its just very nice to have small increments.
I recently switched from a 11-25 to a 11-28 cassette, both 11 speed. I get incredibly triggered at the 15-17 gap of the 11-28 cassette. This gap means I cant have a comfortable cadence between 39-42 kph. Luxury problem maybe, but it does show how minimum increments make a significant difference in comfort riding at any speeds. Im probably switching to a 12-23 once I get out of the mountains.
Ill be first in line when cassettes get even more gears.
>>977296
>>pneumatic tires
Considering how much effort has gone onto replacing pneumatic tires, AND the fact that the bike didn't get off the ground without them, I'd say bikes DO need them.
>>977303
>Unironically
ironic != facetious
>>977321
>>doesn't understand that what 'recreational' and 'commute' riders want factors very little into product line decisions
Rec and commuter riders *should* be who they build for, it's 9x% of their customer base.
>>977348
>nobody NEEDS more than one gear
Unless you want to walk up hills like a fixiefag, anyone who doesn't live at the beach needs multiple gears.
>>977388
>Ill be first in line when cassettes get even more gears.
THIS is the real problem I have with 11+ speed drivetrains.
A well-maintained bike should last a good long time.
But when I bought my main bike (2007), 9 speed was the thing.
Now I need to replace the rear derailleur, and my choices are very limited because 11 speed is the new thing.
9 speed chains were the best balance between #gears and chain durability
where did it all go so wrong
9 speed until death
(8 speed also acceptable)
>>977388
>of course nobody NEEDS it, its just very nice to have small increments.
Get a triple front and a narrow-range 9 speed rear
> road (11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28) - granny 26t
> tour/mtb (11 - 12 - 14 - 16 - 18 - 21 - 24 - 28 - 32 ) - granny 22t
>>977410
One of my bikes is 52/42/30 front and 13-26 9sp rear (13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26) and it's very nice.
I have to say though that 52/39/30 with 11-32 11sp is great.
>>977428
>52/39/30 with 11-32 11sp
Interesting.. campag?
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
>>977409
If they started supported supporting 9-speed cassettes again, I'd jump on that train in a second.
Destroying parts commonality and compatibility for a minutia of incremental gain is stupid except for where it extracts your money which is what it's really all about. People should have boycotted the change but they didn't.
>>977428
>I have to say though that 52/39/30 with 11-32 11sp is great.
Yeah my only criticism of 10+ speeds is chain life. If they can build a cheap chain that lasts as long as an old 8 speed for a... 12 speed cassette... then sign me up. I like 1x a lot. Waiting for the trickle-down SRAM 50t cassettes
>>977410
>front derailleurs
And another thing, IRD is making wide-range 8 and 9 speed cassettes, but they're fuggen $150
The technology exists to make them. Sunrace needs to step up and take the market. They aren't have their 42t 10-speed mostly-steel cassettes for $50. I would kill for a 9 speed
>>977440
http://www.wiggle.com/shimano-hg50-9-speed-cassette/
What the hell are you talking about?
>>977462
>What the hell are you talking about?
Being able to go to the bike store and buy a new bike.
>>977467
>Being able to go to the bike store and buy a new bike.
I bet you can, it's called Sora 3500 and it's a pretty decent group.
>>977458
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/nz/en/shimano-alivio-hg400-9-speed-mtb-cassette/rp-prod119945
Is 12-36 not wide enough for you? Because anything with wider gaps is not going to shift well at all. If you wanted wider it would be great if someone came up with some way of fitting more cogs.
>>977457
Found the retard who can't figure out how to work on a bike.
I'm gonna need x12 soon my average speed is not improving and need the extra gear.
such a struggle when bike manufacturers dont make what you want
>>977430
Yeah. Campy Athena triple + Ultegra 11-32 cassette.
Way back in the day of 8 and 10 speed bikes it was common to run a half step plus small granny triple, usually involving modifications to be able to put a 74mm BCD ring on your crank so you could run 52-47-24.
It's kind of a shame that front shifting is starting to become a lost art.
>>977382
>t. doesn't ride
9s cassettes typically have two shifts of two or more teeth. This interrupts your cadence a bit more than is ideal, but more importantly it leaves you with two blindspots in your transmission, where you will not be pedaling at optimal cadence.
10s cassettes typically have one shift of two or more teeth. because there is an extra cog you get a 1t transition where there was a 2t transition, and you only have 1 "blindspot"
>>977488
heh cool. I have a soft spot for road triples too.
>>977291
>>gears are too close
Spread has nothing to do with the number of gears.
>>chain is too stretch
So nonsensical it's not even wrong.
>>back is too wide
Uses the same 130/135 OLD as tenspeed, you massive faggot.
>>977494
*Or maybe 9s is three bad shifts. What the fuck ever.
>>977494
A two tooth hop from 22→24 is exactly the same as shifting from 11→12. It's proportional. The steps are supposed to get bigger and bigger to preserve the "size" of the gear-changes.
Thanks for playing. Insert coin.
>>977482
I don't want to work on a bike, I want to enjoy riding one.
>>977406
>Unless you want to walk up hills like a fixiefag, anyone who doesn't live at the beach needs multiple gears.
git gud, noodle legs
>>977524
>git gud, noodle legs
git metal knee replacements @ 50 years ya fixpleb
>>977472
>Because anything with wider gaps is not going to shift well at all.
I'm used to friction-shifting 8/9 speeds so shifting performance is low on my list CRUNCH CRUNCH CLICK BABY
I like 1x for the lack of braincells required. I know it shortens chain line and is generally stupid but paired with 8/9 chains I'm okay with that
I'm also in favor of a shift-less approach to riding. I don't shift too much, instead just change my cadence and chill. I'm slow, obviously
>>977554
>chain line
life*
>>977554
But what the fuck are you complaining about though? Where are you getting this strawman shimano from that doesn't support 9 speed? What do you even want?? If your shifting is so crappy why are you fond of it??? How do you manage to have a poor shifting 8/9 speed friction setup???? You like classic drivetrains AND modern 1x memery that doesn't make sense at all with classic drivetrains???? WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID ANON? WHY?
>>977559
You may be addressing multiple posters but argument that a wide spread of gears creates hard shifting and that the clunky unflappable durability of 9speed cassettes are good are not necessarily in opposition. I like my rear cassette to look like an acorn not a pancake with toppings even though they're delicious.
I don't do a ton of climbing but when I do its seldom in the lowest gear anyway.
No, I want to quickly cruise for miles and miles without any wear or finicky shifting.
>>977566
There is nothing about a high number of gears that necessitates a high "spread" (it's called range) so your argument is out the window.
11t-25T 10 spd cassette master race reporting in. Feels comfy as fuck. I won't be upgrading anytime soon because its' a brand new groups et and my wheels won't take a 11 speed cassette. More is always better, nobody is forcing you to upgrade.
>>977578
its alright until you upgrade to be honest, ive been on a 7 speed for very long and was perfectly okay with it, now im bitching about single tooth gaps on my 11 speed. Just ride what you have until you need a new one is the best advice, you will become spoiled otherwise.
>Nobody NEEDS more than 10 gears.
You can pry those brifters from my cold dead hands!
And I'm not buying any compromise on a >reasonable restrictions on high capacity assault drivetrains
either.
Everyone knows where THAT leads to.
>>977553
resentful much, manlet
>>977482
>Still owning a front derailleur
>In 2016
Do you even know how to have fun?
>>977720
>>977291
I mean to be honest I'm fine with 7 well placed gears
>>977406
>Rec and commuter riders *should* be who they build for, it's 9x% of their customer base.
Know what the majority of recreational and commute riders want?
>The CHEAPEST bicycle possible, not the BEST bicycle possible
If what you say was actually true? We'd MAYBE have 3-speed internally-geared hubs, nothing but steel frame bikes, with flat handlebars, steel single-wall rims, etc. The whole bike would weigh 30 pounds, and it would still cost $1000, because they'd sell so few of them that there would never be enough mass production to bring the price-point down; basically, bicycle design would not have changed in at least 50 years, because there would be no reason to change it.
Professional competition on the other hand is similar to warfare, each side in the conflict seeking and advantage over the enemies they're fighting, which is what pushes technological advances in bicycle technology. Multiple gears in the back and chainrings in the front weren't invented to make commuters lives easier, they were invented to make climbing hills faster and easier for bike racers. Titanium frames, aluminum frames, carbon-fiber frames? The new hyrdoformed aluminum frames? Recreational and commute riders couldn't care less. But these all made the bike lighter and stiffer, giving pro racers and advantage -- until the competition got them, too. 8-cog, 9-cog, 10-cog, 11-cog cassettes? Racers. Brifters? Racers. Electronic shifting? Racers. CF wheelsets? Racers. Anything that was innovated to make the bike overall lighter? Racers. Expensive, high-performance tires? Racers.
EVERYTHING THAT WAS INNOVATED BEYOND A FIXED-GEAR BIKE WAS DRIVEN BY PRO RACING.
Then they turned around and re-invented fixed-gear track bikes, too.
You want to whine about this-that-the other being 'unnecesary'? Then be a fixie-fag, and STFU and enjoy blowing your knees out on hills, and be sure to complain really loudly about 'lycra-clad Freds' when some guy in full kit blows past you on a 15% hill.
>>977753
Derailleurs were invented by a bike tourist. They were banned by UCI for like 20 years. Aluminum frames are basically as old as steel frames.
>>977760
These things would never have caught on without bike racing and you damn well know it.
>>977761
You know racing is advertising, right? They're not developing new components out of the love of the sport, they're doing it so they can sell them to people. In some mythical world where racing never existed, they'd find some other way to make the tough sell of a faster, easier bike ride.
Everyone on this board needs to spend the time they spend bitching on this board riding their Damn bike
>>977762
>They're not developing new components out of the love of the sport, they're doing it so they can sell them to people
Maybe the soulless japs but you cannot deny the racing passion of campagnolo. Bellissimo.
>>977763
I don't even have a bike i just like shitposting about them.
>>977406
can you say more about the bike in the pictue ?
I was allways super curious about something like this ?
wouldn't it be possible to buid a rediculusly cheap bike from injection molded nylon lugs and wood ?
stuff for the third world or something.
>>977494
lol, thought so, you have no idea what the fuck are you talking about.. the number of 1t and 2t jumps is entirely defined by the range of the cassette and has NOTHING to do with the number of sprockets
t. never used anything other than the stock cassette that the LBS chose for him
>>977773
I haven't posted in this thread until now, but literally the fuck are you saying. (Also, the fuck is the guy you are responding to saying? So much faggotry in this thread)
The size of the jumps between adjacent cogs is entirely a function of BOTH the gear range AND the number of cogs. For example:
An 11-28 8-speed cassette has much larger jumps between some of the gears than an 11-28 11-speed, despite having the same gear range.
An 11-23 9-speed has exactly the same gear jumps over that range as an 11-28 11-speed; the 11-speed cassette just has two extra gears tacked onto the low end to increase the range.
>>977777
I know, like I already said, for a cassette with the same range, obviously 11s will have smaller jumps than 9s
>9s has two bad shifts, 10s has one bad shift, 11s is silky smooth.
This is what I'm disagreeing with, because it's objectively false. A corn cob (13-21) 9s has no bad shifts, and a wide range 11s has tonnes of "bad shifts". And, like you say, a corn cob 11s (11-21) has smaller shifts than a wide range 9s.
Obviously, the number of sprockets is not what defines the size of the shifts (although it does have some small effect), the range of the cassette is the biggest factor, so
>9s has two bad shifts, 10s has one bad shift, 11s is silky smooth.
is straight up bullshit
>>977777
Gearing is the difference between the cogs the tooth gaps skips cogs for maintaining your cadence between the rear cassette and the front cassette and 8, 9, 10 speed chainrings all give different values of gear inches for different generations. It is simply a manner of planned obsolescence with each shimanos they change the difference and standards and reduce the number of combinations you can think up together, so effectively deciding how to pedal for you, it's single speed, fixed gear together same drivetrain with no no how to number them until 11 speed.
>read thread
>no one talking about chain growth
Wow, y'all ride too much street
1x12 is stupid, too much chain growth.
2x11 is life
Life is 2x11
>fixxie can ES&D
12speed clusters?
BECAUSE THE BIKE INDUSTRY IS STAGNANT
lets make something pointless so that the think they have cutting edge new tech.
MORONS
>>977815
The uci hasn't regulated cassette size. What else are manufacturers going to change? ?
>>977795
What's chain growth?
My commuter just runs on 8spd whilst my Trainbike runs on 11spd, and i can clearly feel a huge difference. Therefor: I NEED 11spd because fuck your face
>>977323
I get it, at least for a shimano cassettes, 11sp has a 14% increase each shift. Where 9sp is going to have spots where it's 14+%.
>>977410
>>977881
No it doesn't you retard.
>>977323
Bro, I know people who race that would kill to get their 10 speed back
>>978088
Better cassette availability or what?
>>978090
Better chain stifness, more reactivity, less rubbing between the cogs, cheaper to replace, less likely to worn out soon, lots of aftermarket replacement parts, everything related to 10 speed gets cheaper and cheaper with the new 11 speed drivetrains so there's always available products.
If you are into racing and you are someone who is mad about sprinting and quickclimbing, then 10spd is the way to go. If you crash it is cheap to replace. A Shimano Dura Ace 7900 with do the job you want and has nothing to envy to the new 9000 or 9100 groupset. A 11 speed groupo won't fix any problem related to the cyclist. If you don't have a good cadence with a 10 speed cassette (11-28) then a 11 speed won't make it any better or easier. "if you can't get out of a climb with a 10spd then a 11 won't make any difference"
Another guy told me that 10 speed tends to be more precise and open to the heavy duty work.
>>978521
nigga u dumb
Amost all XC racers have gone to eagle but there are no sustained climbs in those laps. IIMHO real niggers who ride uphill need 2x. I predict SRAM will make them again but 3x is def dead.
>>978527
11 speed is overrated. Tell me good 3 reasons to love it
>>978521
>chain stifness
wat
>more reactivity
It doesn't shift faster
>less rubbing between the cogs
wat
>cheaper to replace
oh you're poor
>less likely to worn out soon
no
>lots of aftermarket replacement parts
Yeah cos shimano parts suck right
>there's always available products
>I know people who race that would kill to get their 10 speed back
wat
>blah blah your gear doesn't matter
ok, not really saying anything there though
People didn't race 11-28 10 speed cassettes, they raced 11-25. 9 speed people generally raced 11-23. It affords a better hill gear.
>Another guy told me
hear what you want to hear to make being poor cozy.
Btw 10 speed (10x2) poorfag here. You're just stupid.
>>977763
I ride 6 days a week and at least 200 miles, training and racing, so speak for yourself.
>>977762
>You know racing is advertising, right?
You're an idiot. They don't make up new shit out of the blue, they make it in response to what the pro teams can use. Then riders look at what the pro teams are riding and buy that. You seem to think it's backwards.
>>978521
You don't even ride a bike, do you? Or you have a fixie. Or you ride on the flat all the time, except for, what, overpasses? If you had ANY idea what you're talking about, you'd know that switching gears and having your cadence jump by 5 or 6rpm in one direction or another can really throw you off once you're into a rhythm at Threshold or higher. Having only 1 tooth difference between any cog and either adjacent cog would be ideal. The more cogs the closer it gets to that ideal.
>>978536
>I predict SRAM will make them again
Unlikely. They have closed their FD department. I suppose they could subcontract but that still sounds unlikely.
