So Zeon are the good guys right?
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So Zeon are the good guys right?
Zeon Gundam: The Gundam That True Fans Want
In the universal century Zeon Char Zeon, the coolest Zeon in all of Zeon, was being oppressed
by the big bad evil meanie federation. GMs and Jegans which are lame and stupid were
oppressing the zeons so he got in the Zeon Gundam, which was like the RX-78 but spiky and
bright red. Zeon Char Zeon then unsheathed his zeon made beam sword which was made out of
newtype minovsky particles that were folded over a million times and cut through the jegans.
"Nothing personal kid" he said as he teleported behind a jegan with his newtype powers and cut
him into a million pieces. And then Captain Bright came but because he's cool he's a zeon now
and he took Zeon Char Zeon onto his new ship called The Glory of Zeon where he gave Zeon Char
Zeon the Zeon Gundam Cross Buster Double XVI Booster Gold with TWO beams swords folded over a
billion times each. With his new weapon he went down to earth and started killing all the GMs
Jegans and Federations with his Zeon Gundam Cross Buster Double XVI Booster Gold and his army
of Zakus which cut through all the other GMs and Jegans like they were made out of tinfoil.
Zeon Char Zeon then killed the entire Federation and destroyed the Earth so the environment
could be free from earthnoids. Zeon Char Zeon was relaxing after his victory when suddenly a
bunch of stupid lame pirate guys with midget mobile suits showed up. "Who the fuck are you
losers?" Zeon Char Zeon said. "We're the Crossbone Vanguard! Will you be our friends?" But
Zeon Char Zeon laughed at them cause they ere losers and said "You wish you were as cool as
Zeon!" and killed them. Then a bunch of retarded guys with even smaller mobile suits that had
bug eyes and beam helicopters were gonna ask if they could be friends too but the Zanscare was
even lamer than the crossbone losers so Zeon Char Zeon killed them before they could even ask.
Then Zeon ruled over everything forever. The End.
>>14251186
There are no good guys. That's kind of the point. Even A.E.U.G. weren't even particularly good, what with Wong, corporate backing, siding immediately with the Federation once the Titans/Neo-Zeon was gone and all.
>>14251186
besides muh freedom, what exactly did zeon want?
>>14251229
Dictatorship.
>>14251186
Zeon WOULD be the good guys if their movement was not co-opted early on by the batshit insane Zabi family. Ever since then, any legitimacy they might have had has long since been buried under piles of corpses from their unprovoked acts of mass slaughter, killing Earthnoid and Spacenoid alike. Zeon has long since stopped being about independence, it was all about power and control during the OWR, and its been about revenge ever since.
The Earth Federation is corrupt, yes. But if we are being honest, not really any more corrupt then any large scale government. We keep being told that their treatment of spacenoids is unfair, but we never fucking SEE that. Even after the OYW, which was the bloodiest war in world history at that point and was fought almost exclusively against spacenoids, spacenoids still had a pretty good quality of life after that. The only time we ever see spacenoids living in shitty conditions is when we are talking places that were never originally meant for real habitation that have since become slums for people who have nowhere else to go, like those repurposed mines. Thats exactly the sort of place that would be a shitty place to live regardless of who was in power, the places that were actually built with the intent of being colonies (the Sides) by and large seem to be suburban paradises.
Do the colonies have full autonomy and independence? No. But that makes sense, because the colonies were not settled. The colonies were BUILT. Zeon is like a bunch of different tenants in an apartment building banding together and saying that they declare themselves a sovereign condominium and they don't have to pay rent to nobody anymore, BUT YOU BETTER KEEP THAT WATER AND POWER RUNNING YOU FASCISTS.
>>14251186
Only delusional autistic Nazi spergs like Black_Knight think that. Are you a delusional autistic Nazi sperg like Black_Knight?
>>14251229
The Earthsphere.
Hilariously, I think the sleeves of all people were actually the only zeon with a solid plan who weren't out for some take over the world or super villain tier scheme towards some new age goal.
They wanted evidence of EF corruption to cause a shitstorm to prevent the republic of zeon from being dissolved and side 3 from being returned to the EF. That was it. They wanted the last independant group within the Earth sphere to remain at least technically independent.
>>14251262
Hey, Char's Neo-Zeon had the most solid plan of all. Was it super villain tier? Yeah sure. But it was a solid plan that was executed well enough. Took a liberal splash of newtype bullshit to stop it.
Zeon are literally modeled after the Nazis and Imperial Japan. They were designed to be the bad guys.
>>14251296
His plan was that forcing everyone off Earth would magically turn humans into newtypes and the driving force behind this plan was one man's inability to let go.
一つぐらいそんな話を作ってもといってもいいかもと思ってもガンダムが主人公になるため難しい、それに昔ほど人気もない
>>14251296
> it was a solid plan
No, it really wasn't.
Axis didn't have the payload to cause a global climate shift. Don't get me wrong, it would have righteously fucked up any continent it landed up and it would have been a global catastrophe that would have killed tens of millions of people. But while it had the mass, it didn't have anywhere near the speed to compare to extinction event level impacts. The addition of a bunch of nukes wouldn't have changed that, especially since, being inside of Axis at the time, Axis itself would have soaked up a significant amount of the explosive power of said nukes.
Even if Char's plan had worked, where the fuck was he expecting the Earthbound humans to go? If teh Earth suddenly became uninhabitable, there would have been no time to construct new space colonies to house them all. Everyone who left Earth would have had two choices: storm the existing space colonies, slaughter everyone there, and then claim that as your new home... or drift in their shuttles until they ran out of air and food.
So it could never have worked as intended, even if Axis did work the result wouldn't have been 'humanity moves into space', and that's ignoring the fact that there are soooo many people who already live in space that are not peaceful newtypes, so the plan was fundamentally flawed from the get go.
Its a plan that only even remotely works on Tominologic.
>>14251282
Always wondered who Gihren saw as superior people.
Would that be humans with weird colored hair like him and his two brothers?
>>14251323
No, that's the outcome of the plan, the objective of the plan. The plan is means to achieve an the end, and as far as means go it's solid. If you accept that humans will magically evolve into newtypes in space, it makes sense. I'm not saying that it would actually happen, it's ridiculous, but Char took the appropriate steps to come about achieving his ridiculous goal.
>>14251368
>earth refugees leave earth and that's problem for colonies
Yeah, if the refugees had a sizable number (which i doubt, just how many ships could there possibly be?) that would be a problem for the Sides. But it's besides the point, if there is a bloodbath or not, Char would have achieved the goal of zero earthnoids, (using Char's logic) magic newtype bullshit was only a matter of time. Char was going above political questions, this was to guide humanity not Neo-Zeon.
>>14251243
>The Earth Federation is corrupt, yes. But if we are being honest, not really any more corrupt then any large scale government.
If anything, the earth sphere corruption is more of the uncaring and incompetent bureaucratic mess kind than the deliberately oppressive regime type. Which, if you ask me, is far more benign.
>>14251186
>principality
>of
>zeon
>>14251368
also, forgot to mention, isn't the point that Axis would cause a global climate shift? Like sure you can argue that realistically Axis didn't have the payload and you'd be right. But in gundamverse, wasn't the point that Axis would totally fuck up the Earth?
![snapshot_dvd_02.14.20_[2013.07.15_23.54.30].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/KiB2hTB.jpg "snapshot dvd 02.14.20 [2013.07.15 23.54.30]")
>>14251401
If we go by his speeches, he considered the Spacenoids of Side 3 to be the superior people.
>>14251425
I think its kind of a situation of it being bad enough to stop, but still not bad enough to actually do what the crazy person thinks it will.
Like, is someone wanted to drop a thermonuclear bomb on New York City, with the goal of setting off a chain reaction that will turn all of the seawater in the world into peanut butter, it doesn't actually matter if the second part makes any goddamn sense at all. You still are going to do everything you can to make sure that he doesn't turn New York into a radioactive crater.
>>14251414
That's actually a pretty good point. There are multiple points in the UC timeline were Neo-neo-neo-neo-NEO-Zeon is only a major threat for the explicit reason of the earth federation not having a large, dedicated military force to resist them with. It feels like there are times where the EF, as a planet, has less military power to call upon than modern day America.
>>14251444
No, Axis would have ruined Earth. By that point there had been plenty more colony drops since British and Axis was just the tipping point. A damn huge one because it was so much more massive than a colony and would have generated much more dust but it was not the only factor.
>>14251423
>duchy
>of
>john
>>14251448
These guys are just fat, sleazy bureaucrats living on earth and generally not understanding the outside world, and by that I mean space. These people don't get or care much about the space colonies much like the average westerner on, say, twitter think he understand the situation in africa just because he retweeted some hashtag. They are incompetent, lazy fucks...they are hardly, say the Empire from Star Wars or North Korea. Zeon has a point that its a fucked up regime but the problem is that what zeeks offer is arguably far worse.
Well, that and Zeon has basically given credence to whatever belief might have existed that spacenoids are a bunch of fucking savage and inbred space hicks.
>>14251489
Tell that to Amuro's mom's little town. From what we've seen of Earth, there are a surprising number of lower-class looking people there. For all I know they could just have paid bank on the location but even still their standard of living didn't seem higher than colonists'.
>>14251468
Axis's nuclear thrusters were set to go off like a massive bomb. It's not just the crash.
>>14251512
Probably because Zeon keeps bombing the fuck out of Earth and destroying all the infrastructure they can, while the EF generally avoids blowing up space colonies.
If Zeon drops a giant bomb on a city, it kills most of the people and the survivors have to eek out a living in the ruins or go be refugees somewhere.
If the EF drops that same bomb on a space colony, there just isn't a space colony there anymore. Everyone dies, no one can live there anymore, the only people who survived are the ones we where not there when it happened. So there is a wide range of status that Earth cities can be in that range between 'perfectly fine' and 'totally destroyed' with 'pretty shitty' in the middle. But the space colonies have very little middle ground between 'untouched and fine' and 'gone'.
The only space colony I can think of that was a total hole was Texas Colony, which was explicitly abandoned for reasons so it was basically deserted.
>>14251186
>Zionist
Oy vey, goyim. Truly the chosen ones!
>>14251186
The only thing they did right were those aquatic Mobile Suits and Kampfer
>>14251186
>Zeon thirsts for the blood of its people
Is Zeon the nation itself a vampire?
>>14251186
WE WUZ SPACENOIDS N SHIEEET
>>14251368
I heard somewhere that Axis was larger than the K-T asteroid and that the effects of throwing it at the earth would have been greater than what the movie suggests.
>>14252091
It's bigger, probably by several kilometres, but a lot of it is hollow and it's not travelling at nearly the same speed so it'd do less damage despite the size.
HOL UP
*runs through side 3 with his woes*
U BE SAYIN
*changes name to keep out the clink*
U FINNA BE SAYIN
*cruises down the side in his ms-06*
WE FINNA BE
*blames crimes on the misfortune of garma's birth*
SOME KINDA
*sends his zaku onto pimp my ride*
NUU TYPEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>14251243
>we never fucking SEE that.
Basically, Gundam just needs better writers.
>>14252594
haha epic xD
>>14252052
>>14251243
>What was the Federation's forced migration of a majority of Earth's population to the colonies so the elites could have the Earth for themselves.
>What was the Federation's immediate reaction to Side 3 declaring independence which was to hit them with an embargo and immediately start a massive military build up.
>What was the fact that Side 3 was lobbying the other Sides to join them for 20 years and only Side 6 decided to follow
>What was thinning out the Federation's numbers so Zeon could even have a chance to win the war.
>What was needing resources and to keep the Federation on the defense after the peace negotiations were sabotaged
Sounds like they were doing the right thing to me, so yeah. Stop your oppression.
The problem with assertion is that the Federation forced the migration of billions of people to the colonies and even started to restrict on Earth. (Remember the illegal settlement? There is a different in being a colonist who chooses to explore and settle a new area and being forced to move because the elites of the government want the mudball for themselves. Plus the colonies were producing resources to send back to the Earth, which is what colonies always do. So not including things like taxation, the colonists were beholden to the Federation. Another thing is, colonists over time almost always want to be self determining in their choices and not rely on the parent state regardless of treatment. (But for the most part, the original country just treats the colonies as a vassal.) We won't even touch on the flaws of democracy. Regardless, the Federation greatly overrated to Side 3 declaring independence where they did everything to try quell and oppress them, as opposed to working with them, but making sure the other Sides were kept in line. The Feddies were mad at Side 3 because they'd have to pay for whatever Side 3 created as opposed to getting it for free like they're used to.
>>14252743
>The problem with assertion is that the Federation forced the migration of billions of people
>>14252746
Then would you care to explain how 9 billion of the 11 billion people all ended up in space in the span of about 35 years? Or the fact the Federation space colonization program was designed to move people into space?
>>14252743
>Sounds like they were doing the right thing to me, so yeah. Stop your oppression.
It's a work of fiction, not a social movement, you Hitlerite.
What's next, #zeeklivesmatter?
>>14252743
Close your parentheses. For someone who's been arguing on the internet for probably around a decade you've got some terrible writing.
>which is what colonies always do
Any proof of that? I won't deny that it could have happened but if you're going to make the claim I'd like to see evidence of what the trade situation was in the Earth Sphere.
>Another thing is, colonists over time almost always want to be self determining in their choices
And support a dictatorship? Although the colonies deserved better, what the majority of a group wants isn't necessarily best for itself. That's why we have rules in place for the government instead of relying on a simple majority vote of the population.
>We won't even touch on the flaws of democracy.
So much for self-determination.
>Regardless, the Federation greatly overrated to Side 3 declaring independence where they did everything to try quell and oppress them, as opposed to working with them, but making sure the other Sides were kept in line.
It was an embargo (who'd've thunk that they'd be a little miffed at you for saying that they don't have to follow your rules anymore) and the construction of a fleet. One was because they didn't want other sides to get the wrong idea and the other was because Zeon had a militia. When a self-sufficient anti-Federation group comes into power and you have no way of preventing them from militarizing, the only thing they could do was have a force large enough to shut down Zeon before they could do some real damage. And if they really wanted to use their fleet to crush Zeon, why didn't they? I believe you mentioned that after ten years Zeon only commissioned a transporter. So after ten years of build-up, the Federation does nothing against a near-defenseless Zeon?
>because they'd have to pay for whatever Side 3 created as opposed to getting it for free like they're used to.
Clearly you don't know how colonies work, be they past or future. See first response.
>>14251190
Thank
>>14252755
>Are you tired of living in an over-crowded city with infrastructure designed to hold 3/4 of the population at best? Come and live in space, the Federation will do anything to get you up there. You get an amazing new city that is actually meant for the population it holds, and people down below have some breathing room. It's a win-win no matter how you look at it! Come sign up today at your local Space Immigration Bureau.
I'll bet it was much cheaper for the Federation to build those colonies than for them to have to deal with the crime and resource drain of 11 billion people on Earth. There's no reason why people (besides those like Amuro's mom) wouldn't line up at the door to get their spot on a shuttle reserved ASAP.
>>14252831
You could do it with a lot less words. One word specifically.
> Jobs
There, that's all you have to do. You promise people jobs they'll move just about anywhere, anytime, any day.
>>14252817
>I believe you mentioned that after ten years Zeon only commissioned a transporter. So after ten years of build-up, the Federation does nothing against a near-defenseless Zeon?
That's Black_Knight lying out of his ass. The Papua was originally commissioned as a warship.
>>14252817
>>14252831
>>14252836
>>14252858
Nyet. Do you know what a colony is and its main purpose? In general, not just the Gundam version. They exist to bring back resources to the homeland. If Earth was just fine without the colonies, the Feddies wouldn't have shit themselves over Full Frontal's plan in Unicorn of cutting Earth off from trade. (Non canon yes, but it's a point of reference.) You'd be surprised how people would willingly put the chains of a leader who's one of their own people, in order to cast off the chains of a foreign ruler. Remember, you had people who wanted to make George Washington king after the Americans won the Revolutionary War. You're trading the tyranny of the individual for the tyranny of the majority. So you're admitting the Federation overreacted out of fear other Sides would follow suit used the Embargo to make an example of Side 3? Also are you suggesting a militia is a justifiable reason to do a massive military build up? The Federation could have approached the situation diplomatically to have relations be on applicable terms, instead they go full intimidation to keep Side 3 in check. You don't build a shiny new fleet and then parade it around Unless it has a purpose. As for why they didn't destroy Side 3. Bad politics that would turn the other Sides against them because if they did it to one group, what would stop them for doing it to the rest? Then you'd need to destroy them all. Refer to my previous point. You might be able to say some of the population agreed with the ideas you stated in terms of starting anew or jobs, but over 80% of the population? There were people getting eviction notices to leave the planet.
>Commissioned
Wrong, it was commissioned as a transport ship. And even then, it was commissioned well after the Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan was finished that the Feddies were already starting the the Year 70 Armament Reinforcement Plan. Because if there's something the Feddies love, it's a show of force.
>>14251190
And it would make the most money of any Gundam ever.
Admit it Black_Knight, you took off your trip and made this thread just so you could have a new place to spew your zeonwank.
>>14251702
Valvrave pls
>>14251186
yes do not believe the feddie propaganda
>>14252602
Alternatively, Gundam needs better fans.
>everyone says "it's the writers' fault we never see the atrocities"
>no one ever asks "is it possible the baby-murderers were lying about the atrocities?"
>>14252755
>the Federation managed to put billions of people into boxes and force them to labor in space
>the glorious revolution didn't arrive until several decades later
>but it was staged by a very small portion of these poor, angry space-slaves
>who none of the other space-slaves really wanted to join
Have you considered that perhaps it didn't happen and that old fuck complaining about it in Unicorn is just the spacenoid equivalent of my crazy grandpa who lives in Darkest Mississippi, ranting about Obama cropdusting everyone with AIDS chemtrails, using HAARP to turn people gay, and waiting for the day the CSA rises again?
>>14252743
>>14253509
Here comes our member of Turner Diary recitation group who reads Mein Kamf like bible.
Sooner you kind will perish from the entire universe when your genes and spacenoids superiority will be exposed to the cosmic rays of apathy.
Now,go ahead and swin in your piss pool of grandiose by writing wall of text of pointless so that I can roll on my floor, laughing.
>>14253665
>Gundam needs better fans
I blame the AU Gundams
>>14253509
>Wrong, it was commissioned as a transport ship.
You're just as bad a liar as Char. From Mark Simmons' timeline:
>U.C. 0069.10 The Principality of Zeon commissions the first ship of the Papua class.
>* According to Gundam Century and Gundam Officials, the Papua was originally designed as a missile cruiser and later converted to a transport ship.
>U.C. 0074.04 The Principality of Zeon commissions the first of an improved type of Papua-class transport ship.
>* According to Gundam Officials, this new version features a Minovsky fusion reactor, and its missile storage has been converted to cargo space.
>>14253746
But no one ever complains about who the bad guys are in AU. It's only UCfags who get defensive about muh Zeon. Everyone else can say without shame that Zanscare or the Frost Bros. were crazy motherfuckers and it's okay to like their suits because they look/are cool without having to justify all the evil stuff they do.not that X is an AU
>>14253756
>From Mark Simmons' timeline
Thinking a white man's timeline is canon.
>>14251401
David was one of them. Guy was living the high life surrounded by sex maids in a luxury villa and all he had to do was play chess with Gihren once in awhile.
>>14253766
The Frost Brothers weren't even a faction, they were just 2 mercenaries who primarily were employed by UNE.
>>14253775
A white guy who's worked for and done translation work for Sunrise. Which makes it more canon than the BS regularly spewed by Black_Knight.
>>14253785
Go back to bed Mark.
>>14253782
But they were stylish, which is 90% of the reason people like Zeon.
There is literally no group that is above suppressing the people they control that are trying to fight for independence. Even America put Filipinos in concentration camps (not the nazi kind, it's work camps where belligerents are "concentrated" in one place so they could simply starve to death). You can't claim some kind of moral high ground because every human that is alive if you go far back enough has the blood of genociders and oppressors in them.
>>14253790
Well Zeon haters are well known for the mad ons for Hugo Boss because they have no fashion sense.
Zeon is the old Imperial Japan which Tomino, unlike his viewers, is old enough to remember how horrible it was behind the propoganda.
The Federation is the often corrupt, inefficient oligarchy that was the Japanese government of the 70s.
That's it, that's all there is to it.
>>14253766
but we can agree AU fans are worst
>>14253839
At least AU fans don't fight each other.
>>14253835
>Zeon is the old Imperial Japan which Tomino
The federation is loosely based of Imperial Japan
>>14253766
Well, there are still arguments over the factions who were right in CE, especially during Seed Destiny... other than that, UC is the only series where we've actually seen fulling redeeming AND condemning qualities on both sides of the wars.
>>14253841
AU fans are mostly made up of weab casuals with shit taste
>>14253835
Well most Japanese of Tomino's time have no warm feelings for Imperial Japan. The far right has always been a small minority.
>>14253851
Mecha fans have a tendency to be nationalistic.
>>14253843
That doesn't really make sense in context. Especially considering later works like Unicorn blatantly reference the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere for the Sleeves.
>>14253849
>with shit taste
If you're watching anime, you already have some level of shit taste. I've learned to accept that about myself.
>>14251190
"Written and illustrated by Black_Knight".
>>14253880
>If you're watching anime
kek
>>14253843
[Citation needed] The only thing Imperial Japan about the Federation is the tendency to slap around lower ranking troops. Otherwise, the Feddies, especially their corrupt, ineffective government, are clearly based on the LDP.
>>14253880
Meh when I compare anime to the capeshit you see in movie theatres (fucking captain America- seriously?!) I don't feel so bad anymore.
>>14253990
What's wrong with Captain America?
>>14253851
>The far right has always been a small minority.
one would argue they're a growing minority now
>>14253999
Oh every minority is claimed as a growing minority.
>>14253509
So often you change the argument to "was what Zeon did morally justified?" to "would people have done it given the situation?" or "could Zeon have won the war without it?". People engaged in the holocaust and some thought they were doing the right thing. That doesn't mean it was right.
>Remember, you had people who wanted to make George Washington king after the Americans won the Revolutionary War
Those people are retarded and didn't deserve liberation. The point of freedom is to be free. Obviously some will choose to live under the heel of a ruler but that's not what Zeon claimed to be fighting for nor was it what they should have been fighting for.
>So you're admitting the Federation overreacted out of fear other Sides would follow suit used the Embargo to make an example of Side 3?
No, that's a perfectly normal action to take. If they wanted to be independent, they were self-sufficient and could handle it. Freedom isn't free. Zeon killed 1/2 of humanity's population because they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
>massive military build-up
You mean for any potential threats an entire side with a militia could create? Yeah, I think it's justified. And obviously if you want the enemy to think twice before causing conflict, you make a show of force.
>would turn other Sides against them
So how was the fleet even relevant to Side 3's safety? If they weren't going to use it then they're safe to continue diplomatic relations instead of building up not!SS.
>>14253880
I dunno, I'd say old UC is actually well done based purely on creativity and effort. 0079 was a big risk at the time, and it would have been easy for Tomino to have just done a re-tread of 0079 in Zeta. But instead he tried something new and more creative with the Titans and putting a spin on the post OYW world.
>>14253509
>You might be able to say some of the population agreed
Consider today's world except for every two human beings on the planet there is now a third one. Even better, consider the world of 1979 and imagine nearly two more people for every single person. That's including China and India, remember. Now imagine every country in the world is all under the administration of one world government and that government has to keep people happy. Do you think that you could be happy in such a crowded place? Not to mention what the other anon said, which means a solution to living conditions and employment. You'd be surprised what those 80% would do when you're living in a first-world country but remember that most people don't have anywhere near the opportunities and comfort that we see today. And once the sides are established, they're open for business. Now you have businessmen and companies looking to invest money and people into colonies. That means new opportunities for people of all classes. Everyone benefits. I'm going to need actual evidence that the sides were at a significant trade disadvantage or something.
>it was commissioned well after the Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan
and well into their military build-up
>that the Feddies were already starting the Year 70 Armament Reinforcement Plan
Wrong, it was commissioned in 69, months before the Y70 plan.
>>14253912
officer uniforms and naval ranks you noob
>>14251190
Rumor has it in the second Season Zeon Char Zeon becomes friends with Mikazuki, Kira, and Setsuna and they all get cool matching masks
>>14253998
It's a popcorn movie with bad writing based on a ridiculous comic. It's not bad but it shouldn't make you ashamed of watching Gundam Age.
>>14253999
Doubt it. Japan still doesn't love their military and going into the JDF is still a last resort if you cannot find a job elsewhere. The government had a lot of trouble changing the constitution and I don't see Japan becoming more militarily adventurous in the near future.
Democracies only turn into military dictatorships in times of crises and rarely by choice
>>14253999
because the yakuza are bullying people to join them
>>14252755
The explanation is "that's logistically, socially, and technologically impossible and therefor fucking retarded".
Even ignoring that the construction effort to build enough colonies to house that many people is a task that, by itself would easily take 100 years, we are never shown any vehicle in Gundam that could provide a ferry into orbit that could transport enough people to make up that number within that length of time.
And its not like you are going to have cooperation for that sort of social engineering. We can't even get 9/10ths of our population to show up to free ice creme day at the mall, you expect 9/10ths of the population to march in single file onto ships to be fire into space? How do you enforce that? Even if you presume the remaining 10% of the population is NOTHING but militarized force, they are still outnumbered 9 to 1.
It would be more realistic to say "one day, the entire human race fell asleep and most of them woke up a few hours later on space colonies with no idea how they got there or who build these mysterious megastructures. Some people blame god, others blame aliens, others pin it on a government conspiracy but no one really knows for sure".
>>14255162
Turkey says hi.
>>14251190
>Zeon Gundam: The Gundam That True Fans Want
We already have this. It went by a different name, but still the same story.
>>14255162
That's actually changing. As the older generation is dying off, the military is gaining more respect. Not the people in it, but the concept of a Japanese military is being taken more and more seriously.
>>14255394
>And its not like you are going to have cooperation for that sort of social engineering
Getting about ~80% of the population into space makes more sense when you think about the environmental movements clashing with the technological progression of the '70s and looking at the world of Gundam through that lens. Obviously the world Tomino wanted to depict was one that could not sustain 11 billion and required the space colonies to continue living. And if the world is at a point where living is unsustainable, wouldn't you want to move to space colonies? The idea that all 9 billion would want to stay on Earth doesn't make sense, as is the idea that even a majority of those people would want to stay. Black_Knight has zero evidence besides his own headcanon revisionism that even suggests that people were sent forcibly.
Like you said, it wouldn't work in real life because the numbers aren't realistic. But the reasoning is there and it makes a hell of a lot more sense than muh poor spacenoids dindu nuffin and got evicted from a planet under serious strain.
>>14251229
Genocide.
>>14256012
It's no wonder Black_Knight likes them so, since he's advocated for genocide as not only the best measure of population control before, but a necessary one being as how a small population has less different views and interests, less demands politically and spiritually and so on.
>>14251186
>So Zeon are the good guys right?
Nope. They're bastards with a capital b. Bastards and genocidal. Space Nazis.
>>14253839
The opposite. UCfags are only capable of shitposting
>>14251243
Colonies are self-contained ecosystems. They can mine asteroids if they want more material, and can trade like any other self-contained place.
>>14252743
Talks about the historical context and why the colonies shouldn't have to pay for the building of them.
>>14256178
>Colonies are self-contained ecosystems. They can mine asteroids if they want more material, and can trade like any other self-contained place.
Oh yeah ? And where do you think those asteriods come from ? Do you think they just park themselves in earth orbit ? Someone has to pay to fucking go to the asteriod belt and bring them back. Someone has to pay to fucking mine them and build the colonies. So the colonies are independent my ass. They're earth property. The Spacenoids want independence ? Let them organize a trip to the asteroid belt and bring back some of those rocks. Then they can all go live happily in the caverns they dig out.
>>14255139
One can almost feel how much you are trying to be a special snowflake
Has anyone ever considered the war was morally grey and both sides did unjustifiable things?
I mean Sieg Zeon and all but some of that shit really can't be defended, from gassing a bunch of people, to child soldiers, to indiscriminate use of CRBN on both sides.
There's a lot more but I can't remember any specific war crimes on a grand scale by EF, if you don't count singular incidents like KIKI or hiding weapons in a neutral area in violation of treaties.
Generally speaking the War was indignant laurel-resting reactionary gravity-fuck assholes who couldn't see a fucking war coming versus upstart oversensitive spacefuckers too busy jerking off their superiority when they couldn't design a fucking tank right or stop making new weapons for every last possible thing.
The thing they had in common is they both fought to the nail and both saw themselves as righteous good guys fighting the incarnation of evil itself.
>>14252743
Uh, you do realise most of Zeon's resources came -from- earth, not went to it, right? I mean that's why Odessa was so insanely important. Asteroid mining just wasn't as good as a planet.
>>14256023
Theoretically, what's stopping us all from taking his name and a random trip during Zeon threads until he goes away?
>>14257188
Holy shit, I just realized what's happening there.
>>14257199
Zeon chicks succumbing to superior Feddie dicks?
>>14257199
Upstanding and moral Federation soldiers escorting Space Nazi supporters to the brig where they will await lawful judgment?
>>14257199
Whereever the EF goes, he must also rape.
>>14257188
The problem with Gundam is that the crimes of the Feddies are almost never as bad as what Zeon does in the very show, manga, or novel they complain about the Feddies.
I don't know if this is cognitive dissonance on the part of the writers or if everyone is just taking it the wrong way and seeing Zeonwank when the writers are trying to show that Zeon is a bunch of hypocrites. You just can't tell sometimes.
Even when someone cites the Titans it's hard to take it seriously when the Titans sparked a civil war and then Neo-Zeon sides with the Titans anyways.
>>14257217
>>14257223
Glorious Glemy is about to be conceived.
>>14257281
I think it's the lesser evil fallacy; the feddies aren't 'quite' as bad, even though half the shit they do really is questionable, it's alright in the name of fighting Zeon who did x; the EF hasn't been living up to its ideals since the original charter if you believe unicorn, and is insanely corrupt especially post-oyw. Look at them violating Side 6's neutrality and reabsorbing both them and Side 3.
Zeon on the other hand tries to justify a lot of the INSANELY STUPID THINGS it does as their righteous holy war for freedom for spacers, or for pushing contolism; getting everyone off earth to let it heal (And conveniently in Zabi control.) It's a common tactic for cults, revolutionary armies and even first world nations, and the EF starts using the same excuse around Operation Stardust.
Arguably Tomino is biased towards the EF due to protagonist status, even though they treat Amuro like shit; there's sympathies in Zeon at times with guys like Ramba Ral, the regular soldiers, but I don't think he liked people rooting for the resource-starved isolated nation with imperial ambitions for some reason.
The biggest Irony, if you believe Gihren's greed is, if Zeon wins, none of the post-OYW shit happens, things return to a rigid but relative peace with just more statues of Gihren around, so who knows what the fuck to think.
>>14257347
>aren't 'quite' as bad
Killing half of humanity isn't even in the same galaxy as what the feddies do. What should've happened at the end of the OYW was the utter destruction of side 3 in retaliation for their unrestricted use of strategic weapons. That the feddies didn't do that is incredibly lenient of them.
>>14256023
It always amuses me how internet fascists (usually privileged first worlders) like to preach this sort of nonsense without realising that if these sorts of policies were to get carried out, they'd probably be some of the first ones shipped off to the death camps. Because you know, overweight autists who leech off their parents and spend their days shitposting on the internet aren't likely the type of 'superior people' allowed to live in the Glorious New Society.
>>14257378
Did you miss the part where both sides used unrestricted nuclear, chemical and biological exchange and both accrued that death toll together?
And in what universe does mutual genocide justify further genocide? I mean, sure, if you want war after war after war after war, go right ahead. History's full of examples.
It'd be selling every bit of anti-EF propaganda with interest to every other Side and your own forces who aren't so wanton crazy.
If you want proof of that one; the EF justified the Titans on the actions of a remnant Zeon fleet proving their anti-zeon propaganda. Revanchism gets you nowhere.
>>14257458
Justify doesn't even enter into it. If someone at a fed planning meeting, or their congress or almost literally anywhere said 'I say we blow up all the zeek colonies' there would be enthusiastic support.
Zeon killed half of humanity. 1 out of 2 fed citizens died. I can't even imagine the level of rage something like that would cause in a society.
>>14257470
>Zeon killed half of humanity.
Every episode of 0079 references that the EF and Spacenoids killed half of the other's respective populations. Most people were in colonies by 0078. Are you just referring to the general population as Feddie and cutting out the hardline Zeon?
>>14257470
>both sides lost half their respective populations
>both sides
>both
Explains the Titans, really. 'Sure, we both killed half of eachother, but only our people matter'.
>>14257506
That's all wrong though.
>>14257512
That's a mistranslation by Ocean. The proper translation is "Humanity lost half its population."
>>14257521
Not exactly relevant; both sides did serious damage to one another's population.
>>14257532
Its extremely relevant. Zeon only started losing significant numbers of people long after it had gassed 4 fucking sides worth of colonies and wrecked earth's climate with colony drops. There was no byplay of forces, the feds didn't up the ante by matching zeek atrocities. They just straight up murdered 1/3 of the race in the first few days of the war.
![snapshot_dvd_01.40.49_[2012.12.15_11.36.20].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/zDbqjBx.jpg "snapshot dvd 01.40.49 [2012.12.15 11.36.20]")
>>14257506
That line was a mistranslation that was corrected in the subs of later DVD releases. The corrected line is in pic related.
>>14257547
Except it's not. The point of the Antarctic Treaty is both sides agreed to stop using superweapons. that is not something you agree to unless you've lost a lot to superweapons. This isn't hard.
>>14257597
Yes. Fed nukes stopped zeon advancing. So zeon would obviously want that not to happen.
On the other hand, feds would like the genocide to stop.
But these things are totally analogous to space nazis.
>>14257532
At no point in the war was Side 3 attacked. It's outright stated to be the Side least touched by the war. Don't you think if the Feds had killed half of Side 3 that Gihren wouldn't be broadcasting that fact 24/7 to rile up the populace (just like ZAFT did with Bloody Valentine)? Instead we get the opposite. The entire point of Gihren's speech at Garma's funeral is to rally a population that's disillusioned with the war (especially the quagmire on Earth).
>>14257597
Because both sides gained from the Antarctic Treaty. The Feds got a guarantee that the Zeeks wouldn't nukes/gas colonies or drop large objects on the Earth while the Zeeks removed the Federation's strategic nuclear arsenal off the table (it's possible that if the Feds launched an all-or-nothing last ditch attack on Side 3 with all their nukes that it could destroy or significantly damage Side 3). Also, it's likely that Zeon had already planned for the Earth invasion at that point and nukes would have been an excellent counter to that (nuking the HLV's as their entered atmosphere or nuking Zeon's landing points).
>>14251548
Side 5 was obliterated during the Battle of Loum, Side 1 was gassed to death, Side 4 became the Thunderbolt Sector.
>>14257399
>privileged
This isn't the website for you, try reddit or tumblr or someplace that buys into your social justice cult.
>overweight autists who leech off their parents
>implying we don't need jobs to afford gunpla
We're not political dissidents, so assuming (because it fits your persecution complex) that we're mostly straight, white men and that straight, white men are responsible, we should be fine.
Now fuck off back to your safe zone.
>>14255394
>Some people blame god, others blame aliens, others pin it on a government conspiracy but no one really knows for sure".
Sounds like a good plot for a sci-fi novel. Not an anime or a manga since Japs would fuck it up, but still. A good plot.
>>14255907
Didn't Unicorn even say that a ton of people migrated to space willingly, rather than live on a dying Earth? And it was only later that people started regretting it and wanting to go back?
>>14257199
They're not being raped, they're literally being dragged off to jail or interrogation. Those two are Gihren's hardcore racist space bitches, of course they're not going to treat them with kid gloves. They even have a woman officer there to do the patdowns.
>>14257470
I..shit, man, you've stumped me. I mean, you do know the average human balks at genocide, right? I know the general sentiment after WW2 was open murder of Germans, but nobody actually went through with it.
>>14257488
My point was that Zeon did some insanely stupid fucking things and undermined its own cause from the start, but neither side are remotely 'The good guys'. Wars aren't black and white in any manner, and the EF spent the after-years imitating Zeon hilariously because they believed they were so incorruptible and righteous, using all those conscripted child soldiers (JUST LIKE ZEON, BUT DIFFERENT), using Nukes, ditto, using false flag units (Ditto), active political repression and violent suppression (Ditto), violation of treaties and side neutrality...
The thing about moral supremacy is it doesn't work by 'He did it first'. You're still doing really questionable things.
>>14257602
They never really went into detail with how effective nukes were in the OWW, the only time you see one is when M'Quve shits all over the antarctic treaty because he's losing and can't understand political ramifications. I'm still amazed the EFF didn't call the treaty off after that amazing bullshit, disarmed or not.
>>14257650
One of the gundam books states that Luna II alone had enough nukes to turn Side 3 into a void, and it's probably Jaburo was loaded to the tits with missiles to boot.
>>14257680
People were hopeful, idealistic, and attracted to the idea of space travel and habitation, so there was great support for it. It's not like they rounded people up and put them on prison shuttles. The EFF also took the opportunity to deport undesirables and the lower class into space too. Some places are just fine and there's a fairly comfortable standard of living like Side 6 or the lunar cities. Other places are worse off and that led to dissent.
>>14257693
Zu jeder Zeit
an Jeder Ort
bleibt das Jun
Der Menschen das gleiche
>>14257347
The original charter is extremely retarded though and no one can blame anyone for wanting that last clause wiped from history.
How would you feel, as a non-newtype, if you were basically mandated to give up everything and throw your support behind a space wizard that may or may not exist just because a rock said so?
They basically had a superior race clause baked into the original charter that became space wizard aryan zeons because of Zeon Zum Deikun.
Imagine if there was an African Federation in ancient times where they were getting ready to expand outside of Africa and then everyone in charge agreed that if people with white skin show up they should rule the world.
>>14257718
now imagine if you spend enough time in space, you also became a space wizard, it's not so much they were born better, but for some reason being in space makes you better, like with half the crew of the white base
>>14257726
Too bad the only people that ever seem to display space wizardry are people in combat roles or prostitutes.
>>14257718
That's a fair point, but it begs why it was in there in the first place; nothing suggests Contolism really had any major support outside of side 3 and nobody has remotely heard of newtypes until late in the OYW.
Politicians write some stupid shit, but you don't tend to put big clauses in like that for no reason in the galaxy's most important document.
Part of me wishes they'd done more with the BIG REVEAL than magic newtype love robot brings world peace, though; if the whole 'Spacenoids are treated as a seperate caste' deal is real and not just a persecution complex, it'd be interesting to see the fallout and political aftershock. People would start getting even more rose-tinted about Zeon.
>>14257718
Why does the original charter even matter.
It's not the charter that they signed.
Imagine if one day someone said "hey guys turned out there was a hidden clause in the American constitution granting the lizard people special privileges" or something. You'd tell them to fuck off.
>>14257670
It's got nothing to do with that social justice nonsense you fuckwit, I'm just pointing out how usually those who wank off to how great authoritarianism is are probably (like you) spoiled first worlders who've never actually had the pleasure of living in some authoritarian shithole.
>We're not political dissidents, so assuming (because it fits your persecution complex) that we're mostly straight, white men and that straight, white men are responsible, we should be fine.
First off, I said nothing about race, so thanks for revealing your own persecution complex. Secondly, I meant it in the context of Gihren' plan, you know >>14251282, where he's going to start culling the weak to make way for the Superior Race? Somehow I don't think fat autists who spend most of their time bitching on the internet or building plastic toys fit under Gihren's definition of Superior Race, so you might as well get ready to be culled.
>>14257739
If we were being realistic then they weren't writing about space wizards. Since it's Gundam they were totally writing about space wizards, and since it's not Tomino they were writing about space wizards to retroactively justify Zeon rather than make sense politically in any capacity.
>>14257739
Fukui probably didn't think it through. The only reason it exists is so it can prove how Zeon was justified and in the right all along and to shit on the Federation.
>>14257779
Well fuck, I didn't think Unicorn could get any more retarded, but you've proved it.
>>14257735
Newtyping is really inconsistent; Lalah was from Earth and the guy before him was on the Jupiter fleet. That's some real polar opposites of SPACE GIVES YOU WIZARDY.
Maybe destiny really wanted to give Char a love interest only to take it away from him.
>>14257796
Don't forget Amuro was born on Earth and bounced between Earth and the colonies.
By UC0100, for whatever reason, Earth has no only produced the majority of newtypes, but almost all notable natural newtypes have fought for the Federation.
>>14257813
And the son of Zeon himself was a pretty weak newtype, if one at all.
If Zeon hadn't had all the cool toy adverts and Tomino had been lazy and avoided humanising parts of Zeon, /m/ wouldn't have anything to argue about anymore.
>>14251282
I always construed that 'Maintaining the population at this level' as controlling births and practicing societal eugenics to suit his 'Superior race' idea rather than open human culling, like China is trying and failing at.
Though, honestly, he'd probably just find a second Cima and gas another colony 'accidentally'.
>>14257851
He only didn't have to practice human culling anymore because literally half the human population was dead because of him by this point. He'd already finished the mass culling part and was moving on to phase 2.
>>14257874
I meant some people imply he'd keep continued, repeated genocides every time there was a population spurt. It seems more reasonable to just restrict breeding through various means; that's a lot easier in a controlled environs like a colony.
>>14257888
>It seems more reasonable
Something tells me reasonable is not really a priority for zeeks.
>>14257766
Your salt could resupply White Base.
Unless you're North Korean, you're a "spoiled first worlder" too, and I refuse to flagellate myself from coming from the greatest nation that is, ever was, or ever will be. God bless America. God bless the American people. Death to every single globalist.
Also, there were plenty of fat autists serving in the Zeonic military, did you even watch MSG or were you too busy penning angry articles about how there aren't enough minorities represented? The superior race, by the way, is the citizens of Zeon. That's all it means unless you can prove otherwise. A fat autist from Zeon is worth more to Gihren than a genius bodybuilder from Earth, because Gihren is fucking crazy.
Now go cry to tumblr like a good little cuck. Go on now. Mommy's making you tendies if you earn enough good boy points.
>>14257740
>>14257718
This is why Full Frontal made perfect sense and did nothing wrong. His only flaw was that his plan wasn't crazy and dramatic enough for Mineva and Banagher was her bitch.
>>14251190
I'm busy with other stuff for a while, but I'll get back to refuting the rampant misinformation in due time.
Although just to point out. The reason why the Feddies didn't try to attack Side 3 with their nukes during the One Week Battle was because they couldn't. The destruction of the enemy aligned Sides also destroyed whatever fleets that were stationed there and removed any opportunity of creating a staging ground to attack Side 3 during the first few days of the war while the Federation was regrouping. And if the Feddies tried to prep their nuclear stockpile at Luna II to send any fleet to attack Side 3, Zeon would have ample time to prepare since Luna II was opposite of Side 3.. And after Operation British, the Federation was in no mood to send any of their remaining fleets to the wolves so they held back. Zeon couldn't directly attack Luna II because the Feddies would use their nukes to defend it and would have the advantage of knowing when the fire them at the approaching Zeon fleets. This is why Zeon decided to leak the fake intel of doing a second colony drop to lure the fleets that were hiding at Luna II out into a what was intended to be a decisive battle at Loum. And the rest is history.Why do I get the feeling that more than a few of you, out of some perverse pleasure, secretly want me to write a story about Zeon in the vein of Half-Life: Full Life Consequences?Featuring: Scorch Aznable, Char Aznable's brother.
>>14258208
I think you're a faggot, but I'd pay to read that.
HELLO I AM BLACK KNIGHT
WE WUZ GOOD BOYS
WE DINDU NUFFIN
GIHREN WAS GOING TO REDUCE THE POPULATION AND GET HUMANITY'S NUMBERS UNDER CONTROL.
ALSO I LITERALLY CANNOT TAKE THESE THIRTY DICKS OUT OF MY MOUTH.
>>14258227
You'd be right baby sweetness ~_^
>>14257718
>>14258167
>Team Banana is Awesome reveals the box
>entire population of the Earth reveals that the Federation is absolutely retarded
>completely loses faith in the government
>economic diaster follows
>Federation's power collapse, they abandon the colonies
>Jupiter uses this opportunity to fund armies like the Crossbone Vanguard and the Zanscare Empire to fight against the weak Federation in proxy wars, causing countless deaths
>all of the Federation's efforts towards peace up to 0093UC have been totally undone
>all in the name of muh possibility
>yfw the disastrous late UC was directly caused by Banana and Mineva
How'd that SOREDEMO go for you?
>>14258386
Wait, people on Earth still had faith in the government and didn't realize what a corrupt, dense bunch of fuckwits the EF was years ago?
That said, I agree and find it hilarious. I just don't see how Mineva ever expected this to help the Sleeves aside from SORE DEMO.
>>14257458
>Did you miss the part where both sides used unrestricted nuclear, chemical and biological exchange and both accrued that death toll together?
Well, here's the thing - that's said to happen, and yet the only damage seen from nuclear or chemical weapons is witnessed in the form of the colonies that Zeon nuked and gassed.
>>14258208
That just makes me miss Johnny Spaceboots. And...it never really covers how minovsky would effect ICBM use. I mean, at this stage surely the EF has developed IPBMs, wouldn't they have silos pointed at every colony with a hardon just waiting for them to try something?
>>14258610
It makes it kinda sad that the OWW is mostly glossed over besides Loum, british and flasbacks.
The opening days must have seemed like the apocalypse itself. Even Zeeks sources admit they most lost of their veteran military at that point.
All we kinda get is TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, GAIJIN, IT WAS HORRIBLE.
>>14258386
I think it'd be more reasonable that people would be skeptical about what would be more likely a Zeek-made fake and you'd at worst suffer a bit of secession from areas of earth. Maybe the sides would try to breakaway and form a coalition or something.
Either way if you think too hard it's really retarded a plot point.
>>14253756
>>14254048
>>14255394
>>14255907
>>14257188
>>14259271
How did I even lie? Read what I said and read what's in the 'evidence' you presented. Except those arguments never happened or I was needing to counter whatever banality that was suitable for opposition. Morality is relative, they wouldn't have had as much success if they didn't use the strategy employed during the OWB, and of course Zeon couldn't have won the war, or even have a chance if they didn't. How philosophical, the problem is the argument that you need order and stability and that regardless of the outcome, men must be governed. You can quibble over the details regarding that and the examples in history. Then why do everything to try and break them economically and saber rattle and not expect some retaliation? That's not rational. Yes, a militia is a MAJOR threat. Do you even know what a militia entails? So you're saying Side 3 shouldn't have built up their own military and risk the Feddies just rolling them over one day? I assume you're a millennia and have no attachment to your home to make that sort of argument that over 80% of the world would move to space if given chance. Compare that to the time Gundam was made as well. And even if people started to move, I find it extremely unlikely that over 85% of the population would willingly shift to space. Hardly, they just started rolling out their first military ships by the time the Feddies were already initiating their second massive military build up. It's bad writing then, but you have to find a way to create a reasonable explaination to get over 85% of the entire world's population to migrate into space. You can say 9 billion people on earth is absurd, but the more absurd idea is having 9 billion migrate to space. Basically, you're seeing people only as pure opportunists and not taking into account personal factors. Where you will have many people just wanting to stay on Earth because it's their home. And space is to big a move for them.
Because the colonies are not independent and basically a vassal state where they pay taxes and send supplies back to the home country. Depends on the resources, certain ones were specifically necessary for the war effort came from Earth, which is one of the factors for why they invaded. But before that, the Federation had an Earth Sphere wide embargo on Side 3 so no one could trade with them. Sans NGO not beholden to the Federation. So even if their quality of life suffered, they found a way to manage. Because of minovsky particle jamming, the ICBMs couldn't be guided, so basically the Feddies would either have to have a fleet to to Side 3 and launch them, or fire them from Earth and hope for the best in terms of calculating they'd not only make it to Side 3, but some of them would hit. So just launching their nukes from Earth at Side 3 would be a massive waste of time, since while colonies are big to us, they are atoms in the vastness of space, and it would be like trying to shoot a bee, with a pistol, a mile away.
The only other thing of interest is how people like to whitewash what the Federation in Zeta where the Titans killed the entire populations of multiple colonies in that show, and did it to intimidate, not because of the strategic value. And here we have people give them a free pass arguing that because they didn't kill as many people as Zeon, you can't compare it. If you're going to get huffy about genocide, you can't just create an arbitrary number to say 'anything below that is find, anything above it is unacceptable' in order to defend your side. It's just hypocrisy, plain and simple.
>>14263350
Look, fag. People like Zeon for the human and realistic grunts and minor officers and the cool MSes. When you start defending the Zabis, you turn into an asshole and make the rest of us look bad. Please curb your autism.
Also
>Morality is relative
That's SJW talk, son. Morality isn't relative.
>>14263549
People were arguing morality is relative long, long before the internet, never mind the internet invention of social justice warriors.
>>14263350
>Morality is relative
Ah, there's the problem. You don't need to fear God to see that there are certain standards humans should abide by. But if you're willing to give the Zabi family your full support then you're already too far gone.
>>14263354
>multiple
Two.
As opposed to entire sides Zeon nuked because apparently killing everyone would be an easier option, going by your logic.
>>14263549
Zeon is Black_Knight's waifu. You'll never be able to get to him.
>>14263701
Gato is his waifu. Zeon is his govermentfu.
>>14263350
>I assume you're a millennia and have no attachment to your home to make that sort of argument that over 80% of the world would move to space if given chance. Compare that to the time Gundam was made as well.
I assume you have never lived the optimism of the Space Race or understand the hope of a new frontier. Like the ones who sought a better life in the American continent or the Manifest Destiny, you have to realize that your homeland is limited. When there are 11 billion on this planet and the Earth is crying out under the strain, will you pout and sit your ass down because you're afraid of the new world or you love your plot of land that much? Because chances are, when the population reaches that number and everyone's living in a crowded suburb or a stifling city, you're not thinking about your home.
The government is still under the Federation no matter where you go so there's no patriotism involved. If anything, the willingness for most to move to space should show how necessary the move was. People like Amuro's mother are seen as strange even within the series for not being able to live in space. I love my home but if it had twice its population, life would be fairly hellish. The place is already packed with people and cars (the punishment for living in California, I assume) as it is and no amount of infrastructure upgrades could physically make this place suitable for so many. This place isn't the same as it was in the 60s, or the 80s, or even the 90s. I think you're ignorant to people's feelings and fealty towards the place they were born in, especially under extraneous circumstances.
>I find it hard to believe 85% would migrate to the colonies
>bad writing
All it comes down to is if any material says that people were forced into space. If there's none, they weren't. If there is, they were.
>>14258164
Hi, Black_Knight
>>14263549
What a strange contrast.
The guys who kicked off the genocide street and most of the atrocities have the more human and likeable characters and grounded people.
The more reasonable federation is full of self-destructive assholes who spend more time infighting than anything and whose sanity consists entirely of Revill and Bright.
Maybe that's why the EF always comes off as corrupt assholes.
>>14263601
I'm of two minds of the Zabis.
Gihren was completley fucking off the wall insane and convinced they were winning at A Boa Qu, and destroyed a chunk of his own forces just because he didn't want the fucking war to end on more reasonable terms.
Degwin just turned into a corpse after Garma died and signed off responsibility consciously to Gihren, fully aware of the shit he was spouting.
Garma was a nobless oblige caricature who had some competence but was there by his name and was definitely way below his rank.
Everyone loves Dozle.
Kycilia was cold, calculating and might have killed her own brother, but she had a human side and was a lot more reasonable than Gihren, mixed with a hilariously bad judge of character in Char and trying her best to infight her brothers.
I mean, you could give Gihren a tophat and a mustache for his shit, but the loyalty shown to the other zabis is understandable even if a little questionable.
>>14263354
>Because of minovsky particle jamming, the ICBMs couldn't be guided
that's actually a really dumb reason.
you could just pre-program a missile's flight path.
>full burn for twelve seconds
>coast for twenty minutes
>2%burn on thrusters 1 and 3
>coast for twenty minutes
>4% burn on thrusters 2 and 3
>coast for 20 minutes
>EXPLODO
It's not like earth's atmosphere where you have to constantly correct for wind resistance, crosswind, aerodynamic imperfections, etc. A missile launched in space shouldn't have much trouble hitting a six mile long target even if it is on the other side of the moon.
>>14263726
I thought Gihren was his waifu. Even Gato would be appalled at some of the disgusting shit that Black_Knight is defending, like >>14251282. Deluded as he was, Gato was always more of 'MUH SPACENOID FREEDUMMS!' guy than 'MUH SUPERIOR RACE!'
>>14264005
Don't minovsky fuck with unshielded electronics as well, or did I misread that?
And nukes in space are a mite less effective; no overpressure wave or fun like that, sadly. You'd completley atomise a colony, but you'd need to get it in the fireball if i'm not mistaken.
Course if you used several MIRVS, there'd be too many for even Zakus to intercept. I think Tomino wanted to avoid the nuke issue altogether.
>>14264050
>unshielded electronics
shielding isn't really that difficult to do. shielding a missile is considerably easier than, say, building a mobile suit.
Not to mention the fact that as long as you're only trying to prepare it to fly from point A to point B along a pre-planned route, you could actually accomplish the timing of the steering thrusters with clockwork mechanisms (springs, not pendulums, obviously because space).
As for the effect of nukes in space, it's complicated by the presence of a colony. The reason nukes aren't as BOOM in space as they are in earth's atmosphere is because nukes actually explode the air. With no atmosphere, you get a substantially shorter chain reaction, no blast wave, no firestorm. You still get a megadose of Gamma, UV, and X-ray radiation iirc.
Now when you actually have a six mile long cylinder full of air that you're hitting with that nuke, things get a bit different. The burst of radiation will rapidly heat the surface of the side of the colony cylinder exposed to the blast, and uneven heat expansion is highly problematic for a pressurized container in a vacuum. If the hull of the colony is breached while the burning of nuclear fuel in the warhead is still in progress, the leaking atmosphere from the colony gets lit. Also, thanks to Mr Newton, even if the air doesn't become part of the chain reaction cycle (and it is rather unlikely to be honest), you still have air escaping rapidly through a large fissure on one side of a pressurized container in a vacuum which basically turns it into one of those fireworks that spins really fast and jumps around erratically. Not a good scenario for the other cylinders in the bunch.
But of course all this is moot because of the Antarctic Treaty.
>>14263889
>I assume you're a millennia and have no attachment to your home to make that sort of argument that over 80% of the world would move to space if given chance.
He says this when we live in a world where millions of people brave a perilous cross continental journey with their fate in the hands of shady people smugglers to leave their shitty 3rd world countries for the opportunity of a better life in Europe. Yet somehow those same millions and more wouldn't jump at the chance when the Government is literally giving away free jobs and houses for those that move into space because of 'Muh Land' or 'Muh Pride'? You really are deluded.
Do you honestly think some farmer in the 3rd world living in a shack with his wife and 6 children is going to give a shit about 'MUH LAND' when he can't feed his family due to climate change and the Government is offering him a job, a nice spacious house, schools and facilities for his family AND offering to move them there for free?
>>14263889
>All it comes down to is if any material says that people were forced into space. If there's none, they weren't. If there is, they were.
Even Unicorn, which literally Zeon Historical Revisionism: The Anime, admits most people moved to space willingly.
>>14263974
Could Gihren have won A Boa Qu though? For all his insanity he was still incredibly competent.
>>14264362
These people move away from freedom and rights right into them.
The colonists lost everything. The right to vote, to have a government, to be represented. All their labors were taken from them and except for side 3 none were allowed their own industry.
They became slaves.
>>14264453
Doubtful. The Solar Ray had evened the odds, but the Federation still enjoyed superior numbers, plus they had the advantage of veteran pilots on their side.
>>14264453
The numbers are sketchy, but the general idea is the Feddy force was at least twice the Zeon's force, may more, even though Gihren thinks this is the last attack of a beaten, exhausted fleet after firing the solar ray, it does come off as a delusion he genuinely believes, while Kycilia's outlook is a total collapse on all fronts and delaying actions until she can retreat to Side 3 or elsewhere to negotiate terms. Even if your commander is amazing, Zeon's army really was falling apart apart in those last months and it shows.
If he'd let the Solar ray be set up properly, maybe, but then Degwin would have agreed to a truce, making it moot.
Lastly, even then Zeon was literally on its last legs. They had Axis, part of the Moon and forces left behind on Earth like the Midnight Fenrir. Delaz running off like a bitch didn't help things, but any win would have been incalcuable in losses. Win the battle, lose the war and all that, especially if the EFSF just move their own superweapon in.
Even with a dead commander, a non-working superweapon and conscript children in complex, hard to maintain weapons, A Boa Qu was still one of the bloodiest fights of the war.
There's a FMV in one of the later gundam games showing some of the front lines at it that was pretty interesting and just how tooth and nail the fighting got.
![LOGH Episode 14(DVD) - Central Anime(1d8ec5a6).avi_snapshot_02.03_[2016.05.23_07.13.26].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/117SZme.jpg "LOGH Episode 14(DVD) - Central Anime(1d8ec5a6).avi snapshot 02.03 [2016.05.23 07.13.26]")
>>14264464
>Muh Freedoms
See pic related. Also, stop spouting off Full Frontal's propaganda. Even Gihren Zabi admits that the Federation is a democracy.
>All their labors were taken from them and except for side 3 none were allowed their own industry.
False. We see industry in several colonies outside of Side 3.
>They became slaves.
No, they are citizens that the Federation undertook an exorbitant amount of resources to build new homes for so they don't have to starve in some dustbowl or suffer living in a refugee camp. Slaves are the citizens of Zeon, who live and die based on the whim of a bunch of self-appointed aristocrats,
Meanwhile from a polish /pol/...
boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/74818114#p74820223
>>14266546
Newfags can't redirect.
>>14252743
oh boy, it's this retard
>gasses colonies
>drops a colony
you can go on, but at the end of the day it's a cartoonishly evil faction for a children's cartoon
>>14258164
/pol/ please leave
>>14266884
You could argue that a Colony drop was literally the only method Zeon, a much tinier nation had at chance of destroying Jaburo and forcing a capitulation; Jaburo's survival leads to a complete loss of the war by Zeon by the old 'Tiny advanced nation with an early advantage against the sleeping giant with near infinite resources and capacity'.
Zeon had to win on a timetable, they didn't. That kinda desperation probably excuses a lot of things in people's minds; it's why Insurgencies and rebels and other 'freedom fighter' group pull atrocity after atrocity in the name of Unilateral warfare, because Zeon really could not go 1:1 on EF's terms. If you fight your enemy's war, you lose.
Of course one of the Gihren's Greed games shows Zeon building a fucking mass driver and just annihilating Jaburo anyway, which makes the fucking GASSING NEUTRAL FELLOW SPACENOIDS AND DESTROYING THE ONLY LIVABLE AREAS IN SPACE just kinda show Gihren drank his own fucking kool-aid.
https://youtu.be/NkEUnS0ScfQ
>>14263354
>>14263350
>>14251243
This is, without a doubt, the *best* analogy for Zeon I have ever read.
>>14263549
>>14263601
>>14263648
>>14263889
>>14264005
>>14264453
>>14266884
So Moral Universialism isn't a concept philosophers like John Locke have been talking about for centuries and is just a recent construct from SJWs? Nice try at poisoning the well. At least 3 based on the TV timeline. (30 Bunch, the one Reccoa gassed and the one that was lasered.) Keep in mind they also attempted to gas other colonies and attempted a colony drop on Granada. But Feddie apologists will say because the number of people killed were less, than what Zeon did, it's not a grievous of a crime in comparison and thus they get a free pass. If you're looking for historical context. Both of what you listed work against you. For the Great Migration, only 50,000 Englishmen took the journey to the new world. You also have to take into account that 5,000 of them migrated back home when the English Civil War broke out, so they were still connected to their home country. Further more, a majority of those who immigrated on later dates were either indentured servants. And a small group of individuals with weren't poor, but didn't own properly in England, so the idea of become a land owner became appealing. Now keep in mind this was only for those who could pay their way in. Everyone was not automatically given land or a home. However, later on, England was considered extremely crowded in the 1700s, but while immigration to America was made easier, the amount of people moving from England to America DECLINED. Furthermore, Manifest Destiny was purely about patriotism, it was that god had given the US the right to dominate the entire nation space of the America from coast to coast. So to imply there is some urge for people to explore the new frontier would mean to invoke a nationalists fervor.
You're also continuing to ignore glaring problem that when enough people move out to 'stabilize' the population on Earth, why would people choose to continue to move to space willingly? If all the new people who were overpopulating your area left, would you have any incentive to leave then? Believe it or don't people are still attached to where they live and it takes extreme circumstances for them to leave. If you think things being overpopulated will get people to leave, look at the Kowloon Walled City. Only a massive government intervention tore that down. I'd like to see material saying they all migrated willingly. The bigger issue would be the launch window and making the calculations to have the nukes even get to Side 3. Because you have to remember, it's not a stationary target, it's going to be move in orbit like everything else. Even the slightest miscalculation might make the misses fly off course by a 1000 miles. Things were going well when Gihren was still alive, But you have to remember that Kycillia was dragging her feet with the reinforcements from Granada and after Gihren was assassinated the chain of command completely broke down and some of the units under Gihren's command decided to fall back from the battle further reducing their forces. Will we ever know if Gihren would have won if he was able to continue to coordinate his forces? No, to many different factors involved. But that doesn't mean it isn't a possibility. The other big thing was the Federation scraped together all their remaining forces for Star One. Had Zeon rallied and wiped them out. There would only be token defense forces and the odd off patrols left for the Federation in space. At that point both sides would be completely exhausted (Feddies could build more weapons, getting the pilots and crews in timely fashion is another issue all together.) and a new peace negotiation would more than likely be started up. Yes, go to war and not try to win. That will end well.
>>14271998
>So Moral Universialism isn't a concept philosophers like John Locke have been talking about for centuries and is just a recent construct from SJWs? Nice try at poisoning the well. At least 3 based on the TV timeline. (30 Bunch, the one Reccoa gassed and the one that was lasered.) Keep in mind they also attempted to gas other colonies and attempted a colony drop on Granada. But Feddie apologists will say because the number of people killed were less, than what Zeon did, it's not a grievous of a crime in comparison and thus they get a free pass. If you're looking for historical context. Both of what you listed work against you.
Hahaha holy shit all of this doublethink. So it's morally relativistic when Zeon does it but it's objectively evil when the Titans do it? Amazing.
Does anyone get the feeling rooting for either side is a retard's game?
I mean fuck, this is like Kingseeker Frampt and Darkstalker Kaathe, they're both out to fuck you.
EF just takes a bit longer about it.
>>14274424
Well, if you WERE living in UC you'd have to choose a side. It's fun to play pretend, in an autistic way.
Bright should have just expanded the AEUG and taken over.
I'll admit, Zeon has some cute girls.I wish I was a qt Zeon pilot.
>>14272034
>Combines two separate replies
>Doesn't understand the historical context of colonial immigration and why it can't be fully applied to UC.
>Thinks that one group can be excused for their actions while another can be condemned and tries to spin that as a damage control
One, learn to read. Two, either the Federation and Zeon were wrong in their actions when they attacked colonies, or they weren't. You can't say one group gets a free pass because of numbers or intent.
>>14275143
>>Combines two separate replies
The last person with any right to call out others for this is you.
>>14275143
How many of those actions were before the Dakar speech, which was the point when the Federation withdrew support from the Titans?
>>14271998
Why the fuck are strings of numbers relevant? Why the shit are you going on about 'muh forced relocation' like it's relevant to what you addresed?
>>14263648 here. You said that people like to 'whitewash' what the Feds did in Zeta, gassing three colonies because they did it to murder and intimidate and the moves were devoid of any strategic value, and yet, completely disregarding your unsupported conjecture about colonial garrisons and how they'd totally be problematic in the face of mobile suits armed with nukes, you are entirely alright with suggesting that Zeon killed billions of people because it would be easier to deal with.
But then again, you're a Nazi in all but name, it's no surprise you'd condone mass slaughter.
>>14275221
>But then again, you're a Nazi in all but name, it's no surprise you'd condone mass slaughter.
It's rather fresh that the guy who advocates genocide and mass murder as acceptable forms of population control is railing about how EEEVIL the Federation is for their method of dealing with overpopulation (moving people into space). Does that mean that the Federation would be less evil in Black_Knight's view if instead of shipping the excess population to live in comfortable space colonies they'd simply marched people into gas chambers instead? Or is genocide only good when Zeon does it?
>>14275146
>>14275194
>>14275221
>>14275890
Well I'm treating you as one person making separate posts for practicality sake, also doesn't excuse the point. Titans are still a Federation group even if they were disavowed. 'Why is data relevant to making a solid argument?' Again, you seem to ignore what the Federation did and give them a free pass because Zeon got a higher score. Also I resent the fact that you call me a Nazi when there are plenty of groups that have committed genocide throughout human history. It just shows you're lazy since you just use the most publicized one. Yeah, because asking your side to be consistent is such a crime on my part.
How is this thread even still alive?
Are there seriously still people who think they can convince Black Knight that he's wrong? You'd have better luck moving a mountain with your song.
>>14278568
What authoritarian group that supports mass murder for population control, land grabbing and/or political ease would you prefer to be associated with out of interest?
>>14278665
Well scratch out authoritarian group and you can expand the scope of groups that have committed genocide quite a bit.I'm just trying to get you to expand your knowledge on the subject since you like to complain about it so much. So look some up and surprise me.
>>14278736
No, I'm aware there are other groups and even what some of them are. If you want people to stop calling you a Nazi though, it's up to you to name a group. People call you Nazi because you support an authoritarian group that supports mass murder who are based explicitly on Nazi and you seem to be authoritarian and support mass murder yourself. If you don't want to name a group because you'd prefer to play the "I know more than you" card then don't complain when people call you something you don't like.
>>14278568
>Also I resent the fact that you call me a Nazi when there are plenty of groups that have committed genocide throughout human history.
Indeed there are, and while I can freely name examples like the Khmer Rouge, the Ottoman Empire's perpetration of the Armenian genocide and ISIS, to name a few, you openly support and advocate the policies of a faction that is deliberately styled on both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, to the point where you openly suggest that the citizens of the Sides should have died because it would be simpler for their Space Nazi overlords and refuse to address Gihren's blatantly obvious motive of ethnic cleansing, amid his obvious similarities with Hitler.
>Again, you seem to ignore what the Federation did and give them a free pass because Zeon got a higher score.
Just as you seem to ignore any moral implications on Zeon's part and just say that it's easier resource management to kill billions of innocents, but hey, that's just me talking.
>>14278748
>>14278793
You seem to misunderstand a few things, I don't resent the fact that people call me a nazi, I resent the fact that people just automatically got to Nazis when there are plenty of other groups that have committed genocide, it just shows intellectual laziness. If you wish to be lazy and go with the go to group, I can't stop you, doesn't mean if you can't expand your horizons a bit. This guy gets it in terms of being able to name other groups. I'm just saying, you either condemn both groups, or you don't. Just pointing out the hypocrisy on your side.
Zeon did nothing wrong
>>14278800
Well, you certainly don't seem to be condemning Zeon yourself. Pot, kettle. Not surprising, really.
>>14278813
I wasn't condemning the Feddies actions in Zeta either in regards to them destroying colonies. I just am pointing it out to show the hypocrisy on your side, so I'm remaining consistent,
Also the kettle is more versatile than the pot. You lose again.
>>14278800
Okay. You're blatantly ignoring that people are calling you a Nazi not because they're the default group though, but because it fits given your support of Zeon who ate blatantly based on them and espouse some of their ideology, like mass murder for political ease and land control. You can call it intellectual laziness if you want, but that's not the right along at least some people do it.
>>14278821
> right along
Meant reason, autocorrect got it.
>>14278820
Yes, you were. You explicitly said:
>The only other thing of interest is how people like to whitewash what the Federation in Zeta where the Titans killed the entire populations of multiple colonies in that show, and did it to intimidate, not because of the strategic value.
Meanwhile, over in the other thread where you're fixated on defending mass murder because the 'good guys' did it:
>You make sure to remove any places they can take root.
>It was heavy handed, but was necessary so they didn't have to fight unnecessary battles in the future.
For one, it's needless intimidation, for the other it's a tragic but vital necessity based on conjecture.
Fuck off.
>>14278821
>>14278834
>their ideology, like mass murder for political ease and land control
You're talking about just about any colonial power when you use those as standards. Just pointing out their motives for it, that doesn't imply I condemn or condone the actions. But keep up with your conjecture.
>>14278905
Except it does, because you have never erred from saying shit like the Feds are callous bastards who gas colonies and use them as shields out of spite and ease and a want to intimidate, and yet as far as noble, glorious Zeon is concerned, everything they do can be excused, at least according to you.
>>14278905
I'm not talking about just any colonial power though, because Zeon isn't based on any/all of them, it's based on the Nazis. Which is part of why at least some people are calling you one. Keep up with the denial if you want to though.
>>14278915
>>14278917
That's just you assuming motive to what I was saying when the motive was always to point out the hypocrisy of people who deride the tactics Zeon but decide what the Federation did in Zeta was perfectly fine or not as bad because of statistical reasons. I'm just pointing out that the standards you listed could apply to others. But you're clearly stuck on the whole Nazi analogy.
>>14278921
Of course they apply to others historically. Zeon isn't based on those others though, it's based on the Nazis. Which is why people are calling you one. That's not being stuck on them or ignorance of other historical factions that have commit genocide, it's just simple association.
>>14274424
It's all about the MS aesthetic you prefer. Sieg Zaku, baby.
>>14278930
I saw them more based off Imperial Japan, where the german aesthetics were injected later by other directors and writers.
>>14278940
That's fine. Most people see the Nazis as being a large part of their genealogy though, so they call you one based on that.
>>14278944
That's their opinion on the matter then.
>>14278921
>That's just you assuming motive to what I was saying when the motive was always to point out the hypocrisy of people who deride the tactics Zeon but decide what the Federation did in Zeta was perfectly fine or not as bad because of statistical reasons.
And who did that, pray tell?
You're still not practicing what you preach because you continue to condemn the Feds for just about everything despite most people being entirely aware that they're not blameless, but with Zeon there's always convenient wriggle room.
>Killed millions of innocent, unarmed Spacenoids?
>It was to make their campaign of conquest easier because they'd have less people to deal with and they'd also take out harmless Feddie garrisons. 'Tactical necessity'.
>Zeon has the blood of Sydney on its hands?
>Technically, based on personal conjecture that is not colored by bias at all, the Federation's desperate attempt to break it apart caused it to crash into Australia, so really it's their fault.
>Gihren wants to thin out the population and rule what remains of humanity as an authoritarian dictator?
>Eh, he's really a cool guy, don't worry about it.
Reminder that Zeon are so bugfuck insane, too, that Gihren's Greed can have them do Operation British 2. Not like they felt guilt over the first failure, evidently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhuyl9nMfmg
>>14267274
Don't you have a Starbucks paycheck to donate to Bernie Sanders?
America a best, the two strongest gundams are American, or arguably Lunar which is the same thing because the Moon is rightful American clay.
>>14278947
Well thank you Captain Obvious. That's what I've been pointing out from the start. The only one saying otherwise was you.
Black Knight summarized in four letters. TL:DR
>>14263974
Dozle was best boy
>>14278940
> injected later by other directors and writers.
Even the original show draws a parallel between Gihren and Hitler. The scenes of his speeches are intentionally reminiscent of Nazi rallies.
They certainly have imperial japanese influences as well, but the Nazi stuff was there from day one man.
>>14278940
>>14278944
nazi germany and imperial japan were similar but still distinct. They developed more or less independently.
Zeon is just imperial japan with a nazi germany skin.
You can basically substitute the federation with europe+america and the colony with colony.
>>14278999
Yes, but the Nazi skin is still there. And being able to substitute them doesn't mean it isn't.
>>14279010
the UC situation is really just a copy of pre-world war 2 asia.
Zeon's justification for going to war is the exact same as the Imperial Japan's justification for going to war.
>>14278940
Black Knight what's your opinion on later Char? Was dropping axis morally wrong? Did neo neo zeon du nuffin?
>>14279020
Okay. That's fine and all, but most people are aware of the Imperial Japan connection, at least here and my only point is that the Nazi connection is there regardless and that that's the main reason I, at least one other anon are calling him a Nazi.
Everybody remain calm. ECOAS is in the house.
All zeeks please surrender.
>>14279042
I am pretty sure you could call BK a gay Nazi Communist North Korean Muslim terrorist Fundamentalist Scientologist fan of SEED Destiny and most of /m/ wouldn't give a shit.
>>14278935
Oh, no, I love Zeon's suits, but it's really fucking hard to turn a blind eye to the shit they pull. Like, even in-series. The Jormungand crew freak the fuck out when they realise what Operation British is doing.
People like Ramba Ral fight on for their own reasons, I guess, but most of the time the back of your mind is 'please get me away from this retard Gihren, please Kycilia or Dozle take over for christ sake, SOMEONE SAVE GARMA.'
But even then MILLIONS OF SPACENOIDS DEAD FOR NO GOOD REASON
So why is it the colonists have to be somehow deprived to be justified in demanding independence?
The average citizen of British America probably lived better than his contemporary in London, but was still perfectly justified in demanding representation or autonomy.
Though admittedly, the Zeon situation is more akin to the war of 1812 involving the complete genocide of Canadians, nuking Bermuda, and dropping Philadelphia onto Edinburgh, but still.
>>14280298
They had independence. Zeon separated itself from the federation like 40 years before the war. They were just butthurt that the tide of support they expected didn't materialize and they basically turned into north korea, except Zeon's deal leader actually went through with his threats to nuke everyone else.
>>14278952
>>14278955
>>14278990
>>14279010
>>14279041
>>14279559
Wrong, I'm just explaining how you can justify Zeon's actions during the one week battle and pointing our why Feddie apologists are hypocrites for not condemning their own side for committing similar actions. Also innocent? They sided with the Federation and would have fought Zeon's forces if they did go to their colonies, they were fair targets. Redirected by the Federation onto the land of shitposters. The Feddies did the world a favor in that case. It might have brought long lasting stability to the Earth Sphere, would that be a bad thing? You make it sound like the colony drop is a bad thing, Is there anyway to destroy Jaburo that wouldn't take inordinate amount of resources? Even a mass driver shooting rods from Side 3 to Jaburo wouldn't outright destroy it because of how deep it is. Well they have a right to their opinions, I'm just giving the most reasonable and believable explanation. Firing up large crowds means you're Hitler. When did Hitler hold a rally with giant portraits of a recently killed family member, or anyone really? Having a skin of something doesn't make you that thing. Good idea to force people to migrate off Earth, but he's an idiot who let his personal emotions and vendettas destroy any organization he is a part of. Only Oliver was distraught while everyone else accepted it was part of the bigger war plan. It was to show contrast that he was an idealistic greenhorn and didn't understand the cost of war.
>>14283241
> you make it sound like the colony drop is a bad thing
I always like that you make it sound like the Federation deliberately redirected the colony to hit Australia specifically and not just tried to stop it and ended up hitting Australia anyway.
How do you actually pronounce Zeon?
It sounds like they say it with a gee sound but I'm not sure.
>>14283241
>Wrong, I'm just explaining how you can justify Zeon's actions during the one week battle and pointing our why Feddie apologists are hypocrites for not condemning their own side for committing similar actions.
Well, no-one's disputing that because you always have an excuse for your favorite band of space Nazis.
>They sided with the Federation
What, by process of association, you genocide advocate? They didn't take up arms against them, and every single thing you have ever said regarding colonies is pure conjecture.
>You make it sound like the colony drop is a bad thing
Not making a good case for yourself.
>Firing up large crowds means you're Hitler.
Being obviously based on Hitler and having the same plans as Hitler and being directly compared to Hitler means you're Hitler.
Speaking of which, don't you have a copy of Mein Kampf you should be reading? You've never said no to me asking if you're an out and out National Socialist.
>>14283241
>not condeming the federation for its shortcomings
everyone in this thread has acknowledged the federation were not moral good guys, the point you don't understand is that zeon are just objectively worse than the federation in terms of the objectively bad things that they both do.
in b4 >genocide, terror bombing, targeting noncombatants, and the like aren't objectively bad,
i'd expect nothing less from a nazi sympathizer edgelord really.
>>14283291
>>14283331
>>14283367
>>14284649
I never said it was intentionally redirected onto Australia, however it's only natural for you to try and distort what I say. 'Zee-on' Clearly there are people who are disputing that on your side, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this. Not process of association, they were part of the Federation, the government, military, you name it. It's not guilt by association, it's the fact that all the Sides were under Federation law. If they weren't, the whole idea of declaring independence from them would be a bit odd, wouldn't you think? Seriously. how was Girhen based off Hitler. The speeches aren't comparable, Zeon never set up concentration camps with the sole intent of them to kill people. I'd like to know your logic more than 'he killed people, that makes him Hitler!' Well, they aren't you need to live in reality where moral universalism doesn't exist. Although at least you're mixing up the buzzwords now.
>>14283331
Welcome to the Japanese language. The character ジ can be read as either "ji" or "zi". Jion is technically correct, but Zeon is the official and perfered translation
>>14287722
>Seriously. how was Girhen based off Hitler.
I can't say for sure but I think maybe it was the part where Gihren literally compared himself to Hitler.
>>14287722
> Operation British was redirected by the Federation on to Australia
> No mention of Zeon and their responsibility in the matter
> ever
> What do you mean that makes the Federation sound responsible for it and not Zeon?
>>14287780
I dunno, maybe it was the part where he ordered the gassing of millions of people? Perhaps it was the part where he hijacked a political cause to turn it in to a military matter? Maybe it was him foolishly over extending himself and his country's resources in a multisided war?
>>14287780
To be fair, Gihren didn't know who Hitler was. He thought he was some dude from the middle ages
>>14288342
Gihren knew who he was and was referring to the 20th Century as the middle ages because it was so long ago to society at that point that the term had shifted meaning.
>>14287780
>>14288335
He only said it as a means of retorting his father, Also he didn't say he was Hitler, just his follower. Well if the Federation didn't interfere with the drop, it wouldn't have fallen onto Australia, would you agree?
>>14291795
He was still compared to Hitler by his father in that case, and while I would agree that the Federation had a hand in the colony hitting Australia I would never use the word interfere, since that implies it was a bad thing for them to do so. They attempted to stop it and couldn't, with it ending up hitting a different place despite their efforts. Which is a far different thing. Zeon are still responsible for dropping it.
>>14291795
>just his follower
What's the difference? Doesn't that imply he follows the same ideals as Hitler?
>>14287722
>it's the fact that all the Sides were under Federation law.
And by that same token, every civilian in every extant country is 'under the law' of their respective nation, it doesn't mean they support what they're doing. with furious zeal. Do you not know about cases like Vietnam, the American Civil War, at least in the case of the South in the later years, or the War of 1812? You're essentially advocating mass murder again, as you do, because since they're citizens, they must automatically support every endeavor their government undertakes for no reason.
>I never said it was intentionally redirected onto Australia
And yet despite that claim you have never once shifted the blame to Zeon. You don't find them culpable at all for anything. Every single time Sydney is mentioned, you blabber your apologist diatribe and say 'Well, it was a necessity and if the Federation hadn't gotten in the way the war would be over', like everything to do with Zeon ever.
>The speeches aren't comparable, Zeon never set up concentration camps with the sole intent of them to kill people
No, instead Gihren literally handed his father a plan detailing how the excess population would be culled for Zeon, and how the ubermensch spacenoids would rule what remained.
Mass culling of undesirables? Lebensraum? The fuck are those?
>>14291795
If Zeon hadn't set the colony into orbit in the first place, it wouldn't have hit anywhere
And several million people would still be alive.
Christ you make us zeeks look bad.
>>14283241
I can distinctly remember the redhead Officer woman who kinda reeked of INTERNAL AFFAIRS even being disgusted at it, because she knew exactly what it entailed.
It was meant to infer #NOTALLZEEKS were behind what the fuck was going on, but weren't going to defect either.
I mean, y'know. Like humans.
Black_Nazi either a troll or the biggest false flag in /m/ history, so I don't know why you faggots keep feeding him.
>>14293746
I use to think that too, then I saw him make a multi-paragraph reply to an autosaged thread on the verge of getting archived just so he could get the last word in and 'win'. No troll or falseflagger is that dedicated, or insane.
>>14253782
The Frost brothers were fucking cool.
>>14252602
>"We never fucking see that!"
I refer you to Unicorn and the past of Zinnerman and his crew. I refer you to the initially peaceful protesters being gunned down and blown up by tanks in "THE ORIGIN". I refer you to the Shanghai colony in ZZ, having been given full leeway to basically enslave the entire colony under a semi-communist regime. I refer you to the creation of the Titans and their allowed marauding throughout the entirety of Zeta, treating every spacenoid they see as some inferior swine worthy to be gassed by "DANGAR" gas-canisters.
The creation of the Gryps laser 1 and 2 used to intimidate their opposition, their underhanded beuracratic ways of assassinating AEUG officials as well as Zeon loyalists to ensure supremacy in government. Purely Earth-beneficial economical deals meant to taxate every spacenoid working in the colonies and on all the asteroids without enough due compensation for several years, as seen in Zeta and ZZ where kids grow up poor and uneducated, leeching of off society.
How about the supreme orders of destroying any opposition of the EFSF in the Zeon military academy 0074, by desiring to humiliate their mock-squad of new spacenoid soldiers and giving them exact orders to crack down on ANYONE who tries to alienate themselves from the federation?
And then we have the Augusta newtype labs, but that's a whole other can of worms.
The federation lacks respect for the colonies, won't give them any autonomy, and just throws out any people deemed useless on Earth to serve as resource gatherers. (At the start of the universal century, according to information given in Unicorn)
It's the space version of the European Union. If Africa were a part of it (the colonies), only used for mining and resource gathering by the people who aren't needed in Earth elite society.
>>14252602
Continuation:
Also; We could use your arguments for a country like North Korea. Obviously we never see them being opressed, only when we do and all Feddie-fags turn a blind eye!
You probably can't name 3-4 colonies which seemed to have decent working conditions, infrastructure and free autonomy. Living under a mixture of communism/dictatorship does equal being opressed, especially when a majority of the population (the 10 billion people in outer space) are being constantly hounded, used and thrown away like wet rags.
Let's take the Industrial 7 incident for example. Mineva herself mentions how this incident will be just swept under the rug, a majority of people in the other colonies unknowing of the events which unfolded there, which basically doomed a whole colony due to Feddie intervention during a proper deal between the Vist foundation and Zeon... I a neutral colony. Mineva also mentions that "Us spacenoids are used to this kind of treatment, it's nothing new." Implying that she's seen the worst of the worst from her birth in 0079-onto that point, having spent time with almost purely spacenoid society.
Essentially, the facts and pieces of info needed are all there. You just have to piece it together and be willing to listen to the spacenoids and their experiences, whilst examining their living conditions and comparing these to Earth.
If you wish to know of the economical situation, I refer to Full Frontal's explanation in Unicorn as well as Char's talks back in CCA.
>>14292513
"Culling the excess population".
So Gihren's hypothetical plan is far worse than the federation' "ACTUAL" culling and exploitation of spacenoids? Oh my, nice meme.
Does Black_Fag even build gunpla?
>>14284649
>>14284649
>>>14283241
>in b4 >genocide,
Ah, you mean like the titans? Or maybe the Federation's dismissal of the colonies whicg most likely ended with mass starvation and overworked individuals who wanted their independence?
>terror bombing,
Ah, you mean like the Titans did? Or maybe you know, their complete disregard for the colonies involved in the Loum conflict. Maybe even that time in Unicorn when Daguza EMP'D the Kshatriya, causing it to crash onto nuclear reactors inside industrial 7 blowing up almost an entire colony? Tsch, no big deal I guess!
>targeting noncombatants,
Oh? How about all the Zeon sympathisers who "disappeared" or "died accidental deaths", line the entirety of Zinnerman's family in Unicorn inside a Feddie concentration camp, along with the entirety of the camp/city? After having pillaged, raped and murdered each woman,
, man and child? Ah, no biggie I guess! Also, the Titans. I mentioned the titans right? Ye, you know when they assassinated an AEUG official and tried to forcibly take Dakar during peace talks in Zeta, wounding and killing lots of civilians whilst blowing up buildings indiscriminately? No biggie!
>i'd expect nothing less from a nazi sympathizer edgelord really.
I'd expect nothing else from a commie sympathizer cucklord really.
![[EG]Mobile_Suit_Gundam_Movie_I_(Triple-Audio)_[13ECA045].mkv_snapshot_00.35.34_[2013.06.16_04.48.05].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/0EdKLj1.jpg "[EG]Mobile Suit Gundam Movie I (Triple-Audio) [13ECA045].mkv snapshot 00.35.34 [2013.06.16 04.48.05]")
>>14294533
>Maybe even that time in Unicorn when Daguza EMP'D the Kshatriya
MAYBE THE KSHATRIYA OPERATED BY A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE TO BEGIN WITH
FUCK I'M MAD
>>14294545
Maybe you forgot the fact that industrial 7 was a neutral territory? Which gives both the Neo-Zeon and the Feddie's equal rights to enter the colony? And that the Feddie's were the ones to instigate the violence in the first place by forcibly entering the colony with armed forces to shut down a lawful exchange? Or maybe you're just dense?
Also, ask most spacenoids and they'd call Neo-Zeon their heroes. Ask any Feddie Earth elite scum and they'd call them a terrorist organisation. Frontal mentions how this is an unjust representation of their organisation, given that the people they fight for don't seem to think in-line with the Feddies. So you know, it's like leaving North Korea and telling the outside world that they're terrorists. Of course the outside world would respond with "But... You're the opressive regime, not any of us."
Maybe /m/ is abit to indoctrinated into Feddie line of thinking?
>>14294499
It's hardly hypothetical when Zeon gassed multiple colonies and wiped out entire sides in the One Week Battle. Also, while the Federation did exploit Spacenoids (and probably Earthnoids too), I don't believe they culled them. The Titans did, but that was several years later, not at any point leading up to or during the One Year War.
>>14294533
There's several hypothetical and assumed moments in that post, like mass starvation and over worked individuals. The Federation definitely did some bad shit, but assuming stuff just because it helps you doesn't make them worse.
>>14294578
/m/ was flooded with reddit and tumblr moral newfags in recent years. It's only natural they'd gravitate towards the Federation.
>>14291795
Are you implying that the Federation shouldn't have bothered trying to destroy the space colony heading to obliterate them?
Sure, it sucks they couldn't and it landed on Australia, BUT ZEON SENT IT TO DROP ON THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE
NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF ZEON WASN'T LED BY INSANE PEOPLE
>>14294595
>>14294595
>>>14294499 (You)
>It's hardly hypothetical when Zeon gassed multiple colonies
Multiple? As far as I know, they gassed "one" colony during Operation British. If there were more than provide source or it didn't happen.
>wiped out entire sides in the One Week Battle.
Eh... together with the Federation, yes. They both did an equal amount of damage to the colonies, from collateral damage to civil uprisings. The rest is just assumptions.
>Also, while the Federation did exploit Spacenoids (and probably Earthnoids too), I don't believe they culled them.
There have been no sightings nor mention of Earthnoids being treated with disrespect by the Earth federation almost ever. And I believe expelling billions of people, using them as a stepping stone for Earth's economy and as a tool to work for the Earth's continued prosperity (As mentioned in Unicorn, which was the case. It was the crux of Frontal's economical wall against the feddies. Did he want to drop a colony or asteroid? Did he want to gas colonies? No, he wanted pure autonomy. And he knew, along with the Vist foundation, that all these Zeon/Neo-Zeon groups have been allowed to exist to act as puppet governments for the feddies out in space. They've been allowed to exist so focus would be shifted elsewhere. They even changed one of the constitutional space laws about Newtype (which essentially means spacenoid) autonomy in government. The EFSF were the ones who constantly fed this nonsense until it got out of hand, leading to the OYW. And anyone whom wanted the truth the get out were deemed so dangerous that they sent the biggest warship ever made, and aimed a freaking Gryps laser.
#NotMoreCorruptThanAnyOtherUnion
Yeah right.
>>14294595
>There's several hypothetical and assumed moments in that post, like mass starvation and over worked individuals.
Except... it isn't. Future instalments build on the years before the OYW, with slight and small additions. Like Zinnerman's talk about the "Light of Zeon which guided the Spacenoids once the EFSF abandoned them." Mass starvation however, was an assumption. However, if not for gruesome reasons, why would the Side's rally up against the federation during the OYW? If they were treated any decently, they wouldn't help Zeon right?
>Inb4 several colonies tried to fight Zeon and they got gassed
Once again, that was "1" colony which was under Federation puppet government control.
>The Federation definitely did some bad shit, but assuming stuff just because it helps you doesn't make them worse.
True. However, whilst you refuted something like... 1 or 2 of my claims, the rest still stand tall. Revolutions don't just happen for no reason.
>>14294596
>>>14294578 (You)
>/m/ was flooded with reddit and tumblr moral newfags in recent years. It's only natural they'd gravitate towards the Federation.
That... seems to be the case, yes. Poorly conceived anti-Zeon memes are present as well.
I mean, it's not like I "entirely" condone Zeon's actions or anything. They did some bad things, mostly on Gihren's behalf. However, all these feddie circle jerkers don't seem to understand how cause and effect works. Several hundred colonies don't rise up against their opressors... for no reason. Had they understood the core concepts of "Unicorn" too for example, they'd have understood that most events with Zeon uprisings (like Stardust Memory) were orchestrated to punch down at spacenoid forces as a tool of fearmongering, meant to break down any spacenoid resistance.
If a rule of government can act so poorly as to conceive a OYW that claims half the world's lives, then that government has most definitely done something wrong.
>>14295159
And... none of this wouldn't have happened if the Feddies didn't instigate the war in the first place.
>>14294331
Oh, so he's just mentally handicapped. That explains everything.
>>14294578
>And that the Feddie's were the ones to instigate the violence
Zeeks shot first. No seriously, that Geara Zulu asshole who flipped out and spewed 'WEIGHTED DOWN BY GRAVITY' bullshit before he got wrecked.
Also how do you have a 'lawful' exchange with an illegal terrorist cell?
>Also, ask most spacenoids and they'd call Neo-Zeon their heroes.
Only those born after the One Year War or survivors with Henken levels of short term memory.
>>14296481
By leaving Zeon alone for 20 years? Some instigation.
Or did Origin retcon the whole timeline with more Zeon apologia?
>>14256241
>Someone has to pay to fucking go to the asteriod belt and bring them back
Yeah
Jupiter
JUPITER DID OPERATION BRITISH AND THE ONE YEAR WAR
>>14294499
>So Gihren's hypothetical plan
>this much denial
Please take note of >>14251282, especially the 'We've reduced the population' part. It's clear that Zeon's tactics at the start of the war of deliberately targeting civilians was part of Gihren's 'cull the ubermensch' plan. Even Black_Nazi admits it.
>>14296738
Shit, I meant 'cull the untersmensch'. Don't know how I fucked that one up.
>>14256241
>>14257188
It takes a LOT less energy to get resources from the asteroids (note that there's many near-Earth asteroids you could snag instead of going all the way to the Belt) than to lift them out of Earth heavy-ass gravity well.
But that would require someone (Tomino) to actually understand how space works (which he doesn't).
>>14296452
I've no idea why you added that last (you) yourself. It's not like it being true would make any difference to your post, even if it was. That said:
> Multiple? As far as I know, they gassed "one" colony during Operation British. If there were more than provide source or it didn't happen.
We see Shiro witness one and Amuro fights in another gassed colony. Gihren's plan was to wipe out multiple Sides, not just Colonies, but Sides using the gas and then drop at least one, maybe more if necessary. Zeon even outfitted Zaku I's with gas firing grenade guns to make the process as efficient as possible. You don't design a gun for that kind of thing if you're only going to be doing it once.
> Eh... together with the Federation, yes. They both did an equal amount of damage to the colonies, from collateral damage to civil uprisings. The rest is just assumptions.
The narrator for 0079 only says that between them they wiped out half of humanity, not that they did a quarter each. Zeon wiped out Sides 1, 2 and 4 in the One Week Battle.
> Also, while the Federation did exploit Spacenoids (and probably Earthnoids too), I don't believe they culled them.
> There have been no sightings nor mention of Earthnoids being treated with disrespect by the Earth federation almost ever. And I believe expelling billions of people, using them as a stepping stone for Earth's economy
Even Unicorn doesn't say that the Federation forced people in to space, only that they went there. And even if they did, those people weren't somehow magically Spacenoids all along. They put Earthnoids in to space, and their descendants became Spacenoids. The rest of your post appears to be conspiracy nonsense about a fictional setting, so it can be ignored I guess.
>>14297378
>>14296458
Zinnerman didn't talk about the Light of Zeon, Marida did.
> However, if not for gruesome reasons, why would the Side's rally up against the federation during the OYW?
The Sides didn't, Side 3 did. Kind of. It was independant with 20 years by that point and it became independent not because of gruesome humanitarian reasons, but because Deikun got people worked up over Contolism. That was always his main point. I think it bears explaining here that no Zabi ever lead a revolution of any kind. Ever. Not in any version of the story. Not the tv show, not the novels, not the Origin. They always took over an already independent state that Deikun lead the movement on and that he did it not because of human explotation or anything, but because he thought Earth was being polluted and Space was better. And he got people on Side 3 to agree. None of the other Sides joined him.
> 1 or 2 of my claims, the rest stand tall
The Loum thing is also an assumption at the very least. Even MS Igloo's take on it is just the word of a very obviously unreliable narrator, who is not only doesn't know about Operation British, but is lied to about the nature of the very plan he's expositing in the very episode he says it in and spends the whole series (and it's sequel) being lied to, deceived or wasting time on various Zeon boondongles. Oliver believes that Loum is to be the testing ground for that big cannon and instead it was always to be a testing ground for mobile suits, with no-one even giving the gun real data. If they'd lie to him about something that big, why would they not lie about other strategic elements? Especially when we know Gihren always planned to cull the population and got people to do so on his behalf before with Operation British. It's entirely reasonable that Zeon attacked and destroyed Loum once the Federation was routed, regardless of their route.
>>14294533
>say in my post that no one is denying the bad things feddies did
>post about the bad things feddies did as if I ignored them
I mean, I guess none of those are from the OYW and the titans were really an attempted military coup but you aren't wrong that those were pretty bad things that tend to show federation corruption and incompetence that shouldn't just be swept under the rug.
And yet they are still not worse than the things zeon did in the span of a week.
>>14297378
Unicorn make a point of showing that old dude talking to Audrey about how tons of people went up to space willingly, it's just their retarded descendants for the most part playing the MUH FORCED EMIGRATION card.
Unicorn does a lot of stupid shit, but that scene was well done. I'm assuming it was new for the OVA, since I don't see an Imperial Japan apologist and historical revisionism fan like Fukui putting a line in like that that mocks Zeon's ever-shrinking excuses the same way most sane people mock his own insanity.
>>14294499
>>14296452
>And I believe expelling billions of people, using them as a stepping stone for Earth's economy
You know, Zeon apologists love to whine about 'Evil Feddies expelling people from Earth', but the fact of the matter is that the Federation literally has no choice in this matter. UC Earth is in a steady state of environmental collapse. This is what the Origin has to say about the current state of the Earth:
>It began with the exhaustion of underground resources that had been squandered for many years, leading to an energy shortage. Large-scale emission of greenhouse gases wreaked destruction on the planet's environment and accelerated its desertification. The lack of water resources and agricultural land fundamentally disrupted the balance of food supply and demand, and local quarrels escalated into bloody conflicts. Desperate for sustenance, people were unwillingly forced to become nomads and refugees.
And this isn't something only introduced in Origin, either but hinted at in most other UC series; the mention of artificial trees in ZZ or the fact that the Axis drop is considered enough to push Earth's environment over the edge into full collapse.
So faced with the fact that large portions of the Earth will soon become uninhabitable desert, the Federation is left with few options:
a. Do nothing. Build up some domed or underground cities for the elites then let the rest of the unwashed masses starve and die off.
b. Do what the Federation did and build nice comfortable space colonies to house the population.
c. Cull the'weak' and 'unworthy' parts of the population to reduce it to a level that won't put a strain on the environment, also known as Gihren's Solution.
So the Federation actually made the most humane and beneficial solution, all things considered. But I guess 'Evil Feddies forced us into space so me and my family won't starve!' doesn't sound quite as good as a Space Nazi recruiting slogan.
>>14298697
>'Evil Feddies forced us into space so me and my family won't starve!'
Good ol' first world problems. Space world problems? First Side problems? whatever
>>14296700
>>>14294578 (You)
>Zeeks shot first. No seriously, that Geara Zulu asshole
Well, once again the Feddies instigated that encounter. They proceeded with an armed infiltration of a neutral colony where a lawful exchange between two different groups was being made. The Feddies had no right to barge into neutral territory, attempt to steal something which wasn't their property (The Unicorn) and then had the gull to fire inside a colony, EMP'ing the Kshatriya and blowing up almost an entire colony. To steal something from two groups which lawfully exists. (Zeon was not to he undone until the year 100 UC, so Neo-Zeon were not terrorists no matter what Riddhe or the Nahel Argama captain said, they had all the rights to make a trade with a neutral organisation in a neutral colony that they ever could.)
>Also how do you have a 'lawful' exchange with an illegal terrorist cell?
Once again, Neo-Zeon, a part of Zeon, was allowed to exist by the federation to help bolster the image that protesters of the federation were useless. Mineva briefly mentions how their existence is allowed by the Feddie's during the second half of Unicorn.
>>Also, ask most spacenoids and they'd call Neo-Zeon their heroes.
>Only those born after the One Year War or survivors with Henken levels of short term memory.
Obviously this isn't the case, as Zeon's cause was already regarded as something worth sacrificing ones life for before the OYW, and during the war.
>>14296705
>>>14296481 (You)
>By leaving Zeon alone for 20 years? Some instigation.
What are you even on about?
>Or did Origin retcon the whole timeline with more Zeon apologia?
No, it explained several more aspects of what led to the OYW in the first place. It doesn't retcon anything besides Guntanks being a thing before the OYW, but in small scale and with less advanced weaponry. Or you know, you Could submit a source of retcons involving the plot, instead of assuming retcons where there are none?
>>14298757
>>14298768
>manually typing (you)
Why do you faggots keep doing this?
>>14296738
>>>14294499 (You)
>>So Gihren's hypothetical plan
>>this much denial
>Please take note of >>14251282, especially the 'We've reduced the population' part. It's clear that Zeon's tactics at the start of the war of deliberately targeting civilians was part of Gihren's 'cull the ubermensch' plan. Even Black_Nazi admits it.
I... never denied it. I called it a hypothetical plan because Degwin disapproved of it and tried to warn the federation, as well as the fact that the plan was never fully implemented. The plan was there yes, but it's implementation was purely hypothetical because it was never implemented. Don't get me wrong, I don't deny that Gihren wanted to, and tried to implement the sort of mass-annihilation of humans to limit it's population. I was just referring to the plan as hypothetical in the sense that it was never implemented nor approved of.
>>14298775
The second (you)s are his own posts he's linking back to, because Instigate-kun is apparently either too retarded to realize those posts were already chained back to, or is so narcissistic that he needs to throw his drivel in our face every chance he gets.
Given the quality of his posts I'm leaning more towards retardation.
>>14297378
>We see Shiro witness one and Amuro fights in another gassed colony. Gihren's plan was to wipe out multiple Sides,
Finally some valid points, I applaud you! This is very much true, the total count only adds up to 3 though (even if 3 are too many, this still most likely puts Zeon at the same terror scale as the titans.)
Also, as I posted above Gihren's plans were never fully implemented, since Degwin disapproved of them and tried to stop his madness by negotiating a peace with general Revil.
>The narrator for 0079 only says that between them they wiped out half of humanity, not that they did a quarter each. Zeon wiped out Sides 1, 2 and 4 in the One Week Battle.
I don't believe it's explicitly stated that they wiped out 3 entire sides, so until sauce is provided ill treat this with a grain of salt. But your post doesn't prove that zeon did neither less nor more than a quarter of the killings.
>Even Unicorn doesn't say that the Federation forced people in to space, only that they went there. And even if they did, those people weren't somehow magically Spacenoids all along. They put Earthnoids in to space, and their descendants became Spacenoids. The rest of your post appears to be conspiracy nonsense about a fictional setting, so it can be ignored I guess.
Except... Frontal himself explains this in Unicorn. That the unwanted Earthnoids were cast out to space, with their only purpose being to uphold the economical machine of the Earth Federation. Daguza mentions how the Federation is this godlike entity which is harsh and unjust, but does it to maintain its own system. Zinnerman mentions in episode 4 how life was tough in the colonies, that they created a new system which they wanted to follow instead of the federation called the light of Zeon. Two systems from different places can't coexist though, so as expected fighting was had. Marida also gives her speech about the light of Zeon, where she tries to make Banagher see things from their perspective.
>>14297380
>>>14297378
>Zinnerman didn't talk about the Light of Zeon, Marida did.
Go rewatch episode 4, the desert scene. He does talk about the light of Zeon.
>The Sides didn't, Side 3 did. Kind of. It was independant with 20 years by that point and it became independent not because of gruesome humanitarian reasons, but because Deikun got people worked up over Contolism.
Except it didn't become truly autonomous until the year 0074, when a federation ship disregarded traffic laws, blew up an entire agricultural sector and Zeon announced that they would become truly independent. Which resulted with feddies indiscriminately killing protesters with live rounds and tanks.
>None of the other Sides joined him.
Citation needed.
>The Loum thing is also an assumption at the very least. Even MS Igloo's take on it is just the word of a very obviously unreliable narrator, who is not only doesn't know about Operation British, but is lied to about the nature of it all
It is an assumption, but full scale wars usually aren't one sided with one side standing by idly getting demolished. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the Loum arc of the Origin plays out to see the full picture.
>>14297419
>>say in my post that no one is denying the bad things feddies did
>>post about the bad things feddies did as if I ignored them
>I mean, I guess none of those are from the OYW and the titans were really an attempted military coup but you aren't wrong that those were pretty bad things that tend to show federation corruption and incompetence that shouldn't just be swept under the rug.
>And yet they are still not worse than the things zeon did in the span of a week.
Re-read the rest of my points, the feddies were not any better than Zeon. They were better than the Zabi family, and Gihren most definitely. But their actions before, during and after the OYW, (Like the rise of the titans, August new type labs, culling colonies like Shanghai and their compete use of Neo-Zeon organisations as propaganda tools etc...) which could have ended with peace after the one-week battle, is still on-par with what Zeon did during a week. Denying that 150 years of corruption and discrimination is worse than a week of battle is petty at best. Had Frontal's plan been implemented, the coin of fate would have turned, giving the federation a piece of their own "not too bad" ruling. But by spacenoids. Dooming Earthnoidian economy and Earth's citizens.
>>14298691
>>>14297378
>Unicorn make a point of showing that old dude talking to Audrey about how tons of people went up to space willingly, it's just their retarded descendants for the most part playing the MUH FORCED EMIGRATION card.
Of course people would go to space if the federation promised it would be their promised land. Public unrest and poor conditions in the colonies under strict military democracy(dictatorship) by the federation was what helped create all the spacenoids movements which have ever risen up. It was a project several years in the making by the EFSF, which ended up ultimately, largely a failure.
>Unicorn does a lot of stupid shit, but that scene was well done. I'm assuming it was new for the OVA, since I don't see an Imperial Japan apologist and historical revisionism fan like Fukui putting a line in like that that mocks Zeon's ever-shrinking excuses the same way most sane people mock his own insanity.
XDD let's blame the author XDD
>>14298697
>>>14294499
>>>14296452
>You know, Zeon apologists love to whine about 'Evil Feddies expelling people from Earth', but the fact of the matter is that the Federation literally has no choice in this matter. UC Earth is in a steady state of environmental collapse. This is what the Origin has to say about the current state of the Earth:
>>It began with the exhaustion of underground resources that had been squandered for many years, leading to an energy shortage. Large-scale emission of greenhouse gases wreaked destruction on the planet's environment and accelerated its desertification. The lack of water resources and agricultural land fundamentally disrupted the balance of food supply and demand, and local quarrels escalated into bloody conflicts. Desperate for sustenance, people were unwillingly forced to become nomads and refugees.
>And this isn't something only introduced in Origin, either but hinted at in most other UC series; the mention of artificial trees in ZZ or the fact that the Axis drop is considered enough to push Earth's environment over the edge into full collapse.
>So faced with the fact that large portions of the Earth will soon become uninhabitable desert, the Federation is left with few options:
>a. Do nothing. Build up some domed or underground cities for the elites then let the rest of the unwashed masses starve and die off.
>b. Do what the Federation did and build nice comfortable space colonies to house the population.
>c. Cull the'weak' and 'unworthy' parts of the population to reduce it to a level that won't put a strain on the environment, also known as Gihren's Solution.
Valid points. However, there is a 4th and final solution. Admit ones own mistakes in failing to maintain a stable Earth, allow the colonies to become autonomous, emergency evacuate the Earth and it's people to more sides, and start rebuilding the planet's ecosystem. Or you know, move to Jupiter.
>>14298768
>What are you even on about?
Since you're too braindead to look up your own sources, here http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php
Unlike your retarded ass, mark sources his shit so fuck off.
From the time Zeon declares independence to the time they go full genocide, the only actions taken by the Feds are A. 'economic pressure' (aka they stop shipping and trading to/with them. they want independence? they fucking get it) and B. building up their armed forces IN RESPONSE TO Zeon doing the same. They don't even establish their space forces until Side 3 starts arming itself.
And no, 'they have a military!' is NOT fucking instigating ANY kind of war or terrorist action.
>b-but UC's colony was neutral!
Citation needed. Unless they are hanging out in the Zeon Republic (which no one ever says) that colony is part of the Federation. Vist is not his own fucking country.
>b-but the Feds 'allow' Neo-Zeon to exist!
Just because the Feds haven't cleaned out all the rebels does not mean their continued existence is carte blanche to sell them shit. Most civilized countries I know of tend to make 'aiding and abetting' known fugitives or terror groups highly illegal.
>B-but Frontal et al
Irrelevant, since you're not even addressing the actual point (outside of the assertions of a figure who is not only a copy of someone who didn't live through the events stated, but is blatantly using his words and position for a political end.
>poor condition in the colonies
Citation needed. Outside of Shangri-la being a shithole and Unicorn's own Palau (which has a fucking Zeon palace in it; odd that the post-OYW zeon hangout is the one that is wasting all its money on its upper class and not helping its poor), most of the colonies we see (aside from the ones Zeon destroyed, of course) are just as good (again, fucking SPACE PALACES) if not better than similar locations on earth (the slummiest areas of the colonies shown are still better than equivalent shitholes earthside).
>>14298775
Sorry, in using an experimental app the "you" is added automatically. I'll make sure to delete the field which has "you" whenever I see it. Thank you for pointing it out.
>>14298863
>XDD
Kill yourself.
>>14298808
> Also, as I posted above Gihren's plans were never fully implemented, since Degwin disapproved of them and tried to stop his madness by negotiating a peace with general Revil.
Degwin didn't try to stop Gihren until nearly the end of UC 0079. Gihren wasn't exactly off the leash before that point, but Degwin wasn't being nearly as peaceful either. And again, you don't build Zaku I's with gas grenade firing guns if you're only going to use it on 3 colonies. Neither Shiro's experience, nor the colony in 0079 are implied to be unique either.
> so until sauce is provided I'll treat this with a grain of salt
Entertianment Bible 39, which says that on commencing the 3 second warning, Zeon launched indiscriminate attacks on Sides, 1, 2 and 4. Entertainment Bible 1 also clarifies that Zeon used G3 Gas and nuclear weapons on all three Sides.
> unwanted Earthnoids were cast out in to space
And Unicorn also has the cafe owner say the people moved there willingly. If they did forcibly move any out, then it'd be unfair treatment of Earthnoids though.
> Zinnerman talks about the Light of Zeon too
My mistake then.
>>14298825
> it didn't become truly autonomous until the year 0074
The Republic of Zeon was found in UC 0058, the Principality declared by Degwin on UC 0069. The Republic was still independent until that point though.
> None of the other Sides joined him
> Citation needed
The fact that Sides 1, 2 and 4 were wiped out in the One Week Battle, Loum was Side 5, Side 6 remained neutral and Side 7 consisted of one colony that housed Project V isn't enough?
Why don't you find me a citation of one of the Sides joining Zeon?
> full scale wars usually aren't one side standing by getting idly demolished
I never said this one was, only that Zeon had the early advantage offensively in the war and that in that particular battle they pressed it hard, routing the Federation so there's no reason they couldn't have wiped out the Side too if they'd wanted.
>>14298900
>>>14298768
>http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php
This timeline is intriguing. However, the only source stated for Zeon becoming independent in UC 40's is a gunpla manual. Something which the timeline contradicts right here: "U.C. 0067:
The Federation government rejects a motion for colonial autonomy."
>the only actions taken by the Feds are A. 'economic pressure' and building up their armed forces IN RESPONSE TO Zeon
>And no, 'they have a military' is not instigating-...
You're amusing. Unwilling to understand the rest of my texts your Feddie wank is strongly present. This timeline isn't even representating the information brought forward in the Origin, in other words it's dated and doesn't cite facts that are more relevant today.
>>UC's colony was neutral
>Unless they are hanging out in the Zeon Republic (which no one ever says) that colony is part of the Federation.
Reverse argument, if it isn't a Feddie hive than it is part of the Zeon Republic XDD. It's not explicitly stated that it's a part of any faction, no federation officials nor suits are seen originating from the colony, only seen sneaking into the colony through the back-door.
>>Frontal
>Irrelevant, since you're not even addressing the actual point (outside of the assertions of a figure who is not only a copy of someone who didn't live through the events stated, but is blatantly using his words and position for a political end.
Char did live through many years before the OYW, your Mark-source states it himself. Also, Frontal physically presents to us how Newtypes can both see the past and the future when psycho-fields resonate, which effectively gives Frontal more credence. Also, info is not only gathered irl, history is something most people know at least a spec of.
>>b-but the Feds 'allow' Neo-Zeon to exist!
>Just because the Feds haven't cleaned out all the rebels does not mean their continued existence is carte blanche to sell them shit.
They're used as propaganda tools to scare off rebels. Mentioned in the Origin and Unicorn.
>>poor condition in the colonies
>Citation needed. Outside of Shangri-la being a shithole and Unicorn's own Palau (which has a fucking Zeon palace in it; odd that the post-OYW zeon hangout is the one that is wasting all its money on its upper class and not helping its poor), most of the colonies we see (aside from the ones Zeon destroyed, of course) are just as good (again, fucking SPACE PALACES) if not better than similar locations on earth (the slummiest areas of the colonies shown are still better than equivalent shitholes earthside).
Shanghai is still relevant though you dimwit. And that palace was not built with spacenoid money, it was a replica of Ao Baua Qu's throne room created by Zeon loyalists and given to Frontal as a reward for his survives by Palau's minister.
>>14298908
>>>14298863
>>XDD
>Kill yourself.
Only with you anon <3
>>14298985
Why would it cite information in The Origin, which is explicitly a retelling of and alternate version of 0079?
>>14298975
>>>14298808
>Degwin didn't try to stop Gihren until nearly the end of UC 0079. Gihren wasn't exactly off the leash before that point, but Degwin wasn't being nearly as peaceful either. And again, you don't build Zaku I's with gas grenade firing guns if you're only going to use it on 3 colonies.
No official sources ever state nor portray Degwin in a negative light. The most recent characterisation by Yasuhiko in an interview with Degwin's new VA in the Origin, the VA mentions that the authors told him that Degwin was inherently a good person on the inside. And I rescind my colony gassing argument, but the fact still stands that the titans did the same.
>Entertianment Bible 39, which says that on commencing the 3 second warning, Zeon launched indiscriminate attacks on Sides, 1, 2 and 4. Entertainment Bible 1 also clarifies that Zeon used G3 Gas and nuclear weapons on all three Sides.
I see. It was mutual, but not exclusive to those weapons. However I see your point.
>And Unicorn also has the cafe owner say the people moved there willingly. If they did forcibly move any out, then it'd be unfair treatment of Earthnoids though.
I accept these sources. However, the neglect was there, and in the end these people were only used to help bolster the economical machine called the federation (lik Daguza mentions in episode 3)
>> it didn't become truly autonomous until the year 0074
>The Republic of Zeon was found in UC 0058, the Principality declared by Degwin on UC 0069. The Republic was still independent until that point though.
Not according to the Origin, nor that Gundam guy Mark's sources. The federation rescinded the autonomy claim in 0069, making Zeon unlawfully independent. In the Origin, true autonomy began after 0074's Dawn Revolution.
>The fact that Sides 1, 2 and 4 were wiped out in the One Week Battle, Loum was Side 5, Side 6 remained neutral and Side 7 consisted of one colony that housed Project V isn't enough?
I rescind the argument, however this doesn't exclude the potential that the sides were led by the confirmed puppet governments created by the Feddie's, dooming them with futile resistance instead of allowing Zeon to enter the Side's colonies. Don't you agree?
>I never said this one was, only that Zeon had the early advantage offensively in the war
Agreed.
>>14299008
>>>14298985 (You)
>Why would it cite information in The Origin, which is explicitly a retelling of and alternate version of 0079?
Well, because Sunrise's official stance is that all animated works are canon, even if they are different from the works that they are based on and thus came first. And since it doesn't retcon anything besides guntank's early implementation I believe that the additions it includes to the expansive lore of the Universal Century is essential to seeing the full picture of what occurred during that accursed war of 0079.
Reminder: Unicorn is the only animated material to say there was forced relocation, and even then there is no proof and we have characters that say it wasn't the case. We also only get that forced relocation bit from the Zeon side which makes it suspect.
>>14299056
How much consideration do you think the writers at Sunrise put into that stuff?
Sometimes I feel like they put ten minutes thought into it, while we spend hours debating it. Like if you were to ask them about it they'd shrug and go "I dunno"
>>14299035
> Degwin is a good person inside
He also oversaw a war that cost billions of lives. He might have had good intentions, but he allowed himself to go along with bad ideas to see those intentions followed. Gihren was almost certainly the serpent doing the convincing, but he still oversaw it and in reality a lot of the Federation heads are probably good people on the inside and just making bad calls for good reason too.
> the neglect was there
Oh I agree, but I think that neglect was preferable to many alternatives and an inevitable fact of government. Even if Zeon had come off with best intentions and the Federation hadn't embargoed them I don't think Zeon would have treated people any different. The average person would still have been a cog in their machine instead of the Federations.
> Not according to The Origin
Again, I fail to see what impact that should have given it's nature as a retelling. I'm also not seeing anything on Ultimatemark's site regarding the Federation rescinding the autonomy claim in UC 0069.
Which doesn't even make sense to me, since the Federation had a trade embargo with them up to 0079, and you can't embargo anything but a nation. They had to recognize it as a nation to embargo them.
>>14299039
> this doesn't exclude the potential that the Sides were lead by the confirmed puppet governments created by the Feddie's
I would agree it's possible, but I don't think it's particularly plausible, since each side had decades to join Zeon and failed to do so, with only one other side even having any kind of revoultion: Riah. A Side that failed to join or side with Zeon in the OYW despite Zeon helping them gain independence.
>>14299048
> it doesn't retcon anything besides the thing it retcons
Multiple things can be canon (or official) at once. Them clashing doesn't really matter, since you can easily just view them as alternate stories/versions of the same event.
>>14298985
>Something which the timeline contradicts right here: "U.C. 0067: The Federation government rejects a motion for colonial autonomy."
That doesn't contradict jack shit, since (at least before Zeon MURDERS THEM ALL) there were more colonies than Side 3.
>>14299203
Yea, the Federation was presumably declining the autonomy of all the Sides but Zeon. As a separate nation the Federation would have no ability to decline Zeon's autonomy. It'd be like Britain deciding the US is no longer a country a decade after it declared independence and got it through various means.
>>14298999
>They're used as propaganda tools to scare off rebels. Mentioned in the Origin and Unicorn.
'We fucking murdered them all' is something that scares off potential terrorists. 'Eh, we'll let you live if we feel like it' doesn't deter a goddamn thing.
Also, this is the terrorists' opinions themselves, not stated Fed policy.
>Shanghai
Literally who. Unless your feeble mongoloid brain misspelled Shangri-La, which is still better off than Earth's worst shitholes.
>not built with spacenoid money
>but built by spacenoid terorrists
So either you're lying or they stole it all (and again, didn't give to the poor). For the faction supposedly concerned over Spacenoid quality of life they sure don't do much to improve it.
Unless, of course, you're like Black_Nazi and consider murdering billions of your fellow Spacenoids 'improving'.
Hell, you ARE Black_Nazi, aren't you? Turn your trip back on so we can filter you properly faggot.
>>14299088
Awesome. then Unicorn is (as proper) an alternate Zeonwank fanfiction which doesn't count.
>>14299056
Unicorn is also the only material, animated or not, that claims there was a raping and pillaging of a Zeon town after the war, despite the Federation never occupying Side 3.
>>14299240
> doesn't retcon or clash with anything
> cool, it must be an alternate telling cause I don't like it
I think you misunderstood.
>>14299249
Was that definitely in Side 3? They did hold Earth territory after all.
>>14299250
>doesn't retcon or clash with anything
>except all the times it did
>>14299257
Name one.
>>14299255
After they were driven from the surface?
At best you had some towns that had rebels and terrorists (Zeon or otherwise) IN them, but no 'Zeon' towns. This ain't SEED, there's no Carpentaria or other territory they hold anymore.
Even if they did, I except the odds of them being raped and pillaged by a modern military to be roughly 0%. Then again, this is the 'stated' facts of radical terrorists, made to fit their goals. They probably just had their asses kicked out or imprisoned by the feds, possibly with one or two isolated incidents of rape and violence which would then be prosecuted as any modern government would.
This ain't the medieval era, we don't give our armies license to do that shit anymore.
>>14299265
The mentioned post-war town incident, the ALSO mentioned nonexistent forced immigration, having a Puru clone being able to get pregnant in the first place, and pretty much everything involved with the Vists and Laplace, just off the top of my head.
But go ahead, feel free to pretend that none of them count to you.
>>14299291
None of which is a return since there's nothing declaring those didn't or couldn't happen in the original. There's no reason clones couldn't get pregnant, the original says nothing about the nature of the emigration (and Unicorn leaves it ambiguous regardless given who gives the accounts and conflicting statements) and the Vists and Marcenas' are just an example of the Federation corruption and elitism that's regularly mentioned. The box doesn't even retcon or conflict with anything in the shows and wouldn't prevent any events in the timeline for reasons expressed regularly. The only one that might clash is the rape incident with Zinnerman's wife and I dint know enough about it to pass judgement offhand.
Of course, I doubt any of that will count to you.
>>14299277
In the context of the novel (the anime is a bit more vague), the Zeon town the Feds rape and pillage is Side 3 colony given over to the Feds by the Republic of Zeon to allow them to 'let loose some steam'.
I agree that it's stupid, but it was written by Fukui, remember. I suppose someone with an 'Imperial Japan did nothing wrong' mindset would probably assume all armies behave as barbarically as the IJA by default.
>>14299314
>'Some retcons do not contradict previously established facts but instead fill in missing background details, usually to support current plot points.'
Stop assuming all retcons magically have to contradict something, retard. All they have to do is add shit in the background that changes how you see things, like the Box (making the old charter writers either psychic or stupid) and the Conspiracy around it (which turns all involved into major assholes or Jewspiracists for no reason).
Also as >>14299349 points out, the novels shat that up quite nicely on the rape spree alone, and I was pretty sure the old clones were supposed to be either genderless or sterile or something weird, but that may be something I'm misremembering.
>>14299227
>Everyone who doesn't think Zeon is pure evil is a Nazi or Black Knight.
This is what the Federation supporters on /m/ have been reduced to/
>>14292461
>>14292476
>>14292513
>>14292851
>>14292868
>>14295159
So what if Degwin compared Gihren to Hitler? If you follow the conversation, Gihren was being extremely flippant to Degwin in just going along with what he said to say 'on yeah?' because he didn't care. The problem is that the Federation did interfere with the colony drop which contributed to the deflection Zeon was focused on ending the war with the swift destruction of the enemy GHQ. Federation wasn't going to allow that, so while it was intentional, Sydney was collateral damage because of the Federation. And before you try to bring up the 'chicken or the egg' debate regarding Zeon dropping the colony, none of it would have happened with the Federation didn't oppose Side 3's independence and do everything outside of outright military action against the Side to stymie them. As for their goals, Hitler was much more focused on eliminating undesirables and having Germany being at the top of the world. Girhen's plan was to bring lasting stability to the Earth Sphere. You can't even compare tactics since the in terms of mass deaths. The Nazi's set up death camps for the people they considered undesirables, while a majority of the deaths attributed to Zeon were a result of direct military action. They also had 20 years to voice their grievances and join together? While Vietnam was a blunder, you're a damn fool if you don't think the Civil War and War of 1812 needed to be fought. Or you could possibly be a fence sitter for the former. Let alone not take action if you were living in the land of who you considered the enemy. If you say you support Zeon, and use the term 'zeek' to describe yourself, you aren't a true Zeon.
>>14302498
Degwin considered the comparison valid so it doesn't matter whether Gihren accepts it or not. It additionally means the show wants you to consider it.
As for Operation British. One could say that it wouldn't have happened at all if Gihren didn't think the only important thing was culling the population and disguising it as a quick victory, or if Deikun hadn't considered Contolism something vital. Those arguments are ultimately unimportant though, as it isn't a chicken and egg thing though that brings it up, it's that you consistently dismiss any Zeon involvement or blame. Both sides caused it to happen. Not just the Federation, which you always put the blame on while down playing Zeons. If anything, you're the one playing chicken and egg because even in that very post you added that it was ultimately the Federation's fault.
