Anybody else reading this? What do you think so far?
Any other /lit/ in /m/ recomendations? I didn't know how badly I wanted more Gaint robots outside anime and manga.
Is this that novel that pretends that Japan somehow managed to win WWII and conquer the US despite that being a literal physical impossibility?
>>13970497
We had a thread about it none too long ago. It was awful.
>>13970519
Not that I'm saying the book is good but if you use this argument for anything you're retarded.
>>13970522 Sorry I missed it, it's reviewed well on amazon and other places so I was thinking about picking it up but I wanted a second opinion.
>>13970519 I'm honestly not sure, if it does borrow enough from Man In The High Castle, it just means they got nukes first, rather than get nuked first. Which isn't as impossible as it would seem even if it was only by them stealing the tech from us.
Wasn't this made by that faggot who made "nerd" references in his books by citing out shit like gundam and voltron in the most autistic, encyclopedic manner possible?
so why do they have giant robots?
>>13970497
>United States of Japan
>Japan ain't even in America
This failure of a title doesn't bode well in my willingness to read it.
Summaries suggest this book is more cyber punk distopian secret police thriller than it is a Giant robot vs x.
>>13970497
Do the Americans make the anime in this book? Or is it still western animation and there are reverse-weebs living in Japan with Catwoman body pillows?
>>13971674
Wow, you really are an idiot.
I'm not really a fan of the whole "evil foreign dictatorship took over our country so we're going to fight back" story. The conquerors are always heavy-handed brainwashers and mass-murderers who put themselves into a situation where they just ferment rebellion.
I think it'd be more interesting for the two cultures to merge and create a hybrid value system that stems from the occupying nation having the foresight to realize that getting along with the locals is a good idea. If you use all your Nazi superscience to make their lives better then the freedom fighters start to look like terrorists to the population.
>>13971734
Whoever came up with the title is an idiot.
A geographically correct title would be "Japanese States of America" or something.
>>13970497
Stop trying to push it. It's crap. Culturally insensitive yankee underdog wish fulfillment crap at that.
>english robot "visual novel"
no thanks amerilard
>>13971768
>he doesn't like He died in the game, he died for real LIKE A REAL SAMYOORAY fiction.
>>13970519
sounds more realistic than anything Gundam related
>video game shit
>>13970497
it was shit
>>13971750
>I think it'd be more interesting for the two cultures to merge and create a hybrid value system that stems from the occupying nation having the foresight to realize that getting along with the locals is a good idea. If you use all your Nazi superscience to make their lives better then the freedom fighters start to look like terrorists to the population.
but that be too interesting to read
>>13971750
So Big Hero 6?
>>13972037
> Japan wins the war, takes over America from the west coast, sets up a regional capital that's closer to Japan.
> In the process solves two problems before they begin: giving weebs their own Tokyo and preventing San Fran SJWs.
Sounds like a winner to me!
>>13972037
Nah something more like uh...
>WW2
>Japan starts war with US
>however there's a revolt against the Imperialists after Pearl Harbour's failure becomes apparent
>Emperor is forced to support a more moderate regime that withdraws from China early and sets up a defensive sphere in the Pacific
>later on in the war US invents Nukes
>while in transit however one of them accidentally goes off in the middle of a city causing panic and contamination
>American people freak out that some disease is spreading and abandon large swathes of the West Coast
>Japan sees and opportunity to force the US' surrender and sends their fleet to quickly occupy several cities and bases
>Americans panic and send their remaining Nuke to hit Japan
>it hits near Tokyo, this time news of the radiation panic from the accidental explosion in the US causes the Japanese to panic and demand resettlement from the government
>Japan's navy is overextended, they're setting in a strategically great position but the local population means they can't maintain their forces in America's territory
>end up shipping hundreds of refugees from Tokyo to the American cities they captured
>Japanese civilians move in while the US army return home
>operations in Europe stall without them, leaving the war in a stalemate
>US army and navy prepare to retaliate but receive reports that the cities that were hastily abandoned are now re-occupied and the military's moral falters at the idea of facing fanatical Japanese troops, especially after they were hastily recalled from abroad and suffering from supply issues, also Jap troops had acquired superior American tanks and tank destroyers from abandoned armories
>they try diplomacy
>Japan agrees to a cease-fire as well since they're completely overstretched and juggling two fronts
1/2
>>13972114
>a year passes
>Japan's US territories start trading with American cities, citizens start trying to return to their homes and find Japanese families living in them
>Japan doesn't approve of the Americans but don't want to upset the balance until they can dig themselves out of the economic quagmire that the nukes left their homeland in
>American music and culture starts leaking into Japanese territory, likewise Japanese artifacts, language and culture hit the markets in nearby American towns
>book could be about US soldiers guarding a town on the border between zones, dealing with the relationship between the two, maybe a soldier even tries to get a Japanese girlfriend or something, while Japanese youth protags on the other side start dancing clubs and wearing suits in secret
>eventually the two cultures in the buffer area start to intermingle, whites and Japs living together under loaded guns while their leaders keep thinking of ways to excise the other
>second book could cover US-Japan's relationship with the homeland as the society changes, protagonist could be Japanese governor who starts learning about America's history of rebellion and freedom and gets inspired by the founding fathers, ends up forming an alliance with US merchants to help ferment independence through culture warfare. Meanwhile the other protag is a Japanese traditionalist who wants to force his own people to return home and teams up with US militiamen who have the same goal
>Third book could be about independence triggering an Imperial Civil War, a proper peace treaty with the US government who realize that the US-Japs are not the invaders they once were, and implications the two nations will merge into a new United States in the future.
>and then the Nazi UFOs attacked.
Man fuck historical fiction, there's way too much shit to remember at 2:45AM. I'm going to bed.
>>13972114
>>13972117
This is a longwinded way of establishing Western Strike Witches
>>13971757
What if they are the states united by Japan?
>>13972114
>>13972117
This wall of green text and not a single mention of a giant robot.
For shame, anon.
any one have a ddl or torren for it?
>>13972171
They were "united" before Japan.
After the US lost the war, they were split between Japan and the Nazis. They aren't really the "United States" anymore.
Disregard everything in this thread,
The important things is who the hell made that gorgeous illustration ?
I'm starting my search
Found :
http://www.johnliberto.com/
>>13970933
No. That was a different author, but the last thread about this book got detailed by discussion of that.
>>13972114
>>13972117
This is a nifty idea, though I'm not sure how a single nuke would cause the whole west coast to be evacuated even in a city, since the fallout wouldn't extend to the entire coast. You might want to make it a different secret weapon, or even a bioweapon; IIRC...Unit 731? I think? Was working on those.
>>13976705
In defense of the idea, awareness of radiation sickness and the general nastiness of radiation itself was rather recent, and I could believe that mass panic and ignorance could lead to people doing something profoundly dumb because NUCLEAR ENERGY THE DEVIL'S STEAMWORK.
>>13971750
Not realistic.
Nationalism is a powerful force, look at how the US got kicked out of Iraq despite not being terribly evil.
I personally wouldn't accept ANYONE invade and subvert my country and undo 500 years of sovereignty.
>>13976705
He could use a high altitude nuclear explosion to cause an EMP and fuck up an entire coast I guess?
>>13976729
People vastly over-estimate nukes. Chernobyl has only killed a few people, mostly kids with existing issues. Japan didn't surrender because of the nukes - in fact, it barely noticed them since most Japanese cities had already been firebombed to shit before then by the US. They had to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki, since every bigger city was a smoking ruin. The Japs didn't care that one bomb caused that ruin instead of 300 (or whatever).
>>13976807
Yeah the Japanese were already starving. The US could have just waited a year but they were in a hurry to finish the war because of the Soviets.
Luckily the Japanese emperor didn't want his country to commit suicide and ordered to surrender.
>>13976807
>Japan didn't surrender because of the nukes
pretty much this
>>13976807
>>13976705
I was actually going for more of an Orson Welles War of the Worlds radio broadcast thing where the Nuke didn't actually do much beyond the blast radius but news and public hysteria would screw up both militaries without any real physical damage.
>A spiritual sequel to The Man In The High Castle, focusing on the New Japanese Empire, from an acclaimed author and essayist.
>Decades ago, Japan won the Second World War. Americans worship their infallible Emperor, and nobody believes that Japan’s conduct in the war was anything but exemplary. Nobody, that is, except the George Washingtons—a group of rebels fighting for freedom. Their latest terrorist tactic is to distribute an illegal video game that asks players to imagine what the world might be like if the United States had won the war instead.
>Captain Beniko Ishimura’s job is to censor video games, and he’s tasked with getting to the bottom of this disturbing new development. But Ishimura’s hiding something…kind of. He’s slowly been discovering that the case of the George Washingtons is more complicated than it seems, and the subversive videogame’s origins are even more controversial and dangerous than the censors originally suspected.
>Art by John Liberto (http://www.johnliberto.com/)
Wow; I'm surprised /m/'s stance has changed from the original reveal.
http://desustorage.org/m/thread/13773111
http://desustorage.org/m/thread/13804056
>>13976807
The bombs at the time were too weak for a really effective EMP and even if they had managed to set off a strong EMP the worst it would have done was taken out some power lines at that time..
EMP's are vastly overrated, especially in self published gun-nut masturbation. A friend of mine loves them. He has at least fifty of them and he tortures me by reading bits to me. Like the one that has china making a container ship into a secret launch pad for a EMP nuke that covers the entire country letting china send over troops in civilian ships to take over the US. Only to be beaten back by the brave gun-nuts who had been waiting for that to happen all along. With a side order of the liberals all turning traitor so they could be shot as well.
Or the one were the US government setups a fake meteor so they can fire off a nuke that "accidentally" EMP's the whole country so that FEMA can bring in their jackbooted thugs to take over the nation. In that one they get to shoot the government and the black urban rapist cannibals.
>>13977803
>With a side order of the liberals all turning traitor so they could be shot as well.
Can't have crazy pie without a side of propaganda spice.
>>13977803
Wish we had more realistic commie invasion stories like Red Dawn.
rip Milius, reduced to making shitty videogames.
>>13976798
> I personally wouldn't accept ANYONE invade and subvert my country and undo 500 years of sovereignty.
You say that as if your country didn't changed in the last 50 years beyond anything your grand-pa would consider "his country".
For example, in my country, in the last 50~~70 years (stretching) women got the right to vote, work and have money by themselves, abortion...and way more recently Gay & Les can now marry.
500years ago my country was still ruled by a king while religion was still fused with the state (now only primitive country like Iran or the US still cling to their religion).
Reminder that the US is made of 53 countries with conflicting laws.
tl;dr
If my country had been invaded ~50years ago and I/we -somehow- didn't find something wrong with the ancient non-describ invader, I would probably consider myself "culturally integrated".
>>13979500
But the US's most defining feature is popular sovereignty. You don't understand how much we value the worth of it. We've lived on our elected leaders since we were founded.
Also state laws are separate for separate areas because the people there are different. That does not mean they conflict.
tl;dr non-Americans don't understand that many of us would rather die than live under another power
>>13979500
>let me tell you about your country
>>13979593
I could have phrased my rant better. I'm assuming the invaded get back what they want with no bloodbath.
Still, the United State only became a thing by 1776 and got into a secession war didn't THEY ?
I know that sovereignty will kick back again later, look at European country and their old colonies.
Yet, now there's the European Union, France & Germany are good friend just like Japan have not (much)resentment against the US despite having been deprived of sovereignty for a while. (that is unless extremist party there are much more popular than I think)
Also, It help that I'm not taking my views about Culture from that MC in the novel "Kirinyaga". The US in the 50s is not the US now.
> tl;dr non-Americans don't understand that many of us would rather die than live under another power
...yeah, right.
Considering the USA rate pretty low as a democracy, I'm tempted to think those states would live under any local power as long as collectively they can fuck up anybody who bother a few token values common to any Democracy.
Never lived there but the US being an unique experience seem quite overrated. The only difference is that you are desensitized to mass shooting or corruption to care.Got the feeling this rant will be taken worse than the first
>>13979697
>Never lived there but the US being an unique experience seem quite overrated
why do you feel qualified to talk about the american identity if you've never even been there?
>>13970555
>well review on amazon
anon
>>13977679
>>13977681
>>13977684
>>13977688
fuck me, I miss the front mission franchise
>>13979728
I know that feel
>>13979697
>Still, the United State only became a thing by 1776 and got into a secession war didn't THEY ?
Yes, before that we were not the United States. We fought for our independence and we're not going to give it up so easily.
>I know that sovereignty will kick back again later, look at European country and their old colonies.
So we just wait for their empire to start falling apart? Sure thing, great strategy.
>Yet, now there's the European Union,
Economic power that all member states hate the political aspect of.
>France & Germany are good friend
Germany is under a totally different power and ideology than the one that invaded them. They didn't just forgive, they made sure the Nazis were exterminated first. And Germany has had a really rough time thanks to the Soviet Union and guilt and all that.
>just like Japan have not (much)resentment against the US despite having been deprived of sovereignty for a while.
Difference being that they were the invading power. They were taking land all over Asia and attacked us in order to get more. The US fought back until they surrendered. Then they instituted a government that wouldn't try to invade anyone before eventually leaving. That is very different than an invading power grabbing land.
>>13979697
>USA rates pretty low as a democracy
We elect local, state, and federal leaders. The only really important offices we don't elect are Supreme Court and cabinet members but that's with an understanding of the elected leader who will.
>le mass shootings
Media grabbing on to it. Yes it's shit but statistically they're absolutely insignificant. Many "mass shootings" in statistics are gang violence anyway, same for gun violence.
>corruption
Every country has it but yes, we do. Although I'd like to know what specifically you're referring to.
>>13979705
> why do you feel qualified to talk about the american identity if you've never even been there?
Same reasons anyone do ?
Seriously, you can truly get good insight from people who aren't brainwashed by your own cultures (and I'm talking about mine too). You don't realize how insane your country is before you hear about it from another country.
Else you might as well quit 4chan and social interaction altogether. (Why do you feel qualified to talk about what I think without being me ?)
>>13979762
I didn't imply much of that.
I refrained to name country precisely to not fall into the "Man of the High Castle" alternate history tropes.
I'm not a Nationalist and an optimist. Ideally the US will not crumble, they'll just collectively learn humility, Actually become the democracy they claim to be, finally learn that social policy =/= Communist dictatorship, and they might even group up with the rest of the world, blahblahblah World Federation.
> Difference being that they were the invading power. They were taking land all over Asia and attacked us in order to get more. The US fought back until they surrendered. Then they instituted a government that wouldn't try to invade anyone before eventually leaving. That is very different than an invading power grabbing land.
The difference don't change my point : A country can not mind (much) the radical cultural shift imposed by the Invader. Also in this discussion we've not yet tried to define how and what was the "invasion".
Nowadays you must add Culture & Economy to the various forms of conquest and domination, Russia and China evolved beyond shitty communism to minmax capitalism, while other countries bowed and close their eyes to human right abuses while rich dictator buy their country little by little.
I see this thread is going well.
>>13979806
> We elect local, state and federal leaders
I imagine he means the two party system, the general lack of choice in any election and so on.
>>13979857
USA USA USA USA
>>13979806
To answer you :
The US have illogical "Electoral College", non-proportional votes, Gerrymandering and a system that basically prevent the rise of a third political movement. (yes the Two Party system is considered a very very bad thing for Freedom&Liberty)
Next, the state must basically beg its money from a PRIVATE "Federal Bank" with (luckily) the trillions dollar coin as a bargain tool.
As for corruption ... I'm unlikely to give you example that can't be found worse somewhere else. But in quantity the US is chock full Lobbying & Plutocracy. Just look at the NRA lobbying then move to other sectors like Health, Real Estate, US Defense...etc until they all have a seat at the Congress.
About the mass shooting, I'm not seeing them as significant myself, even terrorists attack is more symbolic than a real problem (they are even too stupid to attack critical infrastructure). But the US seem clearly desensitized to what it MEAN to sell private weapon AT ALL. (just to say I actually buy the whole "weapon in case you must storm the congress" logic, just differently)
I'm not saying my undefined country is better, recently most democratic countries have betrayed their core principle on something.
Btw, we drifted a lot from Alternate-History with mecha. I don't mind stopping this debate on a disagreement.
ps : had a hard time posting this, I'm blaming the Illuminati.
>>13979843
You did. For a conquesting nation, sovereignty doesn't just kick back in. You wait for it to collapse or you fight it. And the examples you posted are basically irrelevant.
>Ideally the US will not crumble, they'll just collectively learn humility,
Who needs it?
>Actually become the democracy they claim to be,
How, when another country just invaded us? Again, they don't just leave. How would it teach us democracy? And how do we not have it now?
>finally learn that social policy =/= Communist dictatorship,
If you mean "free" healthcare, "free" college etc. then you're still talking about a step towards it. Foreigners don't understand that the Federal gov't isn't supposed to be making many of these rules. Most of this stuff is supposed to be under the state's power. We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness but the government isn't supposed to hand it to us, they're supposed to get out of the way so we can get it for ourselves.
>and they might even group up with the rest of the world, blahblahblah World Federation.
Who wants to? The UN is as close as we'll get without sacrificing a shit ton of culture, history, tradition, and more.
>A country can not mind (much) the radical cultural shift imposed by the Invader. Also in this discussion we've not yet tried to define how and what was the "invasion".
The invasion and occupation would mean that, like Japan, we would not have the freedom to rule ourselves. I would not live under an Imperial Japanese rule because it goes against everything I stand for.
>Russia and China evolved beyond shitty communism to minmax capitalism, while other countries bowed and close their eyes to human right abuses while rich dictator buy their country little by little.
Globalism does that. Every country is a part of it. However if China were to completely shut off business to us then they'd suffer more. Russia's economy is a fucking joke.
>>13979941
>>and they might even group up with the rest of the world, blahblahblah World Federation.
>Who wants to? The UN is as close as we'll get without sacrificing a shit ton of culture, history, tradition, and more.
looks like you need to see Independence Day 2: Independence Harder, or Macross/Yamato 2199
>>13979966
I don't get it.
>>13977679
It's nice art but that doesn't make the novel good.
>>13979941
Errr... you are taking it from the (OP book) Alternate-History point of view are you ?
I'm afraid I meant everything in a broad general sense. Not a context-driven fiction.
> the government isn't supposed to hand it to us, they're supposed to get out of the way.
We can discuss that all days but you are claiming (the US) to pursue two mutually exclusive goals. While it is indeed the case, it doesn't make it right.
For any fair market to exist and for PRIVATE property to be a thing, you need an organization enforcing it, which mean laws and (if you made it so) votes.
It's a common mistake to think there's a things such as a "minimal government". A Gov is an organization keeping the cohesion between everything, it's the institution making so you have a "way" at all, because Anarchy won't.
Some American are madly in love with the myth of the self-made man but forget that some of their heroes only succeed because there was a system to make it (look like) Fair & Square.
> Who wants to? The UN is as close as we'll get without sacrificing a shit ton of culture, history, tradition, and more.
Intelligent people,
Culture and Tradition aren't actually things that can be sacrificed ...nor preserved. Time march on and you probably already insult traditions that were dear to your ancestor, and that can be a very good things.
Who know if the WORLD FEDERATION (c) wouldn't be much more awesome than the society you live in ? Myself I wouldn't want to live in the Far West.
> Globalism does that. Every country is a part of it [...]
Hope for whatever you want, but a system of systems don't mean they are all equal and eternal. Some country and language will get assimilated, Chinese might become the first Interplanetary language, or maybe the US will eat everybody and morph into a plutocracy that make 1984 look like a Utopia, who know ?
All I'm saying is that Economic/Cultural INVASION can become fully accepted by the host/invaded country.
>>13980095
I think you just don't value the right to self-determination.
It's not about quality of life, it's about living under the rules that you chose or agreed to obey.
If your country gets invaded, your laws change undemocratically, which is a violation of the right to freedom that every human has.
It seems you personally don't value that freedom, but many others do, and a society that would accept an economic/cultural invasion surely never amounted to much, or got blown up REALLY bad.
>>13979500
Noone is going to take orders from a foreign occupier.
Also there is such a thing as a shared identity and culture. Although much has changed over 500 years there are also things that have stayed the same.
>>13980166
Couldn't have put it any better myself.
>>13979934
Sorry for the wait, I had to do something. I can't read any other replies before I post this.
>The US have illogical
Both are very fair, agreed. Electoral College isn't too illogical but you do end up with crazy shit like, for a topical example, the """Democratic""" Party's super delegates so I know what you mean, it can really be a mess.
>As for corruption ... I'm unlikely to give you example that can't be found worse somewhere else. But in quantity the US is chock full Lobbying & Plutocracy. Just look at the NRA lobbying then move to other sectors like Health, Real Estate, US Defense...etc until they all have a seat at the Congress.
As much as I love my guns and agree with fighting for gun rights, you're right. That's part of the reason Trump has a lot of pull with Republicans. He's completely self-funded. How that plays out with lobbies isn't clear but many want to believe he can't be bought.
>About the mass shooting, I'm not seeing them as significant myself, even terrorists attack is more symbolic than a real problem (they are even too stupid to attack critical infrastructure). But the US seem clearly desensitized to what it MEAN to sell private weapon AT ALL. (just to say I actually buy the whole "weapon in case you must storm the congress" logic, just differently)
I really don't believe it has much to do with mass shootings. Gun ownership has no correlation with it. I think that, if we had better mental health services, it could be helped somewhat.
>I'm not saying my undefined country is better, recently most democratic countries have betrayed their core principle on something.
Too true.
>Btw, we drifted a lot from Alternate-History with mecha. I don't mind stopping this debate on a disagreement.
Didn't catch that before I posted the last bit, but this thread wasn't really mecha in the first place.
>>13980166
He must be a European. You have to understand, they have a weak culture.
>>13980198
I would.
I don't give a fuck about who our government is now. As long as they aren't forcing me into a death camp i'd follow whoever has conquered America and just try to live an easy life. Fuck 'rebellion' and all that requires.
>>13980351
disgusting
those who seek safety over freedom deserve neither
>>13980366
I'll kill for safety, I don't give a shit about freedom. I've never been free anyway. I've always been hurt though.
>>13980366
Then most of the first world deserves to die, since America lead the safety over freedom movement after 9/11. Besides which, he's not advocating safety over freedom, but rather that governments are interchangable and which one doesn't really matter so much as what they say.
>>13980166
I consider I value the right to self-determination and freedom a lot more than many pretend to.
But foremost I also understand those concepts as what they are : Extremely relative to context.
You make the (common) error of thinking that country are distinct entity with well defined Culture (treating them as if they were homogeneous, respected within vast population and do not change fundamentally with time or individual).
You are also being way too contextual and specific. Kind of like using a blue canvas to prove that blue canvas are always blue when painted blue under a blue light.
> If your country gets invaded, your laws change undemocratically, which is a violation of the right to freedom that every human has.
And yet we are all hypocritically okay to say that invading a country that chose/let itself become a problem for other country wasn't realllllyyy a violation of the right of freedom because we say it turned out better in the end... at some point in time at least, so it waaaaasssn't really bad and undemocratically.
The RIGHT to self-determination and freedom only matter if something can enforce it, which is already a violation. Then you can have an infinity of grey area where the way those concepts are expressed in equal but opposite ways.
Country and culture change all the time, just like frontier, and a country that was invaded long ago can progressively lose said "Right", not become they are being robbed of it, but because they don't care anymore.
So this is more a WILL to self-determination, here a collective one. Keeping in mind that even a democratic vote of 51 vs 49% will leave 49% of a population denied of said "right"...potentially leading to country splitting in two (Belgium, Flanders and Wallonia).
You can't defend freedom and happiness for everyone if you don't understand their limitation.By the way, Gundam Unicorn is in fact all about giving more right to self-determination to as many people as possible
>>13980271
Well unfortunately I don't have the time to correctly answer you either, It will be my last message for today.
So I'll try to be short :
> it can really be a mess.
Which should not be anywhere "acceptable" for a democracy.
> That's part of the reason Trump has a lot of pull with Republicans. He's completely self-funded. How that plays out with lobbies isn't clear but many want to believe he can't be bought.
I'm make a lot of enemy but to me he can't be bought because he is already bought. He will mostly work toward his self-interest (and insanity) those interest include the lobbies which are part of the system. He will defend that everybody can become rich like him through fair effort and individual might, despite it being fundamentally impossible.
> Gun ownership has no correlation with it
You've got to be kidding me...there is quite a lack of mass shooting and innocent death by gun, in any country which don't sell weapon to morons.
Yet again : I'm actually sold to the idea of self-defense against dictator, but all methods aren't equal.
I don't have time to fully emphasize it, but just to say : the "Right of the people to keep and bear Arms" was invented at a time where Firearms looked like that (quick research) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunderbuss
If we were serious we would only sell weapons that have the same specs within our modern context, not Mass-shooting-Kit.
Anyway, I should have been going an hour ago, so this rant is rushed.
>>13980453
>And yet we are all hypocritically
We still jail and deny freedom to those who have committed crimes. Same thing on an international level.
>The RIGHT to self-determination and freedom only matter if something can enforce it, which is already a violation.
Which is the concept of government. However that doesn't mean you shouldn't fight on the side of freedom in that grey area because you know government wants to fight on the side of security.
>but because they don't care anymore.
Too true.
>So this is more a WILL to self-determination, here a collective one. Keeping in mind that even a democratic vote of 51 vs 49% will leave 49% of a population denied of said "right"...potentially leading to country splitting in two (Belgium, Flanders and Wallonia).
Extremely important: Rights of the Minority and social contract. If you're in a democracy you have to accept that you can't always get your way. However if you did you still cannot take rights from those who didn't.
>>13980543
>Which should not be anywhere "acceptable" for a democracy.
But it is expected of governments, especially large ones. It is our job to call the government out on it when they won't. It sucks but that's how it is. Obviously we need to be doing some more of it at the moment.
>I'm make a lot of enemy but to me he can't be bought because he is already bought. He will mostly work toward his self-interest (and insanity) those interest include the lobbies which are part of the system. He will defend that everybody can become rich like him through fair effort and individual might, despite it being fundamentally impossible.
On Trump, it's hard to say if he's already corrupt. His policies are not (all) insane but many have significant problems as a result of him being vague. Obviously this doesn't clear him of guilt because as far as I know he has no solid plan. I'd still rather have him than Hillary, who is 100% corrupt, or Bernie, who would devastate our economy, but only barely. However it is very possible to be a self-made man, even right now. It's hard and you have to be lucky sometimes but there are still examples of people emerging today as self-made millionaires and even billionaires. You shouldn't be able to be middle-class on a no-skill minimum wage job, even if you work eight hours a day, especially if you're supporting a family. Enter a field that requires backbreaking work like construction or get yourself educated through books and night classes. Or live within your means. Sometimes that means not having a television, sometimes it means not having kids. The choice is yours. The real struggle is going from upper-lower or lower-middle to real middle class, because it often means you just have to save a shit ton of money. Once you get there though it becomes much easier to either relax and start spending (still within your means but you don't have to live paycheck-to-paycheck) or to go and build your wealth by starting a business or something.
Not that the OP topic was particularly riveting to begin with, but seriously, what the fuck happened to this thread?
>>13980543
>You've got to be kidding me...
Sorry, I was thinking by state, not country. However mass shootings are often done using illegal weapons especially if they're rifles. Again, although they are heavily publicized, mass shootings are not the norm and make up a fraction of a fraction of total murders in a country of 300,000,000+. Firearm violence is most often gang-on-gang, and statistics often include irrelevant deaths (like suicides). Gun violence on innocents, while regrettable and sad, is not my top concern and I would not agree with infringing on the rights and property of so many people to save them (however when there are already more than 300 million guns here, even a complete halt of the sale of firearms would not drastically reduce gun crime but would surely result in a rise of non-gun crime). And to purchase a gun you DO have to go through a background check.
>If we were serious we would only sell weapons that have the same specs within our modern context, not Mass-shooting-Kit.
At the time that was a military-grade rifle. You cannot defend against a dictator using 200-year-old weaponry. It is nearly impossible to get a hold of a fully automatic (aka machine gun) weapon anyway, we only sell semi-automatic (1 trigger pull, 1 shot) weapons, hardly mass-shooter kits. A semi-auto hunting rifle will kill you just as dead.
Peace, hope you made it on time.
If anyone else wants to talk /m/ politics I think I'd be up for it as long as it isn't with Black_Knight.
>>13980848
OP's book is political bait but thankfully discussion has been civilized even though it is off-topic. Protip: Any literature that has the US being invaded will not be taken very seriously on this board.
Talky Guy here, gonna answer concisely and hopefully conclusively.
>>13980664
I pointed out that Act of War make everybody leave the comfy confine of Inner-country Justice system to judge entire population "guilty per association".
No matter how you turn it, we are being hypocrite on many many level, either for lack of better solutions or because we reach fundamental limits of our legals systems. Like the concept of Nationality.
Right now many country/state can't even recognize transsexual people or natural-androgyny right.
>>13980835
Eh... to be blunt & frank, that simpleton vision of the "self-made man" is roughly the source of the problem.
Thanks to the common miracles of technology we've totally lost sights that the riches of one come from the exploitation of others, along appropriation of limited resources and most often : undeserved merit.
I would feel insulted to be called a Commie but I can't help but notice your use of "-class" suffix as if it was benign, but this is "bondage of class" right there.
To my humble opinion we shouldn't be able to define the "worth" of a person, not even keeping private property. Striving for equality/equal opportunity is not to be confused with making everybody poor) anyone.
>>13980868
I'm actually okay with "acceptable rate of death to the smooth running of society", but not with pointless and easily avoidable death.
> At the time that was a military-grade rifle.
Wrong logic to me. Nuclear Bomb are the finest in military-grade weapon, should we sell the "weak" C4, Tank and Gunship ?
In 1700 it was a weapon that allowed to defend yourself, fight collectively on equal footing, but not CASUALLY commit mass murder. The problem is that the technology changed non-linearly. musket =/= pistol and Blunderbuss =/= shotgun.
...and that's why a constitution should be for idea that can survive technological change.
>>13980874
Except if by aliens or by the US.
>>13983716
>Except if by aliens or by the US.
>the US being invaded by the US
NOW WE'RE TALKING, Have an Alternate USA, similar in many ways aside from minor aspects, minor policy differences and have the ability to travel through alternate realities, they've invaded many USA's of other realities before and now has its sights on this one.
>>13983809
Rifts plz
This is now a thread about the US being invaded by the US from an close alternate dimension.
I really wonder what would trigger that.
>>13983858
>Not launching marines off the missile rails.
0/10 you call that shit MURIKA?
>>13983858
Trump becomes presidentof Carl's Jr
>>13983884
muh oorah, muh tour in okinawa
>>13977673
God this sounds retarded i stopped at the 'george washingtons' and terrorism with
alt history games wtf is this shit. Whats next a novel about ISIS surrendering before the power of
hashtags then reforming into a charity?
>>13983716
>we are being hypocrite on many many level,
Yes, our system only provides freedom for US Citizens. Yes, it is hypocritical to promote that as the pinnacle of government and then force another country to stop following that, but we did turn it into a democracy later. It isn't like they were a real democracy beforehand anyway so what we did could be said to be justified as it was on the path to giving them freedom. Is it justice at its core? Hard to say, but I think that we did what was correct.
>Right now many country/state can't even recognize transsexual people or natural-androgyny right.
That comes down to the people. Although many people don't mind transpeople in an "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" way, when it comes down to "this man is now a woman, please treat her like one" it is hard for many to accept that. Not all, but a large enough portion. Acceptance of personal identity (not the same as natural identity) is not something that is guaranteed and I think it is not the place of government to force people to change their minds about how they are accepted.
>>13984196
>that simpleton vision of the "self-made man" is roughly the source of the problem.
Except it's not, really. People have done fine throughout history without government intervention. My father did it, several of my friends have done it. They went from having basically nothing to having respectable careers with a nice house and all the rest. One of my older buddies has a business worth a few million and it's still growing. All of them worked damn hard to do it and they don't blame any part of the system for keeping them back.
>Thanks to the common miracles of technology we've totally lost sights that the riches of one come from the exploitation of others, along appropriation of limited resources and most often : undeserved merit.
Exploitation? Maybe of the asian kids making iPhones for the first world. For businesses, the reality is that unskilled labor is not worth much and in the US it will land you a managerial position if you do your best. If you're looking for a better life, you cannot stay in a minimum-wage job. On the other two things: What's your point? Government itself is the worst offender of these.
>To my humble opinion we shouldn't be able to define the "worth" of a person, even keeping private property.
In my opinion, it's perfectly fine. Nobody is restricted by these labels, it's just a vague measurement.
>>13984199
>Wrong logic to me. In 1700 it was a weapon that allowed to defend yourself, fight collectively on equal footing, but not CASUALLY commit mass murder.
Again, we only sell semi-automatic weapons, these aren't machine guns or anything we're talking about. Muskets and rifles were used for revolts and attacks plenty of times. Mass murder was not unheard of. Yet only today are firearms blamed for these things. There is no difference between the use of a firearm today and one during the signing of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In fact, our ability to fight back against the government is already greatly inhibited. I believe that a populace armed with semi-automatic weapons is enough, but anything less and we have very little chance of fighting back a dictatorship. (Obviously I don't expect the entire military to turn on its own citizens but the danger is always there.)
>musket =/= pistol and Blunderbuss =/= shotgun
Actually they did have shotguns during the American Revolution and at the time of the ratification of the Bill of Rights. Revolvers came not long after.
Because the right to bear arms is still necessary to the freedom of the state (and its people), I believe that most attempts to restrict that right, especially to the point we've reached today, are unjust.
Debate is nice when it's outside of /pol/. I don't mind stopping here either but I'm still in the mood for politics, so /m/ political talk sounds fun.
>>13984221 >>13984199 >>13984196
Ah come on ! Just as I was about to leave !
...in second sight, I don't see much to answer. Your mindset is typical of what I just criticized and I know why. So I'll only be repeating myself and pointing out error in your logic. I excuse myself in advance for the arrogance.
> It isn't like they were a real democracy beforehand anyway so what we did could be said to be justified as it was on the path to giving them freedom
That's putting a context where it's not needed and assuming your country as superior based on cultural bias. A quick look at the phase "democratic country" went through is enough to see than a century is enough to change a country from Good to Evil and vice-versa.
There's no metric in "cultural achievement", "separation of religion and state" or even "death per day" to judge a country objectively.
> Except it's not, really. People have done fine throughout history without government intervention.
Substitute "government" for "organization" and you might see that human never ever lived without a "interventionist" system, even as cavemen. We only made better system since then.
I totally understand why you act like that thought. People HATE being told that their success have more to do with outside factors.
> Exploitation?
I nearly envy your innocence. For every CEO there's 1000 underpaid "unskilled worker" some doing more than the CEO but without the merit because Business are autocratic structure.
> What's your point? Government itself is the worst offender of these
An offender of what ? Of not pretending everybody can become Billionaire ? Even if you made everybody into transhuman-gods with their own private heaven you would still find a Libertarian fantasying of "gaining fairly" others' heavens and blaming Government of Utopia for holding him back.
And to finish with the 2nd amendment thingy
> There is no difference between the use of a firearm today and one during the signing of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights
Then you are letting yourself be fooled by superficial similarity and missing entirely my point about technology changing the way society work.
To take a futuristic analogy again : if you lived in the Matrix -where immortal AGENT dodge any bullet (except that one)- would the 2nd amendment make more sense than the "right to hack code and negate the laws of physics ?"
And let's not forget the obvious : You don't necessarily need Armed Citizen to have a good or BETTER society.I love this picture
>>13984552
I'm not assuming superiority on a cultural bias. Remember that Japan invaded the Asian mainland. It was a power grab. There isn't a subjective morality to reason with here, they were doing horrible things. When a government does horrible things, especially when they pick a fight with another country, you can't say that they didn't deserve what was coming to them. Yes, I wish I could have spared the civilians from firebombing and atom bombing but war is war. The government did the same to China and Korea, I don't see how removing the people who did those things is bad, especially when we made sure that the people would decide those things for themselves in the future, bringing about a future of self-determination for its people. Should we have let the empire continue?
Yes, the people of Japan are more good than they were in the 1940s. There aren't fanatics who want to build up an empire under the glory of the emperor anymore. I am going to judge their morality on an objective basis in that sense, it has nothing to do with culture. It has nothing to do with religion.
>>13984576
>i dont like guns
>posting on /m/
kill you are self
>>13984682
you first
>>13984552
>Substitute "government" for "organization"
I meant further government intervention. Obviously they weren't living in a vacuum, I was mostly arguing against the idea that government is still too small and uninvolved with making sure people get something they think they're entitled to, which I thought you were implying back when you mentioned "social policy". I don't want the government to get out of trade and leave big businesses and corporations alone. I just don't think that they should be pushing so hard from the bottom to give people things.
>For every CEO there's 1000 underpaid "unskilled worker" some doing more than the CEO but without the merit because Business are autocratic structure.
Experience is considered a skill. I agree that CEOs get ridiculous wages for making decisions that have few repercussions on themselves (after all, if things go wrong they can just sell their shares and end up with what amounts to bad press while hundreds lose their jobs at the bottom) but you act like it's impossible to rise in a business structure. It's not autocratic and merit is absolutely noticed. I can speak of this first-hand. If each boss did less work than the people under him then companies would fall apart. And yes, unskilled labor does mean unskilled. Assembly line workers, McDonalds cashiers. I don't mean the white collar jobs, because those DO have movement within the business structure.
I have to do something so don't reply quite yet.
>>13984576
read that speech to the thug that kicks in your door
>>13984731
To add on a little more:
The system we have made better has not moved in one direction. It goes back and forth, always trying to find balance. Both large and small intervention policies with business have met failure and successes. I'm not arguing for a self-made man that was 100% separate from the government and made himself a billionaire in a day. I'm talking about going from a family that was deeply in debt with tons of unpaid taxes to being a college-educated engineer who is slowly but very steadily chipping away at his parents' debt while still living in decent comfort. I'm talking about entering the country with no knowledge of English, teaching yourself the language, buying nothing but the bare minimum to live while doing odd jobs, using the money saved to open a business and become successful enough to retire at 48. Not everyone can be rich but you can change your economic standing significantly on your own. The government doesn't need to help the people directly, they should make sure the system is fair enough to allow people to find success.
>>13984552
>An offender of what ? Of not pretending everybody can become Billionaire ? Even if you made everybody into transhuman-gods with their own private heaven you would still find a Libertarian fantasying of "gaining fairly" others' heavens and blaming Government of Utopia for holding him back.
Are you saying that the government does not exploit its citizens and workers, that it does not appropriate limited resources and does not award positions based off of undeserved "merit"? Government isn't the superhero coming in to save us from the evils of big business. You said so yourself that they're corrupt, I'd argue moreso than any business because they are expected to be living on the principles of democracy and fairness, not profit.
Again, not everyone can be rich. But you aren't stuck being poor or even middle class in most situations. (Some are, tragically, but they are not the majority.) And if there's one ideology that supports "gaining fairly" others' property, it's socialism, and some Democrats like to get pretty close to it. Except in this case they want to expand the government and blame the Constitution for holding them back.
>>13984731
Actually they did research on this. The gap between rich and poor is growing because the rich can give their kids the best education and a lot of connections.
How is this /pol/shit still up?
Civilized off-topic discussion is still off-topic.
>>13984576
>Then you are letting yourself be fooled by superficial similarity and missing entirely my point about technology changing the way society work.
The similarity is not superficial. The technology we have has hardly changed, it is society itself that has changed.
>To take a futuristic analogy again : if you lived in the Matrix -where immortal AGENT dodge any bullet (except that one)- would the 2nd amendment make more sense than the "right to hack code and negate the laws of physics ?"
I don't get what you mean by this. It seems to me you're advocating that such an amendment should be updated to INCREASE one's rights to self defense and the ability to fight dictatorships etc. as technology progresses? I think I'm wrong here but I guess I just can't understand the point of the hypothetical.
>And let's not forget the obvious : You don't necessarily need Armed Citizen to have a good or BETTER society.
I'd argue that it does, actually. Without them, there is no effective means of self-defense and no guarantee the government won't subjugate you. Not in a tyrant style of kingdoms past, but in an overbearing security-over-liberty accidental dictatorship.
>>13984954
/m/ has no mods, and it isn't exactly uncommon.
>>13984950
Got a link? Not that I'm disagreeing, but I'd like to read it.
Words for the words god !
>>13984657
> I meant further government intervention
No such things as "minimal intervention" either. When an organization enforce a rule you can't quantify how much they are intervening in a meaningful way (ex : solve problem once and keep it from reappearing).
> but you act like it's impossible to rise in a business structure. It's not autocratic and merit is absolutely noticed.
I never said that.
Yet, today (almost) every business ARE autocratic : Authority goes top-down and if "deserving" shareholders shaped the system so your merit is downplayed, there's nothing you can do except pray for a Invisible Hand Of the Market to go AGAINST the market (as it is currently).
The "If Boss weren't worthy the system would crumble" argument fail to account that when brewing millions of dollars, stealing 1% for oneself and cheating others of 5% will keep the boat floating yet unfair. It can even float better per your own criteria.
> The government [...] should make sure the system is fair enough to allow people to find success.
As said : mutually exclusive goals.
We want a fair system, yet peoples keep voting rules to favor themselves over others
> I don't get what you mean by this. It seems to me you're advocating that such an amendment should be updated to [...]
More like ADAPT one's right, but you got it.
If you don't NEED guns (anymore), and (now) they cause more problems than they solves, it's time to change (if you can).
btw : please spare me essay about "armed citizen are still needed right now in this hand-picket context", that's circular logic
> Without them, there is no effective means of self-defense
Not letting anybody have guns-that-overcome-other-means-of-self-defense-including-itself, is a demonstrated effective means of self-defense.
...unless you are telling me gun have built-in systems so they can only be used for self-defense and rightful dictator-toppling.
>>13984954
I added analogy to Matrix and transhumanism, that's /m/.
>>13984950
On the other hand, it's shrinking because more of the world is actually getting money and the world's population of poor is shrinking. There's more rich people and less poor people in the first world and around the world according to all the metrics and people have measured to check (http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/world-poverty/). I would be interested in how they checked that statistic of a growing gap though.
>>13983716
>Wrong logic to me. Nuclear Bomb are the finest in military-grade weapon, should we sell the "weak" C4, Tank and Gunship ?
Private citizens in the US can indeed own armored vehicles, explosives, and even fighter jets.
And back in the days of the Revolution, private citizens owned the equivalent of warships, and used them against the British.
Lewis and Clark also had access to a Ghirandoni Air rifle, a semiautomatic, 20 shot, rifle.
>>13986081
Sure, but you don't have access to combat-capable armored tank and gunship so they are just very armored civilian vehicle.
You just know that if we could, mega corp like Google could field their own army.
>>13986098
its perfectly legal to own a tank with a working cannon, as long as you register it with the BATF as a DD (destructive device) , and as long as you register each individual shell as its own DD. At least thats what I remember.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnhqLt1zAgQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxN0WfFKLRU
>>13987855
Libertarian : "How dare they make me do paper work to keep my custom Congress-Buster tank ! The government is stiffing us just like they forbid me from creating my own state on my private ranch !"
>>13990074
Exactly, each citizen should be able to own what their government owns.
Is the book good?
>>13996706
No.
>>13971768
>Culturally insensitive
Of all the failings to criticize it for, you picked that?
>>13984576
>Subnormality
Crawl on back to Tumblr.
>>13992269
I "own" a country and a government that I let govern me and millions of vassal through more or less democratic methods.
I use both to keep stupid moron from acquiring the means to kill, let alone wipe out mankind.
And there's nothing you can do about it.
>>13971750
>I think it'd be more interesting for the two cultures to merge and create a hybrid value system that stems from the occupying nation having the foresight to realize that getting along with the locals is a good idea.
nigga you're just asking for another SAZ massacre.
>>13992269
I don't agree and I say that as someone who opposes gun control. As long as the population has enough firepower to make it extremely hard or impossible for the government to forcibly occupy private areas (as in start raiding houses or set up a police state) then we're fine. No need to have a tank when IEDs work against them just fine. Besides, the military will always be made up of the people. They would sooner turn against the gov't than us. As long as the military doesn't start to function like a PMC then we're fine.
>>14000112
>no need
>need
T R I G G E R E D
>>14000602
Anarchy ain't free. Citizens in conflicts that require military intervention would lead to more government power. I want to say SHALL in confidence but I think minor (and cheaper) regulations should be on FA/select fire weapons. For sure less than we have now but since the mass-shooting meme began I don't trust them not to be the go-to mass shooter weapon. Shit sucks and until mass-shootings are forgotten (because statistically they shouldn't be enough to change the laws, but as long as it's on the news people will think to imitate it as their last act), auto weapons should be generally kept quiet and over time be slowly reintroduced into the private sector, starting with "historic" weapons, aka anything that doesn't look too close to an AK type or look like a long black assault rifle. I think over time the mass shootings will decrease to one every few years instead of multiple per year and by then having an automatic weapon won't be such a big deal. The killers aren't lurking political news hoping we'll deregulate a weapon, but when we start a huge discussion over it then the idea is planted. It's a shame there isn't a way to prevent it from happening in the first place without giving the gov't that much more power but I'd rather have a little more freedom than a little more security.
tl;dr As long as mass shooting is an idea in the public mind there will be pushes for gun control, and as long as there are pushes for gun control we cannot start deregulating autos without it getting thrust into the public eye, and if they're thrust into the public eye then the wrong people will get ideas, which will lead to gun control backlash. I wish it weren't so.
>>14000777
We should just ban autism.
And bowlcuts.
>>14000983
Lots of well-meaning Asians have bowl cuts. I think the autism is good enough.
>>14001595
Its a scientific fact that shitty haircuts are the number one cause of mass shootings.
>>14001605
Number one ? I though it was that video game of Jack Thompson mass killing game developers to end mass murder ?
Obligatory post
>>14000777
>It's a shame there isn't a way to prevent it from happening
because NORMIES KEEP FUCKING THINGS UP REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
