Will hip-hop music ever be as artistically valuable as music from genres like rock, jazz, or classical? Pic somewhat related.
if that day comes i will stop listening to music all together
>>60788666
>rock
already is
it already is
if someone tells you an entire genre isn't artistically viable they have a chip on their shoulder and a stick up their dickhole
hip-hop is great and can be used to make great art as well as any other genre
It already is, OP
>>60788701
>implying any hip-hop album has reached the artistry of Captain Beefheart
K E K
E
K
>>60788732
Nobody said that hip-hop was bad. But will it ever be as good as "better" genres?
>>60788750
no hip-hop album is that frighteningly overrated, you've got that going for you
>>60788734
That album is good, but not as good as music from rock bands like Queen or Tame Impala
>>60788666
classical isnt even a genre of music. its a tradition of music dating back almost 1000 years in forms we recognize today.
>>60788750
this is just your opinion
>>60788773
this doesn't make any sense. why is hip-hop not a better genre if jazz and rock are? what makes them all so different?
>>60788777
you called?
>>60788822
well since all music can be rated on the same artistic qualities, will hip-hop ever have as much artistic quality as jazz or rock (genres known commonly as "art")?
>>60788898
yes, why wouldn't it? its all art, some people like some things, and others don't, all for different reasons. There are people who have listened to a lot from all three and like hip-hop the best. What is your definition of artistic quality?
There is a lot of "experimental" hip hop out there if that's what your looking for.
Jazz and hip hop are much different formally because a major element is rapping, If you consider the "height" of jazz to be free jazz, hip hop is just not going to go the same direction. Nobody is going to make semi formless 30 minute long hip hop songs of people playing with samplers and rapping gibberish.
Again with classical it's too hard to even compare the two.
and pretty sure captain beefheart and hipster shit like clouddead and sage francis could go hand in hand.
>>60788852
HAHAHAHA
>What is pic related
>>60788925
>artistic qualities
it's hard to define really. but think of acclaimed rock albums from the 60's, how those were innovative and had deep lyrical content. Will hip-hop ever reach the innovation and content in a way similar to rock albums from the 60s?
>>60788666
No. Hip hop is too lazy, simplistic, and dependent upon plagiarism to ever be interesting or intellectually valuable. It will always be an inferior art
>>60789121
>deep lyrical content
hip-hop already has this, clearly. as deep as any rock album you could find, although I wouldn't really look to music in general for great poetry/prose. there are people who dedicate their lives to just this
>innovation
yes. hip hop music altered the course of popular dance and turntable music. there are plenty of acclaimed hip-hop albums too. not really sure how 60's rock was particularly innovative in the grand scheme of things, just adapted things into a pop music form like hip hop did
>>60788734
>this dick aint free
>>60789161
>this meme ain't free
>>60789139
>plagiarism
yep, musical quotation was invented in hip hop. never used anywhere else... like maybe in all three of the genres/traditions OP mentioned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS6gF0qTz0M
>>60788822
>this is just your opinion
i have a math degree
>>60788852
>hip-hop
>>60789253
me too. music isn't judged as correct or incorrect like a proof is
>>60789211
awful
>>60788814
>but not as good as music from rock bands like Queen or Tame Impala
>>60788666
It already is lol. The only reason why people don't think so is because of white supremacy.
>>60788666
It already is.
Hip-hop just doesn't come off as artistic. Someone speaking poetry in rhythm with artificial drum beats and various audio clips played in the background. When it's described like that it actually sounds avant-garde as fuck, but in practice it just sounds like kid stuff, which it is considering kids literally do listen to it.
>>60789434
>Hip-hop just doesn't come off as artistic.
Opinion discarded.
>>60789546
>being this triggered
shiggy
>>60789591
do you want to be my friend? im lonly :/
>>60789735
No.
I don't like you.
>>60788777
>no hip-hop album is that overrated
to be quite honest most if not all hip hop albums are overrated
>>60789285
hahahaha show me hip-hop that is as artsy as TMR
I'd love to see this
It's a folk music, like country. Its purpose is to speak to the experiences of specific people in specific contexts. It can be just as valuable as rock, jazz, and classical. I think to some extent, the difficulty in comparing them is a matter of the background of the listener.
>>60789765
wow, treating me bad because i GO OFF on you for being mean to whites? not very gentlemanly
>>60789139
>>60789177
Hip-hop is essentially plagiaristic at its core, while other genres dip in and out of plagiarism.
ultimately at the end of the day, rock is an offshoot of blues, which is an offshoot of folk, and there are some similar patterns in there.
But hip-hop is almost *entirely* *completely plagiaristic* i.e. ripping whole tunes and rhythms, in their entireity. Take Kanye West's Stronger as a random example of a big hip hop hit by a big hip hop artist. A complete, unabashed rip off. At least Rock n Roll star might copy a riff from T Rex, but varies it greatly in the chorus and structure later.
Also, the way rock and blues rip off each other is more subtle than the blatant way hip hop rips off from other artistry.
Yes, ultimately rock rips off blues, but this is like saying ultimately a Michelin star dinner and a McDonald's are both food. Yes, they are both food, but they are totally different kinds of food.
Whereas hip hop is mostly just unabashed rip offs, because hip hop artists have less talent, that's why they're in hip hop which is as about image , toughness, coolness and marketability than it is artistry.
>the fact there's even a thread about this shows that hip hop is not as respected as other genres
No smoke without fire.
>>60789934
Even if they would post an album you'd most likely dismiss it because "ackshullay it's not artsy or as artsy as Trout Mask Replica".
>>60789969
it's not folk. black folk music is the blues
>>60788666
>>60788701
>>60788732
>>60788734
>>60788750
>>60788777
>>60788852
>>60788940
>>60788975
>>60789018
>rock
>artistically valuable
>hip hop
>artistically valuable
>>>/b/
>>>/reddit/
there you go, now please leave
>>60789992
Not that anyone would care but being an annoying shitposter won't get me to like you.
>>60790036
my head kinda hurts. anyone else? i might listen to deja entendu later B T W
T
W
>>60790006
I probably won't agree with it but I am actually interested in what they have in mind.
>>60789934
i probably can't, since I have no idea what you mean by artsy. It's just something you see as especially creative or something. there isn't a way I know of to objectively judge these things.
why is this end good in itself anyway? there are plenty of people who don't see tmr as good art, though I'm not one of them. You or I may hear something successful in its "artsyness" but others could hear failure
>>60790047
yeah? well maybe blacks and whites will never get along. like mariah carey and eminem, dude
>>60789992
Putting visibility on white supremacy is not being mean to whites.
Lyrically? It is already.
Musically? Probably not.
>>60790087
>artsy
Maybe just not "nigga nigga bitch bitch gun gun crime crime drugs drugs" over electronic plagiarised simplistic rhythms ? just a thought
>>60790147
>Musically? Probably not.
Death Grips
>>60790095
This is dumb as hell.
I find it suspicious how the first thing you'd post is "blacks and whites".
>>60790099
whites aren't even supreme. yeah there's still some racial tension and police corruption (effects all races btw), but white people aren't on some higher social echelon compared to blacks or browns. get realio!
>>60790147
lyricism is part of music
>>60790087
Stop overthinking it, m8. People know what it means to 'post a hip-hop album that in your opinion has equal artistic quality', it aint that complicated.
>>60788940
>Nobody is going to make semi formless 30 minute long hip hop songs of people playing with samplers and rapping gibberish.
I would listen the fuck out of that
>>60790155
Holy shit you sure got him.
>>60790168
are you not white?
![autechre021214a[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/X3N6VNs.jpg "autechre021214a[1].jpg")
you rang m8?
>>60790026
I mean it's a folk music in that it originated as the artistic expression of a group of people who are often disenfranchised, that requires skill but not formal training.
Hip hop serves a similar role for more recent generations to the role served by the blues in the past.
retarded thread
>>60790193
Yes.
Still find it suspicious.
>>60790192
sure did. I used to listen to hip hop, and that is pretty much all it is.
>>60790161
I very much disagree. I think it's poetry, commonly attached to music. Vocals are a part of music, undoubtedly, but I don't consider the lyrics as part of it.
>>60790223
Uhh I don't think you gotta be disenfranchised to make folk music...
>>60790227
i think it's good. does that make us enemies?
>>60790272
>>60790179
It was a response for this. Not that I agree with Death Grips, but I can at least see that argument being made.
>>60790277
no, I respect your opinion anon
>>60790273
No, but to be a folk music that's like country music, in that it has difficulty being respected as legitimate art, you probably do.
>>60790270
>pretty much all it is
If you listen to same mainstream radio rap then sure.
Holy shit. Double post.
He sure got BTFO.
>>60789993
>no smoke without fire
In the metaphorical sense, this isn't true. plenty of people make a fuss over nothing, or are just confused or opinionated. I'm not talking about rock ripping off blues. I'm literally talking about exact musical quotation. Listen to sinfonia, by Berio, here conducted by Boulez:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwJHu2gSj1A
This is a respected work that is built from connecting quotations. Now, listen to Kid Koala's song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnCihw9dZuE
The samples are completely transformed, and even harder to recognize that in the Berio. I don't care which you like more, if you think quotation is so bad you may just have an issue with music and tradition.
>>60790155
kek. I could spout the same shit about rock, and some jazz, and some raunchy baroque lieds
>>60790330
nah he really got me.I'm destroyed man
>>60790228
do you think that all the Black Lives Matter and the /pol/ and the red pill just make things worse? i think that we would all be cool with one another if we stopped surrounding ourselves with very firy hatred against others. i wish i could have a cute latina girlfriend, but i'm scared. does that make me a pussy, as if i couldn't handle a girl like that since i'm ethnically irish. ??? just som thoughts
>>60790326
Get a clear idea of what you want to say, then type it out.
>>60790272
I understand what you're saying, but who are you to say that the lyrics can't be part of it? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see why this genre can't be unique from others in that aspect?
>>60788666
Yes. As proved by pic related
>>60790347
do you think that all the Black Lives Matter and the /pol/ and the red pill just make things worse?
The whole black lives matter is that people don't want to be excessively beaten and/or shot by police. I wouldn't want that either, so I'm for it.
The whole /pol/ and red pill is dumb.
Redpill is nothing more than a group of deluded morons who've bought in to wedge politics based on race/gender/etc and happily attack people they've been told are different, rather than the real enemy.
I think that we would all be cool with one another if we stopped surrounding ourselves with very firy hatred against others.
True, but what can we do?
>i wish i could have a cute latina girlfriend, but i'm scared. does that make me a pussy, as if i couldn't handle a girl like that since i'm ethnically irish. ???
No? You're just a regular dude.
just som thoughts
What a shitty thread full of clueless idiots.
>Nah you know, I listen to just about everything... Except rap and country.
Learn to enjoy the genres for what they are. Hip hop can be just as creative as anything else. You are all just a bunch of high school kids who disapprove musical styles that don't involve technical proficiency at an instrument. Grow the fuck up.
>>60790346
>one example is the exception that proves the rule
I think quotation in music is yes, a part of it, after all there are only 12 notes. There's still an amount of it you can do and there's a way you can do it. It's not like everything you're going to do is going to be something that's done before - that's just being lazy.
You could spout the same, yes, but not about the majority of the genre as a whole. There are examples of it, but they either aren't mainstream or don't represent the majority in the genre.
And loving your sarcasm ; really burns me up d00d
>>6079030
I didn't say it's not unique. It is unique, in that it focuses in the vocals, and a certain specific delivery. That makes it unique to me. But not the lyrics.
When I hear a beatiful line I don't think "I wish I knew how to sing". I think "I wish I knew how to write poetry". To me that's just not a factor, to me a piece of music is based on it's musical ideas, tone construction, progression, harmonies and such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahgu2iJDXFI
>>60790501
are you being real faggot
>>60790487
but black lives matter are mean too. i thiink it's true that some of these black internet activists dont really want to be friends with white people and they just want to be mean to people or feel good by being bullies. but yeah cops are bad sometimes ill agree
>>60790531
>faggot
back to /b/
>>60790501
>don't involve technical proficiency at an instrument
This would be like liking a sports team who lack 'technical proficiency' at the sport.
Or liking an internet connection that lacked 'technical proficiency'.
Or liking cooking that lacked 'technical proficiency'.
Man, you are a fucking moron.
>>60790501
haha,,, you like COUNTRY/?? garbagio
>>60790542
okay sorry,
are you being real you fucking dipshit?
>>60790537
Oh god I hate it when people are mean.
But they do have white friends (cause I'm one).
>>60790545
No. Because music isn't 1. a sport, 2. a piece of technology or 3. a craft. It's art. Being able to wank up an down a fretboard at 300bpm isn't creative in itself.
>>60790508
>spouting
yep, just replace hip-hop there too. Even the majority of it isn't what you say. Mainstream rock isn't particularly deep either.
I don't think you get what I'm saying. Musicians in all genres intentionally quote other works they like/want to include. Its not about there being a finite number of combinations of notes, its about wanting to use quotation to do something in your work. this isn't even limited to music.
>12 notes
not true man. there are other temperements, note spacings, and frequencies in general musicians use across the world. it doesn't mean they think of quotation any differently
>>60790598
i didnt like tumblr very muhc. k bye
>>60790501
I listen to everything but rap.
Simply because beats tend to get old for me pretty fast. Not really a point "against" it, it's just not for me.
>>60790566
I'm being the dippest of shits serious.
>>60790660
Bye bye.
>>60790618
It's exactly the same. Music is not as subjective as you seem to think it is. There is a degree of subjectivity, yes, but the degree of objectivity is greater.
And wanking a fretboard fast is still a lot more creative and talented than 95% of all hip hop.
>>60790618
The argument is the same. The language isn't.
>dogs are blue
>blue things are cats
>dogs are cats
is the same as saying
>coffee is liquid
>liquids are gases
>coffee is a gas
If you don't realize this, there is really no point in you even having this debate.
In fact I'm the bigger fool for even speaking to you, which I am going to cease doing as soon as i finish this post.
Idiot.
No, all rap talks about is hedonistic nonsense like money bitches and drugs, it would have to evolve into talking about deeper things
>>60790747
>And wanking a fretboard fast is still a lot more creative and talented than 95% of all hip hop
Opinion discarded.
>>60790639
You can use quotation, and we do as musicians, and in lots of forms.
but we strive to keep original and try to limit the quotation ; if i wrote a song that was just a blatant rip of something, I would discard it.
Hip-hop artists don't appear to have as strict quality control.
And there are 12 notes, get over it. Semidemi tones are not notes
>>60790832
>Semi-demi tones are not notes
Yeah, fuck you, entire eastern world.
>>60790815
>all rap talks about is hedonistic nonsense like money bitches and drugs
Like rock huh?
>>60790821
Paul Gilbert > Kanye West
prove me wrong
Michaelangelo Batio > Drake
prove me wrong
Yngwie Malmsteen > Jay Z
Prove me wrong
Buckethead > Nicki Minaj
Prove me wrong
Anyway i said i wouldn't talk to that idiot again, so meh
>>60790885
>muh prove me wrong
Why compare them to begin with?
Shiggy
>>60790850
yee but at least there's skill involved
>>60790885
I can only agree with buckethead, if only because buckethead actually wanks as much as he songwrites.
>>60788666
Of course.
Think about all the absolutely terrible rock music in existence. Give hiphop 60+ years to grow and there is sure to be "artistically valuable" material there.
>>60790747
>>60790778
Being able to wank the fretboard so fast that cum spews out of the headstock has absolutely nothing to do with talent. Sure it takes a lot of practice, but it's a CRAFT. It's a tool you use for writing songs, just like music theory is. That is the creative part in music. I know a handful of people who can blast through all sorts of shit at blistering speeds but couldn't write a song to save their lives. Now tell me, how is that more creative than writing lyrics, putting together beats with drum loops, samples, effects, synthesizers etc etc.?
>>60790843
Doesn't make them notes. Notes are frequencies. There are 12. It is just a fact. There's shit in between but they're not notes. They're almost notes, or they're slightly flat or sharp of a note, but not notes.
And if eastern stuff was so amazing, why isn't it big here?
Besides, i do like Mongolian throat chanting and Yat-Kha, not as if I'm ignorant of this stuff.
>>60790916
Again:
Like rock huh?
>>60790953
yes theres is skill in rock music
>>60790941
Just because something more closely resembles a song, doesn't mean that person is as or more talented than a good musician.
Even if a great guitar player couldn't write their own material, they could be a great lead guitarist over the singer's songs, and add parts in. Jonny Greenwood is an example, in fact most lead guitarists fit this mould.
>>60790950
>Popularity denotes quality
El oh el, m8, to descent into demagogy into your second sentence, how flimsy does your argument have to be?
>>60790950
Of course they're notes. It's not like the 12 notes we use in the west are the only notes that exist. Notes are essentially just a way to simplify. It's much easier to say A instead of 440Hz.
>>60790996
Just like there's skill in hip hop.
>>60788666
No, Satan. Now stop it.
>>60790832
but how is hip-hop just blatant rip offs. yea, stronger is an offender of literally just playing a loop from a song over and over. but who knows, there could be a reason for doing that.
>strict quality control
what does this even mean? how is looping strong any different from the endless slew of I-IV-V-I, or similar progressions. these are just are just tools we use. do people have a different experience listening to stronger than the daft punk song? do people have different experiences listening to songs with identical chord progressions? probably
either way, hip-hop, or any music using quotations, isn't always in the camp of overuse or underuse, wherever any person happens to draw the line
>12 notes
yea, what >>60790843 said. also the temperements we commonly use today in western music aren't even agreed upon as perfect or anything, its just convention.
>>60790950
i like yat kha as well! the covers album especially. not my favorite throat singer though. and there are more than 12 frequencies... harry partch writes some music using 11 notes, akin to the Greek tradition. Many north indian musicians would also consider this statement ludicrous
>>60791032
there's a reason the beatles, mozart, etc are so well known, even outside of Europe. Cos they are good. simple dimple. people like to make music out to be this big complicated subjective thing but that's just bullshit mostly peddled by non-musical people who have penis envy of musicians. Music is 12 tones, and putting them together in ways that makes sense makes good music. It isn't complicated, and it's not subjective either (well, not entirely).
If you are a musician and your songs suck they suck and if they're good they're good, simple, and if you're good enough you'll no doubt become popular.
it really isn't as complicated as you seem to be making out.
>>60791105
you mention the beatles, and exclude one of their biggest influences, as well as one of the world's most famous and successful musicians. Ravi Shankar does not write music using the 12 note western scale. I don't even know of any academic musicians ive studied with or just talk to who even think this way
>>60791105
>the you have to be well known to be good meme
Discarded
>>60791025
Except that Jonny Greenwood writes his own music. Scores and whatnot.
>Even if a great guitar player couldn't write their own material, they could be a great lead guitarist over the singer's songs, and add parts in.
Well, you're sort of acknowledging my point there. Being technically good at guitar does not equal being creative. Applying it to the writing/improvisation process of a piece of music is being creative. Do people really not understand that?
>>60791105
also, george harrison himself was sued for plagiarism i believe
>>60788666
I love how rapfags aren't even trying to go after Jazz or Classical.
>>60791251
t. rockfag
>>60791251
>Implying rapfags would even know the first thing about either of those.
>>60791266
>M...m...muh rock
There they go again! The absolute madmen!
>>60791241
Yes but applying technical good guitar playing does involve being technically good. say i've got a simple song and a good musician adds lead lines, and a middle 8. And they do this with technically good music. this happens a lot.
Besides that, there's a basic bar level of technical knowledge and competence in most genres of music, (in hip hop and rap it's lower, but hey. Who's counting?)
memeity meme
>>60791343
>muh jazz or classical
ebin memes /b/ro
hiphop is objectively the best genre
>>60791148
I wouldn't call Shankar one of their biggest influences. They met him basically half way into their career. As for influences, beyond Within You Without You on Sgt Peppers, cant think of any sitar stuff.
So that's horseshit, lets see what else you said
He writes in notes that could be applied to the 12 note "western" scale because his scales are within that. They just miss the odd note here or there.
Not that complex, dude!!
>>60791414
explain this in terms of 12-tone music please
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality_diamond
Yes, they met him halfway into their career, and his influence went beyond playing the sitar. Your idea of "odd notes" isn't some sort of weird exception, Indian music uses more than 12 tones in many of its scales. I don't know what to tell you here, you're just wrong about this.
>>60790885
Good job comparing mainstream hip hop artists to ones with actual talent. What happens if day, I replace Kanye with El-P? Jay Z with Madvillain?
>>60790519
OK cool I wasn't the only one thinking of them.
>>60788666
There's no such thing as Artistic value.
Everything art related is subjective, get this through your head you fucking degenerates
