How much thrust would you realistically need to push back Axis back?
Or at least buy time for some extra people to evacuate and maybe minimise some of the damage by slowing its descent.
An advanced enough Valkyrie can do it. Gundams are just tin can shit, they're really bottom of the pile tech-wise.
>>14095000
That sounds like an awful amount of bias there .
>>14094884
I forget, did axis have its thrusters active at this point? regardless, it's practically impossible to calculate how much force is required to counter the movement without knowing how fast it's going
>>14094884
>How much thrust would you realistically need to push back Axis back?
that's a fun question.
let me spend some time on it and i'll come back to this thread when i'm more prepared to give an answer.
>>14095011
Bias nothing. Look at the thrust to weight ratio of Gundams and Valkyries. Gundams typically don't even come close.
>>14095019
A high thrust to weight ratio doesn't mean you can push back a 10-15km asteroid travelling under both it's own power and that of gravity. Not even at 18.5 or whatever the best variable fighters put out.
>>14095041
>>14095013
>own power
But the thrusters were gone
>>14094884
Getter Rays
>>14095045
They had still brought it up to speed and given it a lot of momentum of it's own even without gravity.
>>14095019
>thrust to weight ratio
>while carrying a billion tonne rock
BRAVO
R
A
V
O
>>14095000
except the Nu Gundam did push back axis anon
textbook underestimation of the power of Gundam
How much thrust does elf dust generate
>>14094884
Depends on a couple factors like:
Total mass
Acceleration
Rate of orbital decay
Composition
Size
The irony of CCA is that if Axis was hollowed out enough it might have just broken up and disintegrated when structural failure occurred
>>14095000
This is assuming the Valkyrie wouldn't just be blown away by the force of the atmosphere and velocity around Axis.
I mean we do have to take into account that while they might have thruster power output, they are generally depicted as relatively brittle by nature of their complex transformation mechanics.
Been almost three decades, and he's uttered the words "Nu Gundam wa date ja nai" probably dozens of times in games and comics, and people still ain't listening to him.
No respect man.
>>14094884
this is actually a classic demonstration of fiction ignoring orbital mechanics tbqfah (to be quite frank and honest). the smart move would have been for amuro to get under it and push it radially out from earth to alter it's orbit so that it exits the atmosphere, and then when it reaches the other side of its orbit impart more forward momentum to it
then earth would have a neat asteroid in low orbit until it preturbations and minor atmospheric drag slows it to an impact trajectory. the smart move would be to put it in a just higher than geosynch orbit where it will slowly gain velocity from gravitational effects and spiral outwards towards an eventual encounter with the moon or leave the earth's gravity well entirely and then probably come back in like 20 years for a period of time, maybe eventually smacking into us
>>14095237
>they are generally depicted as relatively brittle
You should really watch the series before you say things like this.
Valkyries are durable as fuck.
Gotta love that when the animators redrew Nu Gundam for even that brief cameo in Unicorn, they even recreated its little groin injury Sazabi gave it.
Thats attention to detail.
>>14095270
I've seen every single one and I'm quite fond of Macross.
Sure they're durable in Macross, but relatively speaking at a glance they seem more on the delicate spectrum of Real types than some ones from other series'. And that's fine, it makes sense, they're incredibly complex and intricate convertables compared to more straightly armored mechs.
You see I don't have to massively overblow the capabilities of things from a series in order to like it, but like someone else said you're obviously insanely biased so I'm not expecting this line of comments to be particularly educational. Believe what you want.
>>14095237
>they are generally depicted as relatively brittle by nature of their complex transformation mechanics.
Talking out of your ass I see. Valkyries are made with a space metal not unlike Gundam's lunar titanium and the joints are reinforced with energy conversion armor. Even in fighter mode early VF models had armor comparable to a tank, in battroid that armor strength is practically doubled or tripled depending on the model.
It was the front half of Axis. the back half with the thrusters had been blown off by Bright's team.
Once something like Axis is in free fall inside the moon's orbit. You can't stop it. The reaction mass requirements are too high.
>p.s. where was the Solar System Weapon?
>>14095284
Grunt Valks still blow up like a Leo.
>>14094884
It seems the majority of axis was a hallowed out asteroid. It was originally mined so I am thinking it is made of some precious metal or contains something in its core. Axis also had another asteroid called "medusa" attached to it. This circular asteroid has a one kilometer wide gravity block or gravitational living space. About 30,000 people plus manufacturing equipment was based on Axis and Medusa.
In this picture you can see Axis with Medusa attached. The black circle inside of Medusa is 1 kilometer from edge to edge at its center. That would make Axis at least 3-5 kilometers wide and about 4-5 kilometers tall. Half of Axis blows up and another half heads towards Earth thankfully its the half without Medusa.
However even for this you are talking about an asteroid that is several kilometers wide and tall. I can't even find any research to completely stop a asteroid with solid rocket propellant only some articles to gently push it and even that requires and ungodly amount of rockets.
>>14095284
You see the thing is that that's all well and good, but you're talking out of your ass just as much as anyone else. The first thing you said was that a single Valkyrie could push back a giant asteroid and, by implication, take the force of the atmosphere at the same time.unlike those "tin can shit Gundams", simply because they have "space metal" "not unlike lunar titaniam" (so you're even admitting their comparable.), and your rationality in belittling me suggestiing (wtihout the need for insulting anyone I might add) that maybe the Valkyries hypothetically, possibly being RELATIVELY more delicate than some mechs from OTHER series' is because they have" armor comparable to a tank", which by the way almost every fucking giant animated robot tends to be..and that if I don't agree with you I must not have watched any Macross....
...and you have the audacity to say I'M talking out of my ass?
>>14095304
>The first thing you said was that a single Valkyrie could push back a giant asteroid
Stopped reading right there. Where in my post did I say that? Are you retarded or are you confusing me with someone else?
Rather than take the bait of arguing with the exceedingly obvious Macross fanboy looking for a fight lets go back to the legitimately interesting question with some numbers.
Officially, I've been able to find that Nu Gundams' maximum thruster output is apparently 1.55 G, and paraphrasing a post I read on a forum about how that number is attained...
>You can typically calculate the acceleration by adding up the total thruster output in kg, dividing that by 1000 (turns the value into tons), and then divide by the suit's weight.
>For your example the Nu has a grand total of 97,800 kg of thrust.
Dividing by 1000 (97.8 tons) and then divide by 63, which gets you 1.5523... which you generally try to round. 1 G is about 9.81 m/s^2 (9.80665 m/s2 if you want to go for the nonrounded value), so you multiply that by the acceleration in Gs to get a total of just over 15 metres per second^2.
>Overall you would have stronger thrusters if their output is higher. Of course, that changes quite a lot during a battle when you lose weight from propellant/ammunition. The Nu more than doubles its mass when fully loaded.
I'm just posting this to get the ball rolling, because I really don't want this thread to de-evolve into people getting mad at one guy because it's kind of a neat question.
There are a lot of factors but maybe we could sort of brainstorm a general answer of whether this would have been possible with Nu Gundam NOT utilizing the Psycho Frame, and likewise...maybe how much MORE thrust power Nu Gundam would have needed to actually push it back (or as other posts have suggested, maybe not necessarily even need to necessarily push it "away".).
Also, has there ever been an official weight given to Axis overall? (that we'd have to maybe cut in half because it's only half of Axis that begins to fall to earth.)
>>14095304
he just hates it when someone robots is better than his
Take note kids, Macross vs. Gundam shitposters are the most successful kind of shitposters.
you would need about as much thrust as the Nu Gundam produced when it pushed back axis
I asked the exact same thing about 7 years ago.
Time sure flies.desustorage.org/m/thread/4132933I miss the old Sciencegar threads.
>>14095344
Well its an interesting question. Not surprised at all its been asked before.
>>14094884
Good Night Sweet Prince
>>14095351
Not saiyng I'm the creator or even the first person to ask that, but in all these years I'm sure this has been asked like 3 or 4 times. That's one of the most iconic stuff from Gundam, so I guess it's understandable.
>>14095360
Well whatever the case thanks a lot for the link from the past, it was actually really interesting. I do miss /m/ from those times too, it was a much cooler place.
So yeah, for the OP there you go, using Jegans as a measurement, which is great by the way, they concluded that Nu Gundam would have to put up an additional output of 2x10^15, or 20000000000000000 Jegans (all with a an individual thruster output of 1.03 G), which was their measurement for the sheer amount of infinite hax force caused by the Psychoframe.
So yeah that's a whole lot of extra power it would have needed on its own.
Also, I know he was a shitposter but just saying, I really doubt a single Valkyrie is gonna fair much better. lol
>>14095405
And of course it should go without saying but this was all estimation on Sciencegar and others' parts, as obviously we're dealing with fictional machines and the actual weight of the Axis was an educated guess but I don't think even knowing that would have changed the magnitude of the answer all that relevantly as even a much smaller asteroid would probably still be generating an insane amount of force.
>>14095405
http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/yf-29.htm
A Durandal could do well.
>>14095258
Nu gundam is just an oversized RX78 with stupid as fuck funnel weapon
>>14095405
>desustorage.org/m/thread/4132933
that was for an asteroid 95 km in width, where as >>14095303
clearly established that axis was likely 3-5 kilometers wide and about 4-5 kilometers tall, so the force would be GREATLY lower.
>>14094884
We would need to know its mass an its orbit. We know neither.
>>14095267
Why is everyone ignoring this post. Things in orbit don't fall straight down. They curve. The energy needed to deflect a moving object is much smaller than needed to bring it to full stop.
>>14095619
so are you saying that nu gundam overcoming the trajectory and pushing it backward is an even greater feat than carrying it out of the atmosphere?
>>14095650
It didn't go backward, Newtype powers ejected it.
>>14095663
if it didn't go backward then did it go forward?
>>14095672
It pushed Axis out of Earth's gravity, not backward.
>>14095767
I see what you didWE BELONG TO EARTH
>>14095011
There's some troll trying to stir up the Macross v. Gundam shitposting again. This isn't even the first thread today.
Sure looks like it worked, though. More people getting ass-blasted over power levels.
>>14095431
Well let's see.
I'm no engineer and I'm dealing with fictional machines, that likewise have measured their propulsion output very differently but I'll try.
Durandal
Force = 7150000 N (all the thrusters, measured here in kN, combined and converted into N)
Mass = 11920 kg (assuming no equipment.)
Acceleration = 599.83, rounded up to 600 m/s2
Nu Gundam
Mass = 27900 kg (with no additional equipment, as depicted in the movie.)
Force = 956970 N
Acceleration = 34.3 m/s2
So while the Durandal does in fact have substantially higher propulsion for sure, I really still doubt that's enough for one single Durandal to push an Asteroid out of the atmosphere by itself.
There's also a lot of huge unknowns with this, like something not brought up is the difference made between Durandal's propulsion in Battroid mode vs Fighter mode, like obviously its max propulsion will be in Fighter mode but it's gonna be the Battroid mode trying to push the Asteroid away obviously as well (Gerwalk mode's body probably causes too many complications.). In other words, I really don't know base on what's given whether this max propulsion, even when accounting the thrusters, reflects Fighter mode only or also reflects Battroid mode...cause I just don't know if the positioning of the thrusters differing between the two modes matters or not (and I'd like to think it does, otherwise whats the point of fighter mode if it could go/push just as fast in Battroid?)
Trying to compare something quantified in kg and G, and something quantified in kN or Ns is pretty hard but I tried my best. This is probably very debatable, but one thing's for sure the amount of force needed to push even a 5 km wide and tall asteroid like Axis is still substantially larger than what even the Durandal, by itself, is capable of exerting.
But it wasn't the Nu Gundam per se, what pushed Axis back
It was the will of millions of people gathering on Amuro and the Nu, giving it huge amounts of energy to do the deed.
>>14095918
that's like saying a spirit bomb attack can never be attributed to goku because most of the energy comes from other living things
>>14095918
Yeah it was, the Psychoframe (or rather the combined power of the Psychoframes of both Nu Gundam, and Sazabi's escape pod.) manifested either Amuro's sheer will, or the combined will of others (I'm not really 100% sure which, I kind of prefer the former.) to basically defy the odds and divert its course.
It never really bothered me as much as it bothers some people, but this topic was about how much more power the Nu Gundam (ror the Nu combined with all those other MS' as the old thread linked was doing.) would have had to actually push the Axis away ASSUMING it didn't have the Psycho Frame.
>>14094884
Orbital mechanics don't work that way.
Amuro, pictured there, is not saving lives. He is actually making Axis fall to Earth FASTER.
>>14095973
> the Psychoframe (or rather the combined power of the Psychoframes of both Nu Gundam, and Sazabi's escape pod.) manifested either Amuro's sheer will, or the combined will of others (I'm not really 100% sure which, I kind of prefer the former.)
> I kind of prefer it manifesting Amuro's sheer will
Yuck. That said, it did grant Amuro's wish, since he wanted to show people the light of the human heart and the movie ends with people looking up and wondering what they're seeing as the Earth is surrounded by green light.
>>14097413
How would he be speeding it up out of interest?
>>14097413
Amuro should have accelerate Axis so it can escape from Earth Gravitational Well, but hell it does look cool, awesome and awe inspiring when Amuro push it to demonstrate that hisNu Gundam Wa Date Janai
>>14095115
False: Spaceteen mind magic pushed back the rock. He just happened to be in a robot at the time.
Happy to know a /m/ thread once again had a rational dialog about IMPROVING fictional science with real knowledge
That's a change from
> Go fuck yourself, it's fictional space logic anywayreading this, someone will have the urge to say that
Anyway I wonder if an asteroid is even structurally strong enough to be pushed at any speed.
>>14094884
TRANS-AM
Will Gundam ever get away from recreating the colony drop, first activation, final stand, and the Axis push?
>>14100438
Go fuck yourself, it's fictional space logic anyway
There, I said it. Just for you anon.
>>14095011
>posts 40k shit
>calling other people out on "bias"
Fucking kek.
>>14095000
well if you're comparing macross tech levels to gundam's it's pretty much this
>gundam = stories about kids falling into the cockpit of advanced mecha
>Macross = stories about humanity falling into the cockpit of an advanced mecha
>>14097879
Orbiting is basically flying sideways while gravity tries to grab you, fly sideways fast enough and you'll stay in orbit.
>>14095890
Still a better job than what the Nu Gundam could do.
>>14095267
>>14095619
Well, we had a glut of threads a few months ago that were based on the idea that Amuro actually doomed himself and everyone else by pushing against Axis instead of shoving it past Earth, so the explanation's lost its novelty.
>>14095237
The newest Macross Delta episode has a VF-171 (Mook unit) get hit by several missiles. The pilot was knocked out and evacuated, and MC jumped in the mech and it works fine.
Macross tech was pretty fucked up. early Valkyrie models are at least equal to V2 Gundam levels
>>14097879
>How would he be speeding it up out of interest?
Things stay in orbit because they are moving so fast that they keep missing the Earth. Their forward motion is fast enough that the gravity of the Earth is not enough to pull them straight down.
Amuro was pushing back against Axis, reducing its forward motion and giving gravity less and less to fight against, meaning that Axis's rate of descent would be increasing. If he didn't want Axis to fall, Amuro needed to get behind it and push it forward, not back.
>>14095619
>Why is everyone ignoring this post.
Because he wrote TBQFAH and then wrote out what it stands for anyways.
Im sure he makes interesting points but it's typically best not to open with idiot talk
>>14094884
That's obvious.
It's1T of thrust.
>>14107432
>>14097879
This is one way to illustrate it, an object in orbit around the earth is essentially falling "around" the earth, it just goes fast enough to keep missing it (purple line C)
if it goes slower, then it can lose orbit and fall to the earth (lines A and B)
if it goes faster, then it can move into higher orbit or even break orbit and move further away from the earth (green and orange lines D and E)
we're saying it'd be easier if amuro were pushing it from the other side in order to speed axis up and have it go fast enough again to orbit around the earth, because pushing axis from the angle he did like in the movie actually kinda slows it down more since it already had momentum and was moving in that direction
![[EG] Char's Counterattack BD(1080p 10bit)[23C71E13].mkv_snapshot_01.48.25_[2016.04.11_22.20.43].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/tHy5jgo.jpg "[EG] Char's Counterattack BD(1080p 10bit)[23C71E13].mkv_snapshot_01.48.25_[2016.04.11_22.20.43].jpg")
>>14109736
and in the movie they sort of reference that
axis had its engine pulsed to give it a nudge toward earth, and londo bell set a lot of explosives inside axis to try and break it up into pieces
but axis proved more durable than they thought (it was a really hasty and desperate plan too) so the giant explosion accelerated the front half of axis making it go fast enough to get back into orbit, while the rear half of axis was slowed down even more by the explosion and was going to fall to earth
>>14109711
Almost missed it. Clever little dog.
>>14109753I don't get is
>>14109753
I do try.
>>14109781
Watch the movie, you'll understand.
>>14095067
still makes you wonder why the neo zeon soldiers helped up to that point and all of a sudden they wanted to help amuro stop the asteroid from falling
>>14111557
The psychoframe superimposed Amuro's will onto theirs. What they wanted didn't matter, what Amuro wanted replaced their own goals and motivations and they couldn't tell the difference.
This was later retconned into them just randomly changing sides because of the power of humanity or something, because Bandai realized that uncounterable mindcontrol of the entire battlefield would make mobile suits totally irrelevant so they couldn't afford to have that be a thing psychoframe could do anymore. You don't need to print robots off an assembly line if one newtype and a handful of psychoframe can make the opposing side surrender and think it was their own idea to do so.
>>14111557
>>14111596
Wasn't it only 2 or 3 Gaera Dogas that helped? It just shows that not all soldiers In Neo Zeon bought Char's bullshit. The psychoframe telepathy probably convinced them to help Amuro out.
>>14111557
They changed their minds because they saw a lot of Feds willing to risk their lives for something. In this case, peventing nuclear winter. They were throwing their lives away on an ideal. Which is Zeon thinking. When Zeon soldiers normally think of Feds as having none.
You don't need any mind control rubbish, which the movie in no way substantiates, and I'd be surprised if Sunrise retracted in any capacity since they've never said shit officially about the events in Gundam to my knowledge. They helped because they saw dozens of Feds dying for s cause and felt empathy and regret.
