How come
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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
the only virtuosos that get shat on are guitar virtuosos?
why aren't any shitty saxophonists, or shitty trumpeters in the discussion of greatest at their instruments? meanwhile somebody always has to bring up Johnny Ramone or Kurt Cobain in the 'greatest guitarist' discussion?
what is it about this instrument that encourages mediocrity and suckiness?
if a guitarist played like John Coltrane, he would have SOOOO many detractors by default because playing those kinda runs takes a lot of technical skill
Nobody shits on guitar virtuosos, they shit on uncreative guitar wankers like malmshit
>>66152295
There are more well known Guitar virtuoso than far other instruments so there are more chances that they will be twats or some shit. Also gives them a larger ego as there is a larger audience
>>66152295
Like no one shits on Kenny.
>>66154050
lol wow. Pat Metheny so tough calling out KENNY G
calling malmsteen a virtuoso is kind of funny
he's a wanky shred head that writes awful music. pretty much all those wanky shred guys write shitty music and just impress people with their technical abilities. steve vai is just as bad as malmsteem, but at least vai incorporates a lot of techniques in his playing, malmsteem just picks a harmonic scale and its modes fast, trow in some sweep arpeggios here and there, and that's about it.
basically they write shit music. you have to look at guitarists like john mclaughlin or django reinhardt to see a blend of technical ability with interesting music
>>66154156
>>66153679
if you can't even give Yngwie credit for being a virtuoso you are exactly the kind of person OP is directed at
I bet you both play guitar and rationalize your lack of discipline/talent as being soulful or artistically superior
>>66154257
he's a virtuoso just like a computer is a virtuoso for playing scales at infinite speeds
when he does NOTHING of interest with his music, being a "guitar virtuoso" is meaningless
I don't deny his very admirable technique, I wish I could play blazing fast like him, maybe I could even make something interesting instead of wank
>>66154257
and i bet you are either a complete beginner at guitar or don't even play, and you're just impressed by some idiot playing fast
his technique isn't even good, he's sloppy as shit, you can find youtube guitarists with better technique than that hack.
>>66152295
Because virtuoso level playing is much easier on electric guitar than any other instrument.
Especially wank shredders like Yngwie who have such a compressed sound that they literally don't have to give a fuck about playing dynamics.
>>66154316
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvMKsgVBzMo
>>66154366
am i supposed to be impressed with a hack playing hack classical guitar? lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98y0Q7nLGWk
i literally just looked up "classical guitar" and this came up and it is infinitely better than hacksteem
They're either jelly or think they're above guitar proficiency
>>66154399
Also, the one and only:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ308aOOX04
>>66154366
>le faux-romantic classical shredder man
it sounds like boring hyper-deriative tripe
stopped watching when he played with his teeth for 0.5 seconds for muh hendrix meme
>>66154440
it is idiot music for easily impressed idiots who don't know the first thing about guitar
>>66154399
the good shit starts when he starts playing electric guitar
i dont care if you're not impressed, i just want you to know you're delusional for thinking this guy is somehow bad at guitar
you're just one of the people OP is talking about. You're shitting on a guitar virtuoso because it makes you mad for some reason
and if that guy had big hair and leather pants and was playing Paganini on a pointy electric guitar you'd find a way to hate that too
>>66152295
Anyone who thinks Ramone or Cobain are great guitarists is simply retarded.
>>66154470
lol
you are deaf if you can't hear the level of difference between a real classical guitar piece and hacksteems meme classical hackery
i don't shit on people with actual talent, malmsteem is a joke and has no talent.
>>66154470
the problem with malmshit is that he's a shit artist and people flock to him rather than actual creative, musical guitarists. like >>66154425 for instance. His fame is actually damaging people's interpretation of this instrument. Before the likes of Malmsteem, people playing fast were never seen as show-off because they weren't. Now they are, because the fucking shit that that Malmshit and co put out has helped push a whole counter culture of
>muh feels
>if I know theory it kills the purity of muh music
>muh guitar from the heart is always played sloppy and slowly like my hero kurt cobain
>and if that guy had big hair and leather pants and was playing Paganini on a pointy electric guitar you'd find a way to hate that too
because music starts to become pretty cringy to listen to when it's more about the ego-stroking of some 80's hair metalist than the music
besides, you would most likely never find
>guy had big hair and leather pants and was playing Paganini on a pointy electric
anywhere because those sort of people do not play that sort of music
>>66154457
op here, I know a lot about guitar. I can't play like Yngwie or Vai but I'm still impressed by them and consider them hugely talented. I've been playing for >20 years I'm actually pretty decent but not a technical player by any means
My personal taste in music isn't shredding stuff either. The only "shred" album I ever had was Joe Satriani Surfing with the alien and I never really listen to it
I can respect these guys for mastering their instruments even if its not my favorite kind of music
guitar shredders are overgrown manchildren
most people grow out of that shit
>>66154539
1980s neo-classical guitar has pretty much destroyed everyone's sense of what good guitar playing really is. those guys single handedly ruined it for everyone.
>>66154543
i pretty much can't stand any wank or shred guitar. vai is only interesting for the variety of techniques he uses, his music is awful other than that. malmsteem isn't impressive, he just runs up and down harmonic minor or it's modes fast and plays sweep arpeggios.
the only modern shredder/wanky guitarist i can listen to is guthrie govan, his own music is very typical and boring, but his technique truly is top notch and he can play in every style under the sun and knows what he's talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa7SBbBnqz8
this is p gud
>>66154617
what I'm talking about in the OP
Nobody calls Coltrane a manchild who should grow out of it
but every guitarist virtuoso who can shred is automatically shit on by hipsters by default
My own take on guitar ability is can you play the same thing acoustically?
Without tons of fx pedals and still make it sound at least ok.
>>66154680
Playing boring overlong shred solos and being a virtuoso are two different things. No one shits on Django Reinhardt
Most guitarist grow out of "shredding"
>>66154651
I wouldn't say Guthrie Govan is boring. Just listen to this man, I mean, come on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01gzVYDV5B8. It sounds original and refreshing.
>>66154680
because usually when you find a guitarist that can shred, that's all they fucking do
stop comparing these shitty shredders to john coltrane, coltrane didn't just stick to one single style and do the same fucking thing for 30 years
>>66154680
lots of ppl shit on coltrane and miles davis btw.
mostly because they're overrated hacks
>>66154717
it sounds too late 80s to me, i really don't like any of his original music. it's impressive only because i know how difficult that is to play.
>>66154717
Their last album was terrible though.
>>66154757
Why do you think that
>>66154757
Maybe overrated, hacks is really pushing it.
>>66154680
It's almost as though those virtuoso guitarists haven't made any music as good as Coltrane or something like that.
just go listen to shawn lane if you want a crazy ass shredder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ODb4yhKXY
it's very wanky music but it is so much more impressive than hacksteem
>>66154807
to be fair, nobody has
>>66154822
this guy is amazing
in b4 /mu/ thinks the guy from Jesus and Mary Chain is better at guitar than him
>>66154822
Speaking of Shawn Lane, please listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkLSoXSQcYQ. Even though he could play faster than anyone else, this performance is simply beyond words. It feels as though every note is ripping pieces of your heart. Truly a master.
>>66154781
not sure about coltrane but davis honestly thought he invented about 70% of jazz.
>>66154366
>those dud notes
>those theatricals
>>66154417
buckethead does alot of wank but he still writes some soulful and creative songs, unlike yngwie
>>66154852
it's nice but i still can't get over how '80s it sounds. those keyboard are so goddamn cringey.
it's not even so much shawn lane himself, in all his music the bass and piano are the instruments that make everything sound straight out of the 80s. i can't get over it.
>>66154908
Well, ok, I guess you just can't stand the 80s and I accept that. Too much metal fatigue, if you know what I mean.
>>66154906
Bucket got over his wank phase quickly, thankfully
https://youtu.be/rmNNfy7pBso
to
https://youtu.be/bHQmDqlv5Rc
>>66154941
i pretty much hate everything from the 80s, as soon as i hear all those early keyboard sounds and those farty compressed bass sounds, my brain just turns off and i want to break things
>>66154651
>neo-classical
Please don't use this term again until you read the Wikipedia page on Neoclassicisn.
>>66154986
What are you favorite bands and guitar players in general? Just curious.
>>66154366
Wow, he unleashed the fucking fury. But that was cheesy and way, way too long. It would be cool if he put his chops toward making music that's actually good.
>>66154993
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_metal
that's what malmsteem and guys like jason becker were/are, people classified them as neo classical. so go fight someone else about the label, i don't really care
>>66155026
django reinhardt, john mclaughlin, al di meola, nels cline specifically on the wilco sky blue sky album, and david gilmour for classic rock
>>66152295
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pxZuPLPERbk
I dunno how to answer your question lad but I reckon these guys are a good example of technical ability and good/interesting music
>>66152295
1. guitarists are actually retarded 90% of the time
2. this >>66153679
>>66155084
Daaamn, these guys are really interesting. I can hear some King Crimson in there and obviously Guthrie Govan.
>>66155084
i remember someone posting this in the /gg/ thread
they are extremly boring. their songs are just a bunch of strung together licks that don't really add up to anything and don't go anywhere, skip around the video and there's really no identity to any of the songs, they all sound the same and just mush together
>>66155084
this is a prime example why rock music will never become a serious art. i mean listen to this shit. it's just wankery at the highest degree trying to hack away the super weak songwritting
>>66155197
not all art has to be serious mr gay
>>66155084
>>66155133
why does everyone feel this? Chon feel as uninspired to me as any other shredders
>>66155197
(You)
>>66155197
that's more like an awful example of wanky geeky prog rock than anything.
their songs really are fucking awful, they aren't even songs, they just threw together a bunch of parts they came up with and called it a song.
this is the best melodic shredding I've ever heard
https://youtu.be/HKyT-wBdq5k?t=3m11s
Django is the only good thing posted in this thread.
>>66155498
I got you familia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx1Bh8ZvH84
>>66155804
Unironically better than Chon desu
>>66155833
Wonderwall is actually not that bad if you change the lyrics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjwRIjrC4io
>>66155940
>>66152295
Because Electric guitar "virtuosos" are put to shame by classical and flamenco guitarists in both knowledge of the instrument and ability.
Playing single notes quickly is not nearly as impressive as playing polyphony quickly.
By rights Isaac Albeniz' piano pieces shouldn't be feasible on guitar, yet they are now played more on guitar than the piano originals.
>electric "guitarists"
>good let, alone virtuosic
Pick one
David Russell is here to shit on delusions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHVl9TcT3YU
>guitar virtuosos
That's like believing in Mexican Intellectuals.
>>66152295
They are either bad at guitar or can't shred for shit.
They are just jelly.
"But although the leftward tilt of my politics back then was permanent, and although I figured correctly that too many young artists were getting cheated, anti-commercialism was never my line. I liked hooks and hits and DJ patter; I liked Motown and bubblegum; I preferred The Who Sell Out to Tommy. And because I'd heard a lot of jazz, I was underwhelmed by the cult of the guitar solo. So I firmly believed that rock wasn't about musicianship. It was about concept and short-fast-songs-with-a-good-beat."
Alright, let's you shittalkers get on Vocaroo and play Eruption for us.
Why do people who are supposed "masters" of guitar always make the same overblow shreddy shit, whereas people who are "masters" of bass or "masters" of drums always sounds completely different to each other?
Most rock guitarists have no knowledge of music composition and theory. If Keith Richards knows 10,000 notes, Django Reinhardt probably knew 30,000.
>>66157418
>>66157985
nobody is calling keef a virtuoso though
>>66158195
Alright, Eddie Van Halen.
>>66157418
intemexuals
>>66157631
Basically he's right.
1. Feels are more important than soulless technical wankery
2. Rock guitarists can't touch the best jazz/classical/Latin guitarists
>>66158239
https://youtu.be/A2I0a7EwWa8
i honestly would rather be able to play like Eddie. i admit that django is a 10/10 guitarist but Eddie is one of my favorites. his style is really wild and rock and roll compared to other shred players like Marty Friedman
>>66158299
But I can think of Gene Simmons, Glenn Tipton, and a bunch of other rawkfags who've said the same...short, simple, concise playing is better than mindless shredding for 10 minutes.
>>66154050
Specific examples of Kenny G being a virtuoso and not playing slow elevator music?
>>66158377
I agree there. Eddie's technique is pretty damn hard to replicate; not many rock guitarists can say that. A lot of the big guys like Keef and Jimmy Page have very simple techniques that it takes no great virtuoso to play their stuff.
Glenn Tipton's solos tend to also be very tough and technical to play.
>>66156754
>polyphonic playing on guitar at speed
jesus fucking christ
>>66158377
In the early days, he used to play with his back to the audience so you couldn't see how his technique worked. By this time (I guess from the 1984 tour?) he's ok with letting people see him play.
>>66157631
The more I read Christgau the more I realize he's got it all figured out. The man truly understands rock and roll
>>66158377
The thing is, most 80s shredders just poorly copied EVH without understanding anything but his most obvious tricks.
>>66157631
This is a pretty important thing to take in mind in his reviews desu senpai
I don't really agree with him but at least he has an idea backing up his shitty reviews
>>66158521
Let's not go that far. The guy's never been able to mentally process that metal (which he hates) fills the same niche as 50s rock-and-roll did, which was having songs that are fast, silly, and campy. Now you can't look at a band like Necrogoblicon and not see how Little Richard and Screaming Jay Hawkins originated the whole idea.
>>66158658
Punk fills the niche 50s rock n roll did, not metal
>>66158658
But not all metal is like that. A lot of it is Grrr, I'm angry and I want to destroy things and screw you, Mom.
>>66158691
punk/metal share alot of same dna. don't think punk rock would have happened if sabbath didnt make paranoid
>>66158691
I don't think that's a fair assessment because punk is primarily political while the 50s rock-and-rollers weren't. The idea of rock being political is entirely a 60s notion.
Maybe you could say Elvis was proto-punk, but most of the 50s rock-and-rollers were black guys with a distinctly campy, silly quality to them.
>>66158771
punk is not really essentially political
The Ramones were nostalgic for 60s and 50s rock and roll and wanted to revive that. Lots of hardcore bands just sing about random shit(Adolescents, Black Flag, etc)
>>66158771
Little of both. Scotty Moore (RIP)'s solo on Hound Dog does have a proto metal feel to it. I agree that metal and punk were not clearly defined until the 70s, but the roots of both can be seen in the 50s.
>>66158763
Punk borrowed more from the Stooges' heavy rock but I see where you're coming from. Sabbath comes more from psychedelic/counterculture rock and is slow and more virtuosic than most punk
>>66154366
>Now do it with the compressor off
>>66158852
this
i love punk but only political punk band I like is DK
angry samoans is my kind of punk band, completely nonpolitical
Yngwie writes some fun music and comes up with some awesome melodies, but he really is the most boring soloist as far as shredders go. Far Beyond the Sun is really enjoyable until it gets to a solo, and he just starts running up and down the fretboard aimlessly. I especially like when he can't figure out how to end a phrase and just bails out of it with an EPIC BEND into the tonic
there are lots of fast-playing electric guitar virtuosos who are well respected, like Allan Holdsworth
>>66152295
>virtuosos
Do you think playing guitar as fast as possible means that the player is a virtuoso?
>>66158889
That's why Christgau didn't like Sabbath back in the day. He associated them with that long winded, slow, druggy hippie sound that he didn't like because he's always had the idea that rock should make you want to get up and dance, not fall asleep.
>>66152295
The reason is quite simple...distortion covers up shitty technique. Other instruments are purely analogue but guitar has electronic and digital components.
>>66158468
True. Glenn Tipton is an underrated genius. Not KK Downing though, he has a lot of emotion to his playing but very little technique.
>>66157631
He's kind of right that if you listen to jazz, you probably won't find rock guitarists that impressive.
>>66158889
>>66158968
Ironic because Sabbath were basically anti-hippie, their message was that the 60s were over and the whole peace and love thing was rubbish.
>>66158705
So's punk.
>>66158440
Despite being a new age shit show, he actually is a pretty talented straight ahead saxophonist, theres actually videos of him shedding some bop tunes
>>66159058
Nah, fantasy and escapism are huge in Sabbath's aesthetic, it's really just hippie music in black and white instead of purple and green.
The Stooges were the ones saying that the 60s were over. Even then psych lived on as progressive rock which was hugely popular until 77 or so
>>66152295
That photo is as 80's as it is stupid
>>66155084
It isn't horrible. But they got don't really have any sense of theme in the music. Other than it sounds like an anime opening.
>>66158440
He holds the world record for longest sustained note on a saxophone (circular breathing)
Of course I respect him for being talented at the saxophone, but I also respect Adele for being a good singer; I don't respect either for selling the uncultured masses' fake, sterile idea of jazz/soul back to them
>>66159129
>>66159485
True fact: I went to the same synagogue as Kenny G when I was growing up, and he used to play in the house band during musical services. (And no, he didn't play in a new-age style.) I never found out who he was until later. I remember him being a better musician than everyone else, but I never heard anything I'd call super virtuosic or flashy either. I was attempting to learn sax myself at the time, so I could definitely recognize his superior tone though.
Another true fact: Kenny G has a christmas album.
>>66159129
>>66159485
>>66159851
I guess the reason I brought it up is that, despite hearing a lot of non-new-age Kenny G, he's still not a name that comes to mind when I think "saxophone virtuoso."
>>66159851
sounds made up
>>66154963
dog he has over 250 albums he covers every type of wank to every type of soul suring beautiful tracks
>>66159966
You can easily find proof that he's Jewish if you check. Beyond that, I couldn't find any online evidence linking him to my specific synagogue, so you'll have to take my word for it. This was in the early to mid 2000s.
>>66154680
>Nobody calls Coltrane a manchild who should grow out of it
I do.
>>66152295
guitar is one instrument
that has the hability to have many posers
the shit community is cancer
>>66160400
What did he mean by this?
>>66152295
I think a certain group of guitarists have like a secret club where they meet and discuss all the ways they can make their music lifeless and mass produced
Malmsteem is a proto-cuck.
His ENTIRE persona and carreer is modeled after Richie Blackmore.
Holy fuckign shit, how beta can you be?
>>66154257
Coming from a classical pianists' perspective, virtuosity is admirable but it's nothing that deserves credit. Every kid applying to college for music performance has the level of virtuosity that most of these guitarists do, technique is common place in the music world.
The thing that sets apart any musician of any genre is feeling and understanding of music, which these wanking guitarists seldom have. Coltrane is revered because he had technique AND feeling, there aren't many guitarists outside of jazz/classical who posses that.
>>66162205
The piano is a fundamentally different instrument from the guitar though, and a piece that's easy to play on the piano might be more difficult on the guitar.
>>66154156
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-ErUBbrRaw
the only good one is buckethead 2bh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl6nDzyXlto
You only need 3 chords to make a good rock song
And sometimes you can do with only 2
"One chord is fine. Two chords is pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz." -- Lou Reed
>>66154366
This was pretty fucking garbage, to be honest.
Half his notes didn't even ring. This was embarrassing.
>>66154861
miles davis was one of the front runners of bop and basically invented fusion, which combined took up ~40 years of jazz, so he wasn't really wrong
>>66152295
Problem with guitar is it's tremendously overpopular. Everyone and their mom wants to play it. Since it tends to end up appealing to the lowest common denominator of would-be musicians, you end up with legions of undereducated pseudo-musicians who have a vastly inflated sense of how challenging the instrument is and who obsess over things that aren't really that impressive.
>>66166045
this
also you need to think harder about why guitar is still popular in music today. it's not for its melodic capabilities. it's basically a percussion instrument.
>>66154366
holy shit that was so bad. Is this how you back your claim?
>>66152295
a guitar is a singular instrument.
you can arrange complex parts on a 6 string, but it should be accompanied/balanced by other instruments. Two guitars together can sound great too, if only with great interplay.
>>66159002
I see what you're trying to say, but you have no right to use words like "analogue" and "digital" if you don't know what they mean.
>>66152295
It's because those guitarists are the rock equivalent of listening to classical studies as a non-musician. Boring af.
Devin Townsend does it well, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMRPY7dfU3s
good guitar virtuosos don't get shit on because they aren't shit (holdsworth). i'd shit on a shitty sax player too, not every sax player is coltrane
>>66154717
his solo music is absolute trash. boring bland fusion. that said he is a scary good guitarist
>>66163653
What does that have to do with anything? OP is clearly talking about standards throughout all instruments and music.
>>66152295
>>66155084
This is interesting but it seems more like wankery than anything, even though it sounds nice.
I understand white boy math rock is supposed to be Jazz without the Blues, but if you take all the Blues out of Jazz you should sound like Allan Holdsworth, not this mess (albeit a pretty sounding mess)
It does actually sound like an anime opening, but this is the proper way to go about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUi2EW2_5iY
