How would things have changed had he just followed orders and collected data on the V Project prototypes? Could Zeon have won the One Year war had Amuro remained on Side 7?
Yes and no. Zeon could've also won the war if they focused more on improving frontline mobile suits instead of wasting money on stupid expiremental mobile armors (Big Zam, Zakrello, etc.)
>>14125855
I would not call the Big Zam a full on waste of money and resources. Despite it's unfortunate destruction at Solomon, it was one of the most devastating space type units ever developed with the combination of its I-field technology and firepower. It also annihilated a massive chunk of the Tienenem fleet all by itself, somthing a platoon of mobile suits were unable to.
Zakrello was junk, but i assume its data led to the creation of the Bygro series, which did play somewhat of an important role in the final days of the war.
>>14125835
they would have lost even harder
>>14125868
>Zakrello was junk
a mobile armor like zakrello could only be used as an anti ship weapon
>>14125855
Even with that, it's not clear that Zeon was ever capable of winning the war after the Antarctic Treaty. Having the Unified Maintenance Plan in place from the beginning might have helped, but the fact that they built an entirely new mobile suit for every circumstance instead of a single flexible platform absolutely crippled their ability to stand up to the Federation's superior manufacturing strategy. That the Dom might be more agile than the GM on land is useless when economy of scale means they can crank out three GMs for each of your Doms, and then when they're done those GMs can spend a week in the shop to waterproof them and go reinforce the ones fighting your Acguys.
Zeon also had the option of recruiting the other Sides through diplomacy, which would have dramatically increased their manufacturing capability to the point where maybe they would have had a better chance at matching the Federation, but after their first act in the war was to gas a bunch of their fellow Spacenoids there was no way anyone with a scrap of sense to them was going to team up with Side 3.
>>14126524
>Zeon also had the option of recruiting the other Sides through diplomacy
the other sides were under federation controled
>>14125835
Zeonic is done the moment they lose Odessa. That said observing project v would have made GMs lessential awesome as the computer wouldn't have all the data from ALL of zeon's aces.
>>14125855
Mass produced zam or a SUCESSFULL colony drop is more or less the only way to crack jaburo. That base is bullshit
>>14126533
Side 6 was able to peacefully leave the Federation and stay on good diplomatic terms with them. Side 3 could have done the same if they weren't such assholes about it, or if they insisted on being assholes, could have gotten the other Sides except Side 1 to gradually secede and form an alliance with Zeon. This assumes that the Zabis are much more patient and willing to play the long game. It's not like being Federation controlled stopped Side 2 from forming Zanscare.
>>14125855
>improving frontline mobile suits
they did , zeon just didn't have the man power and resources to beat the feds
>>14126546
They did eventually. The UMP and Gelgoog were too little too late: Zeon had already lost most of its veteran pilots by the time it realized its mobile suits needed to use the same parts as each other, and even after that they all had different shells: and this was back when monocoque was the standard, remember, so a different shell meant much more than it did once movable frames were the norm. One huge advantage of the GM was that you could probably convert one type of GM into another in a few hours if your engineering team had practice doing it. That means your Sniper II's lost an arm and needs repairs, just grab one from a Sloop that's not going to see use in the next battle and slap it on there. You can't do that with a Zaku and a Dom with anywhere near the same ease.
Even at their peak Zeon's manufacturing capabilities and manpower were at a disadvantage, but they made things so much worse for themselves by following such poor design practices.
>>14126593
Doms , Goufs and Zeons amphibious suits were superior to GMs
>>14126546
>falling for the manpower meme
side 3 had a population of 1.5 billion, about the same as the earth federation. it was energy independent from the jupiter fleet, had access to resources from the moon, the asteroid belt, and the earth for a period of time.
zeon lost the war because incompetent leadership, and because they were late to the newtype party.
>>14126608
>1.5billion
>about the same as the earth federation
That can't be right.
>>14126607
See >>14126524: yes, they were 1v1 superior, but that doesn't matter if it's more expensive to make and maintain a Dom than to do the same for a GM. More expensive, higher-performance machines can only beat more numerous cheaper ones if the maintenance costs for the two are similar; economy of scale made the GM's cost-benefit ratio superior to the Dom's even though the Dom was a better machine.
>>14126615
Some prewar population totals put the earth's population at 2 billion, while 9 billion are living in space divided between the various sides
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php?year=0040
>40% of the human population (roughly 5 billion people) has emigrated to space.
>* A later entry in the official timeline claims that 9 billion people, out of a total population of 11 billion, have emigrated to space by U.C. 0050. However, this is contradicted by the opening narration of the Gundam II and Gundam III movies, which state that half of humanity now lives in space.
That said, the EFF can and does recruit personnel from the non-federation sides, although most of them were ruined in the first few weeks of fighting. people like Shiro and Christina come from the colonies and haven't set foot on earth prior to the war.
I'd say the EF would've won, but the final conflict would've been far bloodier.
Zeon's tech level just would've had an extra bump in those last few months that would've gotten Doms and Googs into service weeks ahead of schedule. The GM force would still be completed but there'd be that much more ground to take back.
No White Base would mean a loss of feddie propaganda and better use of Zeon prototypes in actual battles rather than throwing valuable shit and aces at the "Trojan Horse", hoping to sink it.
>>14126545
But the rest of the Sides sided with the Federation even after 20 years of lobbying from Side 3. At that point you have to say they at least tried and with both sides in an arms race, Side 3 was out of time.
>>14125835
Zeon wins
>>14126951
>out of time
except there was zero evidence the the EF was ever going to get agressive on them; they weren't friends and the earth proper cut off trade which was a dick move but there's no reason to believe zeon was actually in bad shape pre-war, as colonies are self sufficient in terms of food and its not like the moon and other sides weren't trading with them.
i can understand why zeon apologists would defend some aspects of zeon, but starting a war of aggression and killing half of all humans in the name of "independence" is insane.also i always thought it was bad writing that in zeta and zz people weren't extremely traumatized and hateful towards neo zeon. imagine if after WWII a few holdout imperial japanese came back to the mainland with a fleet of advanced warships and planes and a lot of soldiers and was like "alright boys time to win!" would anyone follow them?
>>14126957
Where is that fucking image from
>>14126962
Gihren Greed games I believe
>>14126957
10/10 would support.
>>14126537
>Mass produced zam or a SUCESSFULL colony drop is more or less the only way to crack jaburo. That base is bullshit
Apsalus 3 theoretically could have done it, but Zeon shut the program down, so.
>>14126960
the titans might have made the Zeon look tame by comparison.
and UC gundam have been going through a never ending string of history revision ever since the original ended.
>>14126593
>>14126624
Here's the image that lays out the numbers involved at A Bao A Qu. Zeon loses the numbers game on every front, but especially in ships.
>>14127044
the zeon actually looked like they had a bit more mobile suits.
and a good chunk of the Fed's ship were the cargo ship refitted for mobile suit deployment.
I think the graph is missing the balls.
>>14127044
Is that the whole fleet though?
Remember that half of EFF got Solar Rayd
>>14126994
Apsalus 3 could have done it if it hadn't been shot down along the way and if Jaburo was actually as durable as Zeon thought it was. Zeon created all sorts of wunderwaffen, all of which were failures in one form or another except for maybe the Big Zam. It's exceedingly unlikely that the Apsalus was the one that would actually succeed.
Also, consider how much we see is put into the Apsalus project, all the resources and time and effort of Zeon's best and brightest scientists and engineers. Now consider that the same amount of resources and effort are put into every Zeon mobile armor that Amuro blows up in one beam rifle shot. That, more than anything, describes why Zeon lost the war.
>>14127044
Uhm... where are the balls? Dear Jesus, I though Zeon would at least have more Musais. And I never knew there were 2 DOLOS, maybe I wasn't paying attention.
>>14127044
A few things are missing (notably the Balls), but most of the other stuff missing is just the stuff they added in side stories or MSV.
>>14127058
I found the source for the table at the top left so I'll just translate it since I bothered to look.
18 Magellans (14 lost/damaged)
98 Salamis (60 lost/damaged)
4800 RGM78 (over 4000 unrecovered)
900 core boosters
110 Public types (near total loss)
MS carriers are included in the count.
84 Columbus types
Various missile boats and beam gunboats
Doesn't include the MS strapped to the outside of carriers
3 Gwazines (losses unknown)
2 Dolos (losses unknown)
41 Musai (30 lost/damaged)
3600 Doms etc (3000 unrecovered)
830 Gattles (120 unrecovered)
46 Jiccos (near total loss)
Unknown number of old and experimental MAs
Various missile and beam gun emplacements
It... just doesn't mention balls. It also doesn't appear to give any source for its numbers so it could just be bullshit.
>>14127081
Its the numbers from before the colony laser / solar ray.
>>14127083
And remember that the Apsalus was sunk by a single GM Sniper. With a single shot, even. It took a while to come down, but only because the sniper didn't follow up.
>>14127152
Mind you, those are numbers from Entertainment Bible 39. Various sources can contradict each other.
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10985
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12556
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11901
If Char was replaced by someone with approximate skill, experience, and newtype power but they didn't give a fuck about killing the Zabis or trying to beat the Gundam even at the cost of whatever objective/sinking White Base would that make any significant difference?
>>14127207
Not really. Zeon's top ace is responsible for maybe just under 200 kills (tanks/planes/etc), so at most you're replacing Char with a guy who would have at best caused somewhere just under 200 casualties on the Federation's side. I suppose you could say that he might have a chance of turning the tide of certain small battles and potentially affecting some outcomes, but one man can't account for or change certain strategic elements like EFF/Zeon military leadership or the Federation having greater material superiority or Zeon taking too long to produce enough superior grunt MS.
>>14127221
Doesn't Char kill some higher ups in Zeon leadership or am I remembering wrong?
>>14127266
He killed Garma by luring him into a trap and killed Kycillia when Zeon had effectively already lost the war, so it's not like changing their fates would alter anything outside of Gihren's Greed.
>>14127266
He causes Garma's demise by feeding him faulty intelligence, leading him into a fatal encounter with the White Base. Garma's death does lead to some decreased morale for some soldiers, but just as easily some other soldiers might feel angry and fight harder than usual. As for command of the Zeon troops on earth, I can't recall if it destabilized anything, at least I don't recall anything mentioned to that effect. I don't think Garma was mentioned to be anything like a genius commander so it's unlikely that much changed in terms of the tactical/operational/strategic war on Earth. They didn't seem to have any trouble afterward. Maybe Ghiren took the reins.
Other than that Char does kill Kycilia on the last day of the war, but that doesn't change the war's outcome, of course.
>>14127285
>>14127288
Oh, I wasn't sure when Kycilia gets killed. Haven't gotten that far yet. I've been spoiled on all the events thanks to /m/ but not the order of events and context.
>>14125835
>Nothing happens in Side 7
>Amuro's dad doesn't become crazy
>Builds better suits
>Char still tries to bring down the Zabi family risking countless Zeon lives.
>>14127288
We might have gotten a stronger Neo Zeon if Kycillia had lived.
>>14127429
If I recall correctly, the Federation brass at Jaburo were becoming discontent with the time it was taking to get the V project units into full development, so i doubt they would have let Tem Ray continue to helm development projects after the initial prototypes were completed.
>>14127221
>>14127207
You're really not doing Breniff Oguz justice since his temperament and Char's are lightyears apart. I mean you cite his kill count, but failed to note that he regularly conceded kill credits to his wingmen so we don't know just how high his count really was. He's also know for his extreme accuracy as well. Plus he was the instructor of the Chimera Corp, which meant he was one of leaders of it. The man was not a slouch.
>>14125835
A couple of big things change Amuro doesn't get the Gundam, which leads to...
>Char can't get Garma killed (at least not then).
>The Trojan Horse doesn't eat up Zeon's resources and aces
>Newtype research for the Federation lags farther behind,
>No learning computer data for the GMs so they are less potent in combat,
On the other hand
>Tem Ray might still be in R&D
>We don't know who the pilots selected would have been better
>>14126524
The reason you see this complaint about 'every mobile suit is completely different' is because like the Federation where design and production came from one group. Zeon contacted several companies to produce weaponry for them (Zeonic, ZImmad, MiP) So outside of the usual their parts wouldn't work with each others, you can reasonably assume that outside of weaponry, this was intentional as a means of not helping the competition.
>>14127157
That's because it was distracted, also it didn't sink it, it only damaged it. In the simulation for how the Apsalus would function, it would fire it's weapon in the high atmosphere where it would be well outside the range of enemy units.
>>14126960
Zero evidence, except the 20 years of military build up and the multiple saber rattling events of Navel Reviews? The last one being held right before the outbreak of the war? Feddie apologists seem to forget that part. As was said before, they were out of time since it was only a matter of time before the Federation themselves launched a preemptive strike against Side 3 which would be devastating.
>>14127649
>feddie apologist
the federation is so clearly incompetent i don't know how you can think they would ever formulate a plan like "attack zeon first." the military buildups are concerning, yes, but again the federation was outclassed technologically (they didn't even start their mobile suit project until MONTHS into the war), and if zeon really wanted independence they had every opportunity to pursue diplomacy with the EF, try to normalize reltations, or just keep building up their military and build more colonies.
even if you think that saber rattling naval reviews are justification for aggression, that aggression should have been on military targets, not gassing half the human population in space.
inb4 >but gassing billions of civilians was necessary because muh federation war power and they had a military base with a few hundred soldiers among those civvies!
i bet you think the USA needed to nuke hiroshima and nagasaki for military reasons too.
>>14127638
the logical thing to do would be to get the GM production rolling and then let Tem Ray develop the next generation of mobile suit.
Hey Chief... Wanna play a game?
>>14125835
nooo, don't worry it doesn't look armed...
>>14128057We didn't need to nuke them but it was the right thing to do, in a twisted sense. The other option is to get invaded by the Commies, which would have been the worst possible decision ever. If they didn't like getting nuked they could have always surrendered sooner. You know, like when we were firebombing their cities into ash. Sage for off topic.
>>14130761actually, the japanese would have surrendered before either atomic bomb if we'd promised them we wouldn't execute or otherwise harm the emperor. there's a very thick book i had to read for my masters called, aptly, "the decision to drop the atomic bomb" which is basically a compilation of every decision maker's input on what to do. another choice that was not pursued was to drop the bomb in some harbor where it would minimally impact the civilian population but demonstrate that we meant business.
i don't think that dropping an atomic bomb on a city can ever be the "right" choice, but if the justifications were better i could accept it. its impossible to know even in hindsight what not dropping the bombs would have meant, but i don't for a minute believe that they really and truly accelerated the end of the war.
i also think the firebombings were horrifying but much more justifiable; still not the morally "right" choice but hey, WWII was hell
>>14127436
Neo Zeon as we know it wouldnl't have existed if Kycillia lived. She was going to retreat and regroup Zeon's forces until she ate a rocket to the face.
>>14130732
John could have won the war if it wasn't for this jobber.
>>14130796I know, but it's called unconditional for a reason and keeping the god-emperor of an invasive and near-barbaric dynasty alive wasn't a good idea to some if he decided to rally people to fight. Obviously this was not the case and we couldn't be sure at the time.
The bombs were more for Russia than anyone else. I do believe it impacted the decision for the Japanese surrender although I don't think it made them surrender sooner, it only showed them the writing on the wall clearer.
I think the firebombings were just as bad as the bomb. Or rather, the bomb was only as bad as the firebombings, depending on you you look at it. But what can you do when you have pic related in charge?
![[EG]Mobile_Suit_Gundam_01_BD(720p_10bit)[2D07D451].mkv_snapshot_10.03_[2016.04.18_07.37.27].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/GbhHBCu.jpg "[EG]Mobile_Suit_Gundam_01_BD(720p_10bit)[2D07D451].mkv_snapshot_10.03_[2016.04.18_07.37.27].jpg")
You're forgetting, if they hadn't attacked, the Federation would have an extra Guntank and Guncannon
>>14126957
Shocker?!
>>14131011
I can actually see Kycillia suing for peace with the Federation if she lived since she was always more pragmatic than Gihren. With Revil dead, the cowardly Feddie leadership would probably jump at the chance to end the war at the earliest opportunity and at this point, both sides are exhausted anyway. Kycillia will probably blame Gihren for all of Zeon's atrocities and toss Gihren's loyalists over to the Federation to be tried for war crimes so she can eliminate political rivals and give the Feddies their pound of flesh so they can show justice being served. I can even imagine her teaming up with the Federation to hunt down that traitor Delaz and his deadenders, since as a charismatic, hardcore Gihrenfag, he'd probably be one of the greatest political threats to her position. Needless to say, with a Zabi still in charge, the Zeeks who originally fled to Axis stay in Side 3.
It's what comes after this where things get interesting. Both Zeon and the Federation would probably return to the pre-war status quo of a cold war, most likely building up for a Round 2. Even without Stardust happening, it's likely for the Titans to still rise to power. After all, an inconclusive war whose result can be blamed on sniveling politicians is just the sort of thing that can empower militarist hardliners. On Zeon's side, Kycillia woud probably focus even more on Newtype research to offset Zeon's numerical weakness, which could see the early introduction of crazy NT tech and even the Puru clone army. It's interesting to speculate what kind of position Haman would have in a Kycillia-run Zeon too.
And of course, waiting in the shadows would be Char. What would he be planning? Whose side would he join? Who would he fuck over?
>>14128057
The feds' military buildup was always in response to Zeon's buildup; the Feds didn't even HAVE a space fleet until Zeon started building one first.
Presumably the Feds were working on a deterrence policy; they built up forces and showed them off to remind Zeon that any funny business they tried wouldn't go unanswered. It wasn't a fucking challenge, but try telling that to a bunch of soon-to-be mass murderers.
Shame they didn't do the same in regards to Mobile Suits, but you really can't blame the Feds for thinking they wouldn't be effective. Hell, /m/ can't go a week or two without some autist raining on the fun parade by reminding everyone how shit mechs would be as actual combat vehicles.
>>14128057
>>14130796
Couple of things here, the Federation was the one who started the military arms race when they started the Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan right after Side 3 declared independence, this lead to Side 3 upgrading their self defense force into a free standing army, where the Federation then built even more with the Year 70s Armament Reinforcement Plan. You also have to remember there were over 20 years between Side 3 declaring independence and the One Year War. And half those years were under Zeon Zum Deikun. The Federation clearly didn't want to normalize relations because they feared that if they did, they'd be giving approval to the other Sides to declare independence so they came down hard on Side 3, both economically and flexing their military might. Meanwhile in those years, only Side 6 decided to follow in Side 3's footsteps, so there were attempts to parlay with the other Sides. Just everyone else sided with the Federation. As for the attacks on the Sides in the One Week Battle. It was a cruel necessity since the logistics of maintaining an occupation force for every Side would be staggering and Zeon needed all their troops to fight off the Federation Fleets. There would have also been the issue of if the Federation retook one of the sides, it would give them a rally point for their fleets to attack Side 3. Part of the reason Solomon, A Baoa Qu and Granada became so important was because Zeon destroyed every other area that could be turned into a jumping point to get to Side 3.It was the right call on two fronts. Politically, the United States was looking at the post war world and needed to flex their muscle so the Soviets would be kept in check in the immediate aftermath. More importantly, they needed the Japanese to agree to the Potsdam Declaration, which they didn't. Because the alternative was Operation Downfall, the land invasion which would have deployed at least 7 more nukes and perhaps chemical weapons.
Also the Potsdam Declaration never mentioned the Emperor had to step down, so it could be interpreted both ways that he was part of the 'authority who mislead the people', or be apart of the 'peacefully inclined and responsible government'. People like to speculate that 'oh the Japanese were already willing to surrender. But that would have been only part of the government and military at the time. Even after the Nukes were dropped and Emperor Hirohito decided to surrender, there was still an attempted coup d'état by the military hardliners (Look up the Kyūjō incident).
>>14131301
Wrong, Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan right after Side 3 declared independence. Zeon didn't even finish commissioning their first ship until the end of the decade. Their deterrent policy has always been an overwhelming show of force. Which is why they had a propensity of holding navel reviews to flex their muscles and send the message 'it's madness to try and take us on.' (The British loved to do this if they ever had to deal with a colonial insurrection or were at war with one of their allies overseas where they could deploy an armada.) Plus you also have those 20 years between Zeon declaring themselves a Republic and the war. So if they had a plan outside of show of force, they sure dragged their feet.
On land, mobile suits are not that practical. in space, they'd have a natural AMBAC because of their limbs, so that's a reduction of propellant. (The AMBAC system is one of the big reasons Zeonic became the go to company for Zeon's military industry since they were the first to come forward with it.)
>>14133843
>the Federation was the one who started the military arms race when they started the Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan right after Side 3 declared independence
I do agree on the general idea of the EF/RoZ cold war being stoked by both sides, you cut things short if you point to the 60s rearmarment as the first step.
The independence you mention was - depending on the selected sources, of course - the result of a violent struggle initiated by Deikun's Contolist movement.
Then, on the other hand, one could point to the violent suppression of the Contolists as being the cause for that, which in turn... and so on ad nauseam.
Point being: Both sides can and will argue that the other is to blame for a spiral of escalation - which both could have broken at any point but both chose to continue for political/ideological reasons.
>>14127105
Big Rang and a bunch of Oggos
>>14134451
>The result of a violent struggle initiated by Deikun's Contolist movement
Going to need some evidence to support that. The only real violence came the Zabi's took power an removed any other factions they saw as threats. Either way, you're creating a chicken or the egg argument to say no side is responsible as opposed to looking at what action was the major catalyst for military build up. In this case it was clearly the Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan since the Federation didn't need to do such a large military build up if their objective wasn't to try and subjugate Side 3 via threat of force. Since they always could have tried to deal with it diplomatically. But never did.
>>14133843
And why was their independence necessary? You'd think if things were so bad that other Sides would willingly join with Zeon but most colonies seemed fine with what they had. Independence is a good cause but when it comes at the cost of unrelated lives then you're spoiling the ideal. In fact, you could even justify the military build-up under Deikun. But as soon as it became a Principality, the people lost their self-determination and it was no different from living under the Federation. Even if they had a better standard of living, they were being manipulated by the rulers. And after you saw Gihren's clear desire for conquest rather than independence towards the end of the series, how can you defend that?
Militarily the decisions weren't terrible, sure, if you place no weight on human life. It assured everyone else that Zeon was never going to be an ally. But as a whole Zeon's quest was unjustifiable, at least from the moment the Zabis took power.Agreed on the WWII stuff though, although helpful it was not strictly necessary to end the war with Japan (even ruling out Downfall) and was mostly to prepare for the Cold War. Japan had plenty of chances to avoid the bomb.Kind of like how Zeon could have spared tons of civilians lives by surrendering earlier.
>>14137188
>You'd think if things were so bad that other Sides would willingly join with Zeon but most colonies seemed fine with what they had.
I think it is important here to consider the length of Deikun's struggle for independence and that we are told he moved to Side 3 himself. During that time, Side 3 would probably have become a sort of promised land for all those who felt especially disenfranchised who would then also gravitate to Side 3 (like Deikun himself). As a result, many of the people who could have led independence movements in the other Sides were not there any longer. They were in Side 3.
>But as soon as it became a Principality, the people lost their self-determination
That is a very positive view of the Deikun regime. Zeon might have been a republic in name, but the fact that Deikun held power the entire time with Degwin as his right hand man and the fact that it so easily collapsed as soon as the republican strong man and über-father of the revolution was dead speaks volumes about its viability as a government truely representing the will of the people of the Side 3.
>>14137071
As I said, I do agree.
However, the EF rearmarment itself is still only a symptom of a lack of political will.
And that will was lacking on both sides. The leadership of the RoZ (and then the PoZ) and the EF quite readily entered into a tis-for-tat escalation. It does not matter "who started it", because both sides - in their respective perceptions - felt entirely justified.
Of course, we as external observers can try to point to a specific event as being the "true cause", but I feel this misses the point of trying to understand the political dynamics of the situation.
(All the while happily ignoring the fact we are dealing with a fictional universe, where the only "true" root cause of things is that someone created it in this fashion.)
>>14137313
Good points.
>>14125835
All they could have done was just go "Yep. The Federation sure does have some mobile suits right there!"
And then the Feds would have moved multiple units back to Luna II, with military trained pilots and then down towards Jaburo, quite possibly without any issues, speeding up the production of the GM.
But here's the thing. Even if the Gundam had been destroyed along with everyone on Side 7, it probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war. It would have just extended it.
>>14127012
The Titans gassed two colonies and tried to attack Von Braun. That's nothing compared to what Zeon did.
>>14125868
>Zakrello was junk, but i assume its data led to the creation of the Bygro series, which did play somewhat of an important role in the final days of the war.
depends on which version of the Zakrello we're talking about, normal UC version isn't all that great, while The Origin version was good enough to enter some degree of mass production, while the Bigro(which in normal continuity actually precedes the Zakrello and indeed pretty much all Zeon mobile armors beside the Adzam and possibly the Oggo) in The Origin is a prototype that never sees combat(which leads to it actually surviving the war), which is one of those alterations that I would love to ask Yas about someday
>>14126686
on the other hand without Amuro to counter most of Zeon's Newtype Corps, Zeon probably would have shredded the Federation fleets once the Elmeth, and some of the other Newtype MA's were ready
not to mention a lot more of Zeon's aces and generals would still be alive due to not getting White Deviled
>>14126960
at least in The Origin you can blame Char for this, he basically instigated the war, or at least ensured it started at least 5 to 10 years earlier than it would have
>>14127152
some of those numbers are incredibly brutal
>>14127285
not to mention is indirectly responsible for the loss of Ramba Ral and the Black Tri-Stars due to getting Garma killed
>>14131243
wouldn't have made much of a long term impact I imagine, neither suit left much of a legacy when you look at UC as a whole
>>14137188
>>14137313
Why does any group under the rule of a far away power wish for self governorship? Things don't have to be totalitarian for people to have the desire to control their own destines. As for the Zabis, it's the evils of living under a king that is one of your own, or a king who has no real connection to the people he's ruling. You're also jumping around to different parts from Zeon Zum Deikun's ideals to what Gihren did with no real cohesion outside of 'defend this position'. It's speculation that those like minded to Deikun's ideology all converged at Side 3. It's just as likely they kept to their own colonies, but they were marginalized and only Deikun's movement took root and grew. But with no clear information on this subject, we don't know. Side 3 was still a Republic, but because the majority of people backed Deikun, it's easy to see why people would misinterpret that it was something else. The ideology of Deikun endured for a good amount of time, it's just a matter of how pure it was, or if it was sanctioned by a government. As for Side 3 itself, you had the interim government become a puppet to the Federation after the war, and basically forced to go along with whatever they wanted because the Federation were much more likely to carry out a threat of force. (Which is why you had Side 3 hand over control of A Baoa Qu to them so readily.)
>>14137597
You can't really ask group of colonists to be indignant about group coming back if they've been wiped out in the first place. Plus it's the fact that what the Titans were doing was what many colonists feared (The Federation clamping down on the colony's via force.) So of course if a force claiming to be Zeon comes back and says 'We told you so', they're going to be at least somewhat receptive as opposed to just rejecting them outright. Also, it's the old 'evil you know vs the evil you don't know.'Hindsight is 20/20 you don't know if they'd surrender, it was the right call.
>>14125835
Then the Federation gets extra Project V units. There were at least three Gundams and two Guncannons and Guntanks. Tem Ray sticks around and builds more shit. Zeon gets wrecked even harder for the first half of the series. Elran likely isn't caught, and Odessa goes badly for the Federation. I have no idea what would happen after that.
>>14140852
>wipe out half (1/2) of humanity
>well it was either live under a system controlled from far away or live under a system close to home
>also the second system was known to manipulate public opinion 1984 style, believed in racial (spacial?) superiority, and replaced a republic with a monarchy
Sasuga Zeon you had humanity's priorities straight.
>>14141773
Well Zeon did a thorough job of eliminating the a majority of the colonists that hated them whole heartedly. Also, when you're fighting against a government that then immediately starts to oppose you after the war, it's going to make people think they were in the right.
>>14144882
>Well Zeon did a thorough job of eliminating the a majority of the colonists that hated them whole heartedly.
Maybe because they started a war that killed off half of humanity. Maybe that's why they were hated. Even if it wasn't, it is still not a good thing.
>Also, when you're fighting against a government that then immediately starts to oppose you after the war, it's going to make people think they were in the right.
Maybe they don't want someone else to kill off the other half of humanity. And nobody thought that Zeon was justified in their actions besides Zeeks.
>>14137635
>which is one of those alterations that I would love to ask Yas about someday
Probably just based it on shit like the Maus.
>>14144902
Well you still haven't found a plausible explanation as to why the colonist should have rejected Char's Neo-Zeon (Which they didn't) because of what happened during the One Year War, so all your points are moot.
>>14144942
Char's Neo Zeon was not the Principality of Zeon. He denounced the Zabi family at Dakar and revealed his lineage, which gave some people hope that he would live up to the ideal they held of the good old days under Deikun.
The point is only related to the second half of my post so the first part is correct either way.
>>14144981
Only in the TV timeline does that apply, and even then, when Neo Zeon appeared you didn't see all the Sides get up in arms to fight them. Hell, the Federation handed control of Side 3 over to Haman. And there were no mass riots of people saying 'No Zabi No'. So that actually makes your position even weaker.
>>14145018
I wish you'd type more coherently instead of allowing your consciousness to stream out through the keyboard. It makes your posts a little annoying to read.
>when Neo Zeon appeared you didn't see all the Sides get up in arms to fight them.
Just like the OYW right
Oh wait
Then Gryps?
How about First NZ War?
No? So why would a large-scale militarization of the colonies happen now? They are colonies, the Federation is supposed to protect them.
>Hell, the Federation handed control of Side 3 over to Haman.
That's called appeasement. She helped fight the Titans, she gets what she wants whether the citizens like it or not.
>And there were no mass riots of people saying 'No Zabi No'.
When? This part is unclear. Haman's Neo Zeon or Char's?
>>14145018
>And there were no mass riots of people saying 'No Zabi No'
You didn't actually watch ZZ,did you?
>>14127152
Sounds like complete bullshit, how on earth did the federations lose 4000 GM's to 3000 Doms when the GM is by all means a superior mobile suit with superior numbers
it doesn't make sense
>>14145628
These numbers were pre-solar ray
>>14145092
Considering a majority of this just speculation for the exact reasoning for both sides, I'm not really caring about the particulars because the end result is still set in stone that you didn't see the Sides unify to fight any resurgence of Zeon tooth and nail. You also create the impression that the civilians were helpless when you see multiple times of them stepping up to revolt or defend themselves from factions they see as belligerent when no one else will defend them. (That's the whole purpose of the League Militaire.) Or even when the Federation held the colonies with an iron fist via the Titans, you still had the 30 bunch incident where an entire colony rioted in protest to the policies of the Federation. In regards to the colonists rejecting Zeon, you never see such a large scale civilian uprising against them in any of their returns.
>>14145260
Some of the miners at Cicero? You mean the miners who rebelled only because of how poorly Chara treated them? The miners, where one of them said, that things were better under the Zabis? Where that scene was more of a diversion for Jewdough's plan? If that's your best evidence, you're going to have to produce something better.
>>14145628
It's not 3000 Doms, but 3000 MS (so Zaku, Dom, Gelgoogs and whatever else Zeon had)
>>14147644
>Some of the miners at Cicero? You mean the miners who rebelled only because of how poorly Chara treated them?
Sounds like you're getting caught up in the particulars when the end result is set in stone that they rioted against Zeon.
>>14147644
Let's review the argument, which is as I recall "Spacenoids in general favored the Principality of Zeon over the Federation after the war due to the sentiments and events prior to and proceeding the OYW".
>because of the Federation's actions after the OYW, spacenoids will begin to sympathize with the Principality of Zeon
Reminder: If 1/2 of humanity died during the One Week Battle, the majority of humanity lives in space, and Zeon represents a very minor part of the total spacenoid population, who do you think they were killing? Who do you think will remember that?
>if people didn't like the Principality of Zeon so much, why did one colony accept someone who was only fighting the Federation, which would have given every colony autonomy, made everyone Newtypes who could understand each other so they would never have wars ever again, all while denouncing the Titans and Zabis and Axis, and on top of everything was the son of the last influential leader fighting for rights instead of conquest
That seems like a pretty easy answer.
>the TV timeline shows things that he repeated at Sweetwater anyway
>because other Sides did not organize to battle, they must not have cared to stop Char's Zeon
Colonies are part of the Federation. All military action and financial support would go through them.
>we didn't see riots over Haman claiming Side 3
You mean Side 3, the center of Zeon and remnant-enabler, didn't mind another shot at conquest under Mineva Zabi with Axis's army? Wow.
>>14147644
>You also create the impression that the civilians were helpless when you see multiple times of them stepping up to revolt or defend themselves from factions they see as belligerent when no one else will defend them. (That's the whole purpose of the League Militaire.
How convenient of you to ignore the AEUG, You know, that Spacenoid militia made up of pro-Spacenoid Federation officers and Spacenoid civilian volunteers? The guys who weren't too fond of Zeon and only allied with them because they were forced to by their Lunarian backers? The guys who had no qualms about turning their guns on Axis Zeon at the most convenient opportunity? The guys who are hostile to and fighting against Neo Zeon throughout ZZ?I think Kamille here sums up the view the AEUG have of Zeon rather well.
There's also the fact that there don't seem to be masses of Spacenoids flocking to Neo Zeon to join the Noble Zeon Cause. In fact, Haman is so low on manpower that she's reduced to recruiting former Titans to shore up her numbers.
>>14147644
>ignoring the reasoning behind your posts, they never rose up against Zeon
See point 3, unless you mean colonists in Side 3, in which case see all the times where public opinion is manipulated and how they were never on the receiving end of the genocide. Dissenters were silenced quietly and said to be enemies of the citizens, just like any fascist dictatorship.
>You also...
>>14148128
>Or even when the Federation held the colonies with an iron fist via the Titans, you still had the 30 bunch incident where an entire colony rioted in protest to the policies of the Federation.
Titans had existed for 2 years and had never done anything on that scale. The Federation colonists were used to having free speech and different opinions than their lords and masters. And it started as a peaceful protest, which was allowed, but was put down after it evolved into a riot. Reminder "You can't really ask group of colonists to be indignant about group coming back if they've been wiped out in the first place" and "Zeon did a thorough job of eliminating the a majority of the colonists that hated them whole heartedly"
>In regards to the colonists rejecting Zeon, you never see such a large scale civilian uprising against them in any of their returns
Besides, you know, supporting the Federation/AEUG and keeping their heads low so they don't get capped before Zeon loses again.
it cracks my vein reading all these Zeon wanker apologists here trying to justify zeon's action. Sure, Hitler is definitely not wrong, he was justifiable of doing what he did. Sure.
>>14148347
>Zeon wanker apologists here
It's literally only Black_Knight. And I don't even know why people even bother arguing with him. He has literally defended pic related in the past. He's a Zeon-loving zealot who's head is crammed so far up Gihren's asshole that even Anavel Gato would go 'Holy fuck dude, dial it down a little. That really was kind of a shitty thing that Zeon did'.
>>14148347
>>14148383
BK is behind every pro-zeon post
>>14147760
>>14148022
>>14148128
>>14148187
>>14148187
Sounds like you're ignoring the contexts and outright facts involved with the screencap. You make it sound like the elimination of a majority of the enemy groups that opposed you will not reduce the amount of people who disagree with your goals in the long run. Military and finacial support doesn't go through the colonies, the Federation always had the ability to act unilaterally and do things without the consent of the colonists, which is why you keep seeing movements against the Federation throughout the years. It still blows up the narrative that people around the Earth Sphere should hate Zeon. Hell, you had some veterans from the One Year War come back out to support Haman's Neo Zeon. Oh yes, the AEUG. It's convenient you mention a group comprised mainly of former Federation military waging war against the Federation, but would somehow not be sympathetic to Zeon, who'd have thought people who fought for the Federation would not like Zeon? Shocking really. As for Haman, she's looking for ready made soldiers to deal with the immediate threats. Now you're making the excuse that public opinion is manipulated and everyone can be subjugated. Remember when the Titans tried that? Didn't work so well. Shows how good the free speech and freedom of assembly is when their attempt to shut down the protests was to gas the entire colony. (Even the Zabis didn't need to gas their own colonies to deal with any opposition against them within Side 3.) and it wasn't even that action that was the main source of the outrage, it was the cover up that followed. You make it sound like the colonies are given free reign when all they're allowed to do is shout in a glass tube and not have their message mean anything. Maybe that's why you see the message of Zeon resonate with the colonists well after the One Year War.
I just want to say that a testament of a good show is how we can have heated discussions about the political workings of its fictional universe with strangers on the internet 40 years after airing.
>>14150292
One thing people can't question Tominio on is his world building.
>>14128057
Your first and only mistake was to answer Black Knight, you jackass
>>14125835
honestly didn't these guys do a lot to contribute to zeon winning the war? imagine if they hadn't destroyed a lot of the guntank and gundam parts in their initial assault and made the white base crew destroy even more afterwards. wouldn't zeon have been even more fucked by a more efficient and better maintained white base?
No only way to win was to upgrade the acguy
>>14150543
They did. Unfortunately a fly got into the computer just as the engineer was clicking Save and got fused with the plans.
>>14150557
And it transformed into Rapeguy.
The Federation's purity will be finished in no time.
>>14150117
So you admit you were wrong about Char's Neo Zeon.
The amount of people who opposed Zeon was reduced but the percentage increased. Plenty of soldiers were colonists and they all paid war taxes, why would they band together to fight an enemy on their own when their resources could be much more effective in the hands of the Federation? Side 3 was never on the receiving end of Zeon's atrocities so there's no reason for them to hate Zeon of any kind, they were fanatics. AEUG had plenty of soldiers who joined in the interwar period who didn't want to be Titans and still hated Zeon because guess what, every other colonist is a Feddie and hates Zeon too. She wouldn't have to look for instant soldiers if she wasn't low on manpower because she would always have a constant stream of trained men. Titans tried it on a colony who had enjoyed free speech for a long time versus literally space Nazi Germany who had been in power and spouting the same rhetoric for 20 years. And if you have a source that the people were angrier about the cover-up rather than the act then please offer it. Colonists outside of Side 3 don't support Zeon ever again with the lone exception of Sweetwater, which was a ghetto.
>>14151358
Hardly, if anything Sweetwater is further proof of the colonist's continued support of Zeon's ideology. You can try to spin it as ('One colony!' Or 'It was a Ghetto!' But Char and Zeon were loved. When was the last time you had a people break out in song for their leader on a train? Also, you're just doing a bunch of speculation on what the taxation system was like, or that Free Speech the Federation was alive and weel. If anything free speech was suppressed under the Federation's rule since you see multiple times throughout the series the mention of Underground Newspapers. If free speech was around, you wouldn't have the need for an underground newspaper. How many civilians did join the AEUG who didn't have some affiliation with the Federation? Even Kamille was affiliated with the Federation through his parents so his perception of Zeon was colored through that.
You're just going to have to admit that even after the One Year War, people were still receptive to the ideals of Zeon. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to keep coming back.
>>14148347
>trying to justify zeon's action
Justification and understanding may appear as two sides of the same coin, but even so they are still two sides.
One can understand why Hitler and other people in power in Germany during the Nazi years acted the way they did. Whether you then try to use that to justify their actions is another matter.
Regarding OP's original question, I'd say it's possible but there are too many variables to really predict it.
My thinking here is that there are a couple of important differences between the OYW and WWII, which make the latter difficult to use as a model to predict the outcome of the former.
First, both sides seemed to subscribe to some form of "decisive battle" doctrine throughout the war. Neither was set on waging a long war or winning through (superior) industrial strength. Again and again, both sides tried to break their enemy in a single stroke, believing that this would result in their victory. And although this failed again and again, in the end, the thinkers behind this could still feel vindicated because ABQ really did result in federation victory following such a decisive engagement.
Second (and tying in with the above), the leadership on both sides appears to have been willing to compromise and even surrender before the situation had completely deteroriated (which allowed the decisive battle doctrine to work). It is only through the actions of charismatic/powerful/ruthless individuals that the collapse of one of the two parties is prevented at several points.
Finally, even late war the EF's advantage seems not to have been truly overwhelming. As late as Odessa, a man like Elran, who must have had a pretty good understanding of the EF's strength, put his money on Zeon and not the EF.
Also, I'd say the OYW was not an ideological total war to the death, but this is probably my weakest argument here. Still, both sides were willing to negotiate and abide by treaties (the Antarctic Treaty standing out here) and with the exemption of the One Week Battle, there is no evidence of systematic crimes of war or genocide being waged by either side (key word "systematic" as in endorsed and ordered by the high command and conducted on a large scale - we do see evidence of crimes being commited and criminal orders being given by individual commanders on both sides).
