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Leo vs Zaku
Leo
Zaku
Leo easily,
Leo is utilitarian and simple in design, looks like military hardware, without unnecessary frills and spikes of villainy.
Leo is what a Zaku wanted to be and probably would have been, had Gundam had less toyetic influences and wan't riding on coattails of several successful super robot show with robots of the week.
Why would anyone say Leo?
Zakus are THE suit. They represent Zeon, and by proxy, Zeonic ideals (inb4 muh ideals). Love or hate Zeon, Zakus look like their main unit, they are green, mean, have great weapons, nice functional design, intimidating, but weak. Full of spirit, but not much power to back it up. It represents Zeon perfectly, and by proxy, it makes a great antagonistic grunt for MSG. It's not just a bad guy to go boom. Its a symbol of what our heroes are fighting.
The Leos have no homeland, no symbol, no ideals behind them. They exist just so they can get blown up. Every faction uses them, and every scene they are in they exist to lose to something else.
>>14336057
Leo's got blown up by shots that didn't hit them.
>>14336050
Baring typos, this is a surprisingly accurate and underrated post. Tomino dumped what toyetic "robots of the week" he could when he made his movies.
Anyway, is this thread about design or battle ability?
Design: Leo
Combat Performance : Zaku
The Leo clearly is a much more advanced suit.
HGリ-オーは販売されていない
>>14336050
>Leo is utilitarian and simple in design, looks like military hardware
>spikes of villainy
The Zaku's appeal is a cultural one. Zakus and Zeon are inseparable. Zakus may look villainous, but they also look defiant. They are abrasive and strong, and have a certain intimating presence.
If Zeon was utilitarian, and a simple military antagonist they wouldn't be iconic. They had to be represented in an (somewhat) over the top way to get across the very extreme fascist views they held. The Zaku couldn't just be a military machine. It had to be representative of Zeon culture, which represents the Japanese nationalistic push against a super union like the west.
Again, what do you think of when you see a Leo? It was designed to be no frills, because it had to represent every faction no matter the ideology.
>>14336094
>*intimidating
Sorry its 2:00 A.M over here, I'm tired
>>14336094
Zakus aren't even really that over the top. I can understand having the piping on the outside since it's an early suit. The spikes can both intimidate the enemy and be used to ram into enemy craft.
>>14336103
Zeon is over the top, not really Zaku. I'm just saying there is a impotent style to them, that reflects Zeon.
>>14336103
It's less over-the-top evil design and more that they're pretty blatantly meant to evoke a gas mask wearing stormtrooper, which carries a whole bunch of connotations.
Zaku because they can turn their heads.
>>14336076
It is.
A Leo with a flight pack was able to move an entire aircraft carrier when it was piloted by a named character.
Then again that might just be the fact that named Wing characters all have a particularly powerful MS-enhancing ability. Like Wing somehow surviving Libra's blast when it was piloted by Une.
>>14336118
Leo's have much stronger reactors too. They can easily equip both a beamsaber and a beam rifle, something even the Hi-Zack can't do.
>>14336114
So can Leos you dingus. But they can also pivot at the waist like a turret - or an actual goddamn robot.
Bonus: they don't need to wear their entrails outside. And they can actually use beam weapons.
>>14336136
lol thats gay
eat my ass
>>14336021
Leo is easily a better looking unit. People only like the Zaku because its from 0079 and its Zeon's main grunt. For that. it wouldn't matter what it looked like. They like it for what it represents not what it actually is.
I got a Zaku just for that as well, but the random pipes coming out that are never really explained, the gay looking design of the jet pack, the spikes. Its very much a design of the 70s.
The Leo looks far better, it looks like what a humanoid army suit would, and not a Saturday morning cartoon villain. nb4 all mechs are just toys for kids.
>>14336120
Weapons in AC run on their own enternal power source, and are charged either off site, or when attached to the backs of the unit (Shenlong, Sandrock, Deathscythe) the only exception is Eypon, and I guess the beam rifles of the Virgos.
It's not like in the UC where weapons are powered through the hands of units.
So a beam saber could be powered on the base and then handed to a Leo. Also a Leo could easily fire the buster rifle.
>>14336516
Shit taste.
I like Zakus more
The Leo is literally "What if Zaku was GM" the design.
Leos can use beam rifles and beam weapons. They can also equip a flight pack.
Combat/technology wise? The leo is better.
It has better reactor, beam weapons are commonly equipped to them (especially on space types), they are modular and can swap gear easily for different combat roles, they don't have a bunch of pipes and hoses hanging off them as easy targets, and even have an unassisteded flying type rather than relying on something like a base jabber.
There is no contest in that regard.
>>14336021
Leo technically has a lot more capabilities than the Zaku save for space combat natively.
The Leo can be fairly easily equipped with beam technology, from a beam gun to beam shoulder cannons. The Zaku's powerplant just can't compete; it can't support beam weaponry. As well, the mag-fed dober gun is far more practical than the Zaku bazooka.
From a projectile weaponry standpoint, both the Zaku machine gun and the Leo's are pretty much a wash.
As well, the Leo design looks more utilitarian and easier to both build and repair.
I'm very partial to the Zaku, but the Leo is just far more capable, even if it's made of explodium. The Zaku would definitely win in space, but that's where its only advantage lies (and the Leo wouldn't be too far behind with its space backpack loadout; just a larger target profile).
>>14336776
>(and the Leo wouldn't be too far behind with its space backpack loadout; just a larger target profile).
The Leo is smaller than the Zaku by over a meter. We've seen that with a capable pilot a space Leo can keep up with a Gundam. The Zaku has no chance.
>>14336021
Leo suffers from how its show of origin portrays it. Even if its numbers are actually better, and its design more utilitarian, I imagined a fight between a Zaku and a Leo involving the former tapping the latter, then the latter exploding. MSG certainly treated and portrayed its grunts better than Wing did.
I can understand what the Leo anon is saying about its design, its look is much more plain, and thus more likely to be used as an actual weapon, in comparison to the Zaku, which literally looks like a big mean monster. But, if you were to ask me which suit comes to mind when you say grunt...it would probably be the Gespenst Mk.II, but the Zaku would be close behind. It's as recognizable as its heroic foil, and as a character design, I find it much more charming.
>>14336776
>Leo technically has a lot more capabilities than the Zaku save for space combat natively.
Except a land Zaku cant do shit in space, they basically just look like they are drowning.
Both Leos and Zakus have land and space versions, the difference being the number or mini thrusters. Although sometimes land Leos just attach a backpack.
>>14337019
Land Leos can't damage a Gundam because Gundamium can only be destroyed by extreme heat. Land Leos are equipped with machine guns, space Leos and all other OZ space suits have beam cannons. Basically you can shoot a Gundam all day with a machine gun and it wont do anything.
This is explored more in GoL when the Tallgeese is armed with a heat lance.
>>14336120
The Hi-zack actually does have the power for it, the problem is the power delivery system.
>>14337063
Well later Zakus get glorified because they sell well. But in 0079 if Zakus fall over they explode because they have a nuclear reactor on their back.
>>14337069
That's sort of like comparing a WWI biplane to a fighter jet though; they're different generations of mobile suits.
The Zaku II is the granddaddy of even the Gundam RX-78-2, the Zaku I being even older (but not as mature a design). Every single UC mobile suit derives from the original Zaku IIs that invaded earth, but even though they were pushed far beyond their operating range by late OYW, they're still a first generation mobile suit (me defining that as the "first generation of combat-ready, mature designs").
![[EG]Gundam_Wing_Remastered_01_[EE0BB2B9].mkv_snapshot_16.37_[2016.06.09_10.32.32].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/8I87BQy.jpg "[EG]Gundam_Wing_Remastered_01_[EE0BB2B9].mkv_snapshot_16.37_[2016.06.09_10.32.32].jpg")
>>14337067
The Leo was using beam rifles on Earth as early as episode 1.
>>14336050
> Leo is what a Zaku wanted to be and probably would have been, had Gundam had less toyetic influences
If Tomino had had his way he'd have made the units roughly 2 meters and mono-colored in grey or something from what I gather, since I've read he wanted power armor and had to settle for giant robots.
>>14336057
I wouldn't call Zaku weaponry great for a start, but I dislike sci-fi units with really obvious retro weapons. Also, I wouldn't say the Zaku has any symbols. Zeon does, but the Zaku doesn't. And if you're going to count it's camera eye, then the Leo's head is really just as distinct and representative.
I'd also list it's lack of a homeland or obvious side is a plus though, and not a minus - since it means you can imagine anyone using it, yourself included if you wish, for any purpose. The Zaku has a specific purpose.l, which you can see as a positive, but does mean it's hard to separate it from that purpose.
I'm not a huge fan of the Leo, but I'm not a huge fan of the Zaku either and I'd probably prefer the Leo push comes to shove because it's a better suit and looks simpler and less garish.
>>14336118
She also flew from Earth to Libra in seconds, at what must be a good fraction of the speed of light.
>>14337067
Didn't a grunt of some kind try to use the buster rifle at some point? The Aries maybe?
>>14337122
Maybe, but look at the muzzle, compared to the standard Leo beam rifle. It also doesn't seem to have any energy pack like most other beam rifles in Wing.
>>14337155
I don't remember, I'm pretty sure Altron does at one point.
Anyways, it doesn't matter weapons in AC have internal energy sources.
A Leo running out of juice could fire the buster rifle.
>>14336074
>Combat Performance : Zaku
Bro, Leos can come equipped with beam weapons to start with, that alone puts them well above the Zaku.
![[EG]Gundam_Wing_Remastered_01_[EE0BB2B9].mkv_snapshot_17.43_[2016.06.09_10.53.14].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/clH5y4T.jpg "[EG]Gundam_Wing_Remastered_01_[EE0BB2B9].mkv_snapshot_17.43_[2016.06.09_10.53.14].jpg")
>>14337157
They have the packs. They just aren't always animated on.
We've already looked at specs and found Leos were roughly equivalent to the Nemo.
So unless that Zaku is a Zaku III, it's not going to measure up to tech level several years beyond it.
>>14337165
Sandra's Zakus had beam rifles
>>14337155
>Didn't a grunt of some kind try to use the buster rifle at some point? The Aries maybe?
I don't remember if it happened in the TV series, in a GoL, Heero does use the buster rifle with a Leo though.
There was a scene in the TV series where 2 or 3 Leos use the Taurus beam cannon though.
>>14336103
If he isn't familiar with zaku shoulder-tackle tactics then there's a good chance that he's really not that familiar with 0079... or, more evident with the rest of the thread, knows/likes wing way more.
itt: most people here are from the toonami generation, more news at 6
>>14337744
> itt: fans can't take people not liking their favorite and blame the nostalgia card
Just because people like one thing over another thing doesn't mean it's because of nostalgia anon.
>>14337744
>most people here are from the toonami generation
awful
>>14337738
...Or maybe he just prefers Leo's design for very valid reasons he described.
Even your picture doesn't paint MSG suits in good light - it looks downright goofy in a cartoonish way.
Zaku's design is very much a result of the Era it was made in, and the Anime trends running high at the time - just like the original, pic related Gundam which shared the same awkwardness and design ideology.
Whereas Gundam truly came unto it's own and matured as a design, via excuse of countless upgrades, the Zaku being an Icon - wasn't so lucky and got stuck with an archaic, cartoony monster, 70's era, super robot design.
Or maybe he's just a Wingfag, so fuck it.
>>14337155
The Buster Rifle specifically uses external power supplies in the form of the three capacitors right above the grip/trigger (the cone shaped doodads in the picture). In fact the MG kits allows you to break the buster rifle like a shotgun to load in new caps.
![latest[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/is5ANeb.jpg "latest[2].jpg")
>>14338057
The Virgo II is such a fucking sexy machine.
The Tallgeese style boosters, the planet defensors and bulky shoulders. It's a great evolution of the Leo, Tallgeese, Mercurius, and Vayeate designs. The only problem is that its little beam rifle looks inadequate compared to the rest of it. It's shame we never see a piloted version.
>>14338123
There is a piloted Virgo 3 in Frozen Teardrop. Heero rapes it in a Cancer but it's still pretty cool.
>>14338148
> Frozen Teardrop
...ewww
>>14337155
This Gundam was supposed to be power armor meme is still going on?
I thought that shit was debunked years ago.
>>14337808
Eh, even with it cartoonish origin, with a little bit tweak Zakus design are much better than Leos as combat soldier look.
Leos are like, glorified cartoonish bot that looks like combat mock stickmen, used to make MC looks good by comparison, and clearly made for beatstick.
>>14338357
> little bit tweak Zakus design
You can do the same with a Leo. Remember that Tallgeese is just a Leo with a helmet and boosters
>>14338382
Except the Shortduck didn't explode the second a Gundam looked in its general direction.
>>14338424
Zaku got slaughtered by vulcan, blunt force and being thrown. They got done in by goofy stuff all the time. People really have shitty memory of MSG is they think Zaku weren't done as bad as Leo. The only difference is that there were 6 main characters fighting Leo across Wing while MSG was mostly Amuro fighting them. Of course the Leo would look worse.
>>14338424
It has no bearing on the design, which seems to be what is argued here.
Blame the writer for writing it in such a nonsensical way. God, Wing is such a retarded mess - like when Quatre floated around in space in his Gundam, for what was essentially an entire arc, that seemed to take place over a period of several weeks...
Wing's shitty writing soured the perception of Leo.
>>14338484
>like when Quatre floated around in space in his Gundam
That never happened.
>>14338382
Eh not much better
Now it look like glorified stickmen ballerina with autocannon, that still explode when Gundooms look at them silly.
Atleast Zakus both look awesome and able to bitchslap Gendubs in the face while piloted by a litteral cripple.
>>14338148
>Virgo 3
It's the not same, anon. It's just not the same.
Man, I remember watching Gundam Wing on Toonami back in the day. I didn't care much for OZ suits, least of all the Leo. I use thought the blank square faceplate was really bland. The Serpent was pretty cool, but the Leo was nothing special.
Then they showed the original episodes of MGS, and the first thing you see if the Zaku come into frame with its gas mask helmet and then that singular eye lights up, that machine-gun with the drum-magazine and side-extending grip. I was in love. These things were way better than the Leo. As soon as the episode was over I went out and bought my first Zaku model kit. I've warmed up to the Leos design a bit since then, but for me nothing beats the classiness of the Zaku.
>>14338484
>Wing's shitty writing soured the perception of Leo.
and the more or less lazy animation.
I heard from somewhere that the animators just had Leos blow up because it was easier to animate than having them fall down.
Not to mention that the Gundams were literally designed to shit all over Leos and anything that stood in their was as per their role as terror weapons. Then there was the copious amounts of plot armor. Take Treize taking on three (!) mobile doll Leos in another Leo and slapping the shit out of them with minimal damage.
but I still think that the Leo would put up a good fight against a Zaku.
And I also think all the Wing grunts need updated model kits.
>>14338495
Much better. It's just lineart. You literally took a super stylized picture to try and make the Zaku look cool. Zakus didn't do shit to the Gundam in MSG. You needed side story barely animated later to see Zakus do anything. Leos beat on Gundams in Wing to the point that Quatre was forced to blowup Sandrock so they could escape into space.
>>14338495
Zaku were outdated within like 4 months of the OYW. Leos were in service for like 20 years.
Its also that 0079 fan buys with buy Zaku anything, that Zakus keep getting 1000 different variants, as Gundam anime is first and foremost to sell models.
0079 followed a monster of the week formula, meaning that when Zakus first appeared they looked like they could actually take on the rx-78-2 however within a few weeks, Amuro could take on multiple Zakus no problem, and have them explode if their nuclear reactors got any blunt force hit.
>>14338524
Leos are weak against Gundams, but against another Leo it'd be fine. They were used for 20 years.
And mobile dolls don't defend themselves they have to be programmed to attack, Treize fired on them during a simulation, and then keep firing when the operator order the dolls to cease firing.
To sum up the Leo argument
>Muh realism
>Z-Zakus were just monsters of the week!
>20 years!
>Everyone who disagrees with me is a fanboy
>Beam rifles!
Leo fans confirmed faggots
>>14338631
Zaku only arguments:
>Zakus are Zeon
>Leos espode
fuck off faggot. I like both, but hardcore 0079 fanboys are bad.
>>14338535
>Zakus need sidestory to actually do anything
AHAHAHAHA
Char's zaku are literally wipe out entire fleet. And only subside it because zeon need a testbed pilot and promo figure for their latest design.
Oh and don't forget the Black Tri Star Bros, they've absolutely rekt that guncannon line, with that "shitty" Zakus.
They bring victory to the war m8, even Feds need Gundoms with psychic autist to save them.
>>14338557
Zakus are mostly outlined because Zeonic and later Anarheim are actualy do shit about them. They update their design, and just give them another name but it still the same guy. And even then there still Zaku 3 in zeta.
Leo still used for 20 years because "why we must update this mook that will explode anyway, better build more Gundams"
>>14338655
>0079 fanboys are bad.
Thank you for proving my point
>>14338657
Just how like the M1A1 was only in service for 3 months tops.
Leo was used for 20 years because EFA basically took over Earth and space and no one could challenge them.
There's a Zaku 3 in Zeta and Titans basically use (not)Zakus because Zakus will sell.
>>14338657
>Char's zaku are literally wipe out entire fleet
>Oh and don't forget the Black Tri Star Bros
Named characters who beat fodder
>They bring victory to the war m8,
The Zaku only did so well because the Federation didn't even have MS. Once they got MS they dominated Zeon.
>>14338161
Very simple idea anon: if you have proof, post it. Otherwise, all you're giving is speculation and trying to cloak it in the guise of ridicule. At least I was honest that mine was speculation and hearsay.
>>14338696
You ask for Zakus right?
Then i give you Zakus, named or not.
>Once Feds had Gundam and newtype autist they dominate Zeon
ftfy
>>14338731
Iunno, that first batch of GMs tore apart those Zakus and such at Jaburo pretty easily with their Beam Spray Guns and all that.
>>14338740
Then zakus and bros start tearing 10 of them every one of their own fall.
But maybe it because Feds are shit at war and have whole bunch of shit pilot.
>>14338731
You realize you can come up with examples of named characters piloting Leo's to effect as well right? Heero, Trieze, Zechs and multiple other characters used them to destroy other suits and even occasionally stymie Gundams. Heero took on a Gundam in a Leo in Endless Waltz.
Also, Zeon replaced the Zaku fairly quickly once the Federation started fighting back and would have preferred to give all troops something better than a Zaku but couldn't due to supply and production issues. As is, Zeon was losing on Earth to conventional weapons despite having the technological advantage with mobile units and only winning in space by dint of the One Week War leaving them with territory.
>>14338796
Reminder that Zaku IIs fought off the Gundam team in ZZ.
>>14338794
I'm pretty sure they were just shoving pilots in as GMs rolled off the production line at that point. Shitty pilots is pretty believable when I think they didn't even have any simulations or anything.
>>14336110
>That file name
The last time we had a thread like this everyone just wanked over the Leo like mad fiends, and by everyone I mean a few samefags who were loud as fuck and full of opinions.
Surely we can't have the same thread twi-
>Leo just looks so much better and realistic and not toyish at all and my opinion is objective
>Leo has better weapons and reactors and output and speed and power and practical use and everything because I can compare fictional creations from different works with different settings and because I said so
>all of your counter arguements are either wrong, exceptions, or memes
>if you disagree you are a faggot zeonwank cartoon nazi fanboy
>>14338944
You realise it's just a few Zaku fans making arguments about the Zaku being objectively better and having more personality and more success and so on too. It's fags on both sides giving the whole bad reputations.
>>14338944
>>Leo has better weapons and reactors and output and speed and power and practical use and everything because I can compare fictional creations from different works with different settings and because I said so
I'm pretty sure that the Leo, Zaku II, and Nemo all have solid numbers for their generators and thrusters and such. I'd check myself but I'm too lazy to find the sources for the numbers.
>>14338956
Then you realize that this thread is made especially for that.
The point is that OP is the actual faggot.
>>14338990
I'd say the thread was doing fine and was breeding some interesting discussion on comparative design and what each offered for a while before a few people took exception to the idea of their favourite being less than in some respect and started trying to campaign to make their units the winner rather than invest in any actual discussion. And that those people are the ones to village really, not the idea of vs discussion.
>>14339009
> village
Blame even, god knows how that came out village.
>>14339009
And i must say that Zakufaqs turned this thread into a clusterfuck...
It was doing well until those two post by the same Zakufag.
>>14338357
>>14338495
Leo or Zaku? I choose neither... and both!
>>14339029
>>14337122
>Confound that Dover Base!
>>14336050
>Leo is what a Zaku wanted to be and probably would have been, had Gundam had less toyetic influences and wan't riding on coattails of several successful super robot show with robots of the week.
I agree, BUT this is still a Gundam series, so let's not go that far. Wing Gundam is pretty toyetic
>>14339024
Doing well in injecting your Leotism you mean.
Just accept it, its a vs thread, there's must be opposition from the other side. You cannot expect everyone to accept your view anon. Leo's side also share same ammount of shitting by wall of text by certain (You)'s.
Goddamn, Wingkids is a pain....
>>14339173
Well said, my Zeon friend. These wingkids don't understand the national pride we have in our country.
They only have gay ass Sanc Kingdom
>>14339202
>Sanc Kingdom
>belief in pacifism
>all its story revolve in "peace" and "friendship"
>Ruled by King Peacecraft
By god.....
That was..... disney level writing right there
>>14339234
And it failed. Even for the short time it existed it only did because a bunch of former OZ and ESA soldiers formed an army to fight off the Romefeller foundation without Relina knowing.
I know, Relina Peacecraft should have had a name like Roosevelt Boliva or another god tier Tomino name.
>>14339253
Quatro Vagina?
>>14339253
It failing was kind of the point. Wing was against throwing away weapons and closing your eyes and ears to the world. You had to fight for peace.
>>14339234
And we have Gundam series where characters compare each other to Hitler
The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. Gundam has never been one to shy away from being ON THE NOSE about things.
>>14339173
No, doing well in actually discussing, you know arguments and shizz.
After that bait, it devolved into NO U and MEMES
>>14339300
Confirmed, the leo argument "[...]NO U" and "MEMES
Woah, these guys aren't even trying. Still waiting for you to eat my ass
>>14339260
I know, which is why its really as Disney a concept at it might appear.
Although Waltz had a pretty Disney ending.
>>14337738
I have zero memory of the Zaku I being in 0079.
>>14339576
As far as I remember it's in one episode near the start and maaaaybe one in Aboa Qu.
>>14339068
I appreciate this dank-ass meme
>>14337808
wasnt trying to make the suits "look good", just showing precedence far back in ep 3 where an old war-dog illustrates how to fight with a MS that has no weapons.
shit, if it was a ms-06 instead of 05, he might have actually done some damage with the added paldron spikes.
anyway, the point was that they showed, from the beginning, that the spikes hold utility.
Wouldn't the Leo win in a fight since it has beam weapons as part of its standard armament?
>>14336516
>the random pipes coming out that are never really explained
I believe the explanation is the Zaku II being the early suit that it was, was not made for fighting other mobile suits. It was made for fighting tanks, APCs, bases, aircraft, and other things that couldn't reach out and grab them. Though it does make you wonder why the designers, I mean in universe, never thought a tank shell or missile couldn't just hit them.
What if Zaku and Leo had a baby together?
I always felt like the Leo was missing a decorative head/helmet to go over the sensor.
>>14339749
You mean like this?
>>14339755
>Same sensor
Jesus christ
>>14339701
vent system. gets ripped off a zaku's head in episode 1.
doesn't move coolant or any other substance, no smoke or exhaust. doesn't seem to directly connect to the cockpit.
just a bunch of integrated tubing culminating up to a literal ventilation grate+shaft.
>>14338794
>>14338794
>Then zakus and bros start tearing 10 of them every one of their own fall
No they didn't. I can remember a nameleas Zaku trumping a GM on-screen MAYBE twice. The rest of the time, GMs were pretty much wrecking Zeon left and right, especially Zakus
>>14339623
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TpnpNZcAX0
Listen to this at x1.5 speed
That Leo sure knows how to dance
>>14339749
>>14339755
Allow me to blow both your minds.
