Which would win in fight:
Mobile suit or Variable fighter from Macross.
Much gracias.
heh. heh. Bueno.
witch ones??
>>13673525
Any and all, I wanted to leave it an open discussion.
>bueno
spic confirmed dont even bother discussing
>>13673554
seriously? there are literally thousands of MS and dozens of VF across decades of series throughout multiverses, you cant just say any vs. any.
either way the answer is Macross aside from maybe 4-5 MS, a VF-1 outperforms 99% of mobile suits an essentially nothing comes close to the speed and firepower of something like a YF-29.
>>13673564
That's why I wanted to leave it an open discussion. What do you think would make for an interesting match up?
I mean for base line sake lets say vf-0(Or whatever the one from macross zero is called) vs rx-78.
>>13673559
Nah, bueno is just fun to say.
>>13673515
fucking beans i swear
if its anything post-Macross Plus, even the average Gundam is dead.
>>13673627
>>13673622
>Bueno
>>13673633
You don't think V2(Or anything with wings of light) or Turn A or X for that matter with their infinite energy potential could take on later VF? I'd like to see that fight.
anything short of Turn A and X are fucked
>>13673663
>V2
If it can keep up with a VF's speed, sure. But a battle between a VF and the V2 would effectively be a VF vs VF-stuck-in-battroid-form. The V2 can't take hits like other Gundams. It would boil down to whoever gets a hit in first. I doubt the V2's pilot can handle the Gs from the wings of light being permanently turned on though, Gundam don't usually fight in such high speed fights.
>Turn A/X
They have a high chance of winning thanks to Moonlight Butterfly.
>>13673515
For some reason, the Ez8 in that pic reminds me of the YF-19.
>>13673686
I kinda get what you mean.
>>13673678
I think people aren't really giving enough merit to gundam, or maybe too much merit to VF. I think quite a few MS(Counting MA as well) have a high chance of success.
>>13673707
Valkyries have literal blackhole missiles. Are you fucking serious?
>>13673778
Again, it doesn't always have to be about endgame shit, It could be fun to pair models from both sides to find out which match up makes the most sense.
>Typical Late UC mobile suit: Beam rifle, vulcan guns, beam shield, light armor and focus on speed
>Typical Late Macross Valkyrie: Gunpod loaded with reaction bullets (essentially nuclear bullets), blackhole missiles, pinpoint barrier shields, incredibly fast and maneuverable compared to mobile suit.
Its not even fair.
>>13673796
To be fair, what the typical late UC MS has is pretty much what the VFs had since the beginning.
>gunpod
>laser CIWS
>shield only applies to certain models
>no armor unless Armor Pack
>focus on speed and maneuverability
Gundam started with decently mobile MSs that can take hits and hits hard, then moved to fast MS that cannot take hits and hits hard
Macross started with fast things that cannot take hits and hits hard, and stayed there.
>>13673833
Gundams don't have laser CIWS.Except for Hyaku Shiki Kai.
Could the sound force take on MS? ;)
>>13673796
they weren't nuclear bullets, were they? I thought MDE stood for micro dimension eater which meant they acted just like the dimension eater bomb but on a smaller scale
>>13673843
The laser CIWS does almost the same thing as the vulcans.
>>13673778
>black hole missiles
Turn A uses those as a power source. F91 moves so fast it breaks physics (afterimages with MASS?!?!). Don't even get me started on the lolphysics bullshit that God Gundam can pull. The average late model VF may be well above the average Gundam, but the top of Gundam's ladder goes well past the top of Macross. Moonlight Butterfly, time travel, quantum teleportation, shutting down reactors with the wave of a hand, ghost-powered abject invulnerability, etc, etc.
日本のモビルスーツなど勝つだけなら旧式のメックで十分
>>13673833
The VF-0 can apparently take a direct hit from a tank shell and not even have a scratch on it, but it has to divert all power to armor or some shit like that.
Also, according to the Frontier movies, later VFs have their own pinpoint barrier systems. So that's something.
Unless they have authorisation to use reaction or MDE weapons, not VF weapon except perhaps the Lucifer's Beam cannon can pierce the armour of the RX-78-2
>>13673896
>later VFs have their own pinpoint barrier systems
Yeah, that's been a thing since Macross Plus. Gundam has also had those since Zeta iirc. Also things like Reflector Bits and Beam Shields.
>take a direct hit from a tank shell and not even have a scratch, but it has to divert all power to armor
Phase Shift on any SEED unit, doesn't even need to divert all the power, and if its one of the nuclear models it never runs out of power. Strike Freedom, Legend, or Providence would shit all over everything short of a reaction or matter-eater warhead. And since I'm pretty sure those warheads can be destroyed without detonation, they're not exactly a guaranteed win.
>>13673903
Yeah, I'm gonna tend to agree. If a zaku's machinegun can't take down the RX-78 then why would a gunpod? (Unless it was using powerful explosive ammunition or nuclear ammunition)
>>13673930
The Zaku's machine gun is 125mm
The Gundam's Vulcans are 60mm or 80mm depending on model
VF gunpods (from 1 to Messiah) are 55mm
I dont know for sure but it's a safe assumption that the Rockets they use in Gundam are twice or three times as large as micromissiles from macross
And Lasers were made obsolete before the OYW in gundam
Aren't we forgetting that MS are going to have minovsky particles spread across the battlefield? The end result of that would be that the missile spam that VF's tend to use is all but useless and the only weapons that would work would be the machine guns and even then only at close range (once again, thanks to minovsky particle interference with long range targeting).
So in that regard all VF's could do would be to circle around and strafing the MS with their machine guns and hoping that the MS don't hit them with their machine guns or beam weapons. So with a good enough pilot VF's should pose much more than a nuisance for a Mobile Suit.
>>13673975
>*So with a good enough pilot VF's SHOULDN'T pose much more than a nuisance for a Mobile Suit
D'oh
>>13673573
RX-78 doesn't even come close to matching the VF-0. You need to look at F91 absolute bare minimum, anything less and the difference in speed, agility, adaptability, armaments, everything is just incomparable. It's not even in the same ballpark.
VFs are built to fight interstellar-level threats. Mobile suits are built to fight threats on a scale where Jupiter is considered incredibly far away. There is no comparing the two.
>>13673573
Do you just not know shit about either franchise? What is the point of this thread
>>13673988
I've seen every series in both franchise, so what do you think?
Fuck, why do some people have such a hard time thinking about a hypothetical situation and talking about it. Just loosen up and have fun. If you don't like it leave the thread.
>>13673975
>>13673936
>>13673930
Alright, I'm just going to assume that you guys don't know much about Macross so I'll just lay it out for you. First though I just want to say that this isn't a fanboy thing, as I'm actually a bigger Gundam fan than I am a Macross fan, but whatever.
For starters, by Macross Frontier, Valkyrie gunpods carry either Reaction or MDE rounds. So you have your pick between bullets that cause small nuclear explosions or black holes. Minovsky Physics also wont be impacting anything as Valkryie avionics rely on Fold Waves, not Radio Waves. So the Valkyries will have perfectly fine communications and target detection/tracking. They can also be loaded with reaction missiles (stronger than conventional nukes) or giant blackhole missiles. They also frequently mount straight up beam cannons on their armor or fastpacks so they aren't limited just to blackhole bullets. Valkyrie sniper rifles can core 300mm thick destroid armor. They can also control numerous AI Ghost fighters through fold waves, so even funnels aren't much of an advantage. Especially to a valkyrie that can lock onto funnels from beyond visual distance and fire tracking micromissiles at up to 128 targets.
It takes Turn A and Quan-T level bullshit to stand a chance against Valkyries and even then, if the Turn A is powering up its Moonlight butterfly and then eats an entire salvo of MDE blackhole missiles will it be just fine? Who fucking knows.
>>13673928
>Yeah, that's been a thing since Macross Plus. Gundam has also had those since Zeta iirc.
Show me proof that Zeta had anti-matter force fields because you're full of shit.
>>13674021
He can't and wont because he's full of shit.
>>13673903
>>13673930
>>13673936
Caliber doesn't mean shit since gunpods were shown to tear apart zentradi battleships with no problem. And gunpods are essentially rail gun gatling guns. It's all about penetration power. Perfect example would be the Gouf Custom's 35mm machine gun being shown destroying MP Guntanks which have lunar titanium armor. http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/08thmsteam/rx-75.htm
>>13674020
Although it's true that Michael's 55mm sniper rifle can penetrate 300mm Destroid armour, mobile suits are made of materials such as luna titanium and gundarium which can easily deflect 125mm rounds
>>13674051
And Valkyries are made of space metal (yes, that's what it's called) and have been shown shrugging off tank rounds.
>>13674033
Fair enough, although is this based on artistic licence or statistics? I'm guessing the former and I'd be curious to know the latter.
>>13674051
Given that Destroids use SWAG armor to convert reactor power into armor strength I'd definitely say its comparable. Honestly Destroid armor is probably significantly stronger than Gundarium.
http://macross2.net/m3/macrosstechman/tech-gunpod.html the gunpods firepower to aid this discussion
>>13674062
I dont have the gif on me anon but it takes dozens of concentrated barrages to the head from federation MBTs to damage a zaku
>>13674051
>>13674033
>>13674020
Mindlessly spouting gun caliber size is pointless without knowing the type of ammunition, whether they have a warhead, and what kind of velocities are involved.
Also all armor isn't identical, the RX-78's armor was immune to 120mm Zaku machine gun rounds and the RX-79's armor was highly resistant and nearly immune to 175mm magella cannon rounds, whereas mobile suits in Zeta, CCA, and Unicorn which also had gundarium armor (a refined version of luna titanium) were torn to shreds with vulcans, bazooka shells, and MS sized cannon fire.
>>13674076
I've also seen those same tanks destroy Zakus with a single shot in Igloo.
>basaratankingabarrageofmissiles.webm
Holy shit speaking of gunpods, this design makes no sense? Wouldn't all that ammo cook off from the barrel heat?
>>13674076
In the MS Igloo 2 OVA, a Type 61 MBT firing APFSDS rounds at a somewhat short range was able to punch through a Zaku's chest easily. The shots penetrated all the way through and out the backpack.
>>13674078
Already explained that they utilize reaction and MDE rounds. If you want me to produce hard numbers on that, I'd also love to see some concrete info on Gundarium.
>>13674100
You see, Ivan, when make barrel out of boolet, then gun will be of firing faster for less distance to shoot.
>>13674100
No, since bullets are specifically designed to not explode from high temperatures.
>>13674107
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_off
>>13674103
Gunpod rounds don't carry reaction warheads. Reaction weaponry is something that UN/NUNS forces need explicit permission to deploy, and it's only ever been in the form of missiles.
Also, you keep using the incorrect term "blackhole" to refer to MDE bombs.
>>13674107
What does that mean? The propellant inside the casing never ignites?
Basara vs Judau who wins
No gay shit like guns, space magic only
>>13673975
>MS are going to have minovsky particles spread across the battlefield?
Aren't those only doable by ships or specialised MS that are not combat feasible?
>>13674118
>A miniaturization of Dimension Eater technology to such a degree that conventional weapons can be armed with these MDE munitions to be used by variable fighters. Missile warheads, gun pod shells and even beam guns can be modified with micro-dimension eater (MDE) technology to project rapid fire micro-black holes like a pulse.
>>13674132
They can spread all the minovsky particles they like and it wont do shit.
G-reco suits can spread minovsky particles and so can 00 suits
>>13674121
Is this a fight to avoid character development?
>>13674132
All MS spread particles by virtue of having minovsky reactors and minovsky weapons, although ships can also deliberately spread particles to quickly jam communications rather than letting the particles build up over the battle
>>13674118
>Gunpod rounds don't carry reaction warheads.
From the second episode of Frontier.
>>13674152
>All MS spread particles by virtue of having minovsky reactors and minovsky weapons,
Except they don't. Their reactors are too small to spread particles at all.
>>13674153
Reactive =/= reaction, they didnt have reaction clearance from the president then anyway
And supposing they are reaction bullets you cant see the explosions when you watch them shoot can you?
It is all very strange
>>13674121
>Basra
>Orphan child living in a mountain wilderness raised only by a guitar
>Kamille
>Muh mans name
Basara.
>>13674100
>Wouldn't all that ammo cook off from the barrel heat?
And?
It's Macross, they take the soviet approach to their mass-production.
If that gunpod explodes, you replace it with another, we got shit tons of those things being shat out everyday anyway.
>>13674157
Very probable reactive bullets are just explosive ammunition of some sort. Not MDE.
>>13674162
Kind of a huge tactical disadvantage to have your gun blow up mid fight, no?
>>13674163
That was the feeling I got from it as well, since they didnt even mention reactive bullets in 7 or SDF or plus and pseudo-nuclear bullets seem like a big deal
>>13674161
>zentraedi reading comprehension
Judau is also an orphan and he was raised by the power of gundam
>>13674155
>>13674152
It doesn't matter for the discussion anyways as Valkyrie avionics utilize fold waves, not radio waves. Minovsky isn't a factor.
>>13674160
>only one MS from G-Reco
>00 MS which don't even have minovsky particles in universe
>means all MS
Retard.
>>13674164
Eh, the VFs can just fly home and get it replaced. That's one use for their speed.
>>13674167
>Minovsky isn't a factor
Tell that to the V2
>>13674166
Judau isn't autistic enough to win.
>>13674168
If the Grimoire can do it and they always have minovsky up every fight then that means other suits can do it too.
Also GN particles cut off radar
>>13674175
>If the Grimoire can do it and they always have minovsky up every fight then that means other suits can do it too.
Source.
>>13674174
Judau is a newtype which is SUPER autism
>>13674179
But is he autistic enough to sing to space whales and make the whales sing?
MS in G-Reco don't even have minovsky reactors. They're powered by suitcase sized photon batteries.
>>13674182
powa to tha younavas
>>13674184
>minovsky flight
>>13674179
But can he move a mountain?
>>13674189
it doesn't have one, otherwise it wouldn't need a flight platform to fly
>>13674182
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeTlKW8IH0Y
>>13674194
Are we talking about the Grimoire?
>>13674196
I dunno, no one ever said
>>13674193
No but he is in a love triangle
With 5 people
He destroyed macross physics even more than basara did
>>13674201
This is a very stupid discussion
i am correct though
>>13674196
Well, it's safe to assume that not all MS in g-reco have minovsky flight because I'm pretty sure that >>13674194 is right in it needing a flying platform (I haven't watched it in awhile though)
>>13674206
Flight platforms are not just for flight, they are for conserving energy
>>13674204
about what? did you ever say which machine could spread particles?
>>13674209
And for making suicide attempts by minor characters.
>>13673936
Lasers are potentially hundreds of times less powerful in Gundam, it depends how you interpret the crap ass stats they've ended up with. Because on paper the VF1 is 940 times more powerful than the Gundam.
>>13674215
Is there any technobabble to explain why g-forces stop existing in Macross after Plus?
>>13674212
Well that's pretty decisive...
>>13674215
But on paper, Zeta waverider can accelerate a million billion times harder than a VF-1. Therefor it magically wins somehow.
>>13674218
ISCs.
They had to make those things to make anything else faster and more maneuverable than the 19/21/22.
The YF-24 that tested the ISC tech was a failure though.
>>13674212
what does it say? I don't see minovsky (ミノフスキー) anywhere on that diagram
>>13674226
uh, what is ISC?
>>13674218
Overtechnology. DE CULTURE!
>>13674020
Well all that is assuming that fold waves aren't affected by minovsky particles. Because this is all pseudo-scientific nonsense we don't know if Minovsky particles would or would not jam fold waves as well. If they can, then we're back at the same situation.
Anything roughly equal or better than the RX-78's beam rifle should be one-hit-one-kill for a VF and if you factor in newtype pilots, one piloting a decent MS with the RX-78's beam rifle or better should be able to hit a VF before it can score a hit with it's vulkan pod.
>>13674229
When it does that in the show the pilot literally says (spreading minovsky particles)
I think it's right at the start of the first episode when they are chasing Raraiya
>>13674218
>The Inertia Store Converter, ISC or otherwise known as an inertia buffer, is a device or system that links to a Variable Fighters EX-Gear to ease and reduce the forces of gravitational acceleration (G-Forces) that a high-output Variable Fighter and it's pilot suffer during combat maneuvers.
>The ISC works essentially by temporary converts and stores excess inertia or g-forces, which exceed the limits of the pilot's body and the Variable Fighter's airframe, into dimensional distortion field energy. The ISC slowly returns the inertia/g-forces over time thus reducing the strain experienced by both the pilot and the Variable Fighter.
Honestly though we're at the point where street legal sports cars are more powerful than Bandai currently says a Zaku is so fuck if those numbers make any sense.
>>13674233
>The Inertia Store Converter, ISC or otherwise known as an inertia buffer, is a device or system that links to a Variable Fighters EX-Gear to ease and reduce the forces of gravitational acceleration (G-Forces) that a high-output Variable Fighter and it's pilot suffer during combat maneuvers. The ISC works essentially by temporary converts and stores excess inertia or g-forces, which exceed the limits of the pilot's body and the Variable Fighter's airframe, into dimensional distortion field energy. The ISC slowly returns the inertia/g-forces over time thus reducing the strain experienced by both the pilot and the Variable Fighter. As the limiting factor of acceleration is less of an issue, this allows a human pilot to at last realize the full potential of their variable fighter, beyond the normal limits of manned combat maneuvering.
>>13674229
The text says it's a photon radiator.
>>13673981
>RX-78 doesn't even come close to matching the VF-0
This is true, but mostly because the VF-0 has absolutely no way of damaging the RX-78. You need to look at YF-19 absolute bare minimum, because it at least has a beam cannon.
>>13674021
>anti-matter force fields
Pinpoint barrier is antimatter? Since when?
>>13674236
Everything you just said is retarded.
![[HorribleSubs] Gundam Reconguista in G - 01 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_01.30_[2015.12.27_03.29.14].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/VMpjJKw.png "[HorribleSubs] Gundam Reconguista in G - 01 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_01.30_[2015.12.27_03.29.14].jpg")
>>13674237
you're right that the grimoire deploys the head openings, but the pilot does not say anything, and no one refers to minovsky particles in that scene
>>13674218
Basara dodges gravity
>>13674215
I just checked this for a giggle
The VF1A has 2 thrusters with a force of 11500kg each and a top speed of mach 3.87 in atmosphere
The gabthley in MA mode has 20 (twenty) thrusters each with a force of 12600kg and its top speed is a whopping mach 25
>>13674218
Even with the ISC, they still experience G-forces though.
They just have to push their VFs into pulling more Gs so the ISC can't keep up.
>>13674251
>just checked this for a giggle
He's talking about the reactor output. Gundam reactors are inexplicably low output compared to real-world tech, much less the absurd numbers of Macross engines.
Also G-Saviour Space Mode is god of thrust of all time. OF ALL TIME.
>>13674264
>G-Saviour Space Mode is god of thrust of all time. OF ALL TIME.
How much?
>>13674264
I know he was talking about different things, his post just made me want to check the speed of things in gundam, and then i remembered the gabthley had lmao20thrusters
F91
4 x 15530 kg34,237.78 lb
17.119 tons
6 x 4380 kg9,656.244 lb
4.828 tons
YF-29 Durandal (the best vf in macross so far?)
2 x 2,105 kN (maximum thrust in space); 2 x 1,470 kN (maximum thrust in space)
G-Saviour space mode
A WHOPPING 1008000 kg
>>13674267
despite being a standard MS that doesn't look too special, its rocket engines produce 1008000 kg
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/g-saviour/g-saviour-space.htm
that's over three times as much as the gabthley
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/z/rx-110.htm
S Gundam booster type is the god of gods though, it produces 2140000 kg of thrust
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/sentinel/msa-0011-bst.htm
supposedly the zeta plus hummingbird is even greater, but we never got numbers for that one
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/sentinel/msz-006c1-bst.htm
>>13674251
The Gundam maximum speed stats are for space and make no fucking sense.
>>13674284
You may not have noticed that a kilonewton is not comparable to a kilogram (not that either is actually a unit of thrust). Look at the fucking crazy thrust:mass ratio on VF-27, it's pushing 560,000kg worth and has 4.5x the acceleration of F91 at empty.
>>13674284
>>13674288
>>13674251
Will Macrossfags ever recover?
>>13674297
sure, the FTL lets them beat a gundam anytime
>>13674297
fuck off you crossboarding nigger
>>13674284
>kg
>kN
How do we compare when you're using different units?
>>13674295
Mate dont try and fool me, 10 newtons is one kilogram everyone knows that
I did physics once
>>13674311
>10 newtons is one kilogram
On Earth, that is.
On the moon, it'll be about 1/6 of that.
>>13674316
Even the moon knows Gundam won this arguement
>>13674248
>WAAH!!! MY PSEUDOSCIENCE IS BETTER THAN YOUR PSEUDOSCIENCE!!!
Right...
>>13674311
You know what I was thinking for some reason I was looking at the reactor output and not the propulsion part of the VF stats and skipped that whole "what the fuck a newton actually is" part, possibly because it is 5 in the fucking morning.
Anyways either way it works out to 560,000 of the the things Gundam is using, which is a fuckton when they only weigh ~10 metric tons, I guess.
>>13674327
Hey you said it, not me. I'm just glad you agree.
>>13674225
But it's thrust to weight ratio is garbage.
>>13674246
>Pinpoint barrier is antimatter? Since when?
>Discovered by accident during the first Space War, pin-point barriers are a form of energy shield based on fold technology and used on the both ships and newer fighters like the VF-19 Excalibur. A pin-point barrier is not a force field, and does not provide all-around protection. The shield is actually a fold effect, a small disc of distorted space-time that is impassable to matter or energy, and is moved around to intercept incoming enemy fire. The technology was originally developed to protect starships, but by 2040 had been miniaturized to the point where the latest fighters can mount them as well.
>>13674307
1,205 kN is equal to 122875 kg.
>>13674331
>Cannot into implications
>Still calls other people retarded
Well talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
>>13674334
Meant to say 2,105 kN is equal to 214650 kg,
>>13674337
I don't smoke pot dude lmao that must be why your arguments are so lame.
>>13674380
This thread is so fucking dumb
>>13674302
There's that shitpost again.
Gundam spaceships have nothing on Macross spaceships.
>>13674380
>"HUR DURR UR A STOOPID DRUGGIE"
That's just desperate... Oh and I don't even do drugs.
>>13674284
>>13674288
How much of that thrust is actually usable though?
No use having so much thrust when using it turns you into a fine paste in the cockpit. Does Gundam have something to deal with G-forces?
The development of VFs actually hit that problem at one point, but they remedied that by developing inertial dampening tech based off the Queadluun-Rau's inertial vector control system, which became the ISC.
>For all previous generations of variable fighters it was nearly impossible for a valkyrie to reach its full potential because there was no technology to overcome the limits of the pilot's body. The AVF Development Project in 2040 addressed this problem and it was overcome via the new Inertia Store Converter (ISC).
Who cares, the BETA destroys them both :^)
Who cares? Optimus Prime would beat both of these shit rip-offs.
>>13674380
>Well talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
>I don't smoke pot dude lmao
This is the type of joke my grandpa would come up with.
You are joking right?
There's no way you can be this retarded, is there?
>>13674462
True dat.
who cares naruto kills them both like ZOOM WOOSH
>>13674506
I remember some kid on some Mugen forum who actually believed Naruto would beat any Gundam in a fight.
>>13674236
Not him, but...
> that is assuming that fold waves aren't affected by minovsky particles
They can't be really, and we know they that because of the way the two work. Fold waves aren't even part of our dimension, they're a naturally occurring FTL particle of a sub-dimension called super dimension space that overtechnology taps in to. Minovsky particles are never suggested to be something that has spread in to other dimensions or universes and even if it had, it isn't an FTL particle so it's kind of a moot point.
> anything roughly equal or better than the RX-78's beam rifle should be one-hit-one-kill for a VF
Why? VF's have been shown to be quite tough and to tank quite a lot of damage without issue in their own shows and movies. Do you have something to actually back that up? Or are you just saying it because of caliber sizes on the guns or something silly like that?
>>13674512
I wouldn't be surprised if he could beat most, given that he's basically an even more broken G Fighter, and they could beat most mobile suits on foot without even needing a suit themselves.
>>13674533
Not to mention that I don't see any reason why a pinpoint barrier couldn't render a beam rifle shot survivable if not harmless.
>>13674536
Naruto could not beat Turn A
>>13674545
Why not? Moonlight Butterfly is literally worthless against organic opponents and that's its trump card. It can turn invisible, has a nigh impenetrable barrier and so on as well, but there's nothing really too outlandish for a shounen hero like Naruto considering he's friends with a guy who can dimension hop using his eyes and so on.
I'd say he'd have more trouble against the Devil Gundam or the [Q]ant to be honest. Also, do keep in mind I said most, not all. I'm willing to believe there are some suits he couldn't beat, but I do think he'd win against most of them.
>>13674549
>Moonlight Butterfly is literally worthless against organic opponents
Source
>>13674551
It dissolves technology, not people. How else did people survive on Earth then?
>>13674551
I...seriously? Do you just not know what the Moonlight Butterfly is or something? The entire point of the Moonlight Butterfly is that it works by breaking down inorganic matter in to something akin to sand. It reduced all technology, even including stuff as simple as swords to sand several thousand years before the tv show across the entire Earth, but left all the people because it doesn't target organic creatures. Which is why the technology on Earth is only at Edwardian Britain level during the tv show.
>>13674542
Fucking Ozma was able to defend against a large vajra firing a beam shot that was shown sinking battleships with one shot in the first episode.
>>13674556
>>13674558
I just assumed that it didnt cover the earth 100% but even if the nanomachines themselves aren't deadly then the magnetic storm should kill you
Shounen powerlvels make no sense anyways so Naruto can tank punches and moves that destroy mountains but might get hurt by an enemy holding a sword so there's no way to know if he would get hurt by a beamwhy am i arguing about naruto fighting gundams what the fuck is wrong with me where did it go so wrong
>>13674583
Why would you assume it didn't cover the Earth? If it didn't, then why would technology take so long to recover? And yea, there are still the magnetic/ionic storms to contend with, but let's be real here, someone like Naruto is going to be able to deal with those.
Also, most shounen heroes operate on some kind of qi/chi power, which is an active power. If they're not actively concentrating on increasing their power to make themselves stronger/tougher or what have you, then they're just a fairly tough but normal human with all the vulnerabilities that implies. Goku for instance could destroy the entire universe with a single punch going by Super, but can still be hurt by a laser from a gun if he's not concentrating.
MDEs
>>13674761
>missles with minovsky particles
>>13674766
> implying minovsky particles do shit to fold wave communications
> implying you couldn't fire missiles short range with even if they did given that missiles are used by several units even in early UC
>>13673869
Those after images are just paint and the gundam wing is actually faster.
Don't ask any questions.
>>13674766
>Implying they can't just fire them and set a timer for them to blow up
MDE missiles replaces reaction missiles.
They do the same job of nuking things, except better.
In the case of an MDE missile, it leaves nothing there, very efficient at clearing shit out.
>>13673515
There are specific matchups where a mobilesuit might have the upper hand, but this requires the absolute best mobile suits, usually against the weakest of Variable Fighters, or some other handicap like a "no flying" rule.
VF simple starts at a higher technology level for every except beam weaponry, and then continues to advance at a rate much father than conventional mobilesuit technology. VF speed and maneuverability is something that MS never really have a chance to catch up to, even before you take into account Fold Boosters for FTL jumps.
That said, beam weapons are a hell of a drug. If a VF, even a late gen VF, gets hit by a beam weapon and doesn't tank it with a pinpoint barrier, that VF is probably toast. That said, it is only a couple decades into their timeline that Macross has similar firepower in the form of electron beam weapons and rapid-fire anti fight lasers like what the Ghost carries, and there is nothing in gundam (not even the Turn A) that can survive a direct hit from the higher end macross weapons which explicitly destroy space itself and everything caught within that area of effect. Nanomachines don't help you regenerate damage if not even nanomachines are left.
Gundam seems to have better armor metallurgy, but that's not really going to save them. In in-setting, lunar titanium gets BTFO by beam weapons just like any other armor, and even sufficiently powerful explosive weapons could damage the Gundam. So Lunar Titanium (which has always been in short supply) might provide a solid defense against Space War One era weapons, but its pretty much obsolete by the time that VFs get the ability to put a pinpoint Barrier in front of themselves and just fly through a MS like a battering ram, coming out unharmed on the other side.
The best chance that any MS has against a VF matchup is to use some unique and gimmicky system to catch the VF off guard. Some backup weapon or weird newtype thing to get a surprise victory.
>>13674236
>Beam rifles would kill a valkyrie in one shot guys!
>>13674559
Blown. The. Fuck. Out.
>>13674559
Why did he use the VF's pin point barrier to protect the ship?
The ship should have its own pin point barrier, one that's probably stronger too.
>>13675575
He did that just so that exact webm could be used to defend valkyries against the complete bullshit in this thread.
muh beam wifles!
>>13675186
Energy conversion armour probably is at least as strong as thick Luna Titanium (well, the Armored Messiahs would blow it the fuck out), unless we assume Magella Attack cannons are wildly more powerful than modern tanks.
>>13675186
>That said, beam weapons are a hell of a drug. If a VF, even a late gen VF, gets hit by a beam weapon and doesn't tank it with a pinpoint barrier, that VF is probably toast.
Not necessarily. Max is shown here taking a few beam hits from Milia in fighter mode and he's still flying.
>>13676122
I like how Max and Milias fight in DYRL basically boils down to both of them taking turns going "SHIIIIIIIIIT" "OH FUCK OH FUCK" "NONONONO- whew. AAAAH!"
>>13674033
>the Gouf Custom's 35mm machine gun being shown destroying MP Guntanks which have lunar titanium armor.
Now that's just retarded. The MP Guntanks should never have had lunar titanium.
>>13676200
Deal with it, nerd.
>>13675016
>Those after images are just paint
lol only on build fighters, n00b.
>>13676250
Its straight up armor layers on the F-91. Still no reason to believe it'd be especially effective against Valkyries, which are much more used to fighting insanely fast moving and agile targets than mobile suits are. Also pretty unlikely that the "After-images with Mass" would fool fold wave avionics.
>>13676122
Those are lasers, not particle beams
>>13676684
She hit him with her impact cannon. That's a beam weapon.
>>13676719
No, the impact cannons are on the chest. The arm cannons are lasers.
Heavyarms>all.
Truly best mech
>>13676728
Which she fired at him and hit him.
>>13676758
Such a weak armament. Get on my level.
>>13676772
Holy shit, what is this from?
I'm newish to mecha, and have been catching up on all the older stuff first
>>13676799
Macross Frontier. No sarcasm, you may want to google up on Macross if it's new to you.
>>13676803
I'm familiar, sort of. I'll definitely look into it now though. Thanks a lot man. Once I'm done with wing (I know, I know, but I love it), I'll get started in macross.
Off topic sorry, but can anyone tell me where this Mech comes from? Saw it on /v/ earlier and Google came up with norn 9?
>>13676827
Wound you please fuck off?
>>13676842
>getting mad about someone politely asking a question, while still discussing mecha
Spot the turboautist
>>13676827
Looks like boku no fafunah
>>13673515
Kekeke, VF de la Macross mardi gras toot toot bueno las vegas vamos espaniorita les amis Gundam madre de que le gusta mucho el pene pollo diablo.
>>13676849
Fuck off retard.
Yes that is norn9
>>13676827
Fafner I think.
>>13676758
eeeh..i like Leopard Destroy better.
But then there's FAFW ReZel...or is that a Re-GZ?
Hard to tell under all the dakka.
>>13676894
No part of that still looks like a ReZel
>>13676855
Thanks for getting the joke and enjoying it as much as I did. (Even though there was a joke, I did still mean for serious discussion to take place though)
>>13676915
Nevermind, I JUST saw the MA mode Rezel in there.
>>13676915
vamos, madre de es el pablo casa dios de la bueno senor Gundam. Si?
>>13677188
Chinchilla fajita Tijuana mi casa es tsu casa beef burrito telemundo mardi gras, mi compadre.
Macross cannon (SDF-1) Vs Colony laser.
Go!
>>13677472
one's bigger and the other is faster
Lurk moar newfag; this shit gets discussed all the fucking time and the answer is always the same (hint: not Mobile Suits).
>>13677472
One fucks space itself and annihilates everything in its path(And its also a ship that is armed with lots of nukes), the other is just a huge beam of energy that was once blocked by psychic magic.
>>13674202
Remember that time Basara got an entire group of militant Meltrandi fighters lusting after his cock?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYHGDEl-zIc
Usually, the most common reaction would be:
-VF outclasses MS, except maybe late-UC like V2, or Q-nta (?) and moonlight butterflies
I'm kinda interested how a VF would fare against a Mortar Headd, actually. Some of those can fly, and have some bullshit specs.
>>13675575
Because he wanted to look like a big hero in front of the girl he's trying to fuck.
No, seriously.
>>13677842
That and pinpoint barrier isn't available in ship mode.
>>13677876
That honestly doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you think about it.
>>13677879
See: None at all.
>>13677879
In ship mode the power system is routed to the fold engines and in robot mode it drives the pinpoint barrier, I guess.
Originally they discovered the pinpoint barrier because the SDF-1's fold system fucked off on its own and the internal connections were broken (which is also why it had to transform to use the main cannon)
>>13677933
But how did the pin point barrier work on the SDF-1 with the fold system gone if it's a system that ties into the fold systems to work?
>>13677949
Honestly I would have to rewatch it to remember the particulars but there was a definite connection between "we can't fold back to Earth" and "oh hey we have to turn into a humongous robot and have this hilarious trackball controlled defense system now"
>>13677949
The EX-Gear's ISC system uses dimensional distortions too, but EX-Gear can't fold.
How do I put this... my car has a combustion engine in it. A gun uses combustion to fire. But I can't drive a gun. Or it's like how the YF-29 has fold crystals built into the frame, but it can't use them to fold through space.
Both the pinpoint barrier and the fold engines use the same principles, but they apply them in completely different ways. The fold engines literally disappeared when they jumped. The pinpoint barrier system didn't. But that doesn't mean they can repurpose the pinpoint barrier as a replacement fold engine.
>>13677980
What I was more so saying was that I thought they required the fold drive as an energy source (to fold energy) to power the barriers, and the reason they couldn't do a full barrier and only pin point was because there wasn't enough energy? I thought this was actually said in the show? Am I mixing up macross and robotech it's been a long time since I've seen both.
>>13673515
Depends on who the writer(s) is/are.
>>13677961
>attempt fold from within earth's gravity well
>fold engine jumps a lot farther than the rest of the ship
>weird energy field sitting where the fold engine used to be
>oh, hey, we can make this shit move around
>this will protect (small portions of) the ship
>oh, hey, we can make this big enough to cover the whole ship
>i accidentally the Ontario Quadrant
>>13678007
>Ontario Quadrant
Get out.
>>13674482
for gundam, maybe (but they can put better fight than TSFs).Macross is JUST BLOW MY PLANET UPor conquer with the love of song :^)
>>13677993
Was it something like that?
In any case, I assume that projecting a pinpoint barrier uses up a relatively minuscule amount of energy compared to a fold jump.
>>13674533
Minovsky particles combined with newtypes and psychoframes have been used for all kinds of crazy hacks. This includes psychic communication, blocking beam weapons using thought and even stuff as big as the axis shock at the end of CCA and in Unicorn. Against this kind of fairly dust, it's not the least bit unreasonable for there to be a possibility that it could also mess with fold waves.
As for the power of beam weapons in Gundam, I'm bringing it up because the RX-78's beam rifle really did fuck shit up. No mobile suit or mobile armor could take a direct hit from it without an I-Field and they initially thought it was a ship mounted gun. If you can one hit kill mobile suits and mobile armor, you should be able to one hit kill VF's as well.
But yeah... Whole thread is silly and better suited to 6-year-olds arguing in a sand pit.
>>13678498
To be fair, VFs get one hit kill by almost everything in their own universe already.
There's a lot of really powerful guns in Macross-verse. The gatling gun of the VF-1 could punch through ship hulls, the red large Vajra grunt can kill ships in one shot(Same shot that Ozma took with his VF-25's pinpoint barrier, by the way. That shot got blocked by PPB and still took out half of his armor pack and injure Ozma, that's how strong the large red Vajra's anti-ship cannon is), VFs get chewed up by a lot of weapons despite their energy conversion armor and PPB.
>>13678520
>VF 1 gets destroyed by Bitrai with a pipe
>>13678498
>If you can one hit kill mobile suits and mobile armor, you should be able to one hit kill VF's as well.
By that logic the VF's gunpods should be able to tear apart any MS like it was made of paper.
>>13678531
Except he didn't defeat them with a pipe. He just straight up wrestled them. He only defeated Hikaru by impaling his VF against some debris.
>>13678538
He destroyed Max's VF with a pipe
>>13678498
> Minovsky particles combined with newtypes and psychoframes have been used for all kinds of crazy hacks
That's a very different case to standard minovsky interference and is more about the newtype shenanigans than about the minovsky particles and let's not pretend otherwise. Also, while Macross doesn't have newtypes it does have culture causing a whole lot of weird stuff and if any one starts fucking with newtype powers during the battle their opponent is probably going to break out some culture in retaliation and have just as much success if fucking shit up right back at them.
>>13678543
You need to watch the show again, friend.
>>13678543
Are you retarded? Did you forget the scene where Max sneaks back in wearing a zentradi uniform? How did he do that if his VF was destroyed? Shut up.
>>13678443
Like I said, It's been awhile since I've seen either series. I watched DYRL again the other night but that scene is not in it since it starts past when the fold takes place.
That's what I remember took place*But I could be wrong), I also remember what I think you said about them saying they could harvest the remaining sparkling fold energy to make the pin point barrier. But I think they went on to say more stuff about fold tech what were talking about etc etc. I may be way off though.
Haha, Hikaru Ichijo in the Rx-78 vs Amuro Ray in the VF-1S. I wonder who would win.
>>13676827
That's from Fafner Exodus which is the sequel to Fafner dead agressor.
You NEED to watch Dead Agressor first before heading into Exodus if you plan on watching Fafner
>>13681177
Depends, if early series it'll be close but late 0079 or CCA Amuro would wreck him
>>13681177
Amuro because the VF-1 is a better machine.
>>13681262
This.
>>13681262
The gundams armor is impenetrable against munitions like that. Some people were arguing earlier about how the 120mm zaku cannon couldn't hurt the gundam so why should the 35mm gau-11? I was on the fence for a bit but I was thinking about it and zaku were able to take out even battleships like they were nothing with the 120mm cannons. So now I think the gundam could tank the gau no problem.
>>13681177
The Gundam has a manual that allowed the complete newbie Amuro to pilot it, great armor, and a gun that kills anything despite its limited amount of shots, and the pilot only has to learn the controls for 1 mode.
The VF-1 doesn't have a manual lying around, and even if the manual is available, the VF-1 requires some experience of flying planes, has the same set of controls for 3 modes and it can't take hits from weapons despite its energy conversion armor.
>>13681285
VF-1 has a 55mm gun.
Note that the VF-1 could also kill ships with its 55mm gatling gun.
>>13681285
It fires non-standard ammunition at near railgun velocities. You literally don't know what you're talking about.
Just noticed/remembered something while watching some clips from DYRL. Borg dolzola(Or whatever the fortress leader is called) specifically states in the beginning that his creators implanted him with a directive that were he to come across culture he was to immediately fuck off and leave it alone or face destruction...to which he immediately shrugs off and continues his plan to continue space war one.
That's either some really lazy writing or some really REALLY bad memory.
>>13681571
Or he just didn't believe the warning. His mistake.
>>13681571
He wanted to use the humans' ability to fix shit and their nukes, the warnings be damned.
>>13681285
See Gouf Custom shredding luna titanium with a 35mm gun. Caliber doesn't mean anything.
>>13681708
Man I have such a hard time believing that gun is 35mm though, looking at the barrel size vs the 120mm cannon, the 35mm is larger. (animation) .
>>13674100
I think the issue is the ammo capacity. Doesn't seem like there's enough ammo in that thing
>>13681815
Takes very little time for a gatling gun's barrel to heat up, that's why they fire in short bursts. I seem to recall scenes where there are long periods of sustained fire but I guess there could be some kind of over-technology involved in keeping the entire mechanism okay.
Haven't seen any Macross, but I heard FTL being mentioned.
So is it teleportation? Or what? Cause there are mobile suits that can teleport.
>>13681850
Hey man, don't derail my derailed spanish gundam vs macross thread!
Besides, there are no macross suits that can simultaneously teleport, are there any mobile suits?
>>13681856
Uh, 00 Raiser and Qan[t]?
Raiser in Trans-am, and Qan[t] or ELS Qan[t] aren't really specified.
But the Qan[t] teleported across galaxies, so why not?
Turn A is told to be able to teleport as well.
>>13681856
fake spanish** that was the most important part.
bueno bueno bueno bueno.
>>13681850
>teleportation
It's just good ol' FTL.
The early fold drive worked by surround your ship in a bubble and moving the bubble through another dimension or something.
The later ones, like the ones in Frontier opens a gate-like portal-ish thing and they enter the portal to do the same thing. Before the improved fold drive in Frontier, there was fold faults that doesn't allow them to just fly through and causes them to slow down. Then they improved it and the new ones bust through fold faults like its nothing.
The Vajra doesn't care about fold faults, they perfect their biological fold drive long ago and each of their units can fold and defold anywhere in an instant, though they still need to open the gate to do so.
>>13681859
Legit, I forgot that the turn A could teleport as well.
But I guess we already knew that turn A could top any VF.
I hate to say it too, but I think strike freedom w/ meteor would stand a pretty good chance vs sdf-1 too.
>>13681850
>>13681856
It's FTL travel. They open a portal in space and end up somewhere else. You could fold from Mars to Earth and arrive in maybe 5 minutes. Here's a scene of ships and Valkyries folding into battle. And all Valkyries can fold using a fold drive.
>>13681850
Macross has a variety of superdimensional technologies, "Superdimensional" in this case meaning 'technology for the manipulation of space itself'.
Their FTL (Space Folding) works by take space around you, and a space of equivalent size where you want to be, and swapping them. Anything in that area of effect comes along for the ride, and anyone so astronomically unlucky as to be exactly where you Fold to gets a free trip to where you started.
Frontier, for some reason, turns this into a much lamer portal/wormhole sort of visual effect. There isn't really an explanation given for why it looks like that now, other than aesthetics.
This isn't the only space manipulation tech they have. The Macross Cannon is basically an intentionally shitty weaponized version of the same technology, which they used to designate a large area in front of the ship and then just tear that space right the fuck apart. Space itself is destroyed, which absolutely fucks anything that was there at the time and releases enough energy as a side effect that even ships nearby tend to get exploded by the splash damage.
The flip side of this is the Pinpoint Barrier, which is actually a small region of space where space is folded in on itself over and over and over. This gets used as a shield.
How? Well, fold up a piece of paper a bunch of times. Now, without unfolding that paper, try to draw a straight line across it without unfolding it. You can't, because even if you draw on one side of the folded up paper and then flip over and continue on the back, the paper that is inside of the folds you can reach from here, so you just sort of stop.
Macross quickly realizes that a functionally unbreakable shield is also an unstoppable weapon. Putting a pinpoint barrier on the front of something and then ramming that into an enemy ship fast enough punches through pretty much anything (because any physical object is going to yield before the indestructable pinpoint barrier in an impact).
>>13682084
>There isn't really an explanation given for why it looks like that now, other than aesthetics.
Probably a modified version of the original. The original took a chunk of the island along with the ship.
Moving everything around your ship in a radius is kind of dangerous, and to create a fold bubble in a radius around something as huge as a colony fleet is probably gonna be really costly energy wise.
Perhaps they create the space for the fold in subspace and then move themselves into that space through the portal.
>>13682084
Even 7 changed how folds looked. In 7 they just zap out of space.
>>13682084
>>13682103
>>13682112
I recall Plus showing it as a wormhole effect, too.
>>13682112
Except 7 clearly still operated on the old rules, because Max uses debris that got swapped with City 7 to figured out where they folded to, because it was rock from the place they swapped with. They make it a cleaner looking effect, but whatever.
Frontier on the other hand defineably cannot have the same thing happen as a result of fold. Which is a weird change to make without any given reason, because the way that space folding works was sort of really fucking important to the plot of SDF (and then came up again in 7 as I described).
>>13682134
Alto did hitch a ride with a vajra ship as it was folding in the movie. Same with Michael in the TV series after the Gallia IV incident.
>>13682116
Correct and when they exited a fold particles were shown trailing behind them similar to Frontier.
>>13682084
>This isn't the only space manipulation tech they have. The Macross Cannon is basically an intentionally shitty weaponized version of the same technology, which they used to designate a large area in front of the ship and then just tear that space right the fuck apart. Space itself is destroyed, which absolutely fucks anything that was there at the time and releases enough energy as a side effect that even ships nearby tend to get exploded by the splash damage.
...Odd, thats how Gridfire EXACTLY works in Iain M. Banks The Culture books.
PROTOCULTURE CAN'T MELT GUNDANIUM BEAMS
>>13685526
The scifi genres borrows ideas, more news at 11.
>>13685526
Oh yeah?
Well, did Ian M. Banks have a group of evil space vampires get defeated by a group of mercenaries using the power of rock music?
Fuck no he didn't.
>>13687372
Convergent literalism more likely, given that it's almost certain that Banks didn't know about Macross and Macross came first. They both needed sci-fi guns for a story and they wanted them to be powerful and cool and both hit on the same idea.
>>13682084
>This isn't the only space manipulation tech they have. The Macross Cannon is basically an intentionally shitty weaponized version of the same technology, which they used to designate a large area in front of the ship and then just tear that space right the fuck apart. Space itself is destroyed, which absolutely fucks anything that was there at the time and releases enough energy as a side effect that even ships nearby tend to get exploded by the splash damage.
I though that was just certain ones, like the Quarter classes, and the original Macross Cannon and some of the other bigger ones like the Frontier's were just really big, really horribly powerful cannons?
>>13687360
But we can.
>>13687624
The Quarter's cannon is actually significantly weaker, which is understandable since it is a fraction of the size.
The Macross Cannon, and by extension the Frontier's, just absolutely destroy space. This looks a hell of a lot like a solid wave of explodium coming at you, because that's just what happens when you destroy space: shits gets fucked (explosions) as everything has to sort itself out.
The Quarter's version of the gun just twists up space really bad, occasionally to the point of breaking it at the very end, but having torn apart anything physically occupying that space anyway. For the vast majority of targets that is just as lethal, and requires much less power. Easier to see happening with the naked eye, though.
