So /m/, I personally don't believe Zeon Zum Deikun was assassinated. I feel like he has a massive heart attack due to bad health. He was older and under a lot of stress and had bad sleeping habits.
Degwin Zabi may or may not have been "appointed his successor" officially, but I think Degwin was legitimately trying to continue the ideals of Zeon Zum Deikun. In my opinion, Ghiren is to blame for pretty much all the "evil Zeon" stuff that happens pre/during the OYW. Degwin has been shown to want peace talks at the end of the war (MSG 0079), and even has to pull back the reigns on Ghiren when he [Ghiren] wants to start the war during the Zeon rebellions on Side 3 (ORIGIN OVA 3).
So all-in-all I would say Ghiren is a master at media manipulation and politcs, whilst his father is content being a powerful figurehead for the ideals of Zeon independence.
Degwin isn't a bad guy, just a few of his kids are (Sasro, Ghiren, Kycillia <--- assholes . . . Dozel, Garma <---- good guys)
Do you agree /m/?
>>14296788
I personally like Degwin as the guy who did kill Deikun out of ambition despite being his friend and later came to regret it, because he saw the effect it had on his kids and society. I think it's a more interesting route that he changed over time, but did instigate the situation.
>>14296788
You might say that the 'evil zeon" stuff wasn't his intention, and I appreciate the point, but it was Degwin's incompetence that allowed Ghiren's evil. An incompetent leader can be just as bad to the nation as a malicious one
>>14296805
If you take Origin's interpretation that Deikun was off his rocker and about to declare war on the Earth Sphere, you could even say that he eliminated Deikun in order to save Side 3 from being crushed by the Federation.
Zeon died as a result of his own actions and Degwin legitimately took over but led everything to ruin by his hands is what I think
Have you seen the episode of The Origin that came out like a week ago? It has a brief, albeit interesting, conversation between Degwin and Gihren
>>14296861
Well, I think Deikun was probably always meant to be insane or wrong in some way, but I like him more as a peaceful prophet or leader whose ideas were cooped in some manner by his friends and colleagues. It's not realistic, but I do think it's more interesting that he had something good but could>>14296861
Well, I think Deikun was probably always meant to be insane or wrong in some way, but I like him more as a peaceful prophet or leader whose ideas were co-opted in some manner by his friends and colleagues. It's not realistic, but I do think it's more interesting that he had something good but couldn't see the ambition and intrigue surrounding him.
It was while Degwin was still in charge that Zeon put down anyone who protested the war in side 3 using excessive force. He also supported the actions Ghiren took during the majority of the war.
He just comes off as being a bit more peaceful and level headed in the original series because most of what we see of him is towards the end of the war after he's becoming burnt out on war and tired of losing his children. This is obvious in both the original series and the Origin.
>>14296861
I'm pretty sure that if any of them assassinated Deikun it was Sasro. He was the families underhanded guy.
I like that the stories and characters are written well enough that we can have debates like this. Tomino was definitely good at writting 'human' characters with complex motives and emotions, with varying levels of logicalness. (except in zeta/CCA because fuck Katz, Reccoa, Quess, and Hathaway. tho I guess they are still complex and human just supremely unlikable and illogical)
>>14297246
Part of the reason we can have debate like this is that he barely touched Degwin or Deikun and mostly just left them as part of the background so the audience can attribute whatever they want to them. The ones he did use, like Gihren or Kycilia are a lot less ambiguous.
>>14297246
>except zeta
Just because their actions seems illogical you at the moment doesn't mean there is not a basis for them.
Let's take ensign Reccoa for example.
It is explained that she was a child soldier during the OYW where all her friends and possible parent figures died, in the end after various non depicted events she is "rescued" by Lt. Quattro and he becomes a "parent" figure to her.
However it's implied in various occasions some thing is wrong with her, since she had no one to be her emotional support when she was younger. The only way for her to feel release is through danger/thrill seeking, that's why she takes all those dangerous missions, it's also called out by Camile as he is in a similar situation to hers (no parental figures and loss of direction), but his recent encounters with near death and loss of relatives make him understand what Reccoa is doing is wrong(for herself, not the AEUG).
After a near death experience in Jaburo she decides that maybe she should try other outlets for her emotions and turns her admiration for Lt. Quattro in to attraction(whether that decision happened consciously or subconsciously, you decide).
After her "rejection" because char can't deal with all this bullshit(for obvious reasons), she reverts to her old thrill seeking self and volunteers for a mission that as stated by Camille could have been done by anyone else. Having and emotional turmoil inside her, caused by a mix of longing for romance her need of dependence and impulsive behavior, leave her as vulnerable as a deer in the highlights when confronted by Sirocco, a cunning and very charming man who on top of that is a new-type who has transformed UNDERSTANDING into a coercion tool.
cont.
>>14298767
Ensign Reccoa is just unable to resist and finds everything she wanted in this man, which over the course of the next episodes would be affecting her with just his presence in the battlefield.
Really it's no surprise why she deflected, she is a character with great flaws and a small quantity of good traits.
Her whole "I DID THIS BECAUSE I WANTED TO BE A WOMAN" speech with ensign Emma is about this, it's the last tip you get when you want to understand Reccoa(if you hadn't figured her out by that point of the series), she sjut wanted to be a "normal" woman depending on some one who could fill the void of her lost years and make her settle down.
I actually reallly like how tomino Included two women in the "main"cast who happen to be in the opposites end of this "spectrum".
Where Reccoa was about selfishness and Impulsiveness, Emma was about seeing the bigger picture and having a more calm demeanor.
I really like Emma as a character too, because she is able to act as a soldier while keeping her femininity.
As for the Kids(Katz, Hathaway & Quess)
I could write a wall describing each of their specific situations, but I will just resume it into:
Tomino wanted to show that while he stands by his " kids are the future" ideology", they need guidance.
Katz went to space but he just wanted to rush things and become as good as a pilot as Camile, but he was no new type genius and had to train hard just like fa. However he being just a kid he makes a lot of mistakes, and Quattro is not there to guide him most of t he time, like he promised to.
Hathaway is pretty much Katz 2.0 and his point in CCA is to show that even if he is Bright's son he is no better than a normal kid and to be a parallel to Quess.
And to talk about Quest is to talk about Char, just as Hathaway is to Quess, she is to char, and both of them serve to show the problems of a Lack of guidance(hathaway) and improper guidance(Quess).
>>14297177
Abandoned/cancelled plot threads notwithstanding, this is true; he only wanted to sue for Peace once the personal cost became too great. Degwin's no angel. Had Garma survived and/or Ghiren not been SpaceHitler he'd probably have wanted to stay in the game. Kycillia is the more confusing character; she waffles between 'evil'-but-honorable and "Ghiren with a hint of self-awareness" sometimes within the same episode/scene.
>>14298817
Emma was too good for this world.
>>14303178
*was a shit
I know it's blasphemy to admit it, but Iwatched the movies instead of the series because I had already seen the first one and didn't want to wade through 30+ episodes.
To be sure, it's the two Zeta series and then Victory, right?
>>14303352
Also, it seems kind of a dick move for him to leave his dad behind, unless the TV series expanded on that somehow.
>>14303352
>To be sure, it's the two Zeta series and then Victory, right?
What do you mean? In terms of continuity? No, the TV series ZZ Gundam (47 episodes) comes after Zeta. Then Char's Counterattack (theatrical movie).
Victory is a 50 episode TV series set 65 years after Zeta.
>>14303367
Yeah, I meant continuity. Okay, so it's Zeta, ZZ Gundam and Char's Counterattack?
>>14303376
Yep. Those all take place within a couple years of each other and continue the storyline with similar/same setting, some themes, and certain characters.
From the original Mobile Suit Gundam to Zeta to ZZ to Char's Counterattack, it takes place over 13 years and basically wraps up the characters of Amuro and Char (and Bright).
>>14303376
Zeta, ZZ, CCA, Unicorn, F91, Crossbone, Victory, G-Savior, Turn A.
Why does everyone say Zeon Deikun was crazy in Origin? Manga never gave that impression. Are you animeonlys?
>>14296788
Here's what I learned by watching mecha series:
> Never trust the bald guy
>>14303178
Best Gundam girl
>>14303755
I really want to know the name of Emma's hairstyle. It looks boring yet also pretty hot and Emma is an uppity girl, so it fits
>>14296788
>U smellin fine Zeon.
>Stop Degwin das gay.
>>14303755
Emma died for your sins
>>14303178
If I recall correctly, in the PS2 version of Gihrens Ambition if you had managed to save Garma, Degwin will not sue for peace and will instead support the use of the Solar Ray system, allowing Gihren to fire the Solar Ray down the Federations central line, taking out half of the Star One fleet instead of Revils force consisting of 30%. If Garma is dead however, he will attempt to sue for peace, but legally power is transfered to Gihren and Degwin is placed under Federal protection.
>>14303788
I don't think it has a specific name. If asked most people would probably call it a bob. But half of all female short hairstyles are called a bob.
>>14303429
>crossmeme
>>14296851
>An incompetent leader can be just as bad to the nation as a malicious one
But everyone was incompetent in the TV show.
>>14297256
This. Anyone can use their imagination to flesh out characters with little spot light that's literally what kids did back when vidya was in the stone age and sparked nostalgia.
I sort of feel that Degwin isn't the cleanest of guys, but he probably had some form of respect and admiration for Zeon's ideas (albeit not his leadership).
However, he wasn't shy about seizing power in a big way after Zeon's death, and coalescing all of it about his rotundity in a fucking dictatorship.
More than discussing Degwin, it's possibly better to see first if we can nail down Zeon's own character.
I think the guy was probably a manic-bipolar case. When he was manic, he'd dedicate EVERYTHING he had to freeing people from the Federation, and subsequently humanity from Old Type somethingorother like a cult leader who believes in what he's saying. And people liked it one way or another.
He probably was on meth or something as well, possibly self-medicating for his depressive bipolar incidents until he got manic again.
If anything, I believe that Sasro and/or Gihren killed Zeon by introducing him to dangerous drugs to the point it finally kicked his heart off the cliff. Degwin may or may not have been informed, but he honestly seems more of an opportunist in personality than a direct political mover, much like Tokugawa Ieyasu of whom he reminds me a lot of.
>>14304640
>>14303178
Degwin's happiness revolves around his favorite son. However, his anger and hatred really IS directed at the Federation ostensibly over decades of abuse seen at their hands to colonists.
But until Garma dies, he probably doesn't feel like he had a stake in the giant fucking mutual assfuck that was the OYW. Once that happens he's lost everything he wanted to defeat the Federation FOR (so that says to me he didn't believe in Zeon's philosophy, but liked the fact that Zeon didn't like the Federation as much as he).
>>14303745
He's just as much of a loose screw in the manga from stress and lack of sleep. He does the same ranting and raving scene in the manga and scares his wife.
>>14303809
>Do I smell watermelon?
>>14307970
That's if you follow the Origin version. In the original script for the TV series Degwin was going to board Whitebase and ask Sayla for forgiveness as he admits to assassinating her dad. So him being behind Deikun's death was the original plan for the series.
>>14303391
>>14303429
I'm watching Zeta now and three episodes in, I hate Kamille. Does he get better?
Personally, I like the Degwin as an opportunist interpretation.
Stalin was still Stalin, even without assassinating Lenin. And Hitler, too, didn't first plot to kill Hindenburg.
>>14314205
Not until around episode 20 or so. But keep at it!
>>14314205
He calms the fuck down later.
>>14303365
>>14296788
Based on his conversation with Gihren, Degwin's main goal was to keep Side 3 unified after Deikuns death which is why he turned it into a principality. Now the two ways this happened was he either saw the way that Deikun was leading Side 3 to would be a disaster, so he had him assassinated to stop that and then strong arm people to keep the peace, or Deikun did die of natural causes and Degwin consolidated power and eliminated dissidents to keep Side 3 from falling to factional in fighting.
Nope, even in the TV series, the last you see of him is falling down the stairs head first so he might as well have broken his neck when that happened. But yeah, you can watch the Movies since they are the main version of how things play out in the UC timeline.
MGS Trilogy> Z:ANT > CAA >F91 > Victory
They never make a compilation of Victory so you'll just have to grit and bear with it. But this is the meat and potatoes of UC Gundam, just about every other OVA/side story fits in with the exception of ZZ and Unicorn, but from the sounds of it, you'd hate them.
>>14316110
I've liked what I've seen of Unicorn so far, oddly enough. Well, RE: anyway. I'm liking the OP.
>>14316128
Unicorn does the mecha porn really well, but the pacing was really bad along with the heavy handed UNDERSTANDING. Although that was the OVA version, where it was 40 minutes of talking and 4 minutes of actual battles for each one. I haven't bothered with the TV version since it's basically the same thing, but they might have chopped it up to be a bit better paced.
Also, just because it's not canon, it doesn't mean you are barred from watching and enjoying it. A lot of people forget that.
>>14316110
I know I am walking into an open bear trap here, but how exactly do you categorize Zeta: A New Translation as Canon and ZZ and Unicorn as non? Just curious.
>>14317258
I doubt he's being serious, but some people consider ZZ non canon after ANT because Kamille doesn't get mindfucked at the end like he did in the Tv series, which invalidates a lot of what happens in ZZ (I can't say for sure, it's been a while since I've seen ZZ)
>>14317295
I always saw A New Translation more as a slightly more positive alternate universe for the Universal century. Hamans forces escape back to the asteroid belt with Axis, Char has little to no reason for going out and trying to destroy the planet, Kamille is mentally still intact and for the most part, A.E.U.G seems to have enough power to hold its own as the new backbone of the Federation.
With that said, it completely derails and alters the plot line of U.C into new territory, territory that we will never see come into fruition. As bad as ZZ is at times, its still a somewhat important chapter to the Universal Century and a lead into Chars Counter Attack. Unicorn, while I am not the greatest fan of what it tries to do with its understanding message that utterly backfires when you think about late U.C, was a fun new chapter into U.C that had some good action and music.
>>14314205
same. but i really liked him a lot by ep 10 - 15 or so. thought he was credible as the most intellectual of gundam MC
>>14316168
agreed. i loved the first few OVAs. definitely lost interest by the end, but there were still lots of remaining high points that made it worthwhile to me personally.
>>14317328
>Hamans forces escape back to the asteroid belt with Axis
They don't actually. They take their ships, but randomly leave Axis itself behind, which is why people see it as setting up CCA while skipping ZZ.
>>14296788
As we all know, Mobile Suit Gundam was cut short by seven episodes.
The plot outlines for the omitted episodes included mention of a conversation where Degwin admits to Sayla that he did it.
>>14319069
>SALTS
>>14317258
Without going to in-depthBecause certain people here tend to get irrationally angry over basic facts.. We have four timelines for UC Gundam, Movie, TV, Origin and Thunderbolt. (The Movie timeline uses the movies, the TV timeline uses the TV broadcasts, etc.) Specifically regarding your question, it's because the ending of A New Translation invalidates what happens in ZZ, but at the same time, doesn't disrupt any of Tomino's other UC shows that occur later in the timeline. (Unicorn does make mention of ZZ, so it is included in the TV timeline.) Kamille doesn't get brain damaged and Haman takes her remaining forces and leaves the Earth sphere (But also leaves Axis itself and Mineva behind.) The latter is the only loose end from Zeta that ZZ tied up.
>>14296788
I don't agree.
>Black_Nazi in a 'this zeek isn't SO bad!' thread.
Thank god this isn't a drinking game; I like having a functioning liver.
>>14296788
He was a good man.
