Was he right about humans being naturally evil and always hurting each other?
Do you agree with his solution to wipe out everyone?
>>13587058
He was wrong. People are evil shits a lot of the time, but they're also genuinely nice and selfless a lot of the time too. Even selfless enough that they sacrifice themselves (and their chance to pass on their own genes) in order to save others - which is a bit of an aberration in nature and contradictory to the normal rules of evolution. There's theories as to why it arose as a behavior, but it's notable that it's not just humans that do it and animals act selfless for the greater good of their own species at times too. If he was so sick of life he should have just bitten a bullet and taken himself out of the race. Taking everyone else along with you is just being a dick.
He was right only because everyone in CE is either fucking insane or hate their enemy so much that they want to wipe them out, which fits nicely with what he said, and Destiny later proved him right anyway.
Kira didn't refute him at all in their fight anyway
>>13587058
He was right about CE humanity, sure. Shit, Destiny straight up proves he was right.
>>13587123
>>13587147
real human beans
>>13587058
>Was he right about humans being naturally evil and always hurting each other?
>Do you agree with his solution to wipe out everyone?
Maybe if I was a fourteen-year-old edgelord.
Rau's "motives" are little more than a temper tantrum.
>>13587174
The thing is, in the context of CE, Rau is right. The entire universe is happy to wage a genocidal race war at the drop of a hat. He's also right in that Kira has nothing going for him besides being the Ultimate Coordinator.
Shit, man. Coordination is a big divide between the have and the have-nots. Imagine if the wealthy weren't just rich, they were hyperintelligent and superhuman. Things would get ugly, fast.
Rau might've been ranting, but he wasn't wrong. Like, after the whole series, it's not hard to see his point. Besides, Kira owes him fifty dollars for killing Fllay. Rau helped take out the trash, and he didn't even get a pat on the back! Talk about ingratitude.
>>13587058
Well, in a sense, he wasn't wrong. If everyone is dead then there's no one left to feel pain or sadness. Or, similarly, if there are two groups that cause each other pain and if one of them disappears completely then so will that pain. Of course, that doesn't account for pain during the genocide itself, which is a different matter entirely.
>>13587811
>magine if the wealthy weren't just rich, they were hyperintelligent and superhuman. Things would get ugly, fast.
That's more cyberpunk than gundam but our real world might become like that over the course of the 21st century as genetic engineering and "designer babies" become more and more common and parents start demaning not just perfect looks from their unborn offspring but also perfect intelligence and skills and no risk of disease.
>>13587832
If you think about it, all of human history has revolved around how - when you really get down to it - we're all equal, you know? I mean, it doesn't matter if you're King, a CEO, or a beggar. If someone shoves a knife into your ribs, you die.
If that paradigm changes, a lot of shit happens. It's like:
> "I've been put on this Earth to rule over you."
> "Prove it."
> "Sure! I am faster, stronger, and more intelligent than you. I have twice your natural lifespan. Also, I can lift and throw a truck - All that, just from being born as who I am. Technically, we're barely the same species."
It's like Exalted. Why are the Solar Exalted the god-kings? Well, because they can back that shit up. Every last one is an ubermensch, and he can prove it.
>>13587849
except the Solars got rekt
>>13587855
It took nearly every other Exalted working together to kill off their current incarnations. And Creation went to pot without them. Face it: Creation cannot function without the Solar Exalted. It's like trying to complain about gravity.
In fact, I'd argue that Solars are egalitarian, because technically any human has the potential to become a Solar. (Also, Solar Half-castes are pathetic and not really a thing.) If Kings genuinely had a divine right, the world would be cowed and servile forever.
It's one thing to boast that you're superior. It's another to prove it.
>>13587832
In this case, biopunk actually.
>>13587849
Well it's not completely a done deal. Procreation and further passing of genes is a problem. If the perfect genes can't be passed through from one generation of designer babies to the next then they would both lack a biological reason for superiority and retaining supremacy would be a matter of retaining control over genetic engineering technology.
If, on the other hand, perfect genes are passable through the generations than there's problem of extremely limited dating pool, inevitable incest and also, maybe most importantly, rape as weapon of the biological lower class. If their perfect genes are passable than all a lower bio class women would have to do is have a baby by a higher class man and her baby, too, would be ubermensch.
There's also the issue of intelligence vs wisdom - just because average IQ of the ruling class would be 180 doesn't mean they'd stop being human so unless they, collectively, as a group. had the will of quite literally Spartans to rule over the subjugated masses they'd still be fundamentally human and, thus, fundamentally suspect to all the same temptations and hubris. At worst (for us) they'd be like One Piece Tenryuubito but with Admiral tier powers.
If humans really had no compassion, we wouldn't have made it this far, considering the dangerous shit we have access to.
>>13587881
>If humans really had no compassion
Isn't obvious counter argument to that: fear? The main reason why we never went MAD is because no leader, no matter how insanely corrupt dictator, would want to a) die b) have his country blown up to bits (because then what would he rule) and c) have earth blown up to bits (because then where would he live)
>>13587884
Considering how many individuals on this planet are willing to accept death for the sake of their beliefs, I'm sure there must be more to it than that.
>>13587893
It's simple, really.
>>13587893
Humans in position of leadership and power have far more to lose than lower grunts.
>>13587058
Rau full of shit because we later saw he was a sociopathic murderer ever since he was a little kid when he killed Al and Mwu's mother and burned their house down. Well before his clone issues gave him trouble.
He's just a naturally evil person, and was trying to justify his mass murder. Just like how the only reason things had gotten so bad was because of his personal double dealings with both sides.
Why could he just get laid? His brother did just that.
>>13587931
Maybe he had no penis.
Maybe that's where all the omnicidal rage came from.
>>13587909
So fear is reserved only for the privileged?
>>13587943
There are more factors than that. Such as, for one thing, knowing an apocalypse could happen in the first place. Even among the first world nations it's not like every citizen had all the necessary info. An illiterate farmer in third world country, and up until recently most of the world was third world, wouldn't know what nukes are let alone to fear them.
Furthemore, democracies are rare. Even today most of the world isn't democratic and that was much more true during the Cold War, which is also when there was the highest chance of nuclear war. In a totalitarian regime the feelings of people don't matter and feelings of the dictator or of the military junta create the laws and the policies of the country.
>>13587924
Ehh, he's more of an enabler than a direct cause of the war's escalation. In the beginning of the war he was only influential as a skilled pilot, that hardly has any power politically. When he gave NJC tech to the EA, it was the EA that decided to start slinging nukes rather than fix up their crippled energy economy.
>>13587931
He was a butthurt virgin, that's why he killed Flay. He was mad that a 15 year old girl lost her virginity before a 28 year old autist with a mask.
>>13587811
>The entire universe is happy to wage a genocidal race war at the drop of a hat.
There are plenty of not crazy people in CE.
>>13587849
Coordinators aren't super human. At best they are Captain America if Captain America wasn't bullshit. In a case like Elijah Kiel he's just unusually good looking and has no particular physical advantages while a Natural like Rena Imelia has better MS control skills than most Coordinators.
The actual gap between them is exaggerated because of racism and nationalism, they aren't meant to be separated and it's sort of implied they were just supposed to kick start the gene pool. (part of the setting that's unfortunately not mentioned in the show or often is that by early CE there was a large percentage of the population that couldn't create healthy offspring due to heavy terrorist use of biochemical and radioactive weapons) That's why the 3rd generation sterility thing existsand why Athrun is supposed to fuck Cagalli
>>13588048
>part of the setting that's unfortunately not mentioned in the show or often is that by early CE there was a large percentage of the population that couldn't create healthy offspring due to heavy terrorist use of biochemical and radioactive weapons
Where's that from?
>>13588048
>>13588056
Such a thing is never mentioned in the world-building, at least not on Gundamofficial.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110629142040/http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/timeline.html
>>13588083
>Increasing ethnic and religious strife soon led to a third world war, known as the Reconstruction War, in which the world's nations were merged and reorganized. The conflict continued to escalate until nuclear weapons were employed on the frontlines of central Asia's Kashmir region
>the Type S influenza virus spreads throughout the world. Disease and war produce massive casualties.
Basically the end of AD and start of CE is characterized by a lot of ethnic and religious terrorism building up to a full blown war where a lot of bad shit is flying around and having a significant impact on the healthiness of Earth's population and gene pool.
>>13588083
That's a fucking lot of backstory shit to just cast aside and never bother to bring up.
>>13588245
It's pretty normal if you're setting out a universe to be used in multiple future works. There's certain things in there that come up in MSV, Astray, games, or even drama CDs or whatever.
He did nothing wrong.
>>13587123
>>13587147
>>13587158
Doesn't Stargazer contradict him?
>>13588234
Lots of people died for sure, but it doesn't say humanity started producing damaged offspring due to lingering radiation and biological issues tainting the CE gene pool.
>>13588345
I don't think you need to be specifically told that nuking China will have do bad things.
>>13588347
No shit, but it's not the same have do bad things he was talking about.
>>13588351
Well that version of it is in Cosmic Era Mechanic & World which is relatively recent, but it's consistent with the existing backstory.
However you look at it George Glenn was always born in a world ravaged by war and disease and he outright says he was supposed to "coordinate evolution". Immunity to Type S influenza was probably one of the big deals at the time.
>>13587952
>In a totalitarian regime the feelings of people don't matter
But on the other hand in a democracy the feelings of the people do matter, and that creates its own set of problems. People collectively are fickle, impatient and reactionary. They'll vote a leader out in a second if they don't appease their base animal instincts, no matter how foolish. And so democratic leaders will go right on ahead with policies enacted not because they're smart or effective, but because they satisfy the animal hind brains of their voters. It's a popularity contest, which means the winner is whichever greasy slimy bastard can lie most convincingly.
They're still accountable, which is at least something, but it's a double edged sword. Public opinion can sway really bad moves.
>>13588048
>Coordinators aren't super human
And then SEEDfags will argue that it is perfectly normal that Kira survived this cause coordinator
Being able to survive extreme heat while shit around you melts or get fucked up makes you super human
>>13587952
> Even today most of the world isn't democratic
123 out 192 countries in the world at present are democracies. How democratic you want to say they are is another matter, but most of the world currently calls itself democratic. And really, if you're going to start casting aspersions about how democratic a given democracy is, the US is the first place you should be starting.
>>13588694
Ive seen a lot of excuses for that one, but it's never because he's a coordinator.
>>13588710
That's the explanation that is given for surviving the heat and other shit when the cockpit didn't. Otherwise it is just bullshit. The other bit is people say a blast shield never seen apart from a side material help take some of the blast
>>13588694
No, it's perfectly normal that he survived that because Astray shows that the cockpit was only damaged after Lowe took Kira out.
>>13588891
It's seems no where I can read the 1st astray manga.
>>13588891
Leaving information to extra material is a terrible way of telling the story.
>>13588891
So it got shot up ad destroyed, he was then able to get Kira out, and only then was shot at again?
That's reatded
>>13587174
He was a eugenics byproduct gone wrong. CE humanity like Al da Flagga created Rau, why wouldn't he view that universe's humanity as shit? He had limited time left and was dying painfully in his. Jesse existence. Kira himself is another example of humanity's folly.
The best bet for CE was that Rau succeeded. There'd be survivors even with Patrick and Azrael's attacks so the remnants would have to find a means to pull through and realize their petty slights are for nothing.
>>13589081
> Kira himself is another example of humanity's folly
How exactly? Him being a shitty character who the plot bends around doesn't make the science that led to him bad.
> so the remnants would have to find a means to pull through and realize their petty slights are for nothing
People would have to have realized that to lead to the setting as it is in the first place. You don't get to even a present day real life technological level and civilization with a LOT of cooperation. And the humans in CE are beyond that with quantum computers, fusion power and large political power blocs controlling the majority of the planet. Even leaving out the mobile suits and colonies which were all coordinators, that is already a lot of cooperation going on. Especially in Orb where both coordinators and humans live in peace. As they did on Kira's home colony. And as they did in the Three Ships Alliance.
And nothing stopped a good bit of that cooperation from going awry and resulting in several near genocidal wars.
>>13588976
>Leaving information to extra material is a terrible way of telling the story.
It was a deliberate manga marketing move. Newtype magazine even told readers that one part of the SEED story is only explained in the manga. And this was before the SEED anime ever aired.
>>13589207
Regardless, even anime has to have some internal consistency. I remember back in 2003 when I saw how Kira magically ended up with Lacus, I stopped watching SEED. It was the last straw and the biggest fuck you to audiences.
>>13588342
stargazer contradicted most of what both series tried to push for in terms of themes
>>13589207
That doesn't validate it. People who didn't, or can't, read the manga are essentially fucked since they won't know what happened.
>>13589235
>That doesn't validate it. People who didn't, or can't, read the manga are essentially fucked since they won't know what happened.
And that amounts to people who watch fansubs. And like it or not that isn't Bandai's problem.
>>13589221
>. I remember back in 2003 when I saw how Kira magically ended up with Lacus, I stopped watching SEED. It was the last straw and the biggest fuck you to audiences.
All the Japanese audiences know what was happening. Sorry but you were not suppose to be legally able to watch the show at the time.
>>13589246
It amounts to people who don't read manga, and that can include people who buy blurays/dvds or watched the show on TV. That's irrespective of them being Japanese, American or whatever else.
You're right about one thing, it isn't Bandai's problem if I, or anyone else, didn't like their show because of that. However, it does taint their business if people were to view their shows negatively because it relied on a separate product to tell the entire story, and at that point it becomes a very big problem for them. I don't know enough about the anime/manga market to comment accurately on this, but as a person who bought the Seed dvds, my comments are a lot more legitimate than whatever >>13589250 thinks.
tl;dr pic related is Bandai and Sunrise, and I'm butthurt.
>>13589117
>How exactly?
He was referring that the whole Ultimate Coordinator project itself (which ended up tying to Al da Flaga as he paid Kira's father to make clones of him in secret, and the money ended up funding the project)
>>13589012
Heat soak.
>>13589268
Astray manga was released in North America at the same time as the show too though.
>>13588245
>That's a fucking lot of backstory shit to just cast aside and never bother to bring up.
Not really. Generally you only say or explain shit that matters for the immediate story, there's no point of going at length about the entire history of the world you created and, more often than not, doing that would just be really bad story telling.
But all of it is important because it influences everything in the more limited story you're telling within that universe, so it evens out anyway.
>>13587058
Human beings are naturally flawed, and tend to turn towards violence
Rau's self loathing led him to decide humanity had to be exterminated.
Durandal wanted to enforce an ordered caste system to keep humanity from self-harm.
Lacus just killed everyone who disagreed with her.
>>13589117
>Especially in Orb where both coordinators and humans live in peace. As they did on Kira's home colony. And as they did in the Three Ships Alliance.
That's not a good solution, though. Coords are naturally and inherently better than humans which means that in an open, free market system with no discrimination every coord would emerge as upper class and upper middle class person hogging all the wealth, resources, university positions, good jobs, top positions, doctorates and so on and so on for themselves and humans wouldn't be able to compete.
You can't do "fair, free market" stuff with two groups if one of the groups is inherently strictly superior to the other one.
>>13589857
Even if you want to take that view of Lacus, she's still by far the sanest option.
