Since the inception of rock music as an uninteresting break off from Jazz, not a single album of rock, pop, rap, electronic music, or any other genre of popular music has done anything that was not already done by either:
1) classical composers
2) jazz musicians
3) avantgarde composers
Years before them.
The reliance on the redditors of this board upon popular music is a testament to why threads and discussion here are such shit.
haha true >.<
>nobody on /mu/ can prove me wrong either
I wish there was a better place for music discussion.
>>60755896
(not true, by the way)
>>60756260
great proof
>>60756035
>complains about the state of the board
>without even trying to argue and make a case
I think you should just leave this place for good.
>>60756287
I put my argument in the OP.
It's up to you shitposters to attempt to prove me wrong.
what avant garde composer made rock music before chuck berry???????????????/////
>>60756278
OP doesn't have proof either
>>60755896
Please tell me what classica, jazz and avantgarde composers did to forward the use of FM synthesis in composing atonal and dissonant sounds for glitchy, abrasive contexts.
I would like references to certain musicians, members of groups who performed or innovated these ideas, dates and instruments and technology used.
When you're done, I would enjoy hearing what classical, jazz and avantgarde composers did to innovate the concept of plunderphonics, I.E. using other pieces as the building blocks for your own inventions and works. Again, references to musicians and dates would be lovely.
I'll wait.
there's a difference between innovation and doing it better
>>60756333
Pierre Schaeffer and Karlheinz Stockhausen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Psx24n3rM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9pOq8u6-bA
Along with of course Pauline Oliveros and other electronic music pioneers making music from around 1930-1950
>I would enjoy hearing what classical, jazz and avantgarde composers did to innovate the concept of plunderphonics, I.E. using other pieces as the building blocks for your own inventions and works.
Nigga that's as old as the Renaissance in stuff like L'Homme Arme Masses and Charles Ives works from last century
you're so fucking stupid
>>60755896
What is the classical/jazz/avant-garde equivalent of Trout Mask Replica? Who made an album like that first?
>>60756411
Varese's Ameriques and Ionisation, Charles Ives' most dissonant music, Stockhausen's Gruppen and Penderecki's Threnody are all prior to TMR.
Not to mention Ornette fucking Coleman.
>>60756380
Good arguments, I'm glad you linked works as well.
however, these musicians do not appear to be using FM synthesis, which is a form of sound engineering. Therefore you didn't do what I asked.
Furthermore, you ended your argument with an ad hominem and didn't even attempt to actually prove any points, I would enjoy a written reason as to why you believe the works of Stockhausen have any possible comparisons to perhaps the works of /F.
Your thread and responses have pretty much proved nothing and haven't contributed to the thread that you yourself started in the first place.
Try harder next time.
>>60756466
Explain how FM synthesis is a paradigm shifting musical idea, because unless YOU can link examples I'm going to have to say that it's a minor innovation at best.
Vivaldi is not innovative compared to Monteverdi.
>>60756380
Oh, I'd also like to add that you didn't actually tell me what they did to innovate plunderphonics. You just name dropped and then berated me for not knowing that. That's not how you get your points across. Have fun being stuck in the past.
>>60756466
"You're so fucking stupid" is just an insult, not ad hominem
>>60756493
>You just name dropped and then berated me for not knowing that.
Well yeah, because that shit's very obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of history beyond 1950.
You aren't ready for this argument, but if you give a bit of effort maybe someday you will be.
>>60756487
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8DZWIYw0hw
Consider this track. Tell me if you know anything that sounds like it.
Vaetxh composed this track through a number of experiments, one such being a program that forces every sound to the exact same amplification, causing odd distortions and reverb tails that normally would be unhearable.
The invention of today's technology means there is an entirely new dimension of sounds and ideas available for use. Even if inspiration and the ideas behind the music are similar, the sounds, methods and reasons are not. Someone who actually appreciates music would realise this.
>>60756543
Sounds like the Stockhausen I linked earlier with a beat. This is not a fundamental shift in paradigm: this is an evolution of prior innovations from classical/avantgarde music.
I want the difference between this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dVPu71D8VI
and this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjpFi9bn1do
>>60756591
I'm glad you explained your stance.
Evolution is still moving forward. Like I said; "Even if inspiration and the ideas behind the music are similar, the sounds, methods and reasons are not. Someone who actually appreciates music would realise this"
>>60756728
You would think, however, that popular music by now would have a truly innovative work.
Jazz had Miles Davis within its 50 years. Where is popular music's? Nonexistent. Likely never to arrive either.
>what is use of guitar feedback
Outta here you double nigger
You do realize jazz is popular music, right?
>>60756849
Not an innovation in the slightest.
This is noisier than any electric guitar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8
>>60756870
Highly debatable. I consider it (along with historians/academics) far too different from the rest of popular music to truly consider it a contemporary. It has a performing tradition for fuck's sake.
threnody for victims of hiroshima is kawaii and pretty as a daffodil
ain't even no blast beats or any screams
penderecki a shit
a shit
>>60755896
Well I mean Rock musicians made Rock Music, so...
>Since the inception of rock music as an uninteresting break off from Jazz
Stopped reading there. Rock evolved from Folk and Blues.
Also, Rock was the first genre to use electric guitars and distortion pedals, introducing a hitherto unknown timbral vocabulary. Rock was the first Anglo music that had African drumming in it. The drumming in North American Jazz being derivative of Western Folk tunes, marches and whatnot since Black slaves weren't allowed to play drums, unlike South American Blacks, which is why the drumming in Latin Jazz is so different from North American Jazz. Rock is also the first genre of Popular music to explicitly explore taboo subjects. It's also the first genre of Popular/Folk music to demand strict adherence to the original lyrics, vocals, riffs, tempo, solos, timbres, etc. Before Rock, Common Practice Period music was the only music that demanded this, Popular/Folk music being much more flexible and with much less emphasis on originality; so much so that lots of Blues, Country, Folk, Rhythm and Blues and even Jazz pieces were collected from (multiple) popular sources.
>>60756961
>Rock is also the first genre of Popular music to explicitly explore taboo
Meanwhile other music has done this or centuries
>>60755896
obviously.
>>60756887
>It has a performing tradition for fuck's sake.
And popular music doesn't??
Jazz is/was always very mainstream, it wasn't like avant-garde/classical composers where many people didn't know who they were and they didn't sell millions and receive universal acclaim. Everyone knows who Miles Davis is, not nearly as many people know who Stockhausen is, that's just a fact. I think it's pretty pretentious to try and act like jazz isn't popular music just because you think it's artistically superior to other popular music.
The thing about popular music is that even though it doesn't innovate in the sense of doing something COMPLETELY new, it still has many important works that reconmtextualize themes of art music and bend genres in ways that haven't really been done before. Yes you could always argue that a certain vocal style or instrumental has been done before but that doesn't mean popular music's greatest albums aren't important. There's a difference between something having been done similarly and having actually LITERALLY made the same album before.
Like yeah you could argue that the singing and instrumentals on TMR had been experimented with before but Beefheart was the first one to do something like that in an album format. I doubt there is any classical work thhat actual sounds like TMR.
>>60756728
Don't use the semicolon if you don't know how, it makes you look stupid
>>60755896
>>60756035
>>60756305
>MY OPINION IS FACT
>>60756961
>rock was the first genre to use electric guitars
nope. not even close.
Jazz and Folk music were the first to use electric guitars, their use was pioneered by Les Paul, an inventor and prodigal country/folk guitarist, whose name emblazons one of the most popular electric guitar models ever made.
>>60757132
>rock was the first genre to use electric guitars
>their use was pioneered by Les Paul
>les paul is a genre
>>60756748
Beefheart
>>60755896
One word: Nirvana
>>60755896
I never heard any of {1, 2, 3} produce psychedelic dance music, bass music or vaporwave...
>>60757170
I have no idea what you're trying to say. Les Paul was a person, who played primarily folk and country music. Gibson introduced a solid body electric guitar bearing his name in 1952, long before the hey-day of rock music, and long after the invention of the electric guitar, which was in 1931, BTW.
OP, you're clearly out of my league in musical knowledge, but I'll give it a go
1 - how about IDM/Ambient loop-based music? I hardly imagine any classical composer pioneered that style, and certainly not the other two unless you look at it with a really broad view. The invention of keyboards and DAWs allowed new form of music to be created that hadn't previously been considered.
2 - how about lyrically dominated folk-rock in the wake of Bob Dylan for the last 40 years? You could say that originated in folk, and folk was just dumbed down jazz, but that doesn't necessarily mean all folk-rock uses the same techniques that were pioneered in jazz.
OP's argument is fundamentally flawesd from a discussion point of view because anything that could be considered innovative (eg the realm of sonic representation) doesn't matter because it shares base similarities to earlier works of music.
>>60757410
right, it's like saying there are no new scientific ideas because they're all built on prior discoveries
>>60757272
1 Satie, Riley and other minimalists
2 lyric prioritized music can be found in the religious works of Palestrina
>>60757410
>>60757485
Read the thread
>>60757884
so i see what you're saying about art vs pop composers, and I largely agree about the innovation front. However, art music of all ages borrowed a lot from the traditional music of the region. Like lyric prioritized music comes from the idea of verbally passed down traditional songs.
>>60758010
>However, art music of all ages borrowed a lot from the traditional music of the region.
I have no bone to pick with traditional folk musics. If this board replaced p4kcore with, idk Appalachia-core then it definitely would be much better for it.
