I believe both sides were using nuclear weapons, but Zeon intentionally targeted colonies and sides because the colonies were a source of manpower for the EF and in some cases had garrisons or were forward bases for the EFF. In any case, the Antarctic treaty was signed between Zeon and EF to prohibit the use of nuclear weapons and colony drops, because the EF has a massive nuclear weapon stockpile and Zeon with space fleet supremacy could toss colonies down at earth.

It's worth noting that the original planning notes for the show indicated that although Zeon was largely responsible for starting the war and targeting population centres resulting in half of humanity perishing, both the EF and Zeon apparently used such weapons.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/gundamsetting.html
>After the Battle of Loum, Zeon and the Federation, horrified by their own power, concluded a treaty prohibiting the use of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. This was the Antarctic Treaty.

>Three Day Battle: Roughly 40 colonies of Sides 1, 2, and 4 are destroyed in a three-day period, resulting in the deaths of 3 billion people. Zeon employs a strategy of crashing roughly 40 colonies onto the Earth, and nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons are widely used.

>Battle of Loum: This conflict between Zeon and the Federation takes place at Side 5, or Loum, hence the name. Most of the colonies of Sides 2 and 5 are crashed onto the Earth, and 3.5 billion people are killed. Nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons are widely used.

The wording suggests both sides used such weapons. That said, the setting notes for the original show are now obsolete and have been retconned by various new sources of information. It's just interesting to note that Tomino and other staff on the show had more or less intended the backstory to be like this in the beginning, though.

In before Black Knight's revisionist theories.

>>14302713
Ah, thank you for the well spoken Answer. So your saying in the previous material that both sides had been said to employee such, but it was reconnected to be more zeon centralized?

I had always thought after Zeon finished gassing a colony, the Federation would lob a nuclear warhead into the colonies engine or docking hatch to render the colony unuseable for a colony drop, save for the one Kycillias fleet managed to drop on Sydney.

The original series, it always seemed like both sides were equally responsible for the death toll.

>>14302742
>I had always thought after Zeon finished gassing a colony, the Federation would lob a nuclear warhead into the colonies engine or docking hatch to render the colony unuseable for a colony drop, save for the one Kycillias fleet managed to drop on Sydney.
Perhaps. We do know that the Federation attacked only a fraction of the number as Zeon did. Depending on the translation, either Zeon killed 1/2 the Federation's population or both sides took out half of humanity. If you're using the second (older, and I think poorer) translation, Zeon would have had to kill something like 7 billion while the Federation knocked off .5 billion (we don't know how many Side 3 had). Zeon was always the one who abused WMDs like crazy, especially against civilian populations, but the Federation wasn't shy about using them against military targets.

>>14302742
>Ah, thank you for the well spoken Answer. So your saying in the previous material that both sides had been said to employee such, but it was reconnected to be more zeon centralized?
Pretty much. Zeon is written to be the more evil of the two evil sides of the war, and Tomino's take on the original story has generally consistently been "Zabis are evil, they deserve to die so the war can stop". I don't think any recently animated stories like Gundam Unicorn or Gundam the Origin show both sides slaughtering each other with nuclear weapons and chemical/biological weapons now. They will show a shot of the colony falling on earth and then leave it at that. Gundam 0083 and 08th MS Team showed us images of a single colony being gassed and how traumatic it was for the people involved, but didn't tell us anything about the scale or how many colonies were attacked that way.

>I had always thought after Zeon finished gassing a colony, the Federation would lob a nuclear warhead into the colonies engine or docking hatch to render the colony unuseable for a colony drop, save for the one Kycillias fleet managed to drop on Sydney.
Colonies are gigantic, as far as I know the ones that were gassed were left alone. Moving even one colony by itself was a huge effort and requires a ton of fuel and specialized giant engines. Destroying one is also hard because of how well reinforced they are and nuclear weapons sorta not working well in space. The colony that fell on Sydney was part of a running battle between the entire Zeon and EF fleets and even after a few solid days of fighting the EF were unable to stop it.

If you wanna read some more, this is a nice place to see translations of some Gundam info-books. Keep in mind that not all of it is accurate or correct anymore because some of these are 20~30 years old and have sometimes made up stuff or have been retconned by newer books.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive.html

>>14302817
Both sides slaughtering each other? That's pretty much what Gundam Seed is.

>>14302830
Yep. The Earth faction is nuke happy as fuck, and have built giant microwaves under important bases (that completely fucking annihilate everything) just to use them as surprise traps for enemy invasions. More than once.

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>>14302754
Not really.

In episode 40 or so Gihren outright states that Zeon's plan is to reduce the population of humanity to solve overpopulation. It's also in movie 3.

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>>14302876
Literally master race tier shit, except he's more generous with the definition I guess since he only killed half of humanity so far

I'm pretty sure when you say "half of humanity died", then it's on both sides

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>>14302878
WH40k-tier eradication

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>>14302881

>>14302879
Space colonies had no real guy in the fight, they just let the federation maintain garrisons in the sides. Zeon used the excuse of attacking the Federation to eradicate entire colonies. Not to mention the shit they did to Earth.

>>14302879
Sure "half of humanity" is including the Zeon side, but here's the question:

-How big is the population of EF and Zeon respectively?
-How many did Zeon killed?
-How many did EF killed?

▲
▲▲

>>14302663
The blame should never fall on the oppressed side's shoulders, but on the oppressing force.
So it's all Federation's fault.

>>14302909
Side 3 had about 1.5 billion and it was the least touched by the war

>>14302909
Except it's outright stated that Side 3 was never attacked and Gihren definitely would have mentioned in his speeches if half of Side 3's population was killed. And it's perfectly possible for half of humanity to be killed and for Zeon to escape largely unscathed, especially if the half of humanity killed was concentrated on the Federation side, as seems to be the case.

>>14302876
But that doesn't actually show that Zeon were responsible for all the deaths before that.

MSG itself leaves it pretty ambiguous. At the very least it is never outright stated that Zeon went around massacring all the sides, those details got added in from databooks and the like after the show had already aired.

>>14302971

>>14302713

Didn't see this. Interesting. I'm surprised these details weren't made explicit in the show.

>>14302971
>people were horrified by the atrocities committed in the name of independence

Not once are they horrified by any atrocities committed in the name of defending the federation, at least until Zeta. It's very heavily implied throughout the show that it's just Zeon going on a killing spree

>>14302663
What is this a colony drop for ants?

>>14302713
40 colonies is 3 billion people?

That's 75 million souls per colony. I feel like that doesn't really line up to the population density we see anywhere, nevermind that the piddling agro-pods floating around the exterior could never support so many.

... Maybe I'm being too autistic here, I just always appreciated the colonies as being a great "hard" scifi element, insofar as I only had to suspend disbelief for the mobile suits themselves.

>>14302998
It's possible that all of the colonies suffered from Gross over-population so having those kind of numbers per colony are very much possible. I doubt living conditions would be all that swell inside, but it would be possible.

>>14302998
Colonys arn't uniform. Some are densely populated urban/industrial setups, Some are agricutural with lower pops and others have a mix etc.

>>14302944
The orbital maneuvering needed to actually lob a nuke at Side 3 make this plausible. The Zeon would have ample time to intercept ships heading toward them once Luna was secure.

Meanwhile, the Feddies have the distinct problem of needing to defend pretty much everywhere all the time, hence a numerically superior force consistently getting their shit pushed in until Zeon exhausted itself.

Zeon Gundam: The Gundam That True Fans Want
In the universal century Zeon Char Zeon, the coolest Zeon in all of Zeon, was being oppressed by the big bad evil meanie federation. GMs and Jegans which are lame and stupid were oppressing the zeons so he got in the Zeon Gundam, which was like the RX-78 but spiky and bright red. Zeon Char Zeon then unsheathed his zeon made beam sword which was made out of newtype minovsky particles that were folded over a million times and cut through the jegans. "Nothing personal kid" he said as he teleported behind a jegan with his newtype powers and cut him into a million pieces. And then Captain Bright came but because he's cool he's a zeon now and he took Zeon Char Zeon onto his new ship called The Glory of Zeon where he gave Zeon Char Zeon the Zeon Gundam Cross Buster Double XVI Booster Gold with TWO beams swords folded over a billion times each. With his new weapon he went down to earth and started killing all the GMs Jegans and Federations with his Zeon Gundam Cross Buster Double XVI Booster Gold and his army of Zakus which cut through all the other GMs and Jegans like they were made out of tinfoil. Zeon Char Zeon then killed the entire Federation and destroyed the Earth so the environment could be free from earthnoids. Zeon Char Zeon was relaxing after his victory when suddenly a bunch of stupid lame pirate guys with midget mobile suits showed up. "Who the fuck are you losers?" Zeon Char Zeon said. "We're the Crossbone Vanguard! Will you be our friends?" But Zeon Char Zeon laughed at them cause they ere losers and said "You wish you were as cool as Zeon!" and killed them. Then a bunch of retarded guys with even smaller mobile suits that had bug eyes and beam helicopters were gonna ask if they could be friends too but the Zanscare was even lamer than the crossbone losers so Zeon Char Zeon killed them before they could even ask. Then Zeon ruled over everything forever. The End.

>>14302998
UC never really made sense of the colonies and population numbers. For one, we don't really know how many colonies there are, before or after the OYW, nor exactly what an average population size for a colony might be. Or exactly how many people live on earth and in space.

That said, you're misreading that quote. Sides 1, 2, and 4 were destroyed and those deaths those add up to about 3 billion. In the staff's minds, Zeon just took 40 previously inhabited colonies (now full of dead people) and dropped them on Earth.

>>14303003
>>14303006
Spreading 3 billion unevenly is actually kind of worse. the logistics of feeding a colony with ~150 million people in it, even if you've got a couple of equivalently-sized agricultural colonies with small populations nearby, boggle the mind. You'd need transport ships running round-the-clock.

Side 7 and Texas are lightly populated, yes, but that would make places like Riah or Moore complete Malthusian nightmares, and they aren't ever depicted as such.

I mean, those numbers have been retconned to hell and back anyway, but always took the densest colonies to be something like the population of, say, Manhattan, with the rest of that space occupied by the necessities to support such a group.

>>14302663
Since Side 3 was untouched, and no other Sides supported Zeon, the only losses Zeon suffered during the One Week Battle were military losses. By extension, the loss of half the human race is attributed almost entirely to Zeon, since all civilian casualties were caused by Zeon and this number vastly dwarfs the number of military casualties on either side.

>>14303030
>Roughly 40 colonies of Sides 1, 2, and 4 are destroyed in a three-day period, resulting in the deaths of 3 billion people.

This is a complete sentence. I don't see how it could be misread. That being said, your point is reasonable and all we've got are wild inconsistencies to try to wrap our heads around, so it's whatever.

>>14303030
Just take Side 7's colony as a standard measurement. A couple of hundred families at most.

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>>14303047
>mfw people unironically support Zeon's actions after doing shit like this during the OYW

the biggest threat to spacenoid safety is Zeonic movements but people still spout >muh ideals
before gassing civilians and mega-nuking global food resources.

>>14303047
I think the conception some of us have of it is that after things start to go off the rails the feds may have started slinging nukes in an effort to stop the Zeon, thereby causing collateral damage of their own.

It's not hard to imagine the officer corps of the EFF playing their last trump card in a panic once they started losing Magellans and colonies.

>>14302998
For the most part, lore says colonies are no more than 10 million per open colony.

>>14303036
All colonies have agriculture pods hanging around near the bottom. In theory, all are self-sufficient, so I guess any agriculture-based colonies are for surplus only, or maybe luxury-type foods.

>>14303070
IIRC EFSF didnt use any nukes until Loum, could be wrong.

>>14303068
Well it's basically the same reason people support Communism in all its different schools of thought to this very day. They believe that the ideal is good and worth sacrificing anyone for, and that the ultimate goal outweighs personal morality. Also, remember, Zeonism is a pseudo-theological movement centered around worship of either Newtypes and Zeon Deikun or Gihren Zabi and his ubersternmensch. Being a part of that faith means that you are one of the Chosen, and have a power and rightness and understand over the inferior heathens. Why do you think so many NeverTrumpers continue to cry out and support a third party?

>>14303172
>Why do you think so many NeverTrumpers continue to cry out and support a third party?

Because Trump is a garbage candidate and a literal retard just like his supporters, who only support Trump out of blind faith.

Since you never see Zeon crowing about the Feds nuking living colonies (since they totally would have as propaganda, even if it was am accident) I thought the assumption was they were mostly used to intercept dead colonies so they couldn't be lobbed at the Earth.

If >>14303130 is accurate it pans out, since they obviously didn't glass the Operation British colony.

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>>14302998
Given the size and the internal volume of a single colony I wonder where Zeon took so much poison gas?

>>14303684
Probably took it to the colony's environmental systems and distributed it from there.

>>14302998

Using data from wikipedia and basic math, I get the average density for colonies in UC is around 100 thousand people per km square.

I don't know how large actually is the colonies in UC, but 100 thousand is "twice as dense as Manila".

>>14302838
I still love how indignant ZAFT was when Heaven's Base used whatever that was to microwave all their space-dropped troops without blowing up the base.

Since ZAFT (especially by that point in Destiny) doesn't have a fucking leg to stand on as far as moral high ground, I'm assuming they were just appalled that OMNI somehow made one of their deathtraps OSHA-compliant.

>In before Black Knight's revisionist theories.

Please. He got so buttblasted in the last 'here's how Zeon is full of shit' thread he turned his trip off; he'll probably stay mad and off the boards til this gets cycled off and he thinks we've all forgotten how far his shit got pushed in.

>>14303710

I think he was asking where the gas came from, but they literally just buster a hole in the side of a Colony with a Zaku I and then used it to fire a gas grenade that was probably the size of a tanker or something off and that was enough. Shiro has a flashback to it happening in 08th MS Team. It only took maybe one or two Zaku to do it, so Zeon (well, Gihren really) loved it because it was so simple and efficient. I've no idea how they manufactured that much gas though.

>>14303878
> I've no idea how they manufactured that much gas though.
All the resources that probably should have gone into things like food production and infrastructure would be my guess.

Some chemical weapons are also disturbingly easy to manufacture; I'm assuming that (G-3?) gas was one of them.

>>14302713
>Roughly 40 colonies of Sides 1, 2, and 4 are destroyed in a three-day period

I never realized there were that many colonies.

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>>14302663
>>After the Battle of Loum, Zeon and the Federation, horrified by their own power, concluded a treaty prohibiting the use of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. This was the Antarctic Treaty.
>>Three Day Battle: Roughly 40 colonies of Sides 1, 2, and 4 are destroyed in a three-day period, resulting in the deaths of 3 billion people. Zeon employs a strategy of crashing roughly 40 colonies onto the Earth, and nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons are widely used.
>>Battle of Loum: This conflict between Zeon and the Federation takes place at Side 5, or Loum, hence the name. Most of the colonies of Sides 2 and 5 are crashed onto the Earth, and 3.5 billion people are killed. Nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons are widely used.

You know what's really funny? In the year 0079 there were about 13 billion people in the earthly realm, of which about 10 billion live in space. During the one-year war killed an estimated 5 billion, the vast majority of whom were colonists. However, in 0096, this blond-bastard-killed-Marida said that 10 billion lives in space.

So what the hell?! After 16 years, the colonists fully regained his strength ?! In one generation?! At constant armed conflicts and terrorism?!

Die Tomino ...

>>14302663
>>14302713
>>14302742
>>14303840
>>14302876
To those unfamiliar with the wall of text, I've opted for an omnibus style, it's got to get people to read all the points and help keep things from getting bogged down where it's 1 post 20 replies. First off, Zakus weren't packing ICBMs, they were basically pocket nukes like the one you see in GP-02 in Stardust Memory. Zeon did a preemptive strike on the Federation due to the outbreak of hostilities becoming inevitable and just how outnumbered Zeon was, a massive first strike was the only option to even have a remote chance of winning. Regardless, the Simmons recounting is extremely dubious.
>Three Day Battle: Roughly 40 colonies of Sides 1, 2, and 4 are destroyed in a three-day period, resulting in the deaths of 3 billion people. Zeon employs a strategy of crashing roughly 40 colonies onto the Earth, and nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons are widely used.
This implies Zeon gassed all the colonies with the intention of pulling a Space Revolutionary Army on the Federation. Which runs contrary to Operation British where a specific colony was used. Also while nuclear and chemical weapons were employed, we never see any biological weapons. A colony's destruction really depends on your definition to either being rendered uninhabitable or just turned into a pile of wreckage.
>Please. He got so buttblasted in the last 'here's how Zeon is full of shit' thread he turned his trip off;
Now this is revisionism, contrary to your beliefs I do more in life than factpost on /m/. You were arguing with someone else who decided to exercise some critical thinking and common sense against your feddie circle jerking. The statement is ambiguous, it doesn't imply that wiping out the Federation aligned Sides was part of the greater scheme for maintaining stability, just that because of the war, overpopulation is no longer a pressing factor in retrospect. To be fair, it can be interpreted either way.

>>14302997
>>14303009
>>14303057
To be fair, ants do live in colonies and their wars are more brutal than people know beyond the usually ripping enemies apart. They also employ biological (certain fungi) and chemical (chem trails to confuse enemy ants) warfare, enslaving the pupas, sealing the entrances to rival colonies to starve them, and the usual eat everything else. Because of minovsky jamming, it's almost impossible for the Federation to launch a volley of ICBMs at Side 3 because all guidance systems minus wire guided (Maybe laser) can't function. As for just programing the flight path ahead of time, Aiming a missile at a colony is like trying to hit a the pin of the needle from a mile away with a pistol and you only have a small window to be able to launch them in the first place so Zeon just needs to be on elevated alert during the time Jaburo or Luna II (if that's possible) have a line of sight with Side 3. The more plausible scenario is the Federation pulls as an ONMI from SEED where they take their entire stockpile from Luna II, gather up all their remaining ships and just bumrush Side 3 with the intention of just getting a few ships to break through the Zeon defensive lines to launch their payloads at the colonies. Or they are used a deterrent to keep Zeon from attacking Luna II since the Feddies would launch their nukes at the approaching Zeon fleets. Side 7's colony is a poor point of reference because while it was habitable, it was still under construction.

Is this another well thought-out Black_knight bait thread ?

>>14305767
I think your giving me to much credit, I honestly was just looking for an answer to my question.

Luckily the thread has been a resounding success in that regard.

>>14305767
Everything is a bait thread these days.

>>14305079
>ou were arguing with someone else who decided to exercise some critical thinking and common sense against your feddie circle jerking.

It's all acceptable if it's related to glorious Zeon, right?

Can you actually fuck off forever, please? Your very existence is a cancerous blight.

>>14303646
[TRIGGERED]

>>14302742
IIRC Zeon was attaching nuclear engines onto colonies themselves to move them for a drop, not the colonies own systems. The reason why in 0083 they had to use such a complicated method to propel the colony towards earth was that the Delaz fleet didn't have access to or the resources to make those large engines anymore.

Also worth noting, the vast majority of that "Half the human population" were on the EF side. The warfront never reached side 3's civilian population.

>>14303878
>>14303892

Gas (Or its components) was probably acquired through trade with the Jupiter fleet, which was maintained even with the embargo as no one wanted to piss off the main source of Helium 3 which was used for their ship reactors and the like.

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>>14302876
>>14302878
>>14302881
>>14302888
Why is it always the criminally retarded wastes of space that drag down society that try to implement "survival of the fittest" plans and similar garbage?

>>14309606

They aren't. A lot of people, including notable personages like Alexander Graham Bell, Teddy Roosevelt and H.G. Wells believed in social eugenics before WWII. Thousands of people were euthenized or sterilized "for the greater good" during it's heyday, especially the physically and mentally handicapped - though it was sometimes applied to people who were mentally and physically sound but were related to someone who was handicapped in some manner. Buck v Bell being a famous case regarding it, with Carrie Buck's sister, Doris, having been sterilized by court order without her permission or knowledge while in for appendicitis. Something she didn't find out about till several decades later while trying to have children with her husband. The Nazis tainted the concept so much that it died out and even people that supported it saw the horror intrinsic in the concept and dropped it because of the Nazis, like Winston Churchhill. It's one thing we can genuinely thank them for I guess.

>>14303729

The one we see in 0080 (Side 6, Riah) doesn't look that dense except for the commercial areas

>>14304970

>Tomino is responsible for inconsistencies in Unicorn when it was written by someone else (Fukui) 20+ years after MSG

Okay.jpg mind you if Marida says lived instead of lives it would've made more sense

>>14309645
Sorry, I misspoke. I meant in fiction.

In real life yeah there was some academic merit behind eugenics, but it was one of those things that is too easily tainted by personal bias and can never be safely studied for how simple it is to abuse.

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>>14303172

A short way to say it is, "It's the economy stupid." People will form political inclinations based on what they feel best serves them and their objectives--spiritually, economically, culturally, whatever--well before they consider the historical ramifications even if they're aware of them. After all, chances are THEY personally were not affected. In Taiwan, we've had 20 years of free elections and only just voted the Kuomintang out of parliament. The Kuomintang are literally the same political party who killed and or arrest tens of thousands of people on some tiny, unimportant island in the 1950s out of a hypersensitive paranoia of the Japanese, Leftist Chinese, and Leftists in general. It's the same reason people worldwide support international capitalist development despite the astronomic loss of life of imperialism, colonialism, and world wars (even people in post-colonial Africa, Asia and South America): the arena of ideas is fought in the present day, not in your father's memory.

I voted for the Pan-Blues too, despite personally knowing children of men the Garrison Command lined up against walls and shot, and personally knowing more than one inmate of the Green Island prison. Millions of other Taiwanese voted for them too (significantly less in this most recent election, heh).

That's a hard thing to pull off in 0083--but then you're still dealing with enlisted and officers who served the Principality military back in 70s. Fast forward to 0096, it's possible that the political landscape in multiple colonies has changed, and the immediate impact of the OYW are so far removed, that Zeonism, in a more radical, ideological form can be attractive for apparently pragmatic reasons, like hard-left communism in Belarus or reactionary capitalism in Taiwan. And admittedly, in arenas where it's a zero-sum competition, the Federation hasn't done itself that many favors given its own political center being far from colonies.

>>14309546
Wasn't the point of the two-tier plan in 0083 to exhaust the fuel reserves of most of the Federation fleet chasing the colony to Luna, then using the colony's propellant to fling it back toward the earth?

>>14309374
>>14309546
>>14303172
>>14309730
Nyet. They did it for a few reasons. Attaching a pulse engine is a logsitical nightmare and there would be no way the Delaz Fleet would be able to build and move it without the Federation noticing. On the flip side, the roundabout way they took for getting the colony to Earth by feigning a colony drop on the moon was that the Federation's pursuit fleet expended all their fuel chasing colony at full throttle so a good chunk of the fleet that wasn't destroyed at Solomon and was chasing the colony was temporarily taken out of the picture further reducing the Feddies forces and evening the odds more for the Delaz Fleet as they escorted the colony to Earth. Time makes people forget unless it's hammered into their minds. I mean millennials can't recall some of the major factors of the First and Second World War these days. Also if they're fighting against something, they are going to disregard the flaws on their side, look no further than the political parties in America for that. Although in UC, the Federation are still acting like corrupt assholes who treat the colonists like dirt even after Zeon's war for independence instead of scaling things back to keep another war from breaking out. It's only natural that people go 'Zeon was right' with how things were panning out.

>>14315374
>Also if they're fighting against something, they are going to disregard the flaws on their side,

So, again, as with you, it's all acceptable if Zeon does it.

They could line innocent men, women and children up against a wall, blow their brains out and burn their bodies and I'm sure you'd be able to find a way to justify it.

>>14315391
If it's done in real life every day, I'm pretty sure finding a way to justify it in a fictional setting would be simple.

If you're trying to make this a shaming you need to go all out. Like you need to say something like I'd defend a person who cuts out a 8 month old fetus from a young mother's womb and starts fucking it while going 'baby fuck! baby fuck! it's awwwright' Oh wait That would have been the president of the Federation that did that.

>>14309730
>It's the same reason people worldwide support international capitalist development despite the astronomic loss of life of imperialism, colonialism, and world wars

The first two are attributed to mercantilism though, not capitalism. The two world wars were started by countries with a command economy.

>>14315648
>implying babyfuck ain't awwwright
B_K do you have a hard set of morals? Just wondering if you're utilitarian or if it's purely based on what Zeon did being the right thing.