Honor in battle
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Was I the only one who really liked the Epyon and it's ''fuck those cowards I'll show them'' attitude?
Say Gundam Build Fighters was real, would anyone actually use an Epyon with just the standard equipment and no modifications like adding Vulcans, funnels or beam rifles?
Considering fists are the only weapon that matter in GBF, yes.
>>13914479
Honor aside, it's one fuck ugly thing. Even uglier when transformed. The Cancer itself wasn't this bad.
>>13914479
> add
> vulcans
It already has vulcans or machine cannons in the final fight, you don't need to add shit. Besides which, they're really more of an anti-personnel or anti-missile weapon, which is kind of sensible and has jack and shit to do with honor. Or are you suggesting that Trieze deal with missiles by blowing them up 2 foot from his face using a saber or whip? I know the Epyon would survive it, but it's still just being silly to do so.
>>13914547
>already has vulcans
White fang added the vulcans but it wasn't in treize's original design and they are only used once.
>Trieze deal with missiles by blowing them up 2 foot from his face using a saber or whip
He could as the saber can be adjusted manually thanks to being hooked up directly to the Epyon's generator. Not that would be his only option though, as he can just dodge them easily with the Epyon system.
It's a weapon that's meant to be symbolic far more than it's meant to be practical.
>>13914535
ITS A FUCKING DRAGON OF WRATH AND ITS GOT A SUPERHUGE LIGHTSABER YOU SHUT YOUR GODDAMN MOUTH
>>13914479
No, because it's completely fucking retarded.
If you're in a military conflict and are employing deadly force you should be using the method that ends the threat to yourself, your comrades and to mission accomplishment as quickly as possible without that force itself posing a threat to yourself, your comrades or to mission accomplishment.
Attacking someone with a close combat weapon isn't more "honorable" than attacking someone with a gun if it's not actually the best choice available, it's stupid and exposes you and those around you to danger.
It's tactically, logically and morally unsound.
>>13914678
It had Zero System. Thats the only thing that mattered. It could have been a Leo with Zero System and Zechs would have won with it.
>>13914678
>it's stupid and exposes you and those around you to danger.
But that's why it's honorable.
Honor and reason are kinda polar opposites, putting yourself in danger for the sake of personal glory is seen as honorable, a quick win isn't.
>>13914479
Epyon is probably one of my Top 10 favorite mecha. It's edgelord design made an impression in my young mind.
Would I use it in a serious Gunpla Battle? Probably not. There are tons of other Gundam designs I'd go with before Epyon.
If I had to use it, I'd probably go barebones with standard stuff we see in the anime. The reason being that you probably couldn't design a ranged weapon that would be effective against the high-level Gunpla in show without hampering its inherent strengths of speed and close-quarters combat. I'd probably take the same approach Nils did with his Sengoku Astray.
>>13914711
>Would I use it in a serious Gunpla Battle? Probably not.
Slap it with F91 superspeed or 00's TRANSAM and you'll reach top 8 in any Gunpla tournament guaranteed.
>Say Gundam Build Fighters was real, would anyone actually use an Epyon with just the standard equipment and no modifications like adding Vulcans, funnels or beam rifles?
Somebody would use it, but they wouldn't win shit.
If Gunpla Battle were real, there wouldn't be convenient scriptwriting to even the playing field, and you'd have to deal with the fact that some weapons and features are more effective than others. All the high level battlers that actually win championships would end up having somewhat similar shit, and people would whine that cool original designs never win. Because there's no rule of cool in real life.
>>13914720
>>13914687
Shouldn't it also be made of GUNDAMIUN ALLOY FROM OUTER SPACE?
>>13914678
Holy shit shut the fuck you massive faggot
>>13914727
>tfw everyone in the pro scene would just use a different colored variant of the Strike Freedom
>>13914728
WHAAAT?
>>13914744
BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE ENEMY MOBILE SUITS?
>>13914743
Kira pls not this again
>>13914727
>>13914720 this is your answer
>>13914693
Honor is some made up abstract bullshit that winners brag about and losers whine about.
>>13914687
Can you even use the zero system gimmick in a gunpla battle? I don't think so.
>>13914837
>implying
Only the most evolved brains can handle the Zero System without severe feedback. Look at the source material - out of an Earth Sphere of at least ten million people, only two individuals could use it and still retain their sanity.
>>13914799
My point is that if TRANSAM really is that good, then everyone would use it. Any feature that gives you a huge advantage would be on every competent build, as a result most top tier builds would be similar and matches would be decided by details or skill. Which sounds exciting, but fans would complain that it's boring to always see the same kind of Gunpla fighting each other all the time. People would end up creating formats or leagues where certain things are banned.
It would be like competitive Pokemon or something. Building your Gunpla would be like building your team and movesets, some things would be overused for how dominating they are.
>>13914687
It's not honorable, in any way, to behave arbitrarily because you think stabbing people is cooler than shooting them or you think exposing yourself to harm for no reason makes you a badass.
That's the exact opposite of how a person should actually behave if they want to not die, not get their friends killed and actually get their job done.
Things that are actually honorable are things like preventing unnecessary loss of life, providing medical aid to wounded enemy forces left behind after combat, rescuing survivors of destroyed enemy ships etc. Things that are actually good, not things you think make you look cool.
>>13914693
>putting yourself in danger for the sake of personal glory is seen as honorable
Without a logical reason for doing so (like throwing yourself on a grenade to save your buddies), that's just being selfish and dumb.
>>13914711
Mix it with the psycommu system of the Turn-X so that it can split in to several parts each of which can fire a cannon, including best of all, it's feet - which could still double as dragon heads which fire cannons in dragon mode.
>>13914687
Of course, that then raises other questions of honor/fair play when you're using a game changer like that and most of your opponents aren't.
Then again, Wing's whole fixation on honor and nobility always struck me as kind of weirdly naive and anachronistic in a way.
>>13914479
>Say Gundam Build Fighters was real, would anyone actually use an Epyon with just the standard equipment and no modifications like adding Vulcans, funnels or beam rifles?
I'm pretty sure there are people who do things like "basic gear only runs" or other related stuff (happens more times than I'd like for it to in Warframe). It'll just be like such a run in any other video game.
Only difference is that you don't see too many PvP/tournament players doing that because they're usually playing for meta and keeps, not because of these sort of "fun runs". I don't see why you wouldn't be able to find someone in the neighbourhood Gunpla shop running all-melee setups on any suits, not just the Epyon.
>>13915115
What, Wufei crying about how Oz has no honor while blowing up their soldiers as they sleep and the show not painting it as even the slightest bit hypocritical or silly didn't set you off?Well, it didn't set 15 year old me off, but then, I was mostly in it for Heero, Duo, Trieze and the mechs/fights, while Wufei could hang for all I cared.
I really should re-watch Wing someday, I haven't seen it in over 15 years at this point.
>>13915126
> all melee Heavyarms
> each of the missile racks is just filled with beam sabers that can all activate at once to skewer enemies in front of him or be "thrown" out individually
> the main gatlings replaced by huge ass swords
> the chest gatlings replaced by a rack of anchors to entangle enemies
>>13914678
You make good points, but OP said GBF implying that this would've been for a Gunpla battle not fighting a war nor some other life-threatening situation.
>>13915154
What about all those people who thought honor was firing pistols at dawn then? Honor can mean whatever you want it too, because it's a completely personal and subjective idea.
>>13915101
I don't think a Psycommu would fit in the Epyon frame. A Psycommu-equpped MS tends to be a big guy -- usually upwards of 20m or more. Epyon is comparatively manlet sized at just over 17m.
>>13915166
What about it?
Your statement is completely beside the point in the post you replied to.
No, I'd use a Turn A and just moonlight butteryfly everyone to death
>>13914829
Says someone that's never won a fight.
>>13914952
The problem is you're not seeing it from a warrior culture's POV. Glory is in itself a good enough reason.
>>13915166
>What about all those people who thought honor was firing pistols at dawn then
That's because dueling in that instance is done in defense of your personal honor.
It's why duels had things like explicit rules.
>>13915222
Did you miss the part where I specified both winners and losers?
>kill all of a town's guards, steal its crops and rape its women
>WE HAVE SO MUCH HONOR HUE HUE HUE
>get owned by some archers with crossbows
>THEY HAVE NO HONOR, COME DOWN HERE AND FIGHT US LIKE MEN
>>13915195
Psycommu is all about miniaturization and is basically just a sheet of shit to wrap around the internals and nothing more.
>>13915203
The point is that you could have someone playing honorably using a gun if they wanted, so long as they acted in what they thought was an honorable manner regardless of the stakes involved.
>>13915222
I recall reading up on the Homeric ideals of glory and honor and what inspired those ideals, that people sought glory in battle because unlike the gods who were immortal and didn't need to seek glory, humans could die and so dying in battle was the only way they knew of at the time to obtain fame, glory and as they saw it, immortality via ballads, statues and legend. It's pretty interesting stuff to read up on and think about.
>>13915234
You say that like those 2 statements are somehow contradictory. Unless they themselves killed those town guards with crossbows themselves, how did they say anything wrong?
>>13915222
>a warrior culture's POV.
There's a reason why there are no nations centered around a warrior culture still in existence in the first-world anymore. Sooner or later they get stamped into obscurity by a superior society.
>>13915241
It's not just dying in battle, it's dying with meaning in general.
In the long term, humans live pitifully short lives. Like Carl Sagan said, the entire history of humanity would be less than the last minute of the day that is the universe's life. People feel the need to make their mark on the world because of how short we're on it.
>>13915249
It's less that and more that all the big ones still around were severely limited in capacity through the two world wars and then had to deal with a very different post-ww2 world. Also being the prevailing society does not mean you're the superior one in any moral, cultural, or even economic sense. It's entirely possible you just got lucky.
>>13915252
Battle was the only meaning people could conceive of at the time though, or at least, the only meaning with any lasting impression. It wasn't till the Ionians and maybe even Plato's time that Greek's really began to consider otherwise.
>>13915263
>Also being the prevailing society does not mean you're the superior one in any moral, cultural, or even economic sense. It's entirely possible you just got lucky.
To wit, the Russo-Japanese War. Both sides fought hard, and the Japanese (who were seen as a rather backwards, primitive society compared to one as old and respected as Russia) won a lot of naval battles. The thing is they completely exhausted their entire nation's supply doing so, and if Russia held out for just a month longer (which they had the ability to easily), they would have forced an unconditional surrender out of Japan. But Russia didn't know about Japan's supply situation, and just fucking pulled out. because they thought both sides would be fighting for years longer (and the war was rather unpopular in Russia). So Japan won, on a fluke and bad guessing.
>>13915249
There's a reason why the phrase "Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't" endures.
>>13915241
>Psycommu is all about miniaturization and is basically just a sheet of shit to wrap around the internals and nothing more.
Is this what you think Psycommu is? 'Cause I can tell you that that's wrong.
>>13915284
>endures
Pretty sure that version of the phrase is only like 30 years old.
>>13915284
You must be from >>>/k/
>>13915297
It's what the psycoframe is, and the psycoframe is just an evolved version of the psycommu. By the time of Turn-X it's become efficient enough that even non-newtypes can use it and is almost certainly at least as miniaturized as the psycoframe (which was just a new name for the same concept from what I can tell) if not more so.
>>13914888
Thanks for reminding me how cancerous meta is.
>>13915130
I'm watching Wing NOW, and after 40 episodes, Wufei feels like a completely pointless character after getting owned bySally.
>>13915310
Ehhh...close enough.
Psycommu at its simplest concept is the system used for translating brainwaves into data code that could be interpreted by a machine. Early uses of psycommu were very big which is why we only saw them in large mobile weapon platforms like the Zeong and Elmeth.
The psycoframe is just an evolution of the application of the psycommu. Instead of a separate system for the psycommu, it was built right into the frame of the MS. The benefit was two-fold: It reduced the extra bulk needed and helped the newtype pilot control the MS better than a non-psycoframe psycommu. Psycoframe MS were still fairly large like Nu and Sazabi.
>>13915217
>he hasn't seen GBFT
The Turn-A build in the show didn't use MB which suggest that it's not a viable tactic in Gunpla battle.
>>13915655
>Early uses of psycommu were very big which is why we only saw them in large mobile weapon platforms like the Zeong and Elmeth
The system itself wasn't large. Psycommu Zaku prototypes were no larger than a standard Zaku in height and not really bulkier except for the weapons.
>The benefit was two-fold: It reduced the extra bulk needed and helped the newtype pilot control the MS better than a non-psycoframe psycommu. Psycoframe MS were still fairly large like Nu and Sazabi.
That makes no sense. We are shown that the psycoframe material is built into the panoramic cockpit wall. Why the fuck is the rest of the machine so big then when it doesn't incorporate psycoframe in the rest of the body?
The only reason that psycommu equipped machines are large is that by its very nature, a psycommu-equipped machine is a special unit that should be equipped with a lot of powerful weapons and have high specs so as to improve the machine's fighting ability and make use of the pilot's ability to direct and manage lots of weapons at once.
Psycommu and psycoframe has little point to be installed on a small MS with minimal weaponry. Rather, it's a technology that allows the pilot to better handle larger and more complex suits and weapons. It has nothing to do with whether the MS is large enough to accommodate the computer system.
>>13916478
the Turn X did use moonlight butterfly and it was shot down by machine guns
>>13914479
a green and gold epyon that was part of the jilted boyfriends group was present during the giant free-for-all battle that included space and earth environment, it survived for a while thanks to hit and run tactics but got blown up in a single shot when the user was distracted
>>13914479
If GBF was real, I'll use Barbatos modified with Trans-Am and Exia's SSS instead
>>13916535
They're inconsistent. There's a bunch of MSV/spinoff material around Psyco Gundam implying it's huge because it has huge psycommu guts but then the real reason Psyco Gundam is huge is because it's a fucking Perfect Zeong in Gundam form.
Psycommu Zakus don't really work for shit so there's not a lot that can be said definitively from them.
>>13916535
> Psycommu Zaku prototypes were no larger than a standard Zaku in height and not really bulkier except for the weapons.
MSV generally not considered canon. As far as the animations are concerned, psycommu Zaku never happened.
> Why the fuck is the rest of the machine so big then when it doesn't incorporate psycoframe in the rest of the body?
Probably because the psycoframe is only a part of the psycommu system of whatever machine was being used in -- not a self-contained system.
FYI, by 0094, psycommu technology had advanced enough to have led to the development of a psycoframe being used as the frame of the Gundam itself with the Unicorn.
>>13916692
Unicorns frame isn't made of paychoframe. It just has sections of psychoframe layered on top.
>>13916632
Wasn't the reason that psyco gundam was huge because it had a minovsky craft system?
>>13914547
It doesn't have vulcans or machinecannons. That one time in the final battle where Epyon fires bullets (from offscreen) at Wing Zero is an animation mistake.
>>13914641
That was a retcon made many, many years after the series release.
>>13914479
Honestly, if Build Fighters was real, Epyon wouldn't need Vulcans. It would come with the reactor overload attack it has from Endless Duel.
>>13914678
>Attacking someone with a close combat weapon isn't more "honorable" than attacking someone with a gun if it's not actually the best choice available,
The biggest problem with thinking that way toward Epyon is that it was in fact the best choice available.
It had a an adjustable length beam saber (That could get big enough to chop up a space station) that was plugged into the generator so it will never run out of power.
That is literally the best weapon in the setting. You do not need anything else. Why bother with guns which can run out of power or ammo and be disarmed, when you have the Epyon saber.
Now if Trieze gave it a crappy Leo saber and said "There, go be honorable with that" that would be something, but he made the honorable weapon one of the most effective in the setting.
This is ignoring the Zero System and Epyon's output and power being the contender for strongest mobile suit active.
Epyon is not a handicap in any way.
>>13916632
MSV writeup mentions that the psycommu zakus were failures for low combat endurance and lack of speed, not because the psycommu systems didn't work in such a small body.
as for psyco gundam, I see it being large because it's meant to be a weapon of terror, not necessarily because it had to be that big to fit a psycommu system.
>>13916692
qubeley houses a normal psycommu and isn't large (18.4m head height), the shoulders are only large for AMBAC purposes and the rest of the body's "bulk" are either aesthetic (pointy legs and knees) or bit storage (tail). it's not as though they needed to store psycommu computer parts in the tips of the shoulders, knees, and feet.
besides, CCA's dialogue tells us that they shrank down the psycommu so it could be built into the material that makes up cockpit walls, so it actually is self-contained inside the cockpit for the sazabi and nu. did you also forget the scene where chan's small psycoframe sample is able to bring out her weak latent newtype ability and shoot down rezin's geara doga?
it isn't until sinanju and by extension the unicorn gundams that they decide to spread the psycoframe into the rest of the suit's body, the sinanju only having partial psycoframe and the unicorns having full body psycoframe.
>>13916711
>Psyco is big because of Minovsky Craft
Partially correct. The real reason is that plus the I-Field generator, plus all the weapons, plus (when plot doesn't allow it to be bypassed) heavy armor.
The true reason it has a Psycommu system installed is, as >>13916535 has already mentioned, is to provide a way to handle all the separate systems much faster and better than one would be able to with computer-assisted controls.
>>13916739
Low combat endurance and lack of speed conceivably have to due with psycommu bulk resulting in a lack of thrust, fuel, and cooling.
Qubeley is leagues more advanced than anything created in the Earth sphere when it shows up and managed to miniaturize bits to an absurd size, but that does bring up the Queen Mantha that definitely doesn't need to be Zeong sized.
The conclusion is probably that early newtype weapons are large because usable remotes were enormous until funnels were invented, anyways.
A Zaku just can't carry around two extra decent sized reactors and all that fuel effectively.
>>13916739
>qubeley houses a normal psycommu and isn't large
True, but the Qubeley is a heavy guy -- over 35 tons in it's bare bones form -- compared other psycommu-equipped suits of regular size which run about 30 tons or less.
>>13916803
I imagine the 5 extra tons comes from the oversized pointy armor and the 7~10 funnels it carries on the back of the skirt
>>13915130
>What, Wufei crying about how Oz has no honor while blowing up their soldiers as they sleep and the show not painting it as even the slightest bit hypocritical or silly didn't set you off?
Except Wufei himself knows it's hypocritical which is why he snaps at the end of the episode. That was Wufei's character. He had to do some shit he was against because he felt he was weak.
>>13916818
It could be, but it's not like other psycommu MS don't have their share of fins, funnels, and whatnots and still squeeze the scale less than a Qubeley.
If anything I'd imagine Qubeley's extra lard comes from it's AMBAC system judging by how grossly large it's binders are. But it could just be its psycommu.
>>13916855
Qubeley is an oddball MS made in pretty much a vacuum anyways, they may just not have followed the weight reduction trend going on around Earth.
Gaza-C comes across as a spy coming back and telling them transforming MS are the new big thing and them crapping one out to show they can too (and mass produce them no less) without any of the technology to make it work. (the thing is flimsier than a Methuss despite superiour materials, it's really quite impressively shit) During the Neo-Zeon war they seemed to follow a lot of dead development directions as well, so the idea they weren't quite in sync with other MS designers seems reasonable.
>>13914837
If you could use the zero system I'd imagine it would handle like how it does in Gundam VS and Dynasty Warriors Gundam Reborn: a buff that increases your attack speed.
>>13916855
>If anything I'd imagine Qubeley's extra lard comes from it's AMBAC system judging by how grossly large it's binders are.
If we're being honest, it's Nagano being a silly twit.
>>13914837
Zero System would be amusing in the context of GBFT.
>Activate Zero System
>See your gunpla getting wrecked by twenty different versions of Jegan How Are You
>>13914479
>>13914711
>>13914720
Did you fucking SEE that Epyon that showed up in GBF? Shit was a beast it was so fast, only lost because it got distracted.
>>13918519
Ep is still on Youtube in fact.
https://youtu.be/4cVf3hYuHCM?t=21m45s
>>13916877
Gaza-C ended up being shit because they just shoved it onto a construction ms frame that wasn't originally intended for it + sloppy manufacturing resulting in frame defects. The gaza-D was properly designed from the ground up and had none of the gaza-C's issues.
>>13914479
>Honour
>In battle
>>13914535
>Even uglier when transformed.
Transforming the Epyon, what a pleb
>>13915130
>What, Wufei crying about how Oz has no honor while blowing up their soldiers as they sleep and the show not painting it as even the slightest bit hypocritical or silly didn't set you off?
I think that was the overall point of gundam wing. It explored a kind of 1800s meets the future kind of thing. Like, what would Napoleon think of the development of drones.
Zechs was the only one that had his head on straight, but he spent half the show depressed that he couldn't live up to his dad's Liberal ideals.
>>13914479
Why not use Tallgeese III instead? Then you have a super-powerful ranged weapon as well as the close-combat weapons.
>>13914889
You're looking at this from a practical standpoint and not from the "honor-starved, thrill-seeking duelist" standpoint.
In case you hadn't noticed, the culture that Treize and Zechs grew up in is heavily geared towards intense sharpening of skill and prowess, but possibly moreso, the idea of sportsmanship, and it's something drilled into them from a very, very young age, a stark contrast to the opportunistic and practical approach the Gundam pilots tend to have. The Gundam Epyon is an expression of Treize's views on how a real warrior fights; if they lose in one of the most advanced mobile suits of it's time simply because they couldn't pew pew or dakka, then they didn't deserve to win anyway.
>>13927529
>No Zero System
>No Dragon mode
>No gigantic beam saber
>No Gundam
>>13927586
Why stop at just melee weapons, why not just get out of the suit and fight with a sword instead? Treize's logic is immensely flawed.
>>13927872
that kind of idiocy only works on wufei
>>13914479
for elitist tourny fags, of course.
just like the ol' "no items fox only final destination" shit but with epyon instead.
>>13914754
YOU'RE SAYING
REDUCE THE FORCES?
>>13927892
I hate games that end up too meta. I just wanna have fun and play my favorite characters without dealing with
>not wavedashing
>can't even do a 60% combo followed by a sweet spot strike
>lel that character is so low tier bro why even bother hahaha
>why would you ever use that weapon don't you know that X has +7 dps over it and if you do a super combo then you knock them down holy shit you're retarded
>not picking elf sorcerer and building with this exact premade skill set I found online, I mean do you WANT to have less than a 20:3 w/l ratio in PvP you scrub
Fuck /v/. I want to be able to play the characters, mecha and races that I like. Sage for off-topic but I guess Gundam Breaker is kind of the same way with objectively best builds.
>>13914479
Why not Tallgeese III? Best of both worlds...
>>13914829
See this is why Joseph Joestar is awesome. He figured that if they are trying get him, he'll end them first. By any and all means.
>>13914673
YOU TELL HIM, BOSS! DON'T NOBODY BAD MOUTH THAT BEAUTIFUL SON OF A BITCH
>>13927872
Because it looks cool.
>>13927990
You are a complete retard. /v/ is dogshit at any """""""""""""competitive"""""""""""""""" game, especially fighting games.
>>13927872
Practicality of the entire logic aside, their honor is about facing the enemy on an equal platform.
It's not like the enemy will get out of their MSes to fight them on foot; are Treize and Zechs supposed to turn up in fencing gear in the middle of Earth orbit to face off against Wufei in Altron and Heero in Wing Zero? Despite the fine line, there is still a difference between stupidly honorable and just plain stupid.
>>13914857
It's because they were already brutal killing machines. A child soldier who endured training from hell, jumped out of a skyscraper and shrugging it of, who can bend steel with his bare hands, and severe PTSD, and on the other side we have a man haunted by his past, who sees himself as a contradiction and wants to end it all by ending everything, who is also a decorated war veteran who invented modern day MS combat...
>>13933142
>their honor is about facing the enemy on an equal platform.
Then that completely negates the reasoning behind Epyon's standard loadout since the enemy will probably being using plenty of munitions. It's like they are purposely giving Epyon a pointless handicap by not allowing it to have any ranged weaponry.
>>13933245
Equal platform, not equal capabilities.
There's a difference. You and your opponent are represented by a jet fighter aircraft each, pilot included. You're flying an F-4; your opponent is in an F-22A.
Same platform. You're both in jet fighter aircraft. Different capabilities; your opponent can slam you into next Friday before you even see the dot in the sky that is the F-22A.
Hey, I never said that Treize's base logic was pragmatic. Only that even the most honor-seeking person has some concessions that they have to make when the enemy they face is not even in the same strategic group as them if they want to keep showing off that sense of honor of theirs. Modern warfare is all about matching tactics and not playing the game of your opponents; if the enemy is in a fighter you either chase them with your own fighter or radio in a SAM site to do the shooting for you.
A hot shot can choose to chase with guns only if he/she wants; that's the Epyon to other MSes. But at least do the chasing in another plane, not on foot.
>>13933300
>Only that even the most honor-seeking person has some concessions that they have to make when the enemy they face is not even in the same strategic group as them if they want to keep showing off that sense of honor of theirs.
Still doesn't explain how Epyon or other CQB/melee-focused MS is any more "honorable" than any other MS.
Epyon is probably better equipped to handle close-quarters combat than most other MS and therefore is superior to the enemy in that regard even without the Zero System. Where's the honor in beating an opponent that is not equipped enough to have a good chance in those circumstances?
>>13933341
Treize built it according to his personal definition of honor to represent his rejection of ranged warfare; more importantly, however, was Treize rejecting the spread of MDs as a battle concept since they're just a stack of mass-produced automatically-firing guns. He even leads the final battle in the Tallgeese II which has a beam gun and beam sabres; by that point in time Epyon was not so much as representative of his views as it was a weapon that had simply been passed to Zechs, and it would be Zech's turn to make something out of it if he so chose to.
I'll reiterate myself: I never said that Treize's base logic was pragmatic. Honor itself changes culture to culture, person to person. The "purest" representation of equal honor VS MDs would be Treize in a Virgo modified for a cockpit , but by your parameters, it's still "unfair" because MDs don't have the associated skills of a human pilot on their side and it's therefore "dishonorable".
Dueling would be, by your limits, not at all honorable since it's impossible to find two exact opponents with the exact parameters. That's not what honor is about. Honor for all is not pulling out a gun when you've agreed to fight with swords only. Honor for you is not breaking the rule of no-guns when your opponent has already pulled out theirs. Pulling your own out isn't dishonorable in this case but no one would say "he's so honorable for pulling out a gun" afterwards, because the situation has already been shifted to pragmatism.
Doubling back on "'ranged enemy = handicap for Epyon' to say that say the melee-based Epyon is the one being 'dishonorable'" aside, I don't think there's a point in me attempting to continue to try and answer. By all accounts any view you have on the matter seems to be locked to looking at it through the lens of pragmatism; in that case you either get it or you don't with regards to the whole concept of "honor".
>>13918543
God I forgot how much fun this show is.
I might rewatch it all.
>>13933409
>Dueling would be, by your limits, not at all honorable since it's impossible to find two exact opponents with the exact parameters.
Huh? Traditional dueling is indeed honorable since both parties would have agreed upon the terms before the actual fight takes place. More over, the dueling parties usually use the same type of weapon (often a matching set). Using your analogy, an MS specialized in one area of combat like Epyon with another MS that isn't as good would be like one duelist using a sword with a crossguard while the other guys' sword doesn't have one.
Trying to justify Epyon as being a more honorable because it doesn't rely on range weaponry is flawed logic. In the end, Epyon wasn't built as some greater quest for honor no matter how you try to justify it. It was just Treize's pet project -- nothing more.
>>13914678
Ah, hello /k/! I was wondering when you'd join in on this discussion.
>>13933678
He's not wrong, though.
If you're in a position where you can simply shoot something, why issue a challenge for close combat?
One point that seems to have been only indirectly touched on so far is the influence of
>muh Japanese honor
>muh superior Japanese swords
on this ethos.
One could probably look at Wing, to some extent, as a clash of Eastern vs Western values:
>guns vs hand-to-hand
>dueling vs large battles
>the influence of individuals vs the influence of groups
Just thought I'd drop this in here.
>>13933471
>In the end, Epyon wasn't built as some greater quest for honor no matter how you try to justify it
Was it even stated in series as that being the reason Epyon had only melee? I can't remember.
I mean the closest I can see if Epyon being a counter against the push button style of war that the MD's were causing, in that not only does it need a pilot, it needs a pilot willing to get into the thick of things instead of hanging back and shooting.
But that's not said either.
>>13934227
>Was it even stated in series as that being the reason Epyon had only melee? I can't remember.
Epyon had the vulcans in its head noggin, but are never effective at range against another MS.
>>13934227
The nature of Eoyon's design and combat style is more symbolic than practical. Its debatable whether it was built with the intention of ever seeing real combat.
>>13927990
I think the worst game I ever played in this regard was Starcraft, where if you don't know how to meta you'll get creamed in less than a minute, which isn't even enough time to figure out what you're doing wrong.
