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...Keith in a dogfight? Would they win?
>>14382290
It would bea cold and snowy dayhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80XAJKqRU9k
>>14382290
That would depend on what VF's they were flying.
>>14382290
Same VF Yes.
They're VF from that they later used yes.
Most likely yes.
>>14382290
Bitch please.
Max would manage to outmaneuver him with the Macross Quarter because loljenius, Isamu would style all over him with his "outdated" YF-19 and have some real fun to actually fight a decent pilot.
Keith only has a chance against Isamu if Isamu is using a VF-1 due to the massive gap in technology.
>>14382667
You only say this because of fanboyism. Because you don't accept Delta as good enough, so everything in it has to be weaker, less skilled, etc than the parts you fanboy over
In reality though Keith pulled of a super human feat that we can't really know as ever had an equivalent in Macross piloting. It could very well be that Keith is the biggest monster of a pilot that we've had so far in Macross. I'm not personally of this belief just yet, but my point is rather that all you have is "No, because I like Max and Isamu more"
>>14382673
The same could be said of you, downplaying their proven accomplishments because of your own bias against fanboys. Both Max and Isamu still have better track records than Keith's singular BOOM HEADSHOT.
Max and Isamu would have years of experience(Max, about 60 years of experience, Isamu, at least 20 years), while Keith has like at best, less than 10 years?
Sure Keith can pull off superhuman shit, but that's arguably due to him having Winderemerean superhuman physique and reflexes in the first place. Hell, their runes seem to function as a radar as well. Would Keith be able to pull the same thing off if he wasn't a Winderemerean?
Max and Isamu's reflexes and instincts are honed by decades of combat experience, at the very least, they should be able to keep up with Keith and anticipate his actions.
Max's age by the time of Delta(70+ years old?) is probably a problem, but even if he lost, you have to note that Keith and his superhuman physique and reflexes was fighting an old man and his slower reflexes and weaker body, the odds were stacked against Max in the first place.
>>14382673
>You only say this because of fanboyism.
Duh, of course, you aren't any different.
Besides, Max is the de facto paragon of excellence in-universe so that's not even a question and Isamu is the closest thing to Max together with Basara, but Basara is a pacifist.
A better question would be, would Keith dance to the Planet Dance?
>>14382686
That's the most pathetic retort I've ever seen I think.
>>14382694
Since when was I a fanboy of Keith? I even said I don't think he's top dog. I just don't want to dismiss him out of hand because I like Max more and can't entertain the notion that there may be bigger fish out there
>>14382690
> Would Keith be able to pull the same thing off if he wasn't a Winderemerean
Not him, but why would that matter given that he's never going to not be a Winderemerean? Also, Isamu really doesn't have much accomplishments to his name. Not unless the movie finale is much different to the OVA one at least.
>>14382704
Its exactly the same
>>14382690
>Max's age by the time of Delta(70+ years old?) is probably a problem
Does Max even show physical signs of aging?
>>14382290
Did anyone else wonder why Messer didn't just continue shooting during a head-on pass after seeing the drone shield the guy still flying straight at him?
Max.
His power is maximum.
When you say your mech's stats are "maxed out" or your character is at "max level" you're comparing them to HIM.
There simply is no such thing as being above max.
>>14385285
The var syndrome was probably fucking him up
>>14382736
HIs....his hair got longer. That's about it
>>14382704
>Isamu doesn't really have much accomplishments to his name
>flies a variant deemed too difficult to fly for plebs
>saves the original macross from getting btfo
it's only because the whole sharon apple thing became hush hush.
>>14382290
Could Keith defeat Brera in his 27?
The real question is...
Could Keith defeat Amuro?
>>14385428
no.
Amuro and max are basically the two best pilots within their franchise.
>>14385444
Uso is better than Amuro.
>>14385428
Depends. Does Amuro have his bits? Is Amuro suffering from Newtype autism? If no to the former and yes to the latter, then yes. Kieth will sacrifice his drones in order to kill Amuro.
>>14382667
VF-19 from Wings is actually heavily modified up to Messiah/Durandal standard.
>>14382673
It depends. Them in their prime? I would say Max is a non brainer, thou Keith with song buff/wind is scary good. But give Max Fire Bomber backup and it's back to pure skill contest, where I would say experience would win.
Isamu is a wildcard, similar in that regard to Hayate but with actual military training and years if not decades of combat experience plus superior physical abilities, considering how he had flown YF-19 in +, without ICS. Again in this example, old guard seems to have somewhat of an edge and again, 1 on 1 is closely matched with a bit of a bias on Max and Isamu. Add fold shenanigans and picture changes.
>>14382690
And this.
>>14382704
>Accomplished combat pilot before Supernova
>Accomplished mercenary pilot post Supernova
>so good to actually be able to leverage his own custom valkirie - and then bully series of upgrades to keep said valk on par with newest prototypes.
>much accomplishments
I would say Isamu is the most experienced combat pilot in macross universe, with Max having less stick time only because he is better executive officer and will rape enemies with his Battle 7 most of the times.
>>14382736
Not really.
>>14385285
His valk as at high angle of attack and simply didn't have time to face Draken in time?
>>14385351
Don't forget that before Apple incident he was few time promoted and demoted thanks to his combat proves and insubordinate nature.
>>14385357
Now this is an interesting question.
Same/comparable plane, maybe. 27 vs Draken, oh yes.
>>14385428
Yes. It is not question of skills really, Draken just outclasses anything Amuro had ever used. Banagher in FA Unicorn is a better candidate.
>>14385600
And actually uses Gundam that might stand a chance against Delta times Valk.
>It's a powerlevels thread
>>14386080
Not really. Too many variables to consider and we still haven't saw spec sheets on Delta's hardware for any sensible discussion. Now, if OP asked who could defeat Keith in, say, knife or swordfight, it would be a rather short thread. As it is now, it's wishful thinking mostly.
>>14386078
What about Isamu's YF-29?
>>14386154
I really wonder why it is YF and no VF.
Ok, regardless.
Isamu's isn't antivajra-optimized, so no MDE weaponry, less emphasis on fold quartz and less jury rigging with VF-25 parts. To be honest, I have no idea, by logic it should be superior in specs to Alto's.
and it has a bayonet on that bigass gunpod.
So, stabby time.
>>14382290
I think Isamu and Keith would be about even in terms of piloting skill. Keith's rune would be rock fucking hard once he saw Isamu fly, though. Isamu feels the wind like a motherfucker.
I legitimately think Max would probably win against Keith in a dogfight, though probably not as easily as others have said. Keith's drone shennanigans are going to seem much less impressive against a survivor of space war one who is used to fight against 12:1 numerical advantages on basically every mission, and Max has some dirty tricks up his sleeves too.
Max basically invented turning into battroid in the middle of a dogfight in space to surprise the shit out of the enemy and blow away groups of people. I'm fairly certainly he could come up with a trick Keith wouldn't see coming until it was too late.
And, lets be honest here. Max has been an ace at piloting VFs for longer than Keith has been alive. Max is the guy who defolded into a canyon, blew past a blockage singlehandedly that was previously holding off an entire attack force of VFs, dodged an array of defense emplacements in a narrow tunnel at high speed with very little room to maneuver, and then planted the bomb.
That act of piloting, alone, is more impressive than anything Keith has ever done. And we are given to understand it was the first time Max had touched a VF a decade.
>>14385428
wouldn't even an old VF just dance circles around even higher tier gundams like NU?
>>14387000
Yes. And Keith's VF is high-end enough that they wouldn't even notice that Minovsky was a thing.
Something outright magical like the Unicorn or the Quant might give them some pause, but any traditional Gundam is almost depressingly underpowered against Frontier or later era VFs.
>>14386154
Canonically, both Isamu and Ozma never had their own YF-29. Only one was made and it was for Alto.
>>14386204
>I really wonder why it is YF and no VF.
Because it's a prototype and was never mass-produced.
>>14387066
Depending on M30 status.
>>14387067
Wasn't it supposed to be used like VF-22? Alto's was ad hoc hackjob based on Messiah but two other were limited production models?
>>14387000
Looking at pure specs, yes. Look at it this way - VF-1 is only Valk not capable of achieving earth orbit unassisted. with late FAST packs even it can do it, while in Gundamverse, we got Wing suits, some random UC stuff, 00 GN driven units and Reconquista/Turn A, which are so far into the future of the timeline that comparable valks would be flying around using warp drives.
This is talking about grunts.
UC has awakened Unicorn which could probably tank Macross cannon shot or two, Wing has Zero system which seems like neat contra to Ghost/cyborgs/windermere problem. Energy weapons seems to be at least comparable, thou late UC is fucked with it's lack of sensible protection against physical attacks.
I have no idea how Gundam stands on inertia cancellers. I dimly remember something being said about 00 Gundams in that regard.
Quanta, fully utilized, would rape even Delta valks, amusing Setsuna/Veda is piloting. Functional precotgnition and teleport are bitch to top. Then song buffs kick in an we get UNDERSTANDING.
>>14387219
The Quanta's powers are all quantum mechanics based, right?
I wonder how it would be affected by proximity to the quantum scrambler cannon used by the Macross Quarter. In Macross terms, its just a weaker version of the Macross Cannon that requires far less power, but I can't imagine quantum teleportation would be happy in a battlefield where it has been used.
>>14387219
It's worth noting that even the Unicorn has some limitations which could render it worthless against a variable fighter, namely that it's use of the psycoframe is situational and in the OVA it's possible because of excess energy from the colony laser. It also couldn't stop the colony laser on its own and needed the help of the Banshee to do it. It may also still have the Nu's limitation, which was that the psycoframe only caused the Axis Shock because of it's close proximity to the Sazabis (or Banshees in this case), with both being overwhelmed by human will.
>>14387219
>UC has awakened Unicorn which could probably tank Macross cannon shot or two
I kind of seriously doubt that.
The Colony laser, while very powerful, is still just a laser. You can bend or interact with light using conventional physics.
Even if it was a particle beam, the Unicorn is still dealing with matter and energy. These are things that can be blocked or manipulated.
A Macross Cannon does not shoot energy or charge particles or anything like that. It is what Macross calls a 'superdimensional weapon'. It DESTROYS SPACE in a line, using an intentionally shitty version of the same technology that allows their FTL to work.
The only thing that has ever been shown to stop such an attack is what is called a 'fold fault', which is a region of space where the very fabric of spacetime in folded up on top of itself to form a semi-solid barrier, because then the space-destroy chain reaction gets wrapped up in the fold fault and sputters out instead of passing through it.
Without that incredibly specific defense, the area that the Unicorn occupies would cease to exist, with the Unicorn ceasuing to exist along with it, followed by the spacetime that used to occupy that space turning into pure energy and exploding as it tries to normalize back into realspace. Not a single atom of the Unicorn would survive.
The Macross cannon is a goddamn absurdly powerful weapon.
>>14387219
Isamu and Ozma's YF-29 were created only for the game.
Official lore on the YF-29 states that only one was made.
>>14387465
Didn't the Protodeviln tank Marcross cannon shots without any kind of fold faults?
Why does nobody ever bring Guld up? Sure he had anger issues and will blame you when he almost rapes your childhood friend, and sure he exploded, but he's still a damn good pilot that downed the Ghost and the YF-21 is a damn good plane. Which makes me wonder, is the 21 with the brain wave set up the perfect VF for a Newtype?
>>14387482
Yeah but, those are protodeviln. Didn't they have some sort of shield? Besides, they'll probably do what Gepelnitch ndod and reidrect it via fold like he did with Max's reaction warhead.
>>14387502
Because Plus gave us reasonable proof that Isamu > Guld. Honestly I feel like faggots bring up Isamu too much. I don't think he would have had shit on Max.
>>14387219
>VF-1 is only Valk not capable of achieving earth orbit unassisted
At the very least, all variable craft, with the exception of the VF-0 (due to its conventional engines), can reach the edge of space over an Earth-type planet. However, some of them will not have fuel left to continue past that.
The only ones unable to achieve true escape velocity on their own are the VF-0, VF-1, VF-3000, VF-5000, VF-9, VA-3, and VF-11.
>>14387502
Because he's dead, like Roy.
>>14387527
People dont bring up Roy when talking best pilot, because we have Max from the very same show
>>14387482
One of them did, yeah. But the bodies that the Protodevlin were using were biologically engineered weapons that were said to be some of the most advanced weapons ever created by the Protoculture.
Frontier revealed that the Protoculture basically stole all of their most impressive technology by reverse engineering the biology of the Vajra, which has such an impact on Protoculture advancement that the Protoculture basically worshipped them.
The logical conclusion is that the Protodevlin's bodies were Vajra-based, which means that space-bending defenses like fold faults are a totally viable part of their wheelhouse. The Macross 7 fleet just never would have noticed them because the existence of fold faults wasn't discovered until later, when Earth developed more advanced fold sensor tech.
Glavil could have been using Fold Faults the entire time, and the M7 fleet never would have known because they lacked the technology to detect them yet.
>>14387535
Even if he could have used them, it's still being dishonest to say fold faults were the only thing to river stop super dimensional weapons, since while it's possible it's not definite he did. Mostly because they probably weren't imagined then, but something besides them stopped one regardless.
Did anything else ever stop the VF-27 or YF-29's heavy quatum gun for that matter? They're just a smaller version of the Marcross Cannons, but work on the same principle, so if something blocked one, it'd be worth noting.
>>14382290
>...Keith in a dogfight? Would they win?
In a dogfight against what?
>>14387556
>heavy quatum gun for that matter? They're just a smaller version of the Marcross Cannons, but work on the same principle
Incorrect. They fill the same role as a main cannon, but operate on different principals.
The Macross Cannon destroys space. The Quantum Gun just twists it up a bunch and lets that warp and shatter anything that was there at the time. Much less energy intensive, but not as devastating.
>>14387581
How do the guns on variable fighters fill the same role as a Marcross cannon? Also, I'm pretty sure the Marcross Chronicle lists them all as one type of weapon with different names, not different weapons working on different principles.
>>14387602
He means the quantum gun on the quarter.
>>14387613
Okay, but I didn't ask about that one. I specifically said I wondered about the ones on late model anti-Vajra variable fighters, since them being blocked by something else seemed far more likely.
>>14387556
>Did anything else ever stop the VF-27 or YF-29's heavy quatum gun for that matter?
Not really.
If they are firing in full auto, the shots being blocked by stuff like PPB is very possible.
The (presumably) high power semi-auto shots, they don't really use them all that much unless they took time to line up a shot as opposed to just spraying in full auto and adjusting their aim as needed.
Most of the time they dodge shots as opposed to tanking them.
>>14387623
>>14387649
Every valk prior to Lucifer used physical munition in it's gunpods. VF27 sports, if I remember right, heavy particle beam cannon*, so basically overcharged railgun. Even in Delta beam turrets are secondary weapon.
Reason seems simple - instead of rebuilding whole weapon system, SMS only had to modify ammunition.
As for effectiveness, just watch Delta, arm guns on Drakens and Siegrieds seems to be plenty effective on everything, PPB or not.
Is it matter of cost effectiveness or is it that easy to negate various beam weaponry on valkirie scale, no idea.
>>14387556
>VF-27 or YF-29's heavy quatum gun
Mauler RÖV-20 20mm beam gun
Quarter has twisty quantum tuning fork.
>If they are firing in full auto
So far no variable fighter came with full out beam weaponry, except for head laser and secondary hip armament. Lucifer was capable of somewhat greater rate of fire with its gunpod in low power mode but extended it needed few seconds to charge. In Delta same thing can be observed with energy gunpods and if Frontier is any indicator, pretty much only heavy AA/antiship turrets can shoot semi instantly, without energy build-up.
*Maybe
>>14382673
>In reality though Keith pulled of a super human feat
>He shot a bullet through a plane's canopy and into the cockpit
That was an alarmingly frequent occurrence when dogfighting was still a thing, you know.
>>14389128
When dogfighting was still a thing, the average fighter couldn't even bust mach 1.
>>14389128
>fire an automatic weapon in the direction of another plane, a few of the rounds happen to pass through the cockpit area
>fire one single round, after a blind approach (remember, the Ghost and resulting smoke blocked Keith's vision as much as they blocked Messer's), aimed with pinpoint accuracy at the exact center of the pilot's chest
Not quite the same thing.
>>14389111
> Every valk prior to Lucifer used physical munition in it's gunpods.
No, they didn't. The VF-4 Lightning III had two large beam pods in it's nacelles that acted as it's main gun, though it could also have a separate beam gunpod. I don't know if any others had beam gunpods, though I do know the VF-14 Vampire had beam pods in the wings like the Lightning. It had a standard physical ammunition gunpod with it normally to though.
> VF-27 sports, if I remember right, a heavy particle beam cannon*, so basically overcharged railgun
You remember right, or mostly right, since they're called a heavy quantum gun, but are wrong about what it is. It looks like a railgun, but it works the same as a Macross cannon.
> Even in Delta beam turrets are secondary weapon
Those ones are almost certainly not the same as the heavy quantum guns on the VF-27 and YF-29. The Siegried is actually a step down in many ways from both the Lucifer and Durandal and a lot of the stuff SMS and the Galaxy Fleet put in their fights isn't in them. The Draken has some technological advancements, like being able to fold natively, but even that doesn't have all of them.
> Mauler RÖV-20 20mm beam gun
That's not it's beam gunpod, just a secondary weapon it also has. It's beam gunpod is called a heavy quantum gun by Luca in show the first time it's seen used, and the Durandals is listed as a heavy quantum gun in it's specs.
>>14389111
>Every valk prior to Lucifer used physical munition in it's gunpods
False. The VF-4 didn't have a gunpod but had beam cannons in the arms.
>>14389191
>>14389196
I knew posting during finals without any sleep will finally bite me in the ass.
Killing that edgy
>war must always be serious at all times NO FUN IN THE VALKYRIE FUCK YOU HAYATE
prick was a good choice
So...how do you think Mirage and Hayate will fair against Keith in episode 13? Looks like they're gonna go at it.
Could Keith defeat Basara?
>>14397217
I doubt it. Basara flew a stock VF-1 and a stock VF-19 using an acoustic guitar the first time he ever tried, and did a good bit of evasion in both. He even had a full fight in the VF-19 while just using the acoustic guitar to control the VF. While playing it. And singing.
>>14395510
>Messer
>edgy
>>14385351
> saves the original Macross from getting BTFO
He really didn't. Not only was he the only one threatening it (and the one to damage it in the end, not save it), Sharon makes it clear she has no intention of hurting him, saying that her intention is to love him, that she wants to give him the moment between life and death as a present and never aiming any of the Macross' guns at him, only spraying them out, but the one time he is vulnerable, when she has him hypnotized, all the Macross' guns stop. It's obvious she was never aiming to hurt him. Given the above she was almost certainly only ever aimed to scare him by putting out a lot of bullets and only ever aiming to hit close to him, but not actually hit him.
Managing to fly a ship a normal pilot (or test pilot) couldn't is a good show of skill - but I wouldn't be putting it near Max, Basara or even someone like Alto.
>>14386078
> I would say Isamu is the most experienced combat pilot in macross universe
Experience isn't exactly a massive accomplishment on it's own. Nor is being able to finagle a set of upgrades an example of piloting accomplishments. That's more political than anything.
>>14387535
Actually Zentradi already knew about Fold Faults but just classified it as anomalies.It wasn't until Humans got the data and discovered the Vajra in 2040 did stuff start to make sense.
>>14397255
>Basara flew a stock VF-1
What? Aren't you thinking of Mylene/Gamlin that flew in Millia's VF-1?
>>14398420
No, I'm thinking of episode one of Dynamite, when Basara flies a VF-1 he finds in that macronised Zola guy's shed in to the middle of the poacher's fight in space. He pilots using an acoustic there too, though he's shot down in that episode. It's why he's injured in episode two.
>>14387465
PURE ENERGY?
Hoping to see Hayate and Mirage dance together to fight Keith in episode 13's big battle.
>>14397255
Okay? That really isn't all that impressive to me and I don't get why people bring it up as some sort of amazing feat. It means jack shit in a combat situation, and Basara would get utterly destroyed if he went up against any of the top tier combat pilots of the series.
Episode 13: OH FUCK
>>14398899
You don't think flying two separate VFs through combat situations, including at least one fight on his own part while controlling them via indirect touch using another piece of equipment demonstrates a high level of control over VFs? Okay then.
Also, he did go up against Chlore in Fleet of the Strongest, who is Millia's rival and directly stated to be as skilled as her and managed to evade her and then convince her to stop attacking via song. So according to the show itself, you're wrong. Millia is as good as Max and a 'real combat pilot', and he beat her.
>>14399229
RIP Hayate.
>>14397255
>He even had a full fight in the VF-19 while just using the acoustic guitar to control the VF. While playing it. And singing.
He did nothing much though.
He flew in, parked in front of the whale, started singing, and the Zolan Patrol(and later Gamlin) was covering him while fighting off the poachers.
>>14399718
>managed to evade her and then convince her to stop attacking via song.
And all the time Chlore was screaming at him while firing her weapons wildly. Hell, every Meltrandi was firing their weapons without aiming because of the song.
He was just continuously backing off with minimal dodging since their shots weren't even going to hit him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYHGDEl-zIc
>>14399752
> He flew in, parked in front of the whale, started singing, and the Zolan Patrol(and later Gamlin) was covering him while fighting off the poachers.
Yea, that's not actually true. He flew in, had a long fight with Graham and only started singing at the whale itself after said fight, when it had managed to eat a reaction warhead without dying. In no way did he just park himself in front of it or get covered by others.
Also, Chlore is pretty clearly following and aiming at Basara there. No one else is aiming at him, but she very obviously is. And yes, he only evades her and doesn't attack. He simply evades someone of Millia's skill long enough to convince her to stop attacking. How simple.
>>14398899
>max himself explicitly states that he thinks basara might be a better pilot than him
>n-no way he could beat the other aces in the series!
If we're to use the Macross games as any sort of official source, Max always has the highest overall statistics, with Millia lower in all categories but still fairly high. After that, it becomes somewhat less clear who's next. Nobody outright excels in all categories like Max and Millia do.
>>14399813
>so awful at maneuvering at tight spaces that milia yelled at him and had to teach him how to use GERWALK
>y-yeah of course he's unbeatable!
>>14399786
>but she very obviously is.
All we see in that was that he just continuously backing off in a straight line.
Chlore's aim with the guns on the hand was swinging left and right.
One thing to note is that Basara being able to avoid Chlore's shots mean very little in the context of accessing whether Basara would win against other ace pilots when his song is useless against them.
He is never going to attack his enemy, apart from firing speaker pods which does not really damage or disable a VF significantly on their own.
All this points to us is that Basara is likely able to dodge the shots from an ace, but you have to remember that dodging does not win you battles. Basara can dodge their shots, and it wouldn't be impossible for them to dodge Basara's speaker pod shots as well.
It's very likely to just end up in a draw with them running out of ammunition.
Basara is ultimately not a combat pilot, he is a good pilot, but he doesn't fight if he has a choice.
He won against Chlore because his song was affecting her and thus getting her to stand down, but against people that the song has no effect on, he can't really do much.
>>14399841
> Chlore's aim with the guns on the hand was swinging left and right
It's almost like she's tracking or trying to hit something that's moving. Nah, couldn't be. Obviously Basara just went backwards in a straight line and she failed to hit him despite shooting other guns in a less erratic manner at the same time.
> against people that the song has no effect on, he can't really do much.
If only there was something to day what he'd do in that situation. Something like a 50 episode TV show perhaps? Something where the entire point is him doing the impossible, moving the mountain and convincing enemies who don't want to listen. If only almost everyone in the show didn't start off complaining he was annoying and shooting at him, only changing their mind after multiple engagements. If only.
>>14400006
But if your entire point is that he'll just dodge and dodge and sing, until finally the opponent just goes "right right, I'll just listen to your song" and the duel ends with no combat... what the fuck is the point of bringing him up in a strongest pilot/x vs x thread? Oh vs Basara neither beats neither. Ok fine. Let's move on and discuss situations that are relevant then.
>>14400016
Making your enemy stand down is a legitimate win condition, especially if that's the condition you're aiming for. Not every win is 'blow them up and kill the pilot'.
>>14400018
The problem is that this would never work against someone like Keith or Brera or whatever who wouldn't give a fuck about his songs and just take him out without hesitation.
>>14400026
Yea, just like Gamlingay didn't care. Or Gigil. But let's say it wouldn't work? You're already imagining a hypothetical scenario, why is imagining he would shoot to kill in an an already imaginary scenario such an impossibility? I never said you couldn't, only that he only dodged in show. Add the shooting yourself. We know he's at least pretty accurate to hit with relatively large and slow ammo like speaker pods.
>>14399718
>>14399752
Why are you anons forgetting this is the second fight they had? In the first fight Basara coudln't even hit her with his speaker pods and she trashed his sound booster. The only reason he won is because of the speaker pod gamma.
>>14400037
The only reason he won against Chlore is because of something she was no longer being exposed to? He might have won over the other Meltradi because of it, but she wasn't.
>>14400036
Because it goes against his very nature. It's a mental limitation, but it is a limitation nonetheless. He would never be able to bring himself to do it, and that is what would lead to his downfall against someone who was seriously out to kill him.
>>14400046
Except he's fought multiple people trying to kill him and eventually won them over after multiple engagements. And even if he hadn't, people regularly ignore that mental limitation for Superman. And Batman. And Captain America. And Spiderman. And Goku. And whoever else. Why is it suddenly impossible for Basara even if you'll only accept killing as a legitimate end?
>>14400061
As you said
>multiple engagement
When people do x vs y discussions, they usually assume 1 single engagement. 1 fight to their death, not multiple fights till one of them dies or surrenders.
Basara's very nature is going to pull him down in that situation.
The result for any fight with anyone where the song is useless is either a draw with them running out of propellant and ammunition, or they eventually shoot Basara down. Its very unlikely for Basara to shoot to kill.
>>14400101
Yes, and a draw where one side can no longer fight and the other doesn't want to is usually accepted as a win condition. Since one side hot what they wanted in no more fighting.
Doesn't Keith have special powers/senses people because of his runes? His bedridden dad could sense the Elysium folding while he was taking a nap. It doesn't look like you can win against him unless you're buffed by a fold-magic song.
>>14382690
Keith was an ace and genius at 9 years old. That's fairly fucking ridiculous if you think about it.
>>14400123
By this logic, retreating and hiding is also a win condition because it results in no more fighting.
>>14400145
If you're aim is to run away from the start, then yea, it kind of is. Basara's aim is to make people listen to his song, with a secondary aim of stopping fighting. If all he can do is stop the fighting, which is one of his aims, then it's his win. It's how and why he won in most episodes of the show for a start. Saying it's invalid is like saying that a draw isn't an acceptable result in any match and one side has to score more to end it. Which is putting aside that some teams play specifically hoping for a draw, because they don't think they can win, or a win result puts them in a bad seed match or whatever. Amy list of win conditions will usually include something besides killing/scoring more and the definition of a win comes down to "obtaining a desired result". Which that meets.
>>14398420
You're a newfag, aren't you?
>>14399827
Then there's Ray
>>14400131
Being someone that was born to a family of privilege and having the best resources available to him definitely play a factor into that. If he was just an average job getting an average job's resources, doubt he would be as good as he currently is.
>>14387470
And as far as we know, M30 is cannon.
Unless it is in universe entertainment piece. This is Kawamori after all.
>>14401653
>best girl is cannon
fuck yeah
I wonder what she's up to now
>>14401694
Is she a macross cannon?
>>14401653
>>14401694
Aspects of it are probably canon. Namely the development of the YF-30. And I'd imagine due to the nature of the time-fuckery that was going on, everyone just popped back home with no memory of what really transpired on Ouroboros.
>>14401797
That would imply that she actually macronized at one point, so no.
