Discuss and analyse lyrics and themes on Divers (or Joanna songs in general)
"no"
All the songs are stories. That's why the first song is called anecdotes
forward slash thread
it's about time and shit
>You can buy it for three fivers
>It's my new album called Divers
What did she mean by this?
joana trollope
>>60381499
> And we cut facsimiles of love and death
>(just separate holes in sheets
>Where you cannot breathe, and you cannot see)
Love and death are the "holes" in "sheets"(life?) that let us peak through the darkness under them give it meaning and clarity. Without them, we're just lost blindly scrambling in the dark.
Does that make sense, or am I just seriously reaching?
>>60381681
this isn't funny desu senpai
I wanna analyze her sweet bouncy ass
So is it widely accepted yet that Joanna Newsom is one of the all time greats or is she going to need more albums still?
>White star, white ship–Nightjar, transmit: transcend!
White star = dwarf star, the final stage of our sun, the end of the lifespan of the earth, representing the end of our time.
Whiteship = ??
Nightjar = Someone suggested that Joanna might have chosen it because the species is most active between the Night and day, representing the time before the end and beginning of time.
Transmit, transcend = pretty self explanatory, she wants to transcend the ultimate fate of the universe.
It's also structured like a radio transmission.
>>60381774
I think it's more that she needs time than more albums.
I don't really care, tbqh. She's my favourite current artist whether /mu/ or reviewers like her or not, and I'd rather discuss the content of her music than its "worth".
>>60381808
i believe white ship is a reference to a lovecraft story
>>60381841
What story?
Think it might be related to the ship in Waltz too?
>>60381865
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Ship_%28story%29
>>60381841
>>60381865
Nevermind, didn't know the story was literally called "White ship"
Not sure what its significance would be though.
>>60381904
its been a long time since ive read it but i think birds played a part in the story
Damn, I was hoping this was a White ship
I can't fucking stand her voice. Why is she popular?
>>60381704
idk why he posts it everytime it was supposed to be a one off joke
Any idea about these lines?
>A shore, a tide, unmoored–a sight, abroad:
>A dawn, unmarked, undone, undarked (a god)
A dawn undarked is probably the beginning of time. Not sure why "(a god)" though,
A shore? She treats time as a rift or a divide at times, and as something that can be explored/
>>60381956
because believe it or not theres more to music then someones voice, and also not everyone shares your exact opinion on the qualities of one persons voice
>>60381956
Because she writes good music and works in meticulous detail with great arrangers and is basically peerless when it comes to lyrics and her singing is very expressive even if it doesn't have the most pleasant tone
>>60381956
I'm the OP of this thread and I couldn't stand her and her voice for years, and thought she was just quirky hipster bullshit with no actual substance.
Then I tried listening to her songs while reading the lyrics, and she's been one of my all time favourites since.
>>60382003
>basically peerless when it comes to lyrics
This. I can't think of any current musicians even in her league.
Well I'd love to OP, but this BITCH (pic related) for SOME REASON decided I'm not allowed to LISTEN to her music. I looked on Spotify, Google Play Music, Amazon Prime Music, and now Apple Music and the only fucking SONG OF HERS I can stream is that SHITTY MUPPETS THEME SONG. Who the FUCK does this cunt (pic related) think she IS?
By the way, am I the only one who gets CRAZY vibes from her? Looking at her pictures I just get this sense that she's fucking BATSHIT INSANE. Like she's all giggly and smiles in public but when she goes off stage or the last guest in her house leaves and she's out of the public eye she fucking BREAKS DOWN and throws a bitch fit and curses her friends/family members out and they're all TERRIFIED of her and do whatever the fuck she says because otherwise she'll probably try to STRANGLE them.
Seriously just GOOGLE IMAGES her and look at her photos, I think you'll see what I'm talking about. Even in pic related. You guys envy Andy Sandberg, personally I PITY the man.
>>60381980
Her music is cool and all but it's nothing mindblowing. It's not like she's redefined music. Everything she's done has been done before. There's no denying there's cool bits here and there, but there just is no rational sense for me to be deeming her a perfect musician like everyone is doing.
>>60382069
She may be crazy, but she seems pretty normal from interviews and stuff I've seen. I don't really care. Love her music but I don't waifu her - not into women. Divers is my AOTY for sure, but I'd rather fuck Andy Samberg than Joanna Newsom.
>>60382134
>deeming her a perfect musician like everyone is doing.
I haven't really seen people do that. Maybe waifufags do it though.
For me, what sets her apart are her lyrics. I don't know of any that I enjoy remotely as much as hers.
what is Monkey and Bear talking about
>>60382181
an emotionally abusive relationship
>>60382181
its the darkest story of betrayal ever told
>>60382201
Monkey did nothing wrong.
>>60381499
the whole sci-fi stuff was pretty cheesy, as was the entirety of Time as a symptom
Goose Eggs, Sapokanikan and Divers are amazing, though. A pin-light bent and You will not take my heart alive were so similar in theme, narrative and mood they feel redundant.
I actually didn't know Same Old Man and that's probably why I didn't have mixed feelings like apparently everyone else did. It's amazing how well it capture what seemed to be her state then.
>>60381588
makes sense
>>60382242
wew, that's a rude thing to say
>>60382181
It's pretty much exactly the story of "The Awakening".
>>60382181
In Emily, Emily teaches Joanna about the stars and constellations and Joanna puts them to rhyme so she could remember. Monkey and Bear is about the constellation Ursa Major (aka the "great bear" constellation). Monkey and Bear is literally her putting what Emily said to rhyme so she could remember.
>>60382243
>makes sense
Thanks.
I actually loved the sci-fi stuff.
I can see why Time as a Sympton could be cheesy as it kind of treads the line for me, but I just ended up loving it. Can understand being on the other side of the line though.
I don't really see Pin Light and You Will Not... as that similar in theme, but You Will Not... is easily the weakest song on the album for me.
What do you think is the significance of Goose Eggs in the larger scope of the album?
>>60382243
i loved the sci-fi stuff, it was really cool to see it used it a more"traditional" way. i mean waltz has some big sci-fi ideas sure, buts its still basically a song about a woman mourning for husband who's gone off to war
its not like there's some prog metal suite about a space pirate or something
>>60382337
>its not like there's some prog metal suite about a space pirate or something
Joanna Newsom prog metal when
>>60382337
>i loved the sci-fi stuff, it was really cool to see it used it a more"traditional" way. i mean waltz has some big sci-fi ideas sure, buts its still basically a song about a woman mourning for husband who's gone off to war
This, I loved both the kind of anachronistic aspect of it, and how it blended classic Joanna stuff with kinda high-concept sci-fi. Both things I love, and didn't expect to see together.
>>60382347
Joanna Newsom rap album first.
She said she listens to more modern rap than indie/rock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ship
Could this have any significance?
I couldn't really find a link myself.
>>60381977
Ignoring the reference to Finnegan's Wake, sometimes I get the feeling that these single nouns or images are manifestations of the "moment of your greatest joy" mentioned earlier in the song.
>>60382416
I'm not sure I see that to be honest.
It seems to be a a journey mostly backwards through time
>Joy! Again, around–a pause, a sound–a song:
Describes the album itself? If you play it "again" it circles "around" with a "a pause, a sound-a song"
>A way a lone a last a loved a long
Reference to the last line of Finnegan's Wake(which I am too pleb to have read, but I've heard that some of the themes in it are similar to hers on this album). It also has the last sentence joining onto the first to complete it.
>A cave, a grave, a day: arise, ascend
Jesus died and came back.
>(Areion, Rharian, go free and graze. Amen.)
Areion was the horse of Dimeter who taught agriculture to humans at the Rharian fields
Represents the start of human civilisation?
>A shore, a tide, unmoored–a sight, abroad:
A shore on the sea of time? The beginning?
>A dawn, unmarked, undone, undarked (a god)
The very start of time.
>No time. No flock. No chime, no clock. No end
Before time.
Not sure about the Finnegan's wake bit, but it seems to be moving backwards.
>>60382316
>Monkey and Bear is literally her putting what Emily said to rhyme so she could remember
She already does it with the chorus in Emily, though the constant present of astrology throughout the album could be traced to her relationship with her sister.
>>60382335
What I love about her use of extravagant imagery was that is was always extremely analogical or used for setting a tone of existential awe, but some of the sci-fi stuff in this album seemed to miss that. Most of 101st Lightborne sounds like it relies just on world-building, and I can't seem to find any greater meaning in the album's ending. I get that it fits in with the idea of cyclical time, but her being morphed out of the explosion of a dying star? How does that pose any sort of resolution to what was presented throughout the album? Seems like it's based on problem-solving and happy endings when most of her work, including most of Divers, was about self-knowledge and growth.
For example, and to answer you question, goose eggs isn't really a narrative piece, but she presents both her current state of alienation as well as the scenario that caused it.
Also, I'll reiterate to add that Anecdotes is very, very good.
>>60382243
>>60382243
>deep down where your fight is waiting,
>down 'till the light in your eyes is fading
Is an example of what can seem cheesy, I suppose if you just hear the lyrics as a call to be courageous, rather than correctly as the singer coming to a painful acceptance of death and decay.
The whole song is a pattern of seemingly base exhortations immediately followed by subversions or complications.
>Same Old Man
Yeah, and in an album about time and the decay of memory and the shifting and amalgamation of identies and all that, it's practically obligatory to have a cover of an old song.
>>60382582
>I can't seem to find any greater meaning in the album's ending.
I think it's the most straightforward one in that respect (maybe that's why you don't like it?) - it's just showing that time can't be controlled and colonised like space can, and in trying to do so the sailors unravelled.
What do you think Anecdotes is about? That ones still a bit of a mystery to me.
>>60382582
>She already does it with the chorus in Emily
Right, but it's to an even greater extent in Monkey and Bear. What I also find interesting is how she uses "thee" in Emily to make the the rhyme sound more old timey and singsongy, and Monkey and Bear in a similar way seems very fable-like (especially in the opening)
What does the "pearl" represent in Divers?
I think it was the times her lover gave to her his full attention, instead of being caught up in his own thoughts "under the sea"
>>60382701
>What I also find interesting is how she uses "thee" in Emily to make the the rhyme sound more old timey and singsongy
im pretty sure shes specifically mentioned that she only used "thee" because it rhymed, and regrets that so many people use it to call Ys "medieval" and "old timey"
>>60382825
She specifically mentions using it to make it sound singsongy,
>And the use of 'thee' I think only happens once, in "Emily", that particularly made sense to me because it was part of the three-part singsongy sort of rhyme, and that made sense to put thee in there, because within that tiny little section it seemed really appropriate for the tone
>>60382864
ah sorry I must have gotten mixed up
>>60382578
mmmm, what I meant to say is that, while being too lazy to look up the original lyrics and analyze each line's individual meaning, the *stylistic* choice of a series of singular nouns is to emphasize a number of "moments" in time taken as indivisible points. You can link it back to earlier parts as I have done (and if you could not then I'm sure Joanna would not have sung it), but it stands on its own and can be considered on its own as you have done. While inspired by Finnegan's Wake and a dense assortment of other literary references, it has a force which is interpretable to the non-literary listener and such a response is what I was describing.
The following up of "in the nullifying, defeating, negating, repeating
joy of life" and "the moment of your greatest joy sustains" by this exultant "Joy!" cannot be ignored, essentially.
>In martial wind, and in clarion rain,
>we minced into battle, wincing in pain;
>not meant for walking, backs bound in twine:
>not angel or devil,
>but level, in time.
This lyrics mystify me. Singing about time and space and all that guff was already confusing enough, so why did she have to bring angels and devils into it? And not even dwelling on it for longer than a moment, argh!
>>60382701
>but it's to an even greater extent in Monkey and Bear
I mean, the chorus in Emily actually sounds like a little piece to help you remember the differences between a meteor, a meteorite and a meteoroid. You could use it in a test if it were actually correct.
I don't get that intention from Monkey and Bear, though. The only thing it would help you remember is that there is a constellation with "bear" in its name.
>how she uses "thee" in Emily to make the the rhyme sound more old timey and singsongy
I mean, you could isolate a new idea that could be taken as working to that effect every 10 seconds of Ys. Archaic or
>>60382657
> think it's the most straightforward one in that respect (maybe that's why you don't like it?)
I think so. It's a story finisher to a piece about metaphysics and human behavior, which just sounds very unfitting to me
And to me, anecdotes is about a soldier who, when nearing death, longs for freedom, which he sees in the form of a bird (albeit the form of freedom for which he longs is also unobtainable by a bird). Joanna draws multiple parallels between the two (right down to their names) and throws herself into the mix in the last verse, which I take as reference to her miscarriage/ abortion, as she talks to her daughter as she is just in a far but reachable place.
This doesn't cover every single line in the track but this is what I've gathered
>music discussion on /mu/
oh boy this feels weird, you guys are cool
>>60383154
this is just how Joanna threads go, for whatever reason
Also I wanna thank this thread for reminding me I hadn't listened to this in 2 weeks and that when "rushing dragging speeding home" kick in with the harp that shit is fab
>>60383227
>this is just how Joanna threads go, for whatever reason
Her voice acts as a pleb filter
>>60383043
>And to me, anecdotes is about a soldier who, when nearing death, longs for freedom, which he sees in the form of a bird (albeit the form of freedom for which he longs is also unobtainable by a bird).
Oh I think that reading might make the most sense! Thanks.
What would you say this line means
>I was only just born into open air
Also linking this: http://genius.com/albums/Joanna-newsom/Divers
Some of the annotations on that are actually really useful, though there a those that are either stating the obvious or totally reaching.
>>60383154
>music discussion
To be fair, we're just discussion lyrics.
Maybe we could turn up some music theoretical aspect of Divers, or some dramatic way in which the lyrics perform a counterplay with the music that may elucidate their meaning?
Did anyone get around to figuring out that album-wide harmonic scheme she said she had implemented across the tracks?
>>60383154
Yeah, I was surprised when I made a Divers lyrics thread a couple of weeks ago and I actually good some really good responses and helpful anons that made me remember why I still bother with this site.
Has /mu/ always been this shit or have I just started noticing it more recently?
>>60383313
*discussing, gah
>>60383227
>"rushing dragging speeding home" kick in with the harp that shit is fab
Yeah, the first half of anecdotes might have been my least favourite on the album (music-wise) but from that bit on it's amazing.
>>60383335
It's just very fragmented in how different users turn to different threads.
For example, compare the atmosphere of a K-Pop thread to a /bleep/ thread to a share thread to a Joanna thread to a so on and so on...
>>60383040
>not angel or devil,
>but level, in time.
death is the great equalizer
>>60383379
That makes sense - I've been using /mu/ much more casually lately, so I probably just haven't found the better threads.
I've noticed the same with /co/ which I use a lot currently - some threads grab all the /tv/ and /pol/ types of posters and are a cesspool, while others are fun and interesting discussion with people that actually know comics very well.
>>60383043
>I mean, the chorus in Emily actually sounds like a little piece to help you remember
I'm actually not trying to argue that it's meant to literally be a mnemonic device. I'm just saying it's a strong connection between the two songs that in the first one she says she puts the things she tells about the stars her to rhyme, and the following song is a song about a specific group of stars.
>I mean, you could isolate a new idea that could be taken as working to that effect every 10 seconds of Ys. Archaic or
I'm not sure I get what you're saying here, but she definitely uses "thee" purposefully because the rhyme was supposed to be singsongy (as she says herself in the interview). I added old timey because that's how I saw that bit, and I think that's reasonable considering "thee" is literally an old timey word.
>>60383388
What's You Will Not Take My Heart Alive about?
I feel like I get it, but I'm struggling to really put it into words.
>>60383292
Genius is such a nice idea but it can be so pompous. Some contributor was downvoted 4 times for daring to suggest that Only Skin had a sexual subtext - can you believe that there are people who don't think Only Skin is about sex? And the other annotator who got all the up-votes had this dry and rather naff Cliff-notes interpretation that it began with a "soldier's dream" and completely ignored how all those lovely multilayered meanings play together an ensure that the song evades such a definite linear, narrative.
Anyhow. I really like the annotation that shows the visual similarity between a broken vase and a broken eggshell. Here, let me find it and post it for you:
http://genius.com/Joanna-newsom-goose-eggs-lyrics#note-8037944
>>60383292
I think you have to take that line in along with
>In the folds and the branches
>Somewhere out there
>I was only just born into open air
As he's dying he enters a form of denial regarding his own death, disputing more and more the strictness of time, life and his perceiving. He is dying, but maybe, somewhere obscure (which, in his context of a trench war, he represents as folds and turf) he is being born against all likelihood. Some alternative reality shit, possibly
>>60383488
>Anyhow. I really like the annotation that shows the visual similarity between a broken vase and a broken eggshell. Here, let me find it and post it for you:
>http://genius.com/Joanna-newsom-goose-eggs-lyrics#note-8037944
I was reading that just last night actually!
I think I remember some really stupid annotations on Only Skin that imo got rightfully downvoted, but I'm not sure if that's what you were talking about.
But I also remember some guy that got downvoted for pointing out that "small death" means orgasm in French which I thought was pretty relevant, so I see what you mean,
>>60383512
Yeah, that makes sense, and especially in the greater context of the album which deals with multiversal possibilities.
>>60382316
That might be part of what went into Monkey and Bear, but I'd say that saying that's what it's about is a major reach. I interpret Monkey and Bear to be about the nature of abusive relationships.
>>60383488
>>60383599
Actually, I was thinking of this annotation on Only Skin that was really bad
>She is willing to do anything for her man, even having a threesome! Even when he fails to appreciate this (idiot) she continues to try to please him.
Also the useless Abortion annotation that spans multiple verses.
>>60383662
Oh yeah I didn't mean to say that's what it was about. Really I just thought it was an interesting connection between the songs.
>>60383599
yeah, denying the "petit mort" reference to me is insane
>>60383699
Only Skin definitely has a lot to do with the physicality of a relationship but I think people go way too far trying to read everything in it as explicitly sexual
What's Divers about?
Pretty sure the Diver and the Pearl and metaphors.
>The divers and the sailors and the women on the pier
My best guess is:
Sailors=sailors from Waltz, ie, those that seek to control time
Divers=Those who spend time lost in things like their own thoughts and dreams instead of enjoying life for what it is???
Women on the shore= Those who stand by and let time pass naturally and live in the moment
>>60383699
Oh, okay, that is a rather bad one, with a just downvote. I didn't get that far through the annotations, as I closed all Genius tabs in a fit of disgust! I shal have to sign up there and provide my own votes.
>>60383755
>I think people go way too far trying to read everything in it as explicitly sexual
Yeah, this is my problem too, it's stupid to deny the sexual nature like >>60383739
but it's also possible to go too far with it.
>See how the infinite divides
>And the divers are not to blame
>For the rift spanning distant shores
>You don’t know my name
>But I know yours
I remember another anon wondering about the meaning of these lines but I don't remember anyone coming up with an explanation
I think the "rift" is time itself.
a bit off topic, but i'm reading about only skin on genius...
>And there was a booming above you
>That night black airplanes flew over the sea
>This is an incredibly suspicious turn of phrase – it sounds a hell of a lot like a reference to In The Aeroplane Over the Sea, a 1998 album by Neutral Milk Hotel generally considered to be a major early indie classic.
really guys
>>60383870
To me there seems to be a theme of separation in that song, where even though she's physically near someone they're mentally and/or emotionally apart. So I see that final verse as her basically admitting it's no one's fault and simply the nature of time.
>>60383911
kek.
I see a lot of eyeroll worthy ones on genius, but imo the decent ones make it worth bearing through them.
>>60383911
Joanna does love ITAOTS and jeff mangum
But yeah that's quite a stretch to think it's an ITAOTS reference
>>60383825
I guess a big thing that bothers me is people always think of it in terms of just sex, but there's a much bigger net you can cast with just romance and sensuality. Two people pressing against each other in bed, sharing a passionate embrace, etc. It ain't just about penises and vaginas
>>60383917
Yeah, that was basically my takeaway too, though I like your way of putting it better.
>Who gave to me a jewel
>Worth twice this woman's life, though it cost her less
>Than laying at low tide to see her true love phosphoresce
These lines kinda stump me for some reason.
>>60383795
>I can't claim that I loved you first
>But I loved you best
>I don’t know if you loved me most
>But you loved me last
>You don’t know my name
>But I know yours
What bother me is, are these lines interchangeable, bound only to the rhyme scheme? Or do they take their place in some kind of sequential narrative structure?
Can someone explain what she means by
>Time moves both ways
>>60383947
The imagery makes me think of a wedding ring
>>60383947
The emotional pain of seeing her lover slowly drift away outweighs any material joys, or something like that
phosphorescence is a light source that fades out very slowly over a long period, like a glow-stick. I imagine that's a relevant detail. Her lover isn't just going on a trip, she's watching him slowly become more and more distant
>>60383512
>in the folds and the branches
Describes a tree.
Describes a trench structure.
Describes a branching, nonlinear understanding of time.
What a headfuck of a song.
>>60383970
Don't forget
>I can't claim that I knew you best
>But did you know me at all?
I saw it as having a narrative importance.
The first is more focused totally on her love for him.
Then, his love for her, but it seems weaker than hers, a sign that she's more into it than he is.
Then, she seems to finally admit this, and questions whether he was ever interested in her at all.
Finally, with the last two lines it feels like she's finally accepted the reality of the way things are, and even if he doesn't know her, there's some kind of hope (imo) in the way "But I know yours" is phrased.
>>60383988
Ah okay, so the joy he gives her is worth twice her life, but it's still not worth the pain of feeling him fade away from her.
>>60383973
Please?
It feels like it should be obvious, but I'm not getting it.
>>60383911
>>60383970
I don't think it's an ITAOTS reference, but I see the parallels between two albums
>inspired by european folk music
>deals, along with many other themes, with existential shock ("dumbstruck with the sweetness of being" and "how strange it is to be anything at all"), which are reflected on the freakishly magnanimous music.
>Unique use of metaphors based on consistently drawing from the same conceptual pool
>>60384077
to me that thread is an "infinite regress", a concept she mentions early into the track (look it up if you gotta). She is constantly backing up on her statements. First, she can't say she loved him first, but then, he loved her last, then he doesn't even know her name.
>>60384125
fuck, that's a good interpretation. Also, it seems that the jewel is a product of his diving. Diving, in pin-light bent, represents the inevitable movement towards death, the lack of temporal transcendence
>>60384258
>to me that thread is an "infinite regress"
Oh, that totally works!
>>60384258
>Also, it seems that the jewel is a product of his diving
Yeah that's a good point. Diving is what's taking him away from her, but it's also what drove her towards him in the first place.
Still not quite sure what Diving represents on that track though. I don't think
>the inevitable movement towards death
really works for Divers.
>>60384258
Both albums also have themes of death and rebirth
I don't really have anything to add, but this is a great thread.
>>60383911
another stupid one:
>–and daughter, when you are able
>Come down and join! The kettle’s on
>And your family’s round the table
>Will you come down, before the sun is gone?
someone wrote multiple paragraphs about how this is clearly a reference to Donne because he wrote a poem that played on the sun/son homophony once http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173371
>>60384258
>the freakishly magnanimous music.
You can't use that word this way. I think you meant to write Mangaminous!
I've only listened to Divers and I really liked the closing song. Where do I go next?
>>60385198
Oops, my bad. English is not my first language.
I could say they share a perceived freakish grandeur, then.
>>60385245
Ys & HOOM
I was surprised to find this was recorded by albini
so seriously is drag city now the official label for muppetcore?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acI_oP07RIU
>>60386740
Ys was also recorded by him
>>60386776
ah. this was my introduction to her.
and I was pretty blown away
