Daily reminder that the tactics Zeon employed during the the One Week Battle were completely legitimate and the complete destruction of enemy aligned Sides was necessary to bring a swift end of to the war.
This is not debatable.
>>14069697
Get fucked zeek scum, don't you have spacenoids to gas to save them?
>>14069697
>swift end to the war
Says the side3 that lost the war lmao
>>14069727
Those who opt to stay enslaved to the Earth Federation and have their souls bound by gravity don't deserve freedom for if they don't want to save themselves first, how can someone else free them?
>>14069730
Only because Revil's prolonging of the war which brought more death to both sides.
>>14069697
It patently is debatable or else no-one would debate it. If it really wasn't debatable you wouldn't feel the need to say it is, because it's lack of need would be taken as a given.
>>14069742
Freedom isn't in debate though, life is.
Also I love that people expect that if Zeon won the Feds would just calmly accept it, even after a treaty when Zeon had at least 4 separate rebellions after a treaty.
>>14069697
Except War was not brought to swift end but went on for year ,consequently leading to death of half population, geographical and climate damage and ending with Zeon's defeat.
It's effect are still fel to this day,where we have to endure horrible shit like Gundam Unicorn
>>14069697
Everything is debatable. Where do you think you are?
>>14069781
It is not debatable because the facts are set in stone that only by bringing in a subjective viewpoint to the debate and ignoring key facts regarding the situation such as a subjective view of morality, that one could even fathom the idea that what Zeon did during the One Week Battle was wrong.
Yet we still have people here who would still dare to inject their subjective opinions into the debate, so it's necessary to post these reminders to put the objective version and the facts out there as a gentle reminder to those who don't know.
>>14069794
The Federation's population is like your average /m/oron feddie, they'll talk a big game, but the moment shit goes down they'll fold like a stack of cards. Look at how quickly the Federation leadership rolls over to people of power in any part. Not only in how they would have signed the peace treaty with Zeon before Revil prolonged the war. But in later eras with the Titans or the Federation giving up the Frontier colonies to the Crossbone Vanguard. Some rank and file solders might not accept it for personal reason, but the people in the Federation don't fight for an ideology, they fight for the status quo. If Zeon becomes the status quo, they'd fall in line because that is what fighting for peace means to them now.
>>14069798
Then all the more reason to justify that the Earth Sphere would be better off if Zeon were the victors.
>>14069845
>Then all the more reason to justify that the Earth Sphere would be better off if Zeon were the victors.
>expecting to be better off after having blood of innocents in their hands
No wonder you lost and situation kept getting worse with each passing years.
>>14069858
>blood of 'innocents'
Making the mother of all omelets here Chris, can't fret over every egg that decided to side with the enemy.
>>14069697
Fuck off you Zabi cock sucker .
They murdered Deikun for their greed and ambition.
I would rather die fighting on behalf of earthnoid than fighting as pawn of Zabi.
I am sure his son is still alive.I will serve his cause if he appears
Gentle reminder.
>>14069874
You betrayed Jesus,Simon.
your omelet will never reach the frying pan
>>14069845
Their tactics being right IS subjective. If you think it's objective you don't know the meaning of the word.
>>14069845
>It is not debatable because the facts are set in stone that only by bringing in a subjective viewpoint to the debate and ignoring key facts regarding the situation such as a subjective view of morality, that one could even fathom the idea that what Zeon did during the One Week Battle was wrong.
Name three. After you have done this, explain to me how the killing of random, unaligned civilians is justified and necessary, and after this, how the selective extermination of particular human races is necessary and justifiable, as well as the claim that Zeon's people are a "chosen people".
You must also justify the intention of Zeonic leadership to establish a family-base hierarchical rule, the suppression of Side 3's own anti-Zeon elements, the general suppression of dissent within Zeon controlled colonies and locations on Earth, the launching of the entire "war for independence" when Zeon nearly had it in the bag already, and the launching of said war when Zeon was in full awareness of how it lacked the resources and manpower to actually win the war by conventional means.
Oh, by the way, you must also explain how, for the last part, Zeon's engineers had no idea what the fuck they were doing, generally creating terrestrial vehicles inferior to their Federation counterparts, how the ground forces' lack of skill and inadequately made machines caused them to fail to gain ground quickly against MS-free EF conventional forces, and how Zeon's focus on aquatic MS screwed them.
>>14069697
>Start the war
>Commit war crimes to win the war
>Lose the war
>Spend the next century starting new years because you are THAT butthurt
Also gassing fellow Spacenoids is fucking unpardonable. It's like poisoning the only oasis for two hundred miles in a desert. It's an act of hideously callous cruelty and disregard for the sanctity of human life, but Zekes are inhuman animals so I wouldn't expect them to understand the concept of life having innate value.
>>14069742
The majority of casualties and loss of life in the oyw occured BEFORE Revil was captured or made his speach and the antarctic treaty was made.
The whole "1/2 of humanity was killed" thing happened in the first month of the war, not due to it being prolonged.
>>14069889
>Burch
/v/ would have a field day with you.
>>14069881
His son would use you as a pawn in his personal vendettas. Good job there.
>>14069895
Wrong, look at the sheer difference in size and resources and tell me another way to stop the Federation aligned Sides from mobilizing against Zeon. Subjectively, the complete destruction of enemy aligned Sides was the most sound path to secure victory.
>>14069905
>>14069927
Already trying to play the '>mum morality' and '>war crimes' card with 'killing of random, unaligned civilians'. They were neither random, or unaligned. They all lived in Federation aligned Sides and had ample time to either leave their Colonies before the outbreak of the war (Don't say they didn't have years.) But by staying they gave tacit approval to the Federation. Ergo, they are a Federation population center and a grounds for more Federation soldiers that Zeon would have to fight later if they didn't kill them. Also if Zeon was indiscriminate in their killings of everyone that wasn't them. They would have attempted more colony drops or just opting to drop objects from the Shoal zone onto Earth. The rest of your post is just a giant strawman that has nothing to do with the One Week Battle itself.
>>14069972
Of course I would happily die after tasting Zabi blood
>>14069972
You just reject any other way and say it doesn't count. If it was sent in stone then show us where. No tactic I know of has ever been objectively right, this one certainly isn't.
>>14069981
So you're nothing but an animal who fights only for blood lust or revenge? Nice.
>>14069989
Zabi's have to be killed by the very beast they are
>>14070000
witnessed and checked.
>>14069972
>Already trying to play the '>mum morality' and '>war crimes' card with 'killing of random, unaligned civilians'. They were neither random, or unaligned. They all lived in Federation aligned Sides and had ample time to either leave their Colonies before the outbreak of the war (Don't say they didn't have years.) But by staying they gave tacit approval to the Federation. Ergo, they are a Federation population center and a grounds for more Federation soldiers that Zeon would have to fight later if they didn't kill them. Also if Zeon was indiscriminate in their killings of everyone that wasn't them. They would have attempted more colony drops or just opting to drop objects from the Shoal zone onto Earth. The rest of your post is just a giant strawman that has nothing to do with the One Week Battle itself.
Wow nice argument there that dosen't counters the facts raised against your case.Keep it up and keep crying " it..it's legimate guys".
>>14069972
Only except, if the "most sound path to secure victory" still failed, that leads us to the conclusion that either:
>Zeon strategists are incredibly shortsighted and therefore did not know beforehand the extent of their failure
>Zeon strategists presumed failure beforehand and still committed to war
Do you want folks from either category leading humanity?
>>14069988
I reject irrelevant information, which is what 3/4ths of that banality called a post was.
Now, you can say I'm wrong, but if that's the case, you have to provide something that's not only right, but better. So. You have the Federation and every other Side against you where you are outmatched at least 20 to 1. (Probably much more since the 20 to 1 number was said at Garma's funeral where Zeon had greatly thinned the Federation's numbers.) How would you subjugate and hold enemy territory in a time of war without wasting untold resources on occupation forces when it's necessary to commit them to the warfront?
>>14070000
Irrelevant to the conversation. And people wonder why the Zabi's acted like they did. But nice quints.
>>14070031
>>14070057
>Other Sides opt to remain with the Federation
>That makes them Federation aligned
>When war does break out, the citizens of those Sides will flood to join the Federation's military
>Zeon would have to fight even MORE Federation forces if left unchecked.
>Can't leave them alone either because if they just destroyed the garrisons, the Sides would still actively aid the Federation with supplies, people and intel at best, or openly rebel against Zeon at worst, wasting resources and lives.
The destruction of the Federation aligned Sides robbed the Federation of shipyards, staging areas, military production centers, and recruits in a single fell swoop.
Find me a way to be that efficient through other means that doesn't resort to pie in the sky thinking,
>>14070057
Failure is strategically sound goal Zeon strived for.
Killing your own father who is onw his to peach talk was a legimate military action.
But you feddies will keep saying it's patricide when it's not since he was a sovreign who should have court martial his own son and his son did the right thing but getting shot in head by his sister.
This was spacenoid cause became eternal and accordance to sane military and diplomatic doctrine
>>14070073
>The destruction of the Federation aligned Sides robbed the Federation of shipyards, staging areas, military production centers, and recruits in a single fell swoop.
>Find me a way to be that efficient through other means that doesn't resort to pie in the sky thinking,
But it didn't stopped the Fedearation .Instead for years to come,it sabotaged the spacenoid cause as federation easily points out says how hypocrite Zeon were.
Zeon never leaned it's lesson and then did Operation Stardust, and guess why The Titians were created?
They oppressed the space noids mire legitmately than your asinine arguments of comminting warcrimee by killing civillains
FFS You are saying that barbaric ways of war are right.
>>14070073
I actually don't have to provide better, because I'm not making a claim. You have to prove it's objective, since you're the one saying so. You say it's set in stone: prove it.
>>14069697
Black_Knight April' fools still doesn't excuse your retardy
>>14070111
As I have said before,Civilians are legimate target since being armless dosen't mean you are not soldier.Similarly killing sovereign of state on his way to peace talk is also right because he was acting against the sovereign of state.
It was necessary for attaining the resolve of war by getting killed by getting shot in head through laser.It was the only way war continued to Zeon's goal of defeating by killing it's vast manpower.
>>14070107
So just because it doesn't stop them, it's not worth perusing in the first place? You lack fortitude. If anything the Federation still was going to hold power by any means and if you go by the TV timeline in Unicorn, ran a massive cover up of the Lapis Box showing they had no intentional of dealing with spacenoids in good faith.
>>14070111
Already did. Hell if Operation British successfully hit its target rather than wipe out the land of shitposters the war would have been over.
>>14070122
I was wondering when someone would make that claim. Either way, you get to have fun with me for the entire day unless you know what to do with AdBlock.
>>14070138
Attempts at sabotage, the desperation by the opposition is now visual.
But again, all people do is side step the question of how would you neutralize all of the enemy aligned Sides, (Including their population and resources) from entering the war without expending massive amount of manpower and resources of your own? Still waiting for that central point to be addressed.
>>14070138
Which doesn't prove that it's objective fact, set in stone or whatever other claim you want to make.
>>14069697
I agree.
Infact even the sides with Zeon should have been dropped to for a complete victory.
They should have known that by taking this side of war they should be always ready to die for their nation on a drop.
Hence, a military drop of all sides would had ensured destruction of all life on earth,thus making goal of Zeon much faster and easy to achieve.
Crying warcrimes or total disregard of life don't weight because it's war of independence.
It is also tactically and strategically a brillaint method in war.
After that everyone's soul would fuse and form a new life on earth.
>>14070158
You didn't prove it's a fact though. You gave your reasons as to why you think it's the best tactic. That isn't the same thing. That, in fact, is the very subjective view you decried.
>>14070159
It is objective when the goal is to create new life on earth after soul orgy in afterlife.
>>14070164
Again, to claim it's not the best means there is an alternative. Which is up to you to provide.
Again, you refuse to do it and unfairly try to put the burden of proof on me as a means of shirking your duty.
So, again. How would you neutralize all of the enemy aligned Sides, (Including their population and resources) from entering the war without expending massive amount of manpower and resources of your own?
>>14070000
Check em
>>14070177
>>14070179
It's not objective no matter the result. Nor am I claiming it is or isn't the best, only that it's not objective and that you have to prove it as such. Which you can't. Because it being good is a subjective view. And it isn't set in stone like you claimed.
>>14070179
>How would you neutralize all of the enemy aligned Sides, (Including their population and resources) from entering the war without expending massive amount of manpower and resources of your own?
This arguments fails the moment you realize they didn't neutralized Side 6 which remained neutral throughout the war yet Zeon didn't made an attempt to occupy and at it's best all it could send a team for espoinage operation when they had the info that Federation is developing Gundam Alex in a apparently demilitarized neutral colony.
Few moment before their defeat they finally decide to violate Antarctic Treaty and try to nuke Side 6.If they were really keen to do that,they should have done that before.
It shows thee even Zeon military itself wasn't keen for a colony drop.It was genocidal maniac Gihren's plan who in his life never left his cozy Side 3 and fight on hell that is called battlefield.
No wonder under his command Zeon made many tactical errors when it came to actually go and fight in a totally different environment.
And let me remind you that Zeon had upper hand in Space battle till that point and they could have easily controlled those colonies for their own purpose like recruitment or factory and storage for ammunation plus they could easily appeased the sides to their sides , giving them more recruits but no they had to earn contempt of those sides and result was they lost talented recruits like Shiro amada and Io to federation.
Considering how low they were on man power ,instead of winning more they literally threw that away at the moment when they had control of strategic points in space.
Perhaps your thinking is based on those shitty sci fi who portray space battle as navel battles.
Space battle is entirely different ball game when ti comes to warefare,son. More habitable points you hold,the better.
>actually defending Zeon
The act of attacking fellow spacenoids while claiming to fight for them is hypocritical and pretty much the beginning of all the things people don't like about Zeon.
Its like if America invaded the middle east in the name of freedom and established a dictatorship there while still claiming to fight for freedom.
You want independence? Then the act of the Federation cutting off their shipment to the colony is basically that. There is no fucking reason for a country to send shipments to another independent country if they are not in a trade treaty or its not aid.
They could show that they are indeed ready and prepared for independence, and negotiated for the shipments to be resumed, but no, they decide they should go for war.
They simply said that they want independence, but they want the Federation to babysit them. They want to walk all over the Federation(who paid for the construction of those colonies in the first place) without giving anything in return, no treaties, no anything. Why should the Federation entertain these jokers? Their demands are more fitting of terrorists than a nation.
Why should these people get to be in charge of things on Earth? They are a bunch of crazy people who wants to rule the world, they warped another man's words and misled a colony's worth of people for their own purpose.
They fight in the name of independence and spacenoid freedom, but all they did says the opposite.
>>14070197
But..but that Tomino lied in Ideon?
>>14070234
This basically.
>>14070000
>Zabi's have to be killed by the very beast they are
Char's character for revenge in his own words told through Quads
>>14069858
>expecting to be better off after having blood of innocents in their hands
If we're being honest, that's all of human civilization's movements from the first time we invented sapience. And a fair bit before that.
Victory always means someone gets it in the ass until they bleed and die.
>>14069881
Why would you want to die for a space hippy with silly ideas?
Newtypes are jerks.
>>14069905
>launching of the entire "war for independence" when Zeon nearly had it in the bag already,
You do realize that the Federation was enacting a trade embargo to turn Side 3 into Space Cuba, right?
Side 6 and the Riah Republic was able to be technically independent because it still maintained relations with the Federation, though ostensibly it was probably a vassal state rather than truly independent.
It's one thing to cut off aid to the colonies if you were the Federation, it's another to say, "we're no longer buying your shit so you starve into submission."
Really, both sides are assholes in this case, but this is more to say it's understandable why the Earth invasion occurred to begin with.
>>14070275
That seems more like Zeon's fault than the Federation's, to me. Don't declare yourself independent if you don't have the means to support yourself independently. Blame Zeon Zum Deikun, not the Federation.
>>14070265
>Why would you want to die for a space hippy with silly ideas?
Yes. I fap to Ketsui's plot summary on wikipedia.
That sshould give you the ida.
>>14070313
>Don't declare yourself independent if you don't have the means to support yourself independently.
Yep.
Its to be noted that some countries were forced into independence despite not exactly being ready for it though.
hitler was right
>>14070233
You'e being intellectually dishonest by claiming that since Side 6 already declared independence before the outbreak of the war. It was only after Side 6 violated the treaty by developing the Gundam did Zeon start sending the Nukes to destroy Side 6. Also a fun tidbit, by throwing away their neutrality, they no longer were following the Antarctic Treaty, meaning Zeon was legally allowed to nuke then since by forsaking their neutrality, they were dropping out of the treaty..
As for your pie in the sky thinking of occupying enemy aligned Sides will not end disastrously. All you need to do is look at F91where the Crossbone Vanguard rolls into Frontier and specifically announces they are not harming any civilians, while at the same time the Federation has no problem with collateral damage against the local population and taking children as human shields. What happens? You have a portion of the population form a resistance to fight the vanguard. And this was a single colony. Can you imagine the manpower and logistics necessary to occupy not just one colony, but an entire Side? And not just one side, but 4? The truth is, people don't like to be occupied even if you are liberating them. Happens in gundam, happens in real life.
Also look at the Origin timeline, the civilian population of the enemy aligned Sides were preparing to fight the Zeon forces if they entered the colonies, so even if Zeon entered the colonies while announcing, 'we are not here to harm you, we are here to liberate you' They would have been shot for their troubles. Also the divide in Loum between the Feddie and Zeon factions where the Federation side outright started murdering the Zeon supporters and forcing them to flee.
You have this naive idealism that the local populations would be perfectly fine with their colony being defacto occupied even if it was to liberate them. You just create a resistance and any weapons you store there can and will be used against you.
>>14070644
> intellectually dishonest
Stop misusing that phrase by using it to mean dishonest instead of the actual definition which is much different.
>>14070234
They're spacenoid that opted to side with the Federation. Those are called collaborators in every other era. Collaborators are treated worse than the enemy itself.
Also, by logic, Zeon had no choice but to fight due to Federation's continued aggressive actions against them both military and economically.
>without giving anything in return, no treaties, no anything
Jodi, why do you have to lie and lie so blatantly? Shame on you.
>>14070656
Nyet
>>14070657
So you admit you're just going by your own definition of the word (using it to basically be a smart/obscure way of saying "liar") and not the actual, accepted definition everyone else has been using for a long time?
>>14070663
Well are you going to prove the meat of my argument wrong, or quibble on irrelevant information Alex? Because the argument about Side 6 got blown out worst than Sydney.
>>14070644
>You'e being intellectually dishonest by claiming that since Side 6 already declared independence before the outbreak of the war.
Nothing stopping Zeon to Gas or Capture the colony .
>It was only after Side 6 violated the treaty by developing the Gundam did Zeon start sending the Nukes to destroy Side 6.
Zeon long alone knew it.They wouldn't send a fucking team to attempt metal gear on it.
And nukes were planned out of desperation when the team failed.
It's you who is being dishonest here.
>As for your pie in the sky thinking of occupying enemy aligned Sides will not end disastrously. All you need to do is look at F91where the Crossbone Vanguard rolls into Frontier and specifically announces they are not harming any civilians, while at the same time the Federation has no problem with collateral damage against the local population and taking children as human shields. What happens? You have a portion of the population form a resistance to fight the vanguard.
You are bringing F91 in this debate as if the conditions then and now are same?
You very well remember that the just like Zeon failed to destroy the V Project Prototype in Side 7, and similarly F91 was struck on the colonies near Cosomo Babylonia .Plus it was quite a small scale conflict compared to the likes of OYW. And resistance was doing Jack-shit and things would gone murder bots had of-so-coincidence super prototype Gundam piloted by Seabrook wasn't there.
>And this was a single colony. Can you imagine the manpower and logistics necessary to occupy not just one colony, but an entire Side? And not just one side, but 4? The truth is, people don't like to be occupied even if you are liberating them. Happens in gundam, happens in real life.
In space no one can hear your scream.All you have to do is to threaten them by cutting the life support or taking over the life support of the colony.Fuck all you need is one or two MS and point gun at them (1/2)
>>14070665
I'm not making an argument, I'm saying you're using a phrase wrong. Which you are. You're using intellectual dishonesty to mean dishonest, making the intellectual part redundant and doesn't fit the accepted definition everyone else works from.
>>14070644
>Happens in gundam, happens in real life
This is your problem.You want to sound like know it all but have no idea that Colonies were in space and how it changes the priority and the way warfare could be conducted.
>Also look at the Origin timeline, the civilian population of the enemy aligned Sides were preparing to fight the Zeon forces if they entered the colonies, so even if Zeon entered the colonies while announcing, 'we are not here to harm you, we are here to liberate you' They would have been shot for their troubles. Also the divide in Loum between the Feddie and Zeon factions where the Federation side outright started murdering the Zeon supporters and forcing them to flee.
You have this naive idealism that the local populations would be perfectly fine with their colony being defacto occupied even if it was to liberate them. You just create a resistance and any weapons you store there can and will be used against you.
As if Logistics in space would be that easy ,especially when Zeon had gained Space Superiority. Zeon could have easily slaughtered billions on earth like SS forces in Belarus did by burning down villages after villages,but tthey knew the extent of manslaughter they could do.
The way you make it sound justified is off handed when ti was clearly stated that it was meant to destroy Jaburo GHQ as swiftly as possible. For that they choose near orbit colonies,gassed them and dropped them. Cima end up gassing her colony and became a disgust within the ranks of Zeon,and no wonder she betrayed them in Operation Stardust
You are trying to shove simpleist argumements in the veil of wall of texts and repeating some phrases thinking you know better but it shows how much give attention to detail- Zilch
Are we being trolled by /pol/?
>>14070698
Considering the argument sounds like someone read Turner Diary,Yes.
>>14070698
Nah, just Black_Knight doing his usual shit.
>>14070676
>>14070689
Actually the fact that they weren't Federation aligned proves that Zeon was only attacking Federation targets, otherwise they would have been indiscriminate in their attacks. Operation Rubicon was to steal the Gundam which would give Zeon access to all the latest tech the Federation and Side 6 was developing but give Zeon massive leverage over Side 6 since it would be a huge incident. The nuking of colony would the
Absolutely F91 is perfect parallel of a force counter to the Federation liberating a Federation controlled colony, going out of their way to say they won't harm, or oppress the citizens of the colony and the citizens still rebelling against said liberators. You can poo-poo it all you want, but guess what? It existed and it's solid proof. Yes threatening them is good idea, if you want to lose their support entirely and have them just start openly rebelling you from the beginning. If that's the case, you're better off blowing a giant hole in the colony rather than just trying subjugate them through threat of force, are you even thinking of the ramifications of your ideas and how a rational person would react to them? Your problem is you think people in the colonies would react differently. No one likes to be occupied, period. Say we live your pie in the sky world and Zeon didn't destroy and colonies, they took Luna II and wiped out all the Feddie Space fleets, you don't think every single colony would have a resistance cell, and you can hand wave the logistics watching over at least 10 billion people while at the same time stopping Federation collaborators?
The One Week Battle was THE shock and awe campaign. Wipe out any chance that the Federation could rally an attack force near Side 3 by destroying enemy aligned Sides and the destruction of their GHQ.
>>14070708
That's Mr. Pope to you.
>>14070679
So you don't have an actual counter-argument and just choose to nit pick. I accept your surrender.
>>14070724
So you're not going to admit you're using the phrase wrong but instead try to divert attention? Okay then.
>>14069697
Daily reminder that all the ideology that Zeon spews is a giant load of bunk because of these actions whether they were militarily correct or not.
>>14069742
>which brought more death to both sides.
To his own side, he saved every single human left, because if Zeon is fucking nuts enough to drop colonies multiple times just to do it right then no one is safe under their rule.
>>14070234
>You want independence? Then the act of the Federation cutting off their shipment to the colony is basically that. There is no fucking reason for a country to send shipments to another independent country if they are not in a trade treaty or its not aid.
>They could show that they are indeed ready and prepared for independence, and negotiated for the shipments to be resumed, but no, they decide they should go for war.
I agree with this. You cannot be fully independent and also completely dependent on someone else to live, that's not only linguistically wrong it's literally wrong. Zeon wanted independence, and didn't realize that it implied that the Feds - who could get resources from places that aren't Side 3 - had no reason to do anything with them, so they got assblasted and went to war.
>>14070358
Then they could have asked for help from the Federation in staying with them. And if Zeon attacked, they would be the aggressors, and the Feds would have been in the right to stop them.
>>14070735
I didn't use it wrong and you still can't refute anything I said, so you choose to quibble on inconsequential things.
That's not being intellectually dishonest, that's just being lazy.
>>14070744
At least we have a Fed-fag at least give tacit approval to the tactics used in the One Week Battle.
Meanwhile you still had a constant state of war when the Federation was in power that extended for at least 80 years. Pretty sure Zeon would have a better track record then the Feddies.
>>14070756
You used intellectual dishonesty to mean dishonesty. The intellectual part is redundant. The actual meaning is "Intellectual dishonesty is a failure to apply standards of rational evaluation that one is aware of, usually in a self-serving fashion. If one judges others more critically than oneself, that is intellectually dishonest." - which is in no way what you used it to mean. I'm not and haven't been trying to refute anything, you're just trying to squirm out of admitting you used the word wrong.
>>14070763
What's this? A wall of text that has NOTHING to do with the validity of the tactics that Zeon employed during the One Week Battle in a futile attempt to derail the thread?
Just say you can't refute me and I won't think to much less of you.
>>14070774
What's this? A refusal to admit that you were wrong and an attempt to try and divert attention away from it? Just say you were wrong.
>>14070780
But I'm not wrong and you're now admitting that you want to derail the thread, which makes you a shit poster. That case is only made stronger in how your coping parts of my post. Shame on you. Regardless I've fed a troll like you who is devoted to trying to knock this thread off topic long enough and won't satisfy your intellectual dishonesty any longer.
I await the next person who would claim the destruction of enemy aligned Sides was the wrong thing and whatever reasoning behind that.
>>14070724
Zeon had the info.All they needed was to blackmail Side 6 with it and use it as leverage but they choose to steal or sabotage it. Which turned out to be waste of able and experienced men when they could had them diplomatically cornored them. Remeber it was a neutral colony and exposing that it self would been caused a big enouugh scandal .
Did I denied any non-exisence of resitance in Cosmo Babylonia ? No.was it big enough to cause enough trouble ? No. Did Federation give a damm initially ? No. You are comparng a man was going to slaughter entire humanity to those who wanted to rule over humannity's remenant ? There is no comparison to that.
And yes,in the bottled "pie in the sky" you could easily blockade colonies more effectively and even in real life it has worked very well. German Uboat sinking of cargo did crippled UK during the world war. A blockade would had easily made sides to submit.Worked perfectly well fo Titans most of the time.Infact they were winning until Paptimus fucked them over.
The argument here is not what it was and it's purpose. Your initial argument that it was completely legimate and it was necessary to bring swift end of war only sounds good if you are a hypocrite who in the name freeing spacenoids just want to commit wanton destruction which pretty much turned out to be very ineffective in long run.
And thise very thread proved that it is very debatable considering the intention on Gihren's part plus how it turned out to be in long run.
Whether Zeon declaring war was justified was not is and entirely different topic and complex cosidering fluff's mood changing in times.
If a ultraright revivial happens again ,Zeon will become hero on the brink of ww3.
But then ww3 itself would be about basicresources to survive rahter than some ambitious nationalist goal
>>14070791
Then I'm a shitposter, see if I give a fuck. How does what you said at the start of >>14070644
match the accepted definition given in >>14070763? It just means dishonest, not intellectual dishonesty. Which means either knowingly or unknowingly you misused the word. Either way, you did it. And keep trying to say you didn't.
>>14069927
>starting new years
I wonder how a Zeon new years party would go down.
>>14069697
Daily reminder that defeating Zeon was the only way to end this war as after Zeon made it a war of attrition.
What I gather from this thread is that Zeon is at fault for getting super uppity. Literally every war in UC could have been avoided if it weren't for the Zabis.
>>14069697
>Daily reminder that the tactics Zeon employed during the the One Week Battle were completely legitimate and the complete destruction of enemy aligned Sides was necessary to bring a swift end of to the war.
>swift end
Had EF surrendered within one month at antarctica ?Still criticized since it didn't completed it onjective and end up killing civillains with it's drop on sydney
We know that EF was on the verge of surrender and was about to grand Zeon independace until Revil revealed in his famous speech that Zeon's exhausted. As per Origin,Zabi themselves had a hand letting him escape so that the war reach earth.
Since the plan actually was for a prolonged war of attrition, No.
It was never justified.
Both Zabis,Char,Axis,AEUG and the Federation are shit
Now Jamitov & Paptimus they were the real good guys.
>>14069697
I wouldn't call them legitimate when Zeon still lost the war. Generally victors get to make the moral judgement, and since the Feddies won without having to drop colonies or gassing entire countries to death to halt the rampaging Zeon hoards, that really gives them the absolute moral highground to sneer from. Pearl Harbor was a legitimate tactical operation too, it didn't change the fact it was still fucking retarded and the hugely shortsighted act of a bunch of contemptible genocidal lunatics. You know, like Zeon.
Oh, and gassing neutral or Federation aligned sides only served to isolate and alienate whatever support Zeon had on both earth and space. Any alliances they made after that were based on desperate capitulation to avoid total slaughter, and not out of anything remotely resembling respect or admiration. They lost whatever legitimacy they held before as the bannerman for Spacenoid independence and they drove the more ambiguous parties straight towards the Federation.
>>14071232
This. I'd also like to highlight that the 'Evil, Oppressive and Immoral' Federation, once they'd regained the strategic upper hand before Star One, didn't contemplate abrogating the Antarctic Treaty and going full Blue Cosmos on Side 3, despite the fact that, according to the logic of the Zeon apologists in this thread, it would have been 'completely legitimate and necessary to bring a swift end to the war'. Conclusively showing that despite being largely venal, corrupt and cowardly assholes, the Federation leadership are STILL better human beings than the Zabis and their bootlicking lackeys.
>>14069697
uh hello black knight just because your trip is off doesn't mean we don't know it's you
>>14071401
How do I enable forced anonymity again? Kind of considering it after this thread.
>>14071411
This is defacto forced anonymity since your name changes after every post.
>>14071428
Well that's why this has made me curious about it. It's presumably just for April's Fools though, so I want to know how to do it permanently, since I can't recall how or see it in the settings.
>>14071448
Or, you could not act like a total faggot and just deal with it.
>>14070797
You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole.
There was still plausible deniability that Side 6 wasn't housing the Gundam. The images they got were only of the containers, not the Gundam. It was only after Cyclops Team infiltrated Side 6 that they got conformation of Alex existence and by then, the Kämpfer was already relocated into Side 6 so their hand was forced. Also by exposing the connection you're more likely to force their hand in openly supporting the Federation as opposed to having an actual card to play since they still have the Gundam in their possession. If the Gundam was successfully stolen, the Federation would lose faith in Side 6 since they would be the ones blamed for the theft, and it would put Zeon in a much more favorable terms. And you choose to lie again, this time about the resistance against the Crossbone Vanguard. That resistance was able to kill the leader of the Vanguard. That's kinda a big thing if cell could pull that off. Imagine if there were hundreds of cells, which is what would happen if Zeon didn't destroy all the colonies. Now you're failing see the difference between land and space. A blockage is much easier to maintain on the sea because it's only 1 dimension, you have all 3 dimensions to contend with for a space blockade. Also that might work against one colony, but not an entire side, let alone 4 of them while you're still fighting the Federation. And if you opted to stay in space, you'd need to then patrol Earth to keep the Federation from sending more ships up. Zeon simply wouldn't have enough ships to blockade every enemy side and the Earth. Also people keep bringing up this misrepresentation of Zeon killing spacenoids in the name of freedom. Those spacenoids SUPPORTED THE FEDERATION. You aren't going to free a slave loyal to their master.
>>14070803
>I'm a shitposter
Glad we found something to agree on. You should stop otherwise you might get banned if the mod finds your posts on his weekly patrol.
>>14071869
I thought you were done replying to me since I'm dishonest (somehow)?
>>14071875
You made an one honest point in admitting you're a shitposter. I believe you can be rehabilitated into being an honest poster one day. It would be rude not to recognize that.
>>14071894
So you're not done replying to me? Okay then. You're still wrong about the meaning of intellectual dishonesty and using it to mean nothing but dishonesty.
>>14071339
Maybe because Zeon still had a major foothold in space and the moment the Federation started slinging nukes at Side 3, Zeon would go Space Revolutionary army on their asses and start throwing every giant rock and piece of colony wreckage at the earth. Let alone use their own nuke stockpile.
You know, it makes you wonder why kinetic weaponry was never explored in Gundam, just the Colony Drop was that, but something more precises.
>>14071869
At this point this is baseless speculation on both side and you are avoiding to address the fact that the whole operation british didn't put swift end to war plus Zabi's themselves had a hand to extend it for their benefit in order to pro long the war and conquer earth.
All the "swift end" justification ends there and we know how that war racked up casualities which as the end caused downfall of Zeon.
Just like attack other anon pointed out, Attacking Pearl Harbour was tactically right decision but in long term it ruined Japan.
And there is your answer - We very well know Tomino based the show on the Pacific theatre of War.
By forcing their hand they could easily capture since Side 6 had no military to speak off what so ever pus they were near to their Graneda base around that time.
Zeon at that time still had faith that they will win the war at the decisive battle of A bawa aqu since Federation at that point was throwing everything they had for it. Had Colony laser was able to be fired for two consequtuve time,Zeon wold had won. Hence the capture was attempted since they were going to deal with side 6 anyway.No one had thought that war was going to end in Federation's favour with Gihren being dead.It came as a shock even to Cecilia in plot to assassin Gihren Zabi.If Gihren had satyed alive and wasn't offed by Kycillia , war would had gone more bloody than it was.
As you see,Gihren was never into "swift end" but more prolonged war for his dream of "ruling over a few" in order to consolidate his rule over the vast resourses of Earth. 4chan Posters like us would had definitely perished in concentration camps after the war.
Keep insisting that Cosmo Babylonia war was similar to OYW but anyone who is not here for trolling knows that it was different in terms of scale and how initially the response was. I am tred keep repating same thing over and over and you keep repeating over and over
(1/2)
>>14071869
(2/2)
Blockade in space is much easier in space because it is literally putting a cap on a bottle .
For a bottle neck design of entry and exit point in colony , it is easy to keep them tight.
Now let your "lies".
Operation British happens- dosen't fall on Jaburo GHQ, fall on Sydney .
Militart still intact on both side, Zeon beatsthe shit out of Federation in Loum , General Revil is captured , Fedeartion is forced to sign surrender in Anatarctic until General Revil escapes (and Origin hints Zabis had hand since now we know that Gihren's Genocidal plan to reduce population cap and to conquer earth because he was military otaku and wanted to be remembered as mlitary genius).
Considering that EF's forces were pretty much intact yet they were beaten badly in Loum and considering Zeon's upper hand in Technology like MS, EF could had been easily brought to negotiation table.
But you keep to ignoring that just to justify the colony drop,which basically mean you are one of those Zeon dindu nuffin poster.
And there is no need for ships when it is easy to blockade bottle in space.
All they needed was a blitzkerg which eventually proved effective in conventional battles and there was need to colony drop when swift end wasn't the thing Zeon under Gihren wasn't amiming for it's place.
And one aspecct you forget about Gundam Unicorn is how it also shows that the war prettymuch ensured EF never give any further autoniomy to spacenoids since they won the war without going for any shit mass murder shit zeon does and subjegates the space noids with more apapthy and lefts them to the mercy of the titans.Colony drop in operation british becames the reason for federation ensuring more tight grip on space colonies.
Both side is at it's faults.
>>14071869
(3/2)
>Those spacenoids SUPPORTED THE FEDERATION. You aren't going to free a slave loyal to their master.
There are better ways to deal with them after winning the war ,specially when you were winning the war either way despite having the colony failling to do actual damage to EF forces.
The liar is you who keeps hammering the "swift end" when it was none.
>>14072405
>Blockade in space is much easier in space because it is literally putting a cap on a bottle .
>For a bottle neck design of entry and exit point in colony , it is easy to keep them tight.
This. It's sickeningly easy to blockade a colony. Just destroy or heavily damage the spaceport and the colony is rendered helpless and impotent. No need for mass genocide. What's the Federation garrison going to do, get out on the hull in their spacesuits and take potshots at Zeon ships in their assault rifles?
>>14070657
>had no choice but to fight due to Federation's continued aggressive actions against them both military and economically.
By being less aggressive than the Federation(Declaring war is pretty damn fucking aggressive), they could have set themselves up as the bully victim and potentially get the other colonies to join their cause and support them. Make the Federation lose support from the colonies.
Nope, Zeon decides they should go to war with Federation, and attacked the other colonies first, giving them a perfectly good reason("Why should we work with the people that claimed to be fighting for us and attacked us?" or simply "Why should we work with people that attacked us?") to do some serious support work like building Gundams for the Federation.
Attacking the colonies invalidated their "fighting for spacenoids" cause. Its like the terrorists claiming to be fighting for Islam and going around killing muslims. Nobody supports that kind of bullshit regardless of whether its militarily justified or not.
Their "independence" cause? It became fucking irrelevant the moment they got carried away and tried to take over the world.
What they said and what they did don't fucking match up.
>>14072414
I'd like to add to this. You know who also had to also occupy a large and potentially hostile colonial population? None other than the guys that Zeon is based on, Imperial Japan. You know what they did? Not exterminare every man woman and child in the areas they occupied. No, they did the sensible thing and at least made the pretense of living up to their 'liberating the oppressed colonies' propaganda and recruited local collaborators. I'm mainly referring to Southeast Asia here but they were actually successful in getting a large number of the occupied populace to if not support them, then remain apathetic enough not to actively resist them.
So yeah, Imperial Japan was in some ways actually objectively Less Evil than Zeon.
>>14069742
>Only because Revil's prolonging of the war which brought more death to both sides.
>Doing your fucking job is amoral.
>>14072366
Everything you just wrote about Side 6 was baseless speculation. By the time of War in the Pocket the battle had already shifted into space and Solomon was the target (See the comment Bernie's unnamed buddy made.) Zeon wouldn't have time or the resources to send a force to seize and occupy Side 6 with the Federation now breathing down their neck. Also take into account there was already a Federation garrison there. If Side 6 violated the treaty, it would be more efficient just to nuke them and remove the threat all together. Also for a person trying to deal in facts, you sure are making a lot of random hypotheticals, the Solar Ray burned out because it was fired prematurely, and you're mixing up the Timelines because the Federation was still fielding overwhelming force in the Movie/TV one. it was only in Origin's that their forces suffered extreme damage and they went for broke charging A Baoa Qu head on. You are also mixing up the timelines injecting Origin's Gihren into the Movie/TV one. You also fail to take into the account the original Antarctic Treaty was an unconditional surrender of the Federation. Zeon would have ended the war if it weren't for Revil's meddling.
Also you can keep trying to use ad hominems to ignore the Crossbone Vanguard comparsion. But you can't ignore the facts that it was still an occupying force, and even after being wholly abandoned by the Federation and being treated fairly by the Vangaurd, the local population choose to rebel.
You and >>14072441 know nothing about how Space Colonies are designed. Yes, there is always the main dock and spaceport that you can destroy (And will only make the denizens hate you more, which is why no one bothers to try it.) but that doesn't account for all the sub docks and maintenance entrances. Did you think Char's team knocked on the front door when they infiltrated Side 7? Or Quatro when he infiltrated Green Noa? Again, waste manpower and resources unless you want blow up more things.
Obviously the concept of smuggling and terrorism is completely lost on you two if you think a colony is 'just a bottle'
As for the facts.
If Operation British was a success, the war would have been over right then and there and there wouldn't even be a Battle of Loum. That in itself shows the soundness of the operation. Also while mobile suits tipped the scales, in ship to ship combat, Zeon was outmatched. Also the Federation still had several fleets AFTER the battle of Loum that were stationed at Luna II (The Feddies' Space GHQ), the reason Zeon never attacked Luna II head on was because an attack would be seen coming and would more than likely cause heavily causalities among the Zeon attackers. Causalities Zeon couldn't afford. Your telling of events is clearly wrong since it would be unfathomable for Zeon not to use their superior technology at the time as part of the negotiation. Furthermore you keep having this delusion that Zeon could win the war through conventional arms and fail to realize the vast difference in numbers between the Feddie and Zeon forces. So you've managed to mix up multiple timelines to create this narrative that through hard work and guile, Zeon could occupy every enemy aligned Side and force the Federation to capitulate without a Colony Drop. Again, it's a simple issue of numbers that you conveniently ignore because your house of lies collapses when that's applied. So keep creating this pretzel of logic by combining different versions of the same character, but at the very least, if you're going to use it as evidence, stick to one version only. And before you go 'B-b-b-b-but Loum!', minor evidence to show how violent the Federation aligned sides were. Also in the TV timeline, the Federation had no intention of giving Spacenoids autonomy to begin with since they'd lose their power. The One Year War is a moot point for that.
>>14072740
>If Operation British was a success
That's just it though zeek. It fucking wasn't. You can't claim the moral high ground "I was just trying to end the war" when you fucking started it in the first place.
What was the point of fighting at Aboa Q huh? You knew you had lost, but you fought on anyway. Hypocrites.
>>14072747
>This desperate
Like everything else, you don't know until you try. If anything Zeon should have hurled more colonies at the earth to ensure victory instead of just stopping after one. (Loum, according to MS IGLOO was a faint to lure some of the Federation Fleets hiding at Luna II into a decisive battle.) Fun fact, based on that. It was the Federation's fault that Loum was a destroyed since the battle started well away from the Sides, as a result we can easily conclude that the Feddies fled TOWARDS Loum as a means to use them as human shields for their retreat which resulted in the destruction of the Side.
>This gutless
So the moment any time in your life when the odds and numbers are against you, you just give up? Well, I shouldn't be shocked. But Feddie apologists like yourself always look for the easy way out.
Americans wouldn't have been seen as the good guys if they tried to sink the British Isles like a ship using every non-patriot on the continent (aka most of the damn country at the time) as makeshift primitive human torpedoes. Fuck off Zeeks, you have the right to die for your cause but when you kill civilians to do it then you've given up any moral high ground.
>>14072753
How can you say that Zeon lured the Federation toward side 5 yet not blame Zeon for having a hand in side 5's destruction by choosing side 5 as a battlefield?
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php?year=0079
U.C. 0079.01.15
>11:20 The Principality fleet begins its attack on Side 5. Principality forces begin attaching nuclear pulse engines to Side 5's Colony 11.
>* Source: Entertainment Bible 39.
>22:14 The Federation's 1st Combined Fleet, commanded by General Revil, engages the Principality fleet.
>* Source: Entertainment Bible 39. Entertainment Bible 39 claims that this fleet departed from Luna II at 09:00 the previous day in response to the movements of the enemy fleet.
>22:40 Dozle Zabi orders the Principality forces to abandon the attachment of nuclear pulse engines to the colony and concentrate on attacking the Federation fleet.
>* Source: Entertainment Bible 39.
Zeon arrived at Side 5 first and started attaching engines and 11 hours later the Federation fleet arrives to fight them. The battle did not start away from the Sides, and the Federation can't use the colonies as shields if Zeon was already there in the first place. Dozle and Revil both explicitly start fighting within side 5 airspace.
>>14072448
Zeon was attempting to make inroads with the other sides for the past 20 years after they declared independence. Every side except for 6 sided with the Federation. f you knew the facts, which you clearly don't, you know you're just spouting more pie in the sky bunk.
So Zeon declares war against the Federation and any Side that is clearly siding with the Federation. Seeing as there were several skirmishes before the full out break of hostilities, the Enemy aligned Sides had ample time to say they were going to be neutral if full war broke out, but non one did. Ergo they were all fair targets to attack. Because again, it boils down to numbers and Zeon didn't have the mainpower to occupy every enemy Side and risk the disaster of it falling back into Federation hands where they now have a staging ground to attack Side 3, along with all the resources and manpower of that Side.
Also, seeing you still insist on repeating the "fighting for spacenoids". Let's look at another real life conflict that can be used for a PROPER analogy. (Take notes.) In the Revolutionary War. You had those who sought independence from Great Britain, the Patriots and those who wanted to stay with Great Britain, the Loyalists. When the Patriots declared independence, did they do it in the name of the loyalists? Hell no, the loyalists were considered the enemy and the Patriots had no problem killing them. Fun fact, in the South alone during the Revolutionary War, there were hundreds of battles fought just between Americans. Got to remember to give no quarter to a collaborator.
>>14072753
Do you have a source for the Federation using Loum as shields? As far as I know only the Legend of the Universal Century Heroes manga claims that and it's non-canon.
>>14072765
This is actually a good point. American planes bombed German and Japanese civilian cities as targets during WWII. It makes them assholes though.
>>14072772
RETCONNED
O
N
N
E
D
>>14072772
I expect you to use something you're very uncomfortable with, logic. If Zeon never intended to target Loum. The Federation's Fleet's flight path had to skim by Loum, and the start of the battle was well away from the Colonies. Using those facts based on the footage presented. How would the Side get destroyed? It might not be as underhanded as White Wolf manga, but it still had to have happened.
>>14072776
Not as a starting tactic. If the colonies were emptied safely then you can justify it as a sort of Pearl Harbor against a military base but the Allies only bombed civilian populations after the factories and bases were basically all destroyed. They didn't start by killing civilians (whether they're aligned with the Federation or not, if they're unarmed then they're civilians) in order to GET to Pearl Harbor. I didn't see patriots burning a town of loyalist sympathizers (with only a tiny armory to speak of, even if they could have been later been supplied by/enlisted with the British Federation) with no survivors just because they were loyalists. They fought men who were armed and prepared to lay down their lives.
>>14072765
I thought the colonies didn't have actual representation and were governed by Federation officials. How does that make the civilians a valid target if they don't have a voice to be able to say they don't wish to be attacked and want to remain neutral?
>>14072787
>If Zeon never intended to target Loum. The Federation's Fleet's flight path had to skim by Loum
That's a weird "if" that you're implying. As the audience, we already know Zeon is headed toward Side 5.
The Federation was observing Zeon's fleet movements. In space, there are only so many routes to take that are efficient and aren't a waste of propellant and other supplies. It's very easy to spot hundreds of ships moving together on a trajectory that only takes them to a certain lagrange point. The different lagrange points are too far away from each other and take too long in terms of travel time (several days' transit time) to mistake a fleet heading for a "wrong" lagrange point.
>and the start of the battle was well away from the Colonies.
Those screencaps you posted still say Zeon gathered its forces at side 5. Igloo still doesn't show the Federation using colonies as shields, by the way. Also, MS Igloo doesn't depict any use of nuclear weapons which makes it contradictory to all other established reports of the battle of Loum.
So what are you trying to say by posting screenshots of MS Igloo? Are you saying it's correct, or incorrect? It neither shows colonies being destroyed yet doesn't show the Federation using colonies as shields.
>>14072787
Or it could have happened like it did in the Origin where Side 5 was untouched except for Zeon blowing up their docks and then the 'Brave, Noble Zeon Feeedom Fighters' exterminating the defenceless population after the battle. Neither are canon but I have no doubt that which one you'll pick.
>>14072789
>if the colonies were emptied safely
Where are you going to displace 6-10 billion people who hate you? Again, you deal with the enemy industry and bases. But you still have the problem with enemy manpower. You need to eliminate all three and you don't have the resources or manpower of your own to occupy them based on the timetable and objective. Regardless, you can't separate the military, potential military and the civilians and you only have so much time and manpower. You can't move them, and you can't leave them there and baby sit them. The only logical choice is scorched Earth. Because the Side is no longer a threat, can be utilized by the Federation in any way and none of the population can rally against you. Also you don't have to waste your own resources and manpower trying to baby sit a population that will find any reason to rebel against you. Also you can't compare the destruction of a colony with the burning of a town because it's so much easier to survive one as opposed to the other. Mainly because the latter has a lot more free space to flee. But the Patriots did burn down Norfolk.
>>14072798
>'Who are you going to believe me, or your lying eyes?'
I decided to sum up your post for you. Since you ignored 'cleverly placed a trap by leaking false information' Or the fact you are now being willfully ignorant in not being able to connect A to B to C to D to E when we aren't shown D, but there is only one possible outcome for it.
>>14072791
They still had an assembly or parliament and, you know, those 20 years where they could have opted to at least show solidarity with Side 3 with a non binding resolution as opposed to just siding the Federation.
>>14072806
Well when Bandai recognizes the Origin timeline as the canon telling of events over the movie versions, you can use that as evidence. Until then, I'm going to stick with the facts. Also they didn't look defenseless with their weapons when they were gunning down the Pro-Zeon faction.
Also for further proof, this was where the Feddie Fleet was right before the Battle of Loum started.
They created a buffer between the Zeon Fleet and the Colony based on the false information that Zeon was planning to attack Loum. I assume even someone as obtuse as you can realize what happened when the Feddie forces were routed and the retreat was ordered.
>>14072787
Meant the recton comment for >>14072761
>>14072821
>Where are you going to displace 6-10 billion people who hate you?
I'm not saying they had another option to win the war, I'm saying you can't claim you have any just cause in doing so. Accept that Zeon did wrong by it. They wouldn't have hated Zeon if Zeon weren't colony-gassing genocidal maniacs. Your war of independence was not worth so many civilian lives.
>Also you can't compare the destruction of a colony with the burning of a town because it's so much easier to survive one as opposed to the other.
>>with no survivors
>But the Patriots did burn down Norfolk.
After loyalists were gone, Brits fired upon the city with their navy. Patriots, who were now the sole occupants of the city, decided to help the fires along their way. Not even comparable.
>>14069697
>swift end of to the war
>quickly goes into stalemate
>eff gets their shit together and wins
>>14072841
The point is, might makes right
![[OZC]MS IGLOO - The Hidden One Year War E01 'The Vanishing Serpent of Loum' [v2].mkv_snapshot_16.54_[2016.04.02_01.34.51].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/X4L1ZzC.jpg "[OZC]MS IGLOO - The Hidden One Year War E01 'The Vanishing Serpent of Loum' [v2].mkv_snapshot_16.54_[2016.04.02_01.34.51].jpg")
>>14072821
>I decided to sum up your post for you. Since you ignored 'cleverly placed a trap by leaking false information' Or the fact you are now being willfully ignorant in not being able to connect A to B to C to D to E when we aren't shown D, but there is only one possible outcome for it.
You're making giant leaps in logic. You can't use MS Igloo as proof of Federation ships using colonies as shields when no such thing was stated in MS Igloo. MS Igloo doesn't show any Feddy ships running away or Zakus firing nuclear warheads from their bazookas, so you're going to use MS Igloo's -lack- of detailed information to paint your own headcanon as being what happened?
Question: How do we know Zeon didn't use side 5 as shields when Zeon has far more to gain from the destruction of the Federation-aligned Side 5?
>They still had an assembly or parliament
That's silly, an assembly/parliament member representing a colony or side has no official capacity to be making statements or declarations of neutrality when the colonies are still under the thumb of the Federation.
>you know, those 20 years where they could have opted to at least show solidarity with Side 3 with a non binding resolution as opposed to just siding the Federation.
Why do they need to show solidarity just to be neutral? You're making way too many assumptions about colonial autonomy to think the sides can decide anything for themselves.
>>14072829
You're assuming the Zeon fleet must be offscreen to the far right, that doesn't explain all of the Federation fleet pointing their gun nozzles to their -left- instead of their right.
>>14072821
>Neither are canon but I'll pick the irrelevant side story that sucks Zeon's dick over the one being animated by Sunrise written ny a member of the original seties staff
Like clockwork
>>14072829
>This random screenshot totally supports my headcanon and if you don't agree with your an idiot
This is low even for you Black_Knight.
And I like how you started this entire thread to say that its ok for Zeon to exterminate Federation aligned Sides but the won't even entertain the suggestion that Zeon did the same at Side 5 and need to craft some headcanon that blames the Evil Feddies instead. At least try to be consistent.
>>14072847
you know he's fucked up when he says colony drops, nukes, and gassings are valid tactics but won't own up to zeon even having a tiny shred of the blame of side 5's destruction when zeon chose to lure the federation to side 5 (either by leaking information or by dozle actually trying to attach engines to a colony that still had people inside)
the fucker thinks only the federation is to blame for the results of operation british as well, if the second half of axis actually fell on earth he'd say it was the federation's fault for trying to blow up axis like some kind of idiotic "feddies touched it last, it must be their fault" logic
Is this whole thread just one regard arguing with himself?
>>14069697
>>14072837
>>14072846
>>14072847
It's a just cause since the objective was to end the war swiftly since Zeon would not be able to win a prolonged campaign. As I said before, it's the original shock and awe campaign. Even with Operation British's only success was wiping out the shitposting capital of the World. It brought the Federation to the table where Zeon had extremely strong terms. if Operation British did destroy Jaburo, Revil could have made his speech and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference. Actions that would not endure the loyalists to the Patriots cause? Clearly comparable. No leap of logic. That version of the battle of Loum with indiscriminate nuke throwing was retconned, and it's not head cannon when it clearly happened. And it's not headcannon when it's simple logic. I'm presenting solid evidence that disrupts your headcannon that it was Zeon's fault that Loum was destroyed so you're going to fight it tooth and nail even when I have animated evidence on my side. This is really quite comical when the straws you're grasping to boil down to right and left. When if the Federation was between Loum and the Zeon Fleet, pointing their guns toward the Zeon fleet (to the left) was their only option.
You again make the assumption that just because the Federation won't make an action have power behind, doesn't make an action have meaning. Even a non binding resolution saying that a Side stands by Side 3 would mean a lot. As opposed to siding with the Federation, as they weren't neutral.
>It's not canon because I say so.
I didn't know MS IGLOO was disavowed, you're going to have to show me that quote after you're finished using your hemorrhoid cream. I'm just pointing out the shades of gray that made Gundam famous. I'm sorry it clashes with your black and white morality. And I'm causing your butthurt to flare up again. Yes, 'random', the only animated version depicting Loum outside of the Origin timeline clearly is 'random'.
>>14072868
Fuck off, Black_Knight, you're just as autistic as Claw Shrimpy
Stop responding to this Neo Nazi dicksuck, holy hell.
>>14072861
Nah, just me proving a point that you can force anonymity with endlessly changing names. And people will still attached an identity to a specific idea. Plus I was curious how Feddie apologists would try to frame the One Week Battle. So I brought it up.
>>14070122
>>14070708
>>14071401
>>14072847
Proof that anonymity is bunk when you boil down to it.
>>14072870
>>14072871
Stop shitposting, all my posts are well within the rules of the board.
>>14072868
Alright Black_Knight, we indulged you for April Fools. Now you've reverted to your classic "quote everyone at once, disregard 90% of their arguments, repost the same shit from the beginning of the argument, and start calling everybody else desperate". It's time to stop posting.
>>14072872
>shitposting
And your tacit support of Nazism isn't?
Fuck off.
>>14072872
>stop shitposting
What're you gonna do about it, autist?
>>14072872
People don't associate Zeeks and Zeek apologists to your name, it's the posting style, the mental gymnastics of, the extent to which you'll ensure Zeon did NOTHING wrong and the Feddies did EVERYTHING wrong, and the voice behind your posts.
Genocide-happy Nazis don't deserve independence. Therefore Zeon has no just cause for war. Therefore every drop of blood in the war is on Zeon.
>>14072882
>>14072876
You sound mildy upset. Have Trump gif.
>>14072877
Nothing, just going to be smugly satisfied that you don't have anything of merit to post.
>>14072875
I only disregard irreverent information, where it can be anything up to 90% of the post. I'm still waiting to see some Gold Medal tier mental gymnastics for you to discredit MS IGLOO screenshots FROM A SHOWThat wasn't retconned like ZZ. Also, what if I like to merge posts by the same person as a matter of being efficient. Just like Zeon was when they destroyed the enemy aligned Sides. Who'd have thought I'd practice what I argue for?
Also it's not like you have ample time to filter me if you loath me so much. But no, you don't and you're compelled to reply to me. At best it shows you have no self control, and just like Battle of Loum, you blame me for everything that happens when in reality, it your fault. At worst, you enjoy getting indignant at my posts.
>>14069697
Hide and ignore black knight threads
If you must respond, at least sage
>>14072888
Can you still not tell anonymous posters apart? You do know that inability to pick up on social cues is a sign of autism, right?
>>14072888
Well, as I ruminate on the fact that I have asked you directly whether or not you support Nazism in the past and the question has very noticeably been dodged, I guess I know who you're supporting in the upcoming election which only makes the comparison more accurate.
>>14072888
Lol what an autist
Fuck off.
>>14072868
>And it's not headcannon when it's simple logic.
Just because MS Igloo didn't give a full narrative of the Battle of Loum doesn't give your own version of events (which only a non-canon manga supports) any more strength than the idea of Zeon destroying Side 5 themselves. You are filling in the empty space that MS Igloo did not address with your own ideas. That is not evidence. In what possible way would it be more logical for the Federation to destroy side 5 when it is far more likely that Zeon destroyed it?
>I'm presenting solid evidence that disrupts your headcannon that it was Zeon's fault that Loum was destroyed so you're going to fight it tooth and nail even when I have animated evidence on my side.
Your evidence doesn't mention anything about what happened to Side 5. That is not how evidence works. Inserting your own logic where there is a lack of evidence does not constitute evidence.
Zeon chose to hold the battle next to side 5 rather than moving further away from side 5 airspace. The fact that in your version of events the Federation fell back to the colonies as cover just makes it worse because that assumes Zeon kept on attacking instead of ending hostilities. Why is that not applicable to side 5 being destroyed can be partly blamed on Zeon because Zeon decided to have a fleet battle there?
>This is really quite comical when the straws you're grasping to boil down to right and left. When if the Federation was between Loum and the Zeon Fleet, pointing their guns toward the Zeon fleet (to the left) was their only option.
Not that guy, but if you bothered to notice anything, there are no colonies in the background of any wide angle shots of the battle. The "screenshot evidence" you posted purporting the Federation fleet to be taking a defensive stance in between the Zeon fleet and side 5 only shows a line of points of light.
>I didn't know MS IGLOO was disavowed
Says the guy who disavows Unicorn?
>>14072888
Ur a faget
>>14072872
>Nah, just me proving a point that you can force anonymity with endlessly changing names. And people will still attached an identity to a specific idea.
IRONY
R
O
N
Y
>>14072900
Reminder that according to Black_Knight, non-movie = non-canon. Unless he wants to take that back of course.
>>14072907
Come to think of it, wouldn't that completely discredit anything that doesn't have a film version, including Igloo?
![[OZC]MS IGLOO - The Hidden One Year War E01 'The Vanishing Serpent of Loum' [v2].mkv_snapshot_14.39_[2016.04.02_02.35.36].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ECiNYIb.jpg "[OZC]MS IGLOO - The Hidden One Year War E01 'The Vanishing Serpent of Loum' [v2].mkv_snapshot_14.39_[2016.04.02_02.35.36].jpg")
>>14072868
>When if the Federation was between Loum and the Zeon Fleet, pointing their guns toward the Zeon fleet (to the left) was their only option.
The Federation fleet is travelling with Side 5 to their left side. Then they swivel their guns to fire toward the left. That means the Federation fleet cannot be in between Side 5 and the Zeon fleet.
>>14072908
Yes, but he'll defend what he has said anyway. But don't worry, anything he doesn't like is still non-canon and therefore disregardable. Unless he needs it in a later argument.
>>14072891
>Making assumptions on who I'm voting for based a gif.
Alright, I've humored the off topic shitposting enough. Back on topic.
>>14072900
I'm merely giving the most reasonable explaination as to what occurred afterwards. Loum started as a ship to ship battle with the Colonies on one side, the Zeon fleet on the other and the Federation in the Middle. We know the Federation lost the battle and Zeon was not going to target Loum since the operation of doing a second Operation British was a lie to lure the Federation fleet out. So if Zeon had no intention of destroy Loum, what''s the most reasonable explanation into how it was destroyed? Hardly headcanon when you use simple logic. Loum was still well outside the range of fire. It was only after did the battle grow chaotic did the Federation move towards Loum. Or by your headcannon the Federation was wiped out and Zeon destroyed Loum for fun. (Not true, but just wanted you to read how absurd your idea was.) That means the battle was even further way from the Side 5 and the Federation forces really had to make an effort to flee into the direction of the colonies which feeds the 'They used them has shields' narrative. Good job helping me out. Part of the TV timeline. Can't be helped.
>>14072907
>>14072908
>>14072911
When you have a producer say only film versions, ala movies count when you have conflicting versions of the same event. Who am I to argue with that?
>>14072909
>Ships can't turn around for dramatic effect.
>>14072909
On the flip side, if we go by what you're saying, it was Zeon that was defending Loum and when the Federation was attacking the Zeon fleet, their stray shots destroyed the colonies.
Not sure you want to walk down THAT path.
>>14069697
I think I have finally witnessed autism in this thread.
>>14072912
Ur a faget
>>14072912
>Ships can't turn around for dramatic effect
>These ships facing this one way proves I'm right!
>But they're not.
>WHOOPS DOESN'T COUNT I'M STILL RIGHT.
>>14072915
Ur a faget
>>14072912
Black Knight I'm curious. Do you have a job? I'm not asking in like an accusatory way, I'm just genuinely curious as to what sort of job you work.
>>14072925
Considering I've seen his long winded rants poop up at any given hour of they day, I'm guessing not.
>>14072929
>poop up
Shit son, what am I doing?
>>14072912
>>Making assumptions on who I'm voting for based a gif.
He seems to hit all your sweet spots with his policies, though, so really I wouldn't be surprised.
Of course, Trump is not currently advocating the wholesale slaughter of innocent people to achieve goals because it's convenient, but I'm sure he'll get to that in time.
>>14072932
>Trump is not currently advocating the wholesale slaughter of innocent people to achieve goals because it's convenient, but I'm sure he'll get to that in time.
Well he is running for the office of United States president. It's basically part of the job description now.
>>14072919
>Following your line of thinking, the Federation fleet was firing on Loum.
>Give a reasonable explanation as to how the Federation could not look like total monsters throughout the battle.
>NOPE, UR WRONG.
Alright, I'm perfectly find with the Federation not caring about Loum and destroying it from the beginning. Nice to see that 'morality' of yours.
>>14072738
Topkek
Please don't bring the time line argument here when Japan still keeps making OYW side story #896.
As I said before, you are much indulged into hyphothesis as you accuse me of it.
The one who started using ad homein is you with words like intellectually dishonest and liar.
You are not creating storng case in Cosmo babylonia war by keep repeating same thing over and over again.
If you think Zeon dropping colony is legimate, then what ever happened to them and later spacenoids were justified since one who is going to kill must be ready to be killed.
You are posting same argument while running in a circle.
As per colony design, yeah as if it is not possible to rig motion senstive bombs in order to create a temporary lockdown over entire colony.
At one point you say that since they were federation citizen they were asked for being killed by Zeon for colony drop and on the other hand you deeply care about citizen discontempt ?
Some fucked up priority you got there.
>>14072935
Who are you quoting?
>>14072935
Ur a faget
>>14072912
>I'm merely giving the most reasonable explaination as to what occurred afterwards.
Okay, let's try analyzing it.
>Loum started as a ship to ship battle with the Colonies on one side, the Zeon fleet on the other and the Federation in the Middle.
Actually, we don't know that. There are no establishing shots to provide a frame of reference. >>14072829 shows us a stream of ships, but it isn't apparent where the Zeon fleet is in relation to this. I'm assuming that because we see rocket engine lights, we're looking at the fleet from a rear angle.
>We know the Federation lost the battle
True.
>Zeon was not going to target Loum since the operation of doing a second Operation British was a lie to lure the Federation fleet out.
Would they leave Side 5 intact? Zeon attacked Sides 1, 2, and 4 with the intention of depriving the Federation of staging grounds and manpower like you said, so why leave side 5 alone?
>So if Zeon had no intention of destroy Loum, what''s the most reasonable explanation into how it was destroyed? Hardly headcanon when you use simple logic.
I'm not calling it headcanon because there's no logic, I'm calling it headcanon because there's no official statement to back up what you say. If you could come up with a "reasonable explanation" for Amuro Ray's place of origin (some say North America's west coast, others say farther south near Mexico), I'm still going to call it headcanon because we aren't given an exact location or explanation.
>Loum was still well outside the range of fire.
Okay, I'm willing to assume that. We didn't see any colonies nearby in MS Igloo's depiction of the fleets exchanging fire.
>It was only after did the battle grow chaotic did the Federation move towards Loum.
Mmm.. MS Igloo does not depict this.
>>14072933
Fair enough.
And he did say, with disturbing confidence, that he was absolutely sure he could gun someone down in the middle of a street and not lose any supporters, so I guess there's that.
Why does it even matter whether or was a good military move, anyways? The deaths of millions of innocents certainly wasn't justifiable on a moral level, which is part of the show's message that Zeon under the Zabis wasn't simply looking for independence but rather total conquering of the enemy through inhumane and genocidal methods.
>>14072952
you will told that it is moral faggottry in a pipe in sky made out of pretzel
![[OZC]MS IGLOO - The Hidden One Year War E01 'The Vanishing Serpent of Loum' [v2].mkv_snapshot_16.38_[2016.04.02_02.59.00].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/4LhQwIt.jpg "[OZC]MS IGLOO - The Hidden One Year War E01 'The Vanishing Serpent of Loum' [v2].mkv_snapshot_16.38_[2016.04.02_02.59.00].jpg")
>>14072912
>Or by your headcannon the Federation was wiped out and Zeon destroyed Loum for fun. (Not true, but just wanted you to read how absurd your idea was.)
You're twisting my words for no reason other than to make me appear absurd. You do realize that Zeon could destroy the populations of Side 5 for the same reason they destroyed Sides 1, 2, and 4, right?
>That means the battle was even further way from the Side 5 and the Federation forces really had to make an effort to flee into the direction of the colonies which feeds the 'They used them has shields' narrative.
Now you're just saying "The Federation went did this because it conveniently ties into my version of events". If the battle got chaotic enough that the Feddies were routed, how would there be an organized escape plan coordinated through dense minovsky jamming to move toward side 5 to use them as shields? Would the fleet not simply scatter in various directions?
>Ships can't turn around for dramatic effect.
Actually, only the Zeon fleet is shown to be turning. Every shot of the Feddy fleet has them traveling in a straight line. Now you're inventing fleet movements that weren't shown on screen just to suit your narrative.
>Tomino outright says the Zeon faction was designed to represent a misguided, imperialistic society and aren't to be idolized
>Zeonfags like Black_Knight still insist Zeon being "right" is the one true "canon"
![[OZC]MS IGLOO - The Hidden One Year War E01 'The Vanishing Serpent of Loum' [v2].mkv_snapshot_16.58_[2016.04.02_03.15.37].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/1K01WjV.jpg "[OZC]MS IGLOO - The Hidden One Year War E01 'The Vanishing Serpent of Loum' [v2].mkv_snapshot_16.58_[2016.04.02_03.15.37].jpg")
>>14072915
It's okay, according to your evidence there are no colonies anywhere nearby in the Federation's line of fire.
>>14072915
how does that not mean zeon could have fired stray shots to hit the colonies?
>>14072936
All my points are based on facts. From the incident at Side 6, to the Crossbone Vanguard to the One Week Battle. Of course I'll repeat it over and over again, since it's the truth. War is a messy business.
>>14072944
>>14072956
>>14072980
That Fleet would be Federation fleet since they were coming from Loum while Zeon's fleet was coming the opposite way. if they interjected at any other angle a conflict would have happened there. As for the exact reason why Side 5 wasn't targeted during the initial attacks? We don't know since we never got that information. I could list of hypotheticals, but you seem to hate that. So anything that is not shown with indisputable proof is headcannon to you, even if it had to have happened, if an explanation as to how it exactly happened isn't given, ANY explanation is headcannon to you. Realistically, it wasn't in the budget to show where the colonies were in relation to the actual battle. In universe. Only rational in universe explanation is that the battle originally took place far enough for the colonies to where they weren't visible. MS IGLOO only depecited the start of the battle, as you can see the Federation lines weren't broken yet and they started their disorderly retreat back to Luna II. Regardless, Side 5 was not a target like Side 1, 2, and 4 since if it were, it would be wiped out along with the others in the onset of the war, but it was destroyed in the battle. I'm merely pointing out that Loum had to be destroyed and from the information presented, Zeon didn't have a cause to destroy it on their own. Then how would you explain the inconsistency of the direction of the Feddie ships? Also you see a line of sight shot from the Zeon side with no colonies in the background. How would you explain that?
>>14069697
> Is it really the idea, or ther person that a matters?
Idea is what Person justifies ,who is what actually matter at the end.
>This is not debatable.
Damm right. In war all matter victory or defeat.
They loss at end and their generation suffer to the point where they try to secure a out dated tablet,I will say it was worth it.
>>14072995
>All my points are based on facts. From the incident at Side 6, to the Crossbone Vanguard to the One Week Battle. Of course I'll repeat it over and over again, since it's the truth. War is a messy business.
All your points is based on cherry picking and presenting it in way that suits your line of thinking instead of dealing with truth.
Keep repeating until you actually post some sound arguments.
>>14073003
Just because I refuse to entertain your flawed counter-arguments doesn't invalid my positions. But when you actually do have something of merit to post, do come back.
>You aren't going to free a slave loyal to their master.
Yes, they're only fit for extermination, just like all the other untermenschen.
>>14073009
>Just because I refuse to entertain your flawed counter-arguments doesn't invalid my positions. But when you actually do have something of merit to post, do come back.
Just because you are adamant that dosen't make you point automatically valid .
But when you actually do seriously give a second glance and realize your faults,do come back
>>14073013
Already looked it over when I posted them. The fact that Zeon's hands were tied in regard to Side 6, that coming into a colony claiming to be a liberator and the objective of the colony drop were all true. Sorry, but the big lie doesn't work here.
>>14069697
I think this is the first time I've seen Public-class missile boats look so majestic.
>>14073019
Zeon wasn't helpless in regard to colony near to their one of their main base,that it was bloody campaign waged on the pretense of liberation and independace when Zeon went as far killing their fellow spacenoids just to reach their goal of total domination insread of some noble cause for which Zeon's soldier died for some Megalomaniac's ambition.
Sorry,but Zeon under Zabi were no better and your whitewashing it will not work no matter what.
But then we live in world where it took humanity reached the current convention barely 60 years ago,I don't think your line of thinking will change with that attitutde like that of a zealot
>>14073024
You're talking to someone so thoroughly retarded and clueless about how most wars have actually been fought that if we were to adopt his rationale in reality, every single conflict in our history would have been a campaign of annihilation because every single citizen in the belligerent nations is a 'slave' too far gone to reason with and thus they must be put to the sword.
There's a word for that, Black_Knight, and although it's not 'war', I'm fairly sure you do know what it is, being very well acquainted with flags that are red, white and black.
>>14073029
Crusade?
>>14072995
>All my points are based on facts.
Notice how he says that around the same time he realized he was proven wrong about the direction of the fleets and gave up on that point.
>>14069697
Daily reminder that ZZ is canon and Moon Moon makes sense in the setting.
That is not anime.
>>14072912
>When you have a producer say only film versions
This has been debunked REPEATEDLY.
The rule, as translated by UltimateMark, is that only animated material is official.
Tomino himself stated that there is seven film canon and series canon and neither has been elevated above the other.
1. You're just being pedantic about the meaning of "firumu"
2. "official" != canon
>>14073029
>Black_Knight
What a disgrace to the based English knight from the history
>>14073055
BUT THAT'S WRONG BECAUSE I SAY SO!!
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
>>14073055
>The rule, as translated by UltimateMark, is that only animated material is official.
Where did he state that out of interest? Cause I'm pretty sure Sunrise have never actually said that.
>>14070313
This is something people always gloss over when defending Zeon, why should the EF keep sending supplies to a independent colony? If they wanted the supplies why try go independent? The only faggots who think like this are the ones who want t o start a goddamn dictatorship
Zeon Gundam: The Gundam That True Fans Want
In the universal century Zeon Char Zeon, the coolest Zeon in all of Zeon, was being oppressed by the big bad evil meanie federation. GMs and Jegans which are lame and stupid were oppressing the zeons so he got in the Zeon Gundam, which was like the RX-78 but spiky and bright red. Zeon Char Zeon then unsheathed his zeon made beam sword which was made out of newtype minovsky particles that were folded over a million times and cut through the jegans. "Nothing personal kid" he said as he teleported behind a jegan with his newtype powers and cut him into a million pieces. And then Captain Bright came but because he's cool he's a zeon now and he took Zeon Char Zeon onto his new ship called The Glory of Zeon where he gave Zeon Char Zeon the Zeon Gundam Cross Buster Double XVI Booster Gold with TWO beams swords folded over a billion times each. With his new weapon he went down to earth and started killing all the GMs Jegans and Federations with his Zeon Gundam Cross Buster Double XVI Booster Gold and his army of Zakus which cut through all the other GMs and Jegans like they were made out of tinfoil. Zeon Char Zeon then killed the entire Federation and destroyed the Earth so the environment could be free from earthnoids. Zeon Char Zeon was relaxing after his victory when suddenly a bunch of stupid lame pirate guys with midget mobile suits showed up. "Who the fuck are you losers?" Zeon Char Zeon said. "We're the Crossbone Vanguard! Will you be our friends?" But Zeon Char Zeon laughed at them cause they ere losers and said "You wish you were as cool as Zeon!" and killed them. Then a bunch of retarded guys with even smaller mobile suits that had bug eyes and beam helicopters were gonna ask if they could be friends too but the Zanscare was even lamer than the crossbone losers so Zeon Char Zeon killed them before they could even ask. Then Zeon ruled over everything forever. The End.
>>14073183
You know, the sad thing is that I can actually imagine Sunrise animating this once Tomino finally dies.
>>14073118
>>14070313
But Oneill Cyliinders *are* self-sufficient. They process their own atmosphere, they grow their own food (those little round bits on the rings at the end of the colony are agricultural pods).
The only thing they really needed to import was Helium3 from the Jupiter Fleet which remained neutral through the whole thing, meaning the EF's supposed embargo had no effect on Side 3's ability to buy H3 for their Minovsky reactors.
And Zeon clearly had enough material resources to build an army of giant robots, a fleet of battleships, and a succession of questionably viable mobile armors a long time after the EF broke them off.
>>14070138
>Civilians are legimate target since being armless dosen't mean you are not soldier.
That's actually objectively wrong via Law of War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war
>>14069697
If the leader was Zeon Deikun, not Zabi, he would insist on capturing colonies one by one until there would be no colony controlled by Feds.
Also the Apsalus project (or any other kind of Jaburo cannon) would get greater funding even before the war.
>>14073586
I think he was sarcastic ,anon.
>>14073019
>The fact that Zeon's hands were tied in regard to Side 6
Well,they could have
1-Send the strike teeam to confirm
2-return the team cause you need them at A bawa aqu
3-nuke the colony
Why risk your men stealing it?Or wasting single day to set up bomb and sabotage it?
It would been more swift and no one would had got any wind.
And even simply destorying it is better than more a risky gundam jack operation,if nuisance of Antarctic treaty is taken in account.
If the Federation fleet is largely ruined and in tatters, how do they have the coordination and firepower to destroy an entire side? Sides consist of -hundreds- of colony cylinders and Side 5 is supposed to have been -entirely destroyed-, except for the sole Texas colony cylinder left behind.
Think about it.. Zeon gained the upper hand in the middle of the battle and suffered fewer ship losses after sending in their Zakus to engage the Federation fleet in a close range swarm. Only the Zeon fleet would be left with enough ships to carry out the annihilation of side 5 in a practical amount of time. Remember, the Federation fleet has been wrecked by the Zeon fleet, only has a fraction of their ships left, and most importantly has lost their fleet commander. They are in no shape to be able to blow up hundreds of colony cylinders in any short amount of time or by accident or purposely, which mind you, are far more massive than a handful of ships. Are they going to be using every last colony as a shield? That would imply that Zeon stayed within firing range of the remaining EF fleet for the entire time and intentionally had a hand in the destruction of the colonies, unless you're going to assume something unrealistic like Zeon staying there but not firing, and just letting EF move from colony to colony hundreds of times while firing which still means they're permitting the entire side to be destroyed.
>>14072962
>Tomino outright says the Zeon faction was designed to represent a misguided, imperialistic society and aren't to be idolized
I'd love a citation on that. I don't doubt that it's true, but it'd be nice to have a source all the same.
>Zeonfags like Black_Knight still insist Zeon being "right" is the one true "canon"
I love the blatant hypocrisy of Black_Knight endlessly claiming that ANT renders ZZ non canon because of his interpretation of Tomino's intent, but when it comes to Tomino's obvious intent that Zeon was in the wrong (by having them commit blatantly evil acts and more importantly having them lose in every one of his UC Gundam works) he'll go full 'ZEON NEVER EVER DID ANYTHING WRONG' and give a dissertation on why it's ok to commit genocide as long as you're Space Nazis.
>>14073458
The problem as we saw in countless anime and manga about the OYW is that Zeon funnels all its money to making bigger and crazier mobile weapons, their own people who they are supposed to help get fuck all and stay on perpetual poverty, hell look at Unicorn when Banan goes to the Zeek asteroid, everyone there is completely fucked while Full Frontal and his fuckbois all walk around with top of the line MS while everyone has to scavenge to make do
>>14073597
He is a Zeek apologist faggot, I very much doubt that
Hey everyone, I'm Black_Knight, a huge autistic fag who starts shitty threads and is retarded enough to believe killing large amounts of civilians is justifiable in war time!
Seig Zeon!
>>14070138
>autism
>>14073751
Rest of the comment sounds like work of troll
>Similarly killing sovereign of state on his way to peace talk is also right because he was acting against the sovereign of state.
It was necessary for attaining the resolve of war by getting killed by getting shot in head through laser.It was the only way war continued to Zeon's goal of defeating by killing it's vast manpower.
>>14073024
This post is nothing but baseless speculation and ignores the fact that Zeon eliminated spacenoids who sided with the enemy.
>>14073055
>Only the stuff by Marky-Kun counts
I'm just going to laugh. You have debunked nothing.
>>14073458
Food and life support, and what happens if there's a failure in one of those systems? Are they going to magically produce new stuff out of the vacuum of space? Or every other resource that is necessary to be prosperous outside of materials mined on asteroids? Using a real world example, any country under an international embargo is doing just fine because their land can be used to grow food and remain self sufficient.
>>14073586
>The Book of Deuteronomy as a legitimate source.
Are you trying to summon /pol/?
Just to note that I got other things on my plate at the moment and will get to the other posts in the due time. So don't go getting jelous that I didn't give your specific posts attention, unless it's bait, then I'm just ignoring it.
>>14078102
If there's a failure in one of those systems it'd almost certainly be on one colony only. Which is a non-issue, since all the Sides bar 6 have multiple sides. So there'd be lots of redundancy. Thise. Along with Helium-3 are the only essential resources, anything else they can manufacture. Or import from Jupiter if they're really hurting for their version of mobile phones, or whatever.
Also, saying that Wiki is a Pol magnet (is it, first I knew) doesn't address the fact civilians aren't considered a legitimate target. Only diverts it.
>>14078340
Also, if you don't like Wikipedia for some reason, there are plenty of sites online dictates the rules of warfare. Such as: http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/civilian-immunity/
Laws of war or war crimes have tried to restrict or forbid civilian targeting for hundreds of years and people have looked down on it as unjust and unconscionable for longer.
>>14078102
Let me elaborate it
1-Send the recon team to confirm
2-return the team cause you need them at A bawa aqu
3.Nuke side 6 or just destroy the gundam.
Why risk your men stealing it?Or wasting single day to set up bomb and sabotage it?
It would been more swift and no one would had got any wind.
And even simply destorying it is better than more a risky gundam jack operation,if nuisance of Antarctic treaty is taken in account.
No need to legitimize those lnatic zeeks who started to crack up crazy giant ass mobile armors when they could have mass produced more gelgoogs.
But then there is no point talking to Gihren-Zealots like you. Considering the guy with that name did,who am I to convince an armchair adhoc military expert?
reminder that this is what black knight is defending
>>14078102
>Only the stuff by Marky-Kun counts
>I'm just going to laugh
Translator who works for Sunrise, on Gundam, since the last century
VS
random namefag on /m/
WHO WILL SURVIVE?
Seriously, if you don't know why UltimateMark's word trumps yours, you know even less about Gundam than I thought.
>>14078395
>yfw Black_Knight will never respond to this post because he would have to either concede that he's a neonazi or that zeon was in the wrong
>>14078395
I honestly don't know how people can defend Zeon when one of its founders himself says that there is something very fucking wrong with how they are currently acting
>>14079120
Black_Knight has in the past actually defended Gihren's 'Let's kill off half of humanity to cull the population' plan in >>14069889. He really is that much of a despicable little shit.
>>14079214
Yeah, the worst is that Degwin was horrified with what was happening and while he wanted to rule he didn't want to become the willfull monster that Ghiren became, I really wonder how he even came to be so fucking warped becuase none of the rest of the family were that bad
>>14079233
A lust for power, presumably. Which his father may have stoked by trying to groom Gihren as his eldest. Gihren may have wanted to impress him initially and just had that, along with a little competitiveness and some encouragement grow out of hand in to patricide because he was going to lose something he thought he deserved.
Keep in mind that growing up Gihren would have seen his father doing politics and power plays, internalizing it all and wanting to impress him by surpassing him.
>>14079270
He was a military otaku too and most probably liked the aesthetics and discipline of Nazi Germany
>>14080045
Except see >>14078395
He literally didn't know who Hitler was
>>14080074
if you watched the episode he says it with a smug, condescending, sarcastic tone
you expect the supreme forces commander with an IQ of 240 to not have studied post-classical global politics and war history?
>>14069881
>They murdered Deikun for their greed and ambition.
The Zabi's knew what needed to be done to bring Deikun's vision to reality. Blood had to be spilled to push humanity to the stars and evolve. Furthermore Deikun needed to be martyred for the people to rally around.
>>14080176
>people don't believe in the cause so much that they have to kill their leader to gain support
kek
>>14080084
This.We still study tactics of Alexander.
Even Napoleon did.
>>14080176
>implying they gave damm to his original vision instead of using it to cement their own power while eliminating Deikun faction and family.
>>14078102
>Are you trying to summon /pol/?
You're already here.
>>14080216
You think Deikun would have been willing to do what it took to bring it into reality? You can write books and makes speeches all day, but to actually carry through with it is something different.
>>14080570
Prove that he couldn't have done it better.
You can't.
>Civilians are legitimate targets
What kind of drugs is he on?
Is he gonna shoot a pilot on a parachute who ejected from his burning jet as well?
Is he gonna shoot Red Cross volunteers as well because they are treating the enemy's wounded?
There's a reason we have rules even for war. There are shit that you never do because its fucking despicable. If you do that kind of things, you're the worst kind of human being, even criminals are better than you(And even prisoners are known for treating child molesters/abusers like shit in prison).
>>14080600
>Is he gonna shoot Red Cross volunteers as well because they are treating the enemy's wounded?
Neo Zeon forces did that during colony drop operation on dublin in 1st Neo Zeon War.
>>14080629
they were also taking out bridges to try and prevent civilians leaving for maximum casualties
>>14073609
>>14073697
>>14073740
A strike team? What do you think team Bernie was originally was? Also they didn't know the location of the Gundam or if it was there at all since their only lead was the cargo container. Also the Feddie base the Alex was stored at was designed to look like an industrial park so there was no obvious target to attack. Also adding to the fact that Side 6 was already expelling Zeon forces from the colony, so an open attack would only further increase the divide between Zeon and Side 6. Stealing it means you get all the latest technology that the Federation was developing. Things like magnetic coating, a 360 cockpit, engines. The Alex is arguably the most powerful suit that was developed during the One Year War. It would be foolish not to try and capture based on its strategic value. Due to the fact we don't know exactly when the order to retreat was called, but there still had to be a number of ships remaining since if there was nothing left, a last stand would have been ordered. Second, you fail to take into account that the colonies were destroyed in the crossfire. Meaning in their retreat, the Feddies used the colonies as shields to try to give them cover, meanwhile the Zeon forces continued to fire on them as they gave chase. The result is blown up colonies. Before you say that's Zeon's fault, that wouldn't have happened if the Feddies didn't try to use the colonies as shields.
>Confusing what should be considered the canon events that occurred within the series to director's intent on how he wants to depict a person or group.
Ha.
Same thing as before.
>>14081891
Why does how the director wants to present a group matter less than how YOU want them to be portrayed?
>>14081891
>A strike team? What do you think team Bernie was originally was?
Strike team
> Also they didn't know the location of the Gundam or if it was there at all since their only lead was the cargo container. Also the Feddie base the Alex was stored at was designed to look like an industrial park so there was no obvious target to attack.
Hence a strike team to confirm it's location first.
Which is what happens in the anime.Fortunately that Zeekfag kid end up helping them to find the passage into it.
> Also adding to the fact that Side 6 was already expelling Zeon forces from the colony, so an open attack would only further increase the divide between Zeon and Side 6.
i wonder where the logic of dealing with citizen slave to federation and swift strike when Federation could easilt use as base after annexing it during last stages of war goes ?
Conveniently forgotten !
(1/2)
>>14082037
>inb4 they were neutral before the war.
More reasons for a political diplomatic scandal.
It makes it legitimate target.
>Stealing it means you get all the latest technology that the Federation was developing. Things like magnetic coating, a 360 cockpit, engines. The Alex is arguably the most powerful suit that was developed during the One Year War. It would be foolish not to try and capture based on its strategic value. Due to the fact we don't know exactly when the order to retreat was called, but there still had to be a number of ships remaining since if there was nothing left, a last stand would have been ordered.
It also means losing your experienced men when you are low on resources and sending teenagers into death cylinders to the fray.
It could had been attempted before the battle of oddessa but it happenes near the end of war when even they had no time to complete the zeong or even mass produce any of those suits/armors. Remind you that they had pretty much had 7 days to do all that. If you say they didn't know they would loss then no that is not i am pointing out.I am pointing out the big battle that would take place within few days near their homeland aka the side 3. They had no time to replicate those techs in few days for the big war.
Those strategic resourses had no significance to the pressing matter at their hand,battle of a bawa aqu
Heck even prior to battle of luna 2 was a ripe time for a such sophisticated risky operation of gundam jacking.
At that point ,it was easy to focusing on destroying it.
Steeling attempt killed the enitre team leaving green like Bernie .
(2/2)
So now that we have those clips of ZZ in the OP for Unicorn, can we confirm it's canon now?
>>14082381
Unicorn isn't canon either according to Black Knight.
>>14081891
>that wouldn't have happened if the Feddies didn't try to use the colonies as shields.
If the enemy is hiding among civilians, you watch your fire. If you're just gonna fire without watching where your shots are going, you're equally at fault for the deaths of those civilians if they are killed by your shots.
Don't blame the feds when Zeon is also at fault for pulling the fucking trigger when they know very well that they could hit the colonies.
>>14078389
>>14078424
>>14078395
You still have the same problem with not being able to confirm the existence of the Gundam until the base is found. And considering how well its disguised. A Strike Team is only going to be stomping around blindly in the colony and making matters worse. And again, it's worth stealing for the sake of learning what the enemy has developed and reverse engineering their weapons. If a person like you were in charge, the Federation would have never developed mobile suits because you'd just ask 'well why should we bother to capture them when we can just blow them up?' Who says it's me? I'm going with a translation unaffected by human bias. Origin's Gihren did a pretty good take on Degwin's Hitler Comment to the point it only emboldened him and all Degwin could do is murmur that Hitler lost at the end.The funny thing is if it weren't for Char and Kacyillia, Gihren would have won the battle at worst, and turned the tide of the war at best. But that's a another 'what if?' in a separate timeline
>>14088057
>if it weren't for char and kycillia ghiren would have won
if it weren't for ghiren, degwin would have made peace with the federation. instead he killed his father.
even that aside, how do char and kycillia hamper gihren? they're the ones who are building a newtype core which is the only way they could have beaten amuro. they were lacking in manpower and material to keep fighting with zakus and doms.
even if kycillia lives after a boa qu she goes to grenada and holes up while the feds take side 3, or slow siege grenada to death. amuro would have gotten alex and the zekes would have been even more fucked.
how can you possibly be this delusional?
>>14088057
>translation unaffected by human bias
I love this meme.
Reminder that Black_Knight will defend the stance that the movies are the only canon because a Sunrise guy said "the filmed versions/versions on film are official" which he ran through a machine translator and ended up with "the film versions are official". Film = movie and nothing else according to him so the movies are the only canon.
Also this is a Kapool looks like to him.
>>14088122
of course it's a kapool and not a capule anon, are you stupid? it looks slightly different and has a different name
next thing you'll be saying that kamille bidan (protag of zeta gundam) is the same person as camille vidan (protag of A New Translation, which is definitely cannon despite coming 20 years after zeta gundam and retconning everything that came directly after zeta. and the creator saying it was an alternate universe.)
sheesh what moron could think something like that?
>>14088139
>looks slightly different
animation error*
No, I am not joking.
>>14088139
This isn't up for debate btw
Do you think Black Knight actually has any sort of understanding of how Katakana functions?
>>14088057
>I'm going with a translation unaffected by human bias.
It's funny how he keeps harping on this when he has yet to provide any evidence that the original article translation was in any way biased or inaccurate outside of 'Because I say so' and 'Lel, Mark Simmons'.
>>14088360
Mark Simmons is out to get him, anon. He's going to deliver something to Black_Knight that he can't escape without closing his eyes and shutting his ears:facts
it's amazing how he decided to make up an entire narrative about how side 5 gets blown up which no source ever confirms and multiple sources contradict, and it's canon just because he thinks it makes sense to him
>>14088057
>if it weren't for Char and Kacyillia, Gihren would have won the battle at worst, and turned the tide of the war at best
Is this a joke?
>>14088406
don't you know that gihren was tactically commanding each soldier like it was an RTS for best minmaxing and actions per minute?
it's not like there were magic particles preventing easy instant command, communication, and control
kycilia's shitty microing fed kills to the federation and they lost entire lanes
>>14088419
>the part where he comments to Kycilia about how he knows she threw Sasro's game in The Origin
the man is diabolical
>>14069697
>>14088419
>even after being forced out of his room, Space Hitler never lost his NEET skills
>>14088057
>You still have the same problem with not being able to confirm the existence of the Gundam until the base is found.
That's why the recon cum strike team.
They had to locate it first even for the gundamjack plan.
>And considering how well its disguised. A Strike Team is only going to be stomping around blindly in the colony and making matters worse.
And it happened because they tried to steal it.
When matter got out of hand then they attempt to destroy it and result was entire team barring Bernie perished.
> And again, it's worth stealing for the sake of learning what the enemy has developed and reverse engineering their weapons.
I would rather choose to easily sabotage it letting Fed to filed it at A bawa aqu.
There wasn't enough time left to reverse engineer entirely new tech when Zeon wasn't able to comlplete and mass produce it's pending tech.
>If a person like you were in charge, the Federation would have never developed mobile suits because you'd just ask 'well why should we bother to capture them when we can just blow them up?
Here we are talking about Zeon during last days of war and out of no where you federation , an enitrely different faction and scenario here?
Nice strawman there to divert the original argument.
Anyway,I will bite the bait then.If I were in charge of Federation, I would had done the same thing Federation of UC timeline did ,except it would had been attempted much earlier.
>>14088057
>If it is not possible to confirm the presence of cancer dam, still to have found as the base, we had the same problem. And, it impersonates it is how much of a consideration. Strike team will even get worse around stepping blindly colony. And again, it is their weapons either, reverse engineering what is worth stealing for the sake of learning, the enemy had been developed. If people like you was in charge, because you just want to ask, the Federation is not a wonder, "you have not developed a mobile suit, why just when they are it is that allows you to, I I feel to capture what a blow to? "Who do I you have it, I'm going to mean that it is not affected by the human bias? I say. Origin Gihren itself, all of the Degwin Hitler, encouraged him, pretty good take on the tweet was not point to the Hitler of Degwin comments that have lost so the last. Interesting is, if there is nothing of Char and Kacyillia, it is certain of is certain, Gihren becomes the tide of the war in the best condition, it would have won the worst of the fight. Another is "I wonder if you do?", However, it is located in a separate Timeline
>>14088951
You know, loathe as I am to admit it, Black_Knight is right, machine translations aren't biased. They sure as hell aren't accurate, but at least they're not biased.
>>14089075
Except they are biased in that they're always going to pick one translation of a word or phrase over another unless they're programmed to detect specific accompanying words for context.
>>14089079
Ah, guess you're right. So Black_Knight was wrong about that too. So at this point has Black_Knight been right about anything?
>>14089079
which is why the firumu thing is so dumb. The machine translation just picks up the english word without accounting for how it's used in Japanese.
For example, look at the word anime. In Japan, it just refers to animation, not just Japanese animation, but all and any animation. Over here, it solely refers to Japanese animation. If a machine translated the sentence "I love anime" to Japanese, then the original meaning would become "anime ga daisuki". This loses the original intention, because it just takes the word anime, without accounting for how the same word has different meanings across two languages.
>>14088122
I just want to know where they got the "the filmed versions are official" bit, because to the best of my knowledge Sunrise have never said that and the closest you can get is a few Sunrise producers making that statement in an interview where they're specifically talking about the units that are animated being official and game ones (Gihren's Greed units in particular) not being official in comparison. They never said only stuff that's animated is official, only that only animated mobile suits/armors are canon and not ones featured solely in games. In their opinion. The opinion part being important, because it's a personal opinion and not a company wide policy in that case.
>>14088397
What narrative is that for those of us who can't be bothered to keep up?
>>14069697
Daily reminder that true zeon has never been tried.
>>14089216
Yes, that's the source we're discussing. Everybody is aware of the context but nobody want to point it out because it just proves that Black_Knight only learns things second-hand. He doesn't read any links you post.
>>14081891
>the Feddies used the colonies as shields to try to give them cover, meanwhile the Zeon forces continued to fire on them as they gave chase.
So, factoring this into consideration, and taking your interpretation of events at face value despite evidence to the contrary, who's more at fault? The Feds, for ostensibly using colonies as shields, or the Zeeks for being stupid enough to keep firing at them despite them doing that?
I don't remember this show at all. Not even the name. But I feel like I've watched it?
>>14082010
>>14082037
>>14084386
>>14089789
>>14088089
>>14088122
>>14088360
>>14088935
>>14088951
For the love of god stop feeding the troll.
>>14089825
I think it's robotech
>>14073367
That's the idea.
