Why did they try so hard to make him look like a joke?
>>14039979
Because he is?
To make Kira and Lacus look better
>>14039979
Something something Fukuda, something something Morosawa, something something Kira and Lacus
Because if you disagree with the Lacusians you are dumb, evil, and stupid.
>>14039979
Because Fuckuda.
I swear this poor guy went through all the most terrible cliches to make the target audience hate him. They also made sure that he'd die because of his own stupidity.
>>14039979
Because the easiest way to write a detestable character is to make them as pathetic as possible.
It's kind of odd, because if you look at Yuna's first episode, he seems kind of competent and has some idea of what he's talking about, what with the "This country is not your toy!" to Cagaili.
Then after the wedding, they make him into a massive manchild, and they even have him compare leading a fleet to playing video games.
This is a poorly written series.
>>14040195
At least he may or may not of had sex with Cagalli.
>>14040195
>>14040203
We're supposed to cheer for Cagalli when she takes the reins of Orb back from Yuna. However, Yuna is such an incompetent and unlikable dumbass, that they made Cagalli look like a complete imbecile because she didn't just come back sooner.
Had Kira just bombed the wedding, and made himself the King of Orb...
>>14040211
But Cagalli is also an incompetent and unlikable dumbass...
>>14040205
W-Was it consensual?
>>14040252
It kinda says something when even though Shinn is supposed to be wrong for his irrational hatred of ORB, most people agree with him anyways because man. Fuck ORB.
>>14040309
What is really hilarious and sad is how whenever Cagalli tried to spout her stupid ideals Shinn would just remind how what he is now is thanks to her familly fucked up ideals and sshe would just get back to being sad, I don't think she ever managed to win a single argument with him, he just kept shutting her down
>>14040195
Which is sad because Kira spent so long keeping his stupid ass alive only for Yuna to promptly die anyway after just making things worse.
Like it would have been so much better for everyone, Kira and Orb included, if he'd just let Minerva blow up the Orb fleet and kill him.
>>14040203
I feel like Yuna vs Cagalli Orb civil war was supposed to be the B plot that kept the old cast having something to do until near the end of the show, but then they decided to make the entire show about the new cast vs the old so Yuna was reworked to just be the idiot that kept making reasons for the casts to fight.
>>14040299
Maybe
>>14040299
Probably not, given that he basically arranged their whole marriage while she was away and didn't tell her until it was too late to back out without causing a public scandal.
>>14040329
Nah, man. Every time anyone said ANYTHING to Shinn he just cried the same bullshit about how no one understands loss except him. It's impossible for anyone to win an argument with Shinn because he doesn't listen to anything anyone says and he tells everyone to shut up. You can't win an argument with someone who refuses to listen to anything but their own voice. Shinn was completely wrong because most of the people he gave that sermon to had also lost their entire families and/or large groups of friends, he was just too wrapped up in his own angst to care about anyone but himself.
>>14040329
Shinn didn't even have a point though beyond "You suck and I hate you for not being able to fight off the entire EA".
The points Shinn could have, such as Orb working with EA prior, he doesn't bring up, because he doesn't know about it. And Cagalli just cries instead of pointing out the obvious about Orb kind of saving everyones asses at the end of the war and keeping Plant and Earth from getting vaporized.
Which is basically Destiny where nobody communicates because the plot requires everyone to hate each other.
>>14040405
You reposted this from another thread.
Shinn's problem was that Orb was strong on MUH IDEALS MUH LOYALTY even if it meant throwing themselves into a battle that they could not win or conveniently puts themselves in a position. Orb knew that they couldn't win the fight against the EA, yet they chose to fight anyway.
As soon as he gets to Earth, Or, the supposedly netural country immediately draws his gang into a trap where they'll be bombarded from all sides. Then they join the EA, and even though there's a branch trying to break off from the EA, nobody in Orb does anything about it, and even though they know it's wrong, muh loyalty
Then they harbor a terrorist who actually goes on to kill several million people and when questioned about it, excuses and when challenged, they arm themselves for a fight.
>>14040933
>Orb knew that they couldn't win the fight against the EA, yet they chose to fight anyway.
They choose to fight to buy time to send their coordinator population away to safety and to prep the Kusanagi for escape. Then they sent them on their way and blew the driver. If they didn't do this, nobody would have been able to stop Azrael and Patrick.
Shinn has no real ground for arguing here. Yes it sucked, but it couldn't be helped. The only thing he could point out was Orb drawing attention to themselves by helping make the G Weapons, but Shinn doesn't know that. It was top secret. So he has no real ground to stand on without implying he'd rather the earth get wasted if he could have his family back. Which is hilariously selfish.
Orb's poor choices in Destiny are irrelvant here because they've yet to happen, so he's just bitching at Cagalli for daring to have pride in a country that was a significant help saving the world a year prior because his insiginificant family died.
In fact it's mostly because of Shinn spending the first arc hounding Cagalli and bitching at her about stuff she had no control over and couldn't be helped in Seed, that she becomes the weak willed mush that lets Yuna walk all over her and signs the treaty (she even goes to Shinn to basically say "There I didn't fight EA this time. Are you happy yet?") which causes the rest of Orb's problems in Destiny.
If Shinn had just shown a little bit more maturity and been less self centered much of his troubles with Orb could have been avoided.
>>14040987
>It was top secret.
I kinda doubt that actually. Under the Junius Treaty, there were sanctions placed against ORB barring them from supplying tech or personnel to either ZAFT or the EA. Seems kinda weird that Orb would be sanctioned if all this stuff was top secret. And it's not like the contents of peace treaties are secret either.
I'd be willing to bet that Orb has actually suffered repercussions in the public eye for it's involvement in the war. It's the kind of corruption scandal the media would eat up. And when a bunch of former Orb citizens end up developing MS for ZAFT (we can safely assume they were former Morgenroete staff), there's various ways such a story could get out.
>>14040987
>The only thing he could point out was Orb drawing attention to themselves by helping make the G Weapons, but Shinn doesn't know that.
Shinn joined ZAFT and was put in a Gundam - you think redcoats wouldn't know about how a team of redcoats infiltrated Orb's colony in the Bloody Valentine War and stole four Gundams?
He may not have known about it when his family died, but Shinn had a long time to sit on his rage.
>>14041045
>you think redcoats wouldn't know about how a team of redcoats infiltrated Orb's colony in the Bloody Valentine War and stole four Gundams?
Who exactly would know all the details beyond they stole EA's top secret suits? It was a secret mission at the time, and the only people from that mission still alive are Athrun Yzak and Dearka. Nicol Rusty Cruset and their Ginn pilots all died and both ships were destroyed.
It's doubtful the people that weren't even in the Zaft army at the time would know all those details. If Shinn knew about all this he'd certainly have said so instead of just saying grr his family is dead because Orb sucks and giving no specifics.
>>14040987
>They choose to fight to buy time...
Setting the fact aside that nuclear proliferation and GENESIS were unknown to the Three Ship Alliance at that point in time, and thus not under consideration for the scope for their actions, if all it takes for Cagalli to bend over is a little bitchfit from someone who's technically no longer her citizen, instead of "Shinn, I know your loss is still raw, but are you fucking aware of what the Atlantic Federation does to Coordinators they find?" then I doubt Destiny would have been any different whether Shinn had mouthed off at her or not.
>In fact it's mostly because of Shinn...
Cagalli does confront Durandal over the use of Orb engineers in the development of the 2nd-generation G-weapons but rather then telling him that housing refugees does not give them imperative or contract to steal data from Orb under the guise of working refugees, she basically falls silent when Durandal says that new weapons are always needed for security. She never narrates her own experience in the war to leverage against Shinn, she never holds firm in her position, she never asks Yuna "hey what the fuck, nobody told me about this marriage!". She basically falls back on looking like a kicked puppy every time someone replies to her one-liners, even when she has perfectly valid points to hold to.
I'd rather the series had taken >>14040365's Orb civil war development. It'll be a lot more interesting to see a slightly less firebrand Cagalli develop the maturity to carry out her father's ideals with compromise for the developing world situation VS Yuna's footkissing of Logos, than the not just weakly done, but BADLY and weakly done "royalty in exile" that happened in Destiny.
>>14040203
> if you look at Yuna's first episode, he seems kind of competent and has some idea of what he's talking about, what with the "This country is not your toy!" to Cagaili.
I agree. The sudden shift felt totally unnatural and forced.
>>14039979
Because he was a Bush expy in a show that pretty blatantly borrowed from popular politics of the day.
Speaking of Orb. I know they really get pretentious talking about their ideals and Uzumi flashbacks and stuff, but I always find that any critism towards it and complaints about the trouble it causes other countries is kind of invalidated by the fact that it's the only apparant country in CE that isn't either anti natural or anti coordinator but both can live their without issues.
Putting it like that, it's kind of understanable the lengths people go through to protect it in Destiny.
>>14040987
>They choose to fight to buy time to send their coordinator population away to safety and to prep the Kusanagi for escape
You're wrong from the start. The battle was entirely over the idea of them to die fighting than to abandon their ideals. The plan of throwing the Archangel and friends into space wasn't invented until after the first battle.
>>14042070
The Kingdom of Scandinavia is also neutral, and their monarch LET the Archangel sit in their waters after the great wedding escape. On the other hand, they apparently never get attacked. Like, literally never. Their sovereignty is about as irrelevant as the space whale fossil because it is never challenged nor does the need to defend it ever arises.
Until SEED Destiny finale, anyways, but the Terminal fleet is doing it for the KoS as much as they're doing it to defend the Earthbound nations against ZAFT. Man the Kingdom must either have the best millionaire resort shacks in the Earth Sphere or they're a nation of bankers with fingers in every economy.
S. America, N. Africa, and Australia are also pro-ZAFT but in these cases they're -probably- more in it for the trading rather than being genuinely accepting of Coordinators. Australia is the only one to get a major ZAFT base on it so I suspect that apart from trade guarantees the Australians also get allied defence advantages and a largely-neutral SEAsia as a buffer to go along with their landlease plan to the coordinators. That of course falls apart shortly after Orb is taken down.
In Destiny, the other nations sans Australia quickly slip into the anti-coordinator camp but I think that they're probably just not in favor of repeating another takeover event like in the last war, especially since after the in-between S. American War of Independence the S. Americans realized that not joining the Earth Alliance would give way to a second annexing and ZAFT won't be saving them, just like last time.
The Eurasian Fed. is tolerant of coordinators but are firmly anti-ZAFT. ZAFT and the Atlantic Fed., as you'd expect, are anti-natural/coordinator respectively.
The other nations just mainly don't like ZAFT due to the douchbaggery that was the April Fool's crisis, but in the typical stereotyping evident in some of the SEED series, they're all the same as the Atlantic Federation.
ZAFT kinda shot all public goodwill towards Coordinators in the foot with the whole "destroy the Earth's energy supply and doom millions to slow deaths by starvation and sickness" thing.
You know, the thing that was never mentioned in favor of OH MY GOD BLOODY VALENTINE THE NATURALS ARE SO BAAAAAD
Shinn's ranting of ORB's ideals is silly anyway.
If ORB had given in and worked with EA in the first war, ZAFT would be the ones invading them to stop the EA from using the mass driver. Either way, they are fucked.
Work with EA, the war gets worse much earlier on, and you probably get invaded by ZAFT later, and also the risk of EA forcing you to remove your coordinator population while they are there(And thus the Shinn from this hypothetical situation would bitch about ORB not protecting their coordinator population in favor of the country)
Don't work with EA, EA invades your country and overwhelm you with numbers.
Hell, ORB worked with EA in Destiny, and they were invaded by ZAFT(The invasion wouldn't had happened if they handed over Djibril in which case they might as well simply not work with him in the first place).
There's no way to win this shit.
>>14039979
It was this character and his interactions with Cagalli that made me love the whole NTR shit. I remember watching seed when I was young and seeing Cagalli get forced to marry this guy gave me all sorts of dirty thoughts.
Thanks Fukuda
>>14042238
It helps that her relationship with Assram was like having a 12 years old girl writing down her fantasies.
>>14040211
You mean married Cagalli right?
>>14042152
There's a difference from being forced into a shitty situation by the EA and having to deal with it and then marching out into glorious defeat because Honor and Ideals and Justice say that they're a good idea. It might make all of your staff respect you, but on the other end of that.
Orb KNEW they couldn't win that battle in the first place. Blowing up the entire leading cabinet to some is probably seeing them go out with the heads held up high, but at some ends, it's a coward's way out because now they don't have to deal with the EA while Orb is being occupied. The fact that the old cabinet blew themselves up is what lead to Orb throwing it's hat in with the EA again in the first place.
The point is that this is what Shinn experienced, and the concept of Orb not getting into a war wasn't just something he heard once, but something they routinely made statements on the bloody news. Here comes the looming battle and Orb goes for it. Even with 4 Gundams, they can't win the battle.
Of course, the meta-reason is that we're not going to have a potential battle not happen, but Orb could have gotten it's objectives done without having to get into a fight they can't win. The end result is that Orb get occupied by the EA anyway.
I don't even need to go into Orb's actions in GSD.
>>14041085
>Who exactly would know all the details beyond they stole EA's top secret suits? It
Everyone who fought alongside them?
Speaking of forcing bullshit, why was Shinn's family dead anyway? In SEED's original Orb battle they had the population evacuated days before the EA fleet even made it to them.
So either Fukuda forgot how his own series was written, or Shinn's family was a collection of dumbasses that ignored a MASSIVE PUBLIC EVACUATION for... reasons. Shinn certainly wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, so I could see where he got it from if case B.
>>14042344
Did you not notice how fucking stupid they were from the 30 seconds they were in the show?
>muh phone
>let's all stand here now
>>14042344
I think they mentioned they waited until the last possible second to evacuate because they didn't believe Orb would actually be attacked until the Dagger's actually started landing on their shores.
Which doesn't really paint them as being very smart.
>>14042489
>>14043089
So, it's genetic? Welp, there goes the whole coordinator=superior theory. Thank you, Shinn's family, for remonding us that Darwin rocks, and playing with genes just fucks you up. All hail Al da Flaga, the perfecg being!
>>14042305
>There's a difference from being forced into a shitty situation by the EA and having to deal with it
That WAS how they dealt with it. Contrary to popular belief Orb guys aren't deliberately trying to get themselves killed for glory. Uzumi actually thought he could hold them off, and they weren't doing that badly until Azrael pulled out 3 more Gundam's.
When it failed they came up with the launch plan, but they were actually trying to win and keep Orb unoccupied by the crazy people that wanted to kill half their population. They didn't decide to just suicide into the EA for glory.
And Uzumi was already talking about forming a force to stop the war before the invasion ever happened, which is why AA and Kusanagi's crews are talking about just that even before Lacus shows up. Keeping Orb free to operate out of would be a significant advantage to that, but if not about all else he had to get AA and Kusnagi into space which is why he didn't just blow the driver to start with and hope EA wouldn't invade them anyway out of spite.
The only excessively HONOR thing was Uzumi killing himself and his entire staff. I think they said he did that so EA would have nobody to blame since it was his idea.
>>14043125
>And Uzumi was already talking about forming a force to stop the war before the invasion ever happened
That actually makes the scenario sound worse.
I'd understand if Uzumi pushed for being a mediator to the EA and ZAFT but if he explicitly mentions stopping them by force if they don't listen, what's stopping the EA from ganking him on land and ZAFT from shutting down Orb's remaining space station?
>>14043151
He doesn't announce it publically, it's just something he's talking about with Kira Murrue and Mwu privately in his office after he gets the report of Zaft's attack on EA's driver.
By the time he started this plan their forces would already be up in space.
>>14039979
And yet as terrible as they make him out to be Cagalli still makes herselve look worse when she lets him walk all over her then needs Kira to save her stupid ass.
Then she fails even harder when she does nothing untill Orbs picking a fight with ZAFT.
>>14041250
>"Shinn, I know your loss is still raw, but are you fucking aware of what the Atlantic Federation does to Coordinators they find?"
Except they occupied Orb and didn't genocide Orb's Coordinators after Uzumi decided his ideals were more important than his people and
dared Azrael to invade.
>It'll be a lot more interesting to see a slightly less firebrand Cagalli develop the maturity
What? you do realise she was put in power precisely because she was hot headed and immature right? Popular princess Orb's other leaders could use to keep people happy and make a useful
scapegoat if shit went wrong.
If Cagalli had 2 braincells to rub together she'd have stayed out of it but she was too blinded by her old man's self destructive crap to think for herself untill an
army rolled upto her country for a second time thanks to her inaction.
>>14043125
So instead of staying alive when his people needed him the most he killed himself over nothing and left them alone with the EA after pissing them off.
Also no they couldent win at all even if the EA backed off they can just blockade the island and Orbs fucked. they lost before the first shot was fired Uzumi just made sure the EA had the perfect excuse for the sake of Ideal his
countrymen pissed away with the entire Astray project which even his fucking daughter acting on her own figured out.
he either knew what was happening on Heliopolis and turned a blind eye to benefit or was the most naive fool in SEED/DESTINY
which is saying something.
>>14043272
They sent all the Coordinators away as refugees prior to the attack. That's why Cagalli's there at the beginning of Destiny because some of them didn't want to come back and were giving Zaft Orb's military data they had.
They also destroyed everything EA actually wanted when Uzumi blew it all up so EA was left occupying an island with nothing or worth, no coordinators to persecute, and nobody to blame because Uzumi was the mastermind and he died. They left a small detachment and left since Azrael and Blue Cosmos had more important things to do any thing of worth in Orb was destroyed or escaped.
But if they'd just surrendered from the start, like Shinn seems to think they should have, then Azrael and BC would have rolled into Orb and started making use of their facilities to build MS's and Mass Driver to launch to space, while also having free reign to kill any Coordinators they found.
>>14043289
Uzumi didn't want to get involved in a genocidal war between two races of which both made up his countries population.
Why is that so bad that he insists on staying neutral? The alternative was getting on tv and telling some of his citizens he was throwing them to the wolves and working with a guy he knew was a genocidal asshole.
>>14043635
But he wasn't neutral because his countrymen were violating it in a scheme so poorly hidden that Cagalli running around on her own could figure it out. The moment that shit went public his country's neutrality claim became worthless.
Also you forget he had a choice in the end give the EA access to the mass driver and they won't burn his country to the ground, Guess what he chose.
>>14043795
Generally speaking nobody seems to consider Rondo Gina Sahaku as a representative of the Orb government, since he's more or less trying to overthrow it with the EA's help.
Making the claim that Orb is allied with the EA doesn't actually help the EA at all ("we're going to invade you because you're an ally" isn't exactly logical) and ZAFT has bigger problems, so I don't see how it even matters.
>>14044181
You missed the point the Sahaku's are one of 3 major political families in Orb the shit they pulled never made them allies with the EA what it does do is mean part of Orbs goverment just violated the countries neutrality making any claim Orb makes later of being neutral a joke.
When Azrael came knocking Uzumi had 2 options, He could let the EA use the mass driver and put his people before his ideals or he could say no maintaining his ideals and have the people he claimed to serve suffer for it.
Thats the problem with the logic in >>14043635 He argues that giving the EA what they wanted was throwing his people to the wolves so instead he says no and throws them to angry wolves instead? He knew azrael was a genocidal asshole
yet he's still willing to piss him off and fight a battle he can't win leaving his people in the hands of a now very pissed off genocidal asshole who has noone to vent his anger at but those civilians because Uzumi and his lackeys commited suicide and blew the driver?
Orb civilians worship this guy why???????
>>14044232
Okay you're now full on in to the territory of things that never happened and typing like a retard.
>>14044248
What didn't happen? the EA giving Orb an ultimatum?
Uzumi starting a fight he couldent win?
The people of Orb so convinced of the Atha's greatness that a whole bunch didn't evacuate dispite an EA fleet being on their doorstep?
Might want to talk to Shinn about how that last one didn't happen.
>>14044260
It wasn't "just let us use ur mass driver brah"
It was "fight in our genocidal war against zaft or we fucking wipe you out"
>>14042489
>muh phone
Hey fuck you anon that flip phone was brand new in 2005
Actually in hindsight, the idea that they have gundams, but still use flip phones is pretty funny
>>14043795
>Also you forget he had a choice in the end give the EA access to the mass driver and they won't burn his country to the ground
It wasn't nearly as nice as "Just let us use your driver for a few days and we're cool" It was "You are joining us in our crusade to kill all the Coordinators, dissolving your government and giving us control of your country giving us complete control of your Mass Driver and factories, and your army is coming with us to be our cannon fodder in our war. Also all coordinators are the enemy so we don't be treated the ones in your country very well."
Uzumi himself said these demands were outrageous and there was no way he could possibly agree to that, which was the point because Azrael says to his ship captain he made them ridiculous on purpose because he had every intention of attacking Orb from the start because he hated them being cool with coordinators and wanted to test out his 3 new Gundams.
There was no way for that situation to ever work out. Not with Azrael in charge.
>>14043125
>When it failed they came up with the launch plan, but they were actually trying to win
And yeah, that's the problem, and that's why when Shinn says "false promises" directly to Cagaili.
They got into a fight they couldn't win! Even if they replied them that day, the EA would show up with another force and eventually wear them down via attrition. War came knocking on the door, and Orb said "okay, well, let's fight then!"
I'm not saying that it's an easy decision to make and that nobody suffers over having to do this sort of thing, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Unless your defense is iron-clad, the idea that they can just push anyone away that tries to get on their case isn't feasible. Then it comes down to it, get down or lay down? They chose to fight.
We can argue all day if it was the right or wrong thing to do, but it should be understandable that someone is angry at them, being on the end result of those actions.
>>14046187
Maybe he should be angry at his retard family for not evacuating when they fucking should have.
But it just wouldn't be Shinn if his anger wasn't horribly misplaced, after all.
>>14040392
No one ever tried to give Shinn a good argument. The best we got was Athrun slapping him but unfortunately Athrun is the shittiest Mentor ever.
>>14046486
Well that would have been a good argument but no one in the show even tried arguing with him.
>>14046502
This is the same universe where the best response to Rau's retardation at the end of SEED was 'NO U'. Of course no one was expecting any decent arguments from either side.
Evacuation of an entire nation is going to take much more than a couple of days. Especially considering Orb had basically no allies left because of their neutrality policies. And as we see, indeed, the evacuation is still undergoing during the battle.
>>14046486
>Maybe he should be angry at his retard family for not evacuating when they fucking should have.
Do we know that though? Maybe they were one of the last ones to arrive just because they lived far away from the evacuation point?
>>14046497
Athrun tried early on, with saying that he and Cagalli lost people in the last war too and Shinn wasn't the only one so he should get off his victim complex.
Shinn didn't care, and that was basically the end of that. After that Athrun resulted into slapping to try to get his point across. And that didn't work neither.
Really the only way for shinn to listen to someone is if they deliberately told him what he wanted to hear. Which is how Durandal and Rey controlled him so well.
