He can't be fucking serious
>>66337811
Literally infinitely better than The Rolling Stones Top 500 list. What's your top ten out of curiousity?
>>66337811
what shit taste
>>66337811
I like everyone album on this list, but even I think this is a load of shite.
>>66337897
Just rock music? Or in general?
>>66337897
not op but it really isn't
TMR has some lulls, Rock Bottom is hilariously overrated, Faust is good but doesn't deserve to be in a top 10 of any kind, having any doors records in a top 10 is laughalbe, John Fahey doesn't traverse enough ideas to be considered for a top 10 and nice is terrible
I'd rather listen to overplayed pop albums that rolling stone trumpets than these overrated albums
>>66337811
Is Scaruffi an example of a proto-avant-teen?
>>66338024
*nico is terrible
>>66338013
In general but excluding jazz and classical.
>>66338064
Its just not as good as everyone says. I liked it, but it doesn't sound like it had a proper producer, its very sparse in some places, to the point that it sounds like a demo. The melodies range from great to very average.
>>66338024
You worded that like you were actually giving legitimate criticisms of the albums. You may as well just shitpost instead if you're not planning on saying anything of substance.
>>66338069
1. Nasa - Symphonies of the Planets
2. Lou Reed - Transformer
3. David Bowie - Heroes
4. Brian Eno - Another Green World
5. Sleep - Dopesmoker
6. Mari Kalkun - Vihmakono
7. Electric Wizard - Dopethrone
8. Lou Harrison - Gamelan Music
9. My Bloody Valentine - Loveless
10. Faust - Faust IV
These are just my personal favorites, not the ones i consider to be the ''greatest'' of any kind.
>>66337811
all those albums are amazing in their own right. if you cannot appreciate all of the albums mentioned I genuinely feel sorry for you.
>>66338150
>>66338150
AAAAHHHHH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAAAAAHHH
>>66338150
Absolute garbage taste mate
>>66338024
>Nico is terrible
>>66338209
>>66338218
Elaborate, please. These are my favourites, and i am well aware that they didn't break any boundaries, i just love the music. Want my list of the top 10 ''greatest'' rock albums of all time?
>>66338123
I don't think I've seen Rock Bottom mentioned outside of my art teacher, Scaruffi, and a handful of /mu/ posts.
It's also prog rock iirc, the melodies usually start out simple but grow more complexed and warped as the song progresses.
>>66338150
Okay well Scaruffi was compiling was listing what he thought were the greatest, what do you think are the greatest? You can even just do a top 5.
>>66338150
>These are just my personal favorites, not the ones i consider to be the ''greatest'' of any kind.
why? he asked you for your "top 10 greatest albums (excluding jazz & classical) of all times" list.
how would you compare the two lists if yours is completely diff?
I love every album on your list that I have heard (8/10 I know, the other 2 I've heard of), but only 5 of those would be deserving to be on a "great albums of all time" list. I'm sure you know the five..
>transformer
>heroes
>AGW
>loveless
>faust IV
and those aren't even my favorites from ur list (I like dopesmoker a lot more than loveless desu, fantastic album. don't care much for MBV, but it does belong on a GOAT list)
what's wrong with scruffles list? no, really?
>>66338024
shitty irrelevant non-criticism
I WILL defend piero with MY LIFE you fags
>>66338064
Wyatt's voice isn't strong enough to carry a whole album. People usually say it's "hauntingly fragile", which it is at times. However when he's not going for fragility I find the pitching issues, poor diction and thinness of his voice pretty grating.
>>66338150
>1. Nasa - Symphonies of the Planets
o boy i am laffin
>>66338127
Its a hell of a lot more than you've done to defend it. If you input anything other than his own personal taste into the list it almost completely falls apart. These albums could only be considered the "greatest" by a narrow set of preferences and in a vacuum that doesn't include influence or ground-breaking. Im not saying TMR or TVU isn't groundbreaking and influential, im saying like half of those albums are better-than-average records that didn't put a dint in the air-waves, the world music scene, or the exploration of sound and composition.
>>66338262
> and i am well aware that they didn't break any boundaries
.. are you stupid? Heroes didn't break any boundaries? Loveless didn't break any boundaries?
don't fucking step back just because two randoms told you you have shit taste. those albums were incredibly influential (so were AGW and transformer, literal gamechangers..)
>Want my list of the top 10 ''greatest'' rock albums of all time?
go ahead
>>66338046
Yes
>>66338336
>im saying like half of those albums are better-than-average records that didn't put a dint in the air-waves, the world music scene, or the exploration of sound and composition.
just get out dude. no one appreciates your half-assed trolling. you're just embarrassing yourself at this point..
>>66338292
Its barely mentioned, but every time its mentioned it gets glowing praise. I think its undeserved.
>>66338303
>I WILL defend piero with MY LIFE you fags
pretty pathetic
you're basically admitting you don't have any valid reason to defend that top 10
>>66338377
You can't even defend yourself and you're telling ME to get out? For every album Piero has on that top 10 there are at least 1 thats more deserving for the same reasons
>>66338302
>>66338303
alright, doing a top 10 greatest/most influential/important list then.
1. Pet Sounds - The Beach Boys
2. TVU&N (i agree with him on that one)
3. Sgt Peppers - The Beatles
4. Black Sabbath - Master of Reality
5. Neu! - Neu!
6. King Crimson - ITCOTCK
7. Talk Talk - Spirit of Eden
8. The Last Poets - The Last Poets
9. The Sex Pistols - Never Mind The Bollocks
10. Bob Dylan - Blonde on Blonde
>>66338329
I'm sorry you don't like it anon.
>>66338497
Honestly I like yours better
>>66338346
I know, they're still not top 10 material though.
>>66338497
People are going to dismiss this post because those albums aren't esoteric enough y'know ;)
>>66338024
>having any doors records in a top 10 is laughalbe
This is what plebs actually believe.
>>66338565
I know. typical /mu/ i guess.
>>66338574
It's true
Morrison's "poetry" sucks ass and the music isn't all that special either
>>66338497
>>66338595
Can you give any actual criticisms
>>66338574
Well scaruffi clearly doesn't care about influence on his list so yeah, the Doors shouldnt be on there. And that album specifically has aged like lettuce on a convenience store sandwich.
>>66338627
This has nothing to do with music taste.
>>66338497
that's a pretty good list safe for 8 & 9
people say the sex pistols are a bad band with huge influence, i say they're a good band with decent influence.
mine would look a lot different but i can actually respect this.
>>66338574
doors hatred is a new spicy meme straight out of the "It's Well Liked On Reddit So Now I Have To Hate It (TM)" culture
>>66338553
i'd say you could EASILY make a convincing point they are!
>>66338648
He (>>66338595)
is not (>>66338024)
>>66338658
>people say the sex pistols are a bad band with huge influence
This was my reasoning
>>66338336
>Its a hell of a lot more than you've done to defend it.
How do you know which posts in this thread are mine?
The whole institution of "objective" top 10s is pretty awful anyway. I don't think I've ever seen a major publication do a survey that isn't majorly biased.
At least Scaruffi's is just representative of his taste. In that capacity, it represents someone with quite unusal taste in rock who has introduced a lot of people to the likes of Captain Beefheart and Faust. Scaruffi being insane and claiming he thinks his is an objective list is kind of a separate matter but it's still generally more interesting than what most of the mainstream music press passes off as the best rock music ever made.
>>66338658
What's your list, btw? I know mine could be polished a little.
>>66338658
>doors hatred is a new spicy meme straight out of the "It's Well Liked On Reddit So Now I Have To Hate It (TM)" culture
No, the Doors have always been pure shit. Nothing redeemable about it at all.
>>66338497
as much as Blonde on Blonde is my favorite album of all time, Highway 61 Revisited deserves to be on the list far more
>>66338744
Why?
>>66338595
>>66338652
of course morrison wasn't the great poet people make him out to be, but you two are being intellectually dishonest. he is a good lyricist, great even, he just doesn't even come close to some like robert wyatt, leonard cohen, bob dylan, even tim buckley.
lou reed wasn't the greatest poet of all time either, but I think it is generally agreed upon that he was an amazing vocalist and lyricist.
how does someone like wyatt stand up to someone like yeats? or pound? well, not at all. it is not necessary.
by the way, it is easy to rip the doors and jim especially out of context, but the truth is that his greatest contribution to music was turning a concert into a theatrical play. he changed live shows forever and shows are undeniably an important aspect of music, even if a community like mew is so removed from that aspect.
he really was a shaman. in my opinion he was to some degree carried by his bandmembers who were all virtuosos and excellent musicians.
however, people saying the self titled doesn't hold up just send me into a fit of rage. it's a groundbreaking album and sounds as good today as it did back then. if anything their other albums have aged badly, the s/t hasn't.
>>66338707
There isn't a single post in this thread that has defended scaruffi's top 10 with anything other than
"nuh uh" or "thats not valid criticism" so I don't really have to know what your posts are.
They are representative of his tastes, but how does that justify "greatest"? It doesn't and you seem to understand that point in some capacity
Its more interesting? thats for sure, it doesn't make it a better list as it pertains to musical historical accuracy, which is what i was arguing for, you apparently weren't
I suppose Scaruffi's list is more entertaining and interesting and Rolling Stone's is more representative of rock history as we know it
>>66338721
i won't be getting into that, sorry. I aint the kind of person who just willy nilly does something like that, I'd have to sit down and think for one or two hours and I wna go to bed in a few mins.
>>66338730
>pure shit
>nothing redeemable
this is the expected level of discourse for the /mu/ meme community
Are hosianna mantra, trout mask, faust, and the doors the only good albums on that list?
>>66338832
not him, but I think what piero was going for with greatest was something like
>sonically pleasing
>conceptually interesting
>influential
>groundbreaking (new techniques, instruments, sounds, mixing that have never been heard before or refining commonly used techniques/tradition to the point where it is completely diff from the original)
>>66338800
I agree with what you've said except "s/t has aged better than their other albums"
That being said I don't know how scaruffi justified putting that in the top 10 over hundreds of other albums because his list clearly doesn't reference any sort of degree of influence directly
>>66338772
because it was more influential. LARS alone is probably the most influential rock song of all time, it practically changed the face of a rock and pop forever, not to mention the influence the album had on bands like the Beatles, TVU, and so on. Blonde on Blonde is arguably a better album, but the influence of H61 overshadows it by a long shot
>>66338858
>i won't be getting into that, sorry. I aint the kind of person who just willy nilly does something like that, I'd have to sit down and think for one or two hours and I wna go to bed in a few mins.
I feel ya. I need to go to sleep soon as well.
>>66338898
every album on that list is GREAT in its own right.
if you can't appreciate rock bottom or tvu & n I feel fucking sorry for you
really, not being able to like tbu & n is worse than crippling disability
i cannot even fathom what it feels like
what goes through your body when you listen to Sunday Morning? just nothing?
how is that possible? explain urself
>>66337811
Yet he is. This is some ass.
>Trout Mask Replica
Really? Like yeah I'll admit it's pretty cool, but it has quite a bit of filler time on it (though fast and bulbous is funny not gonna lie) and not every track is as intricate as people often give the whole album credit for ( a bunch of songs in between is just the guitars playing different chords at different times not even in a complex way or anything.)
>Rock Bottom
This album has serious cohesion issues. Yeah I get the whole "he was trying to go for what was happening in the cover of the album" or "he's talking about his fall" but even both of those ideas have more of a flow to them than just how jarringly this album switches styles. Not to mention that the first half is nowhere near as interesting as the second half both in terms of sophistication/complexity of arrangements and what the arrangements do.
>Faust I
Yes it's true that when this album came out there really was nothing like it. But looking at each section of the album individually we realize that from a composition perspective there really isn't anything new here. The jazzy parts are pretty amateur for jazz; you see a horn player like that in jazz that can't add a lot of rhythmic and melodic variation in his playing and he'll be laughed at. Speaking of jazzy sections, the first track's descent section sounds like a baby version of the Bitches Brew title track's descent part, except unlike the Bitches Brew version there aren't a bunch of different sounds and tempos going through to give that feeling of "oh shit what the hell just happened?" Don't even get me started on the piano parts it's mostly block chords that any newbie piano player can play with the occasional melodic move on the right hand. The composer Iannis Xenakis composed Concert PH in 1958. A lot of styles/sounds from it influenced Faust I. But even then Faust has nowhere near the amount of transitions and textures that Xenakis had so even the musique concrete part is baby stuf
>>66338922
i would actually agree with you there
purely on a "record" basis it didnt have that much influence
probably just put it there to say "fuck you, paul. fuck you, john. fuck you, ringo fuck you, george! here's some popular rock music!"
>>66338921
>sonically pleasing
Like TMR?
>conceptually interesting
Like The Doors?
>influential
Rock Bottom?
>groundbreaking
Fare Forward Voyagers?
I am cherry-picking I know, my point is that a good deal of these albums have glaring flaws in the range of what defines "greatness" whereas there are other albums that can be strongly tied to each of those criteria
Greatest is the wrong title for this list imo
>>66338977
You have some great points.
Opinions on the other albums on the list?
>>66338977
you put your focus almost exclusively on complexity and while scaruffi knows his music theory he realizes that this is just one tiny factors out of many
not everyone in faust was a trained musician (i actually know their drummer, a little) and they are not famous for their compositions.
if you really wanted to you could maybe even call faust 'art brut' or primitivism as they call it in music. faust iv hast those elements even more. like the sad skinhead for example.
I also disagree that their textures aren't interesting because sonically they most definitely are.
my personal favorite is IV, because it has jennifer, their best song.
>>66339071
>while scaruffi knows his music theory
>>66339008
honestly man I see your point. it's more of a scaruffis favorite list.
I could honestly imagine him calling it "goat" JUST to piss some other reviewers off.
god I love you, piero. never change.
>>66339097
are you gna explain yourself or will you keep posting memes?
Just so you guys can hate me some more, heres my top 10 influential/important jazz and classical lists.
Jazz:
1. Blue Train
2. Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus
3. Bitches Brew
4. In A Silent Way
5. Karma
6. Africa/Brass
7. Astigmatic
8. Money Jungle
9. Blues and Roots
10. Duke Ellington's Far East Suite
Classical:
1. Carl Nielsen's 5th Symphony
2. Telemann's Tafelmusik
3. Mozart's 29th Symphony
4. Bach's St. Matthews Passion
5. Guillaume de Machaut's motets
6. Phillip Glass' Violin Concerto
7. Corelli's Concerti Grossi
8. Brahms' 4th Symphony
9. Leonin's Sacred Music
10. Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
>>66339118
He's clearly musically ignorant, the fact he dislikes the Beatles yet praises TVU (muh ding dong) is proof enough of this.
>>66339008
>Like TMR?
Like The Doors.
>Like The Doors?
Like Faust.
>Like Rock Bottom?
Like TMR.
>Fare Forward Voyages?
The Velvet Underground & Nico.
>>66339167
Did you read the rest of my post?
>>66339140
>Nielsen and Telememe at all
>Matthew's Passion over the WTC or his other published keyboard works
>Mozart symphony instead of his piano concertos or operas
>Leonin instead of Perotin
>>>>>>>>Glass
>no Schoenberg, Mahler, Haydn, or Debussy
Embarrassing desu
>>66338977
>TVU&N
Everyone always remembers the high points on this album and how influential those high points were. But nobody remembers that the first two tracks were just shoddy attempts at pop music of that time. Like shit the rest of the album's great, but those first two tracks really bring it down.
>The Doors
They aren't bad, but at the same time they aren't all that standout. It's kinda hard to criticize this album because nobody in the band's really doing anything bad, but nobody's standout either, though I can see how Morrison's vocals captivated people back then in the context of those kinda vocals done in psych. Still not Top 5 worthy though.
Oh well, I gotta go. Maybe I'll do the other albums so day (I even like Popol Vuh and Pere Ubu so idk if I can even say anything bad.) Have fun, you avant teen faggots!
>>66339071
Not complexity, creativity. I am talking depth here, not technicality. You can't call Faust I primitivism they not only used high tech stuff from that time, but also attempted to have an atmosphere akin to jazz and classical (how the timing on certain piano stuff on the album's a good example of this.)
>>66339193
>Telememe
Can you do it without memeing? Try again.
>>66339227
Can you?
No one cares about Telemann, and you ignore key composers, like Wagner.
Don't be like Scaruffi and go into waters you don't know about.
>>66339142
thanks for giving me even more of a reason to disregard everything you're saying
>muh ding dong
keep talking in memes
>>66339140
that jazz list is just an abomination.
really? blues and roots and fucking asitgmatic over an album by hmmmhmm. CHARLIE PARKER? MONK? you couldve gone cecil taylor, or ornette or...
you left out swing, dixieland, big band almost completely
consider me triggered
>>66339254
>no one cares about telemann
Really?
>Ignoring wagner
it's a top 10, i had to make some painful omissions.
>>66339305
And you omit Debussy and Schoenberg, two radicals who changed the face of music as we know it, for Telemann and Nielsen, composers no one cares about (inb4 CLT comes and defends Nielsen.)
Not even to mention other composers more deserving of a spot than Glass.
>>66339281
>keep talking in memes
I guess I will.
Enjoy your 3 chords songs.
>>66339376
>>66339254
FUCK WAGNER
pompous piece a shit
Scaruffi threads are always a fun time.
>>66339420
Semite detected.
>>66339376
Glass is incredibly influential (so is debussy and schoenberg)
Nielsen is relatively unknown, i know.
Telemann is one of the acknowledged greats, you dingus.
>>66339420
Listen to Tristan und Isolde.
scarrufi is a pretentious hack who thinks America is falling into civil war
>>66339454
>Telemann is one of the acknowledged greats
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:By_whom
>>66338967
The velvet underground is a shit joy division/smiths-tier tumblr band and not serious music. Metal Machine Music was unironically better than banana
>>66339477
Influenced Bach, Händel, and a slew of up and comnig composers
>>66339491
>he doesnt even answer the question
youre a lame
>>66337811
Wait since when was John Fahey in Scruffy's top 10? I've literally never noticed that before.
>>66339532
Bach was more influenced by Vivaldi and various keyboard composers than Telemann.
As for Glass, Reich is a far better option if you want to add a minimalist.
OBJECTIVE LIST COMMING THROUGH
1. Trout Mask Replica
2. Rain Dogs
3. Ys
4. In the Court of the Crimson King
5. Faust
6. The Velvet Underground & Nico
7. Spiderland
8. Monster Walks the Winter Lake
9. Down Colorful Hill
10. Spirit of Eden
plebby? yes.
objective? absolutely.
>>66339281
>he doesnt like polish jazz
Your loss pham
